Down to what temps can you take a NeoAir with a Gossamer Gear 3/8 in. CCF Thinlight pad?

Also should the CCF pad be above the NeoAir or below it for max benefit?

My own experience (remember that individuals differ a lot in sleep styles and body "thermostats") is that I absolutely FROZE at 18*F with a 1/8" GG CCF pad and the NeoAir. When lying on my back, I was nice and warm on top but my back muscles were shivering! I wouldn't go out below freezing without at least a 3/8" CCF pad to supplement the NeoAir. 1/2" might be better. This of course negates most of the weight saving of the NeoAir over insulated air pads.

I got cold with the NeoAir any time the temp got below 40*F. I was fine with a 1/8" CCF pad down to freezing (the lowest I had it before this last trip).

During the several hours it took me to warm up enough to go to sleep, I did some trial and error with the NeoAir and the CCF pad. I started out with the CCF pad underneath the NeoAir and later moved it on top. It was a bit warmer with the CCF pad on top. Later I tried putting more air in the NeoAir. Again, it was a little warmer (probably having to do with the gizmos that supposedly reflect heat back at you being a little more deployed). However, the pad then was too hard to be comfortable and "bucked me off" every time I turned over.

Since I often camp when it's below freezing, I have gone back to my POE Insulmat Max Thermo (ancestor of the Ether Thermo/Ether 6). It is far more comfortable, takes me down to 20* F without supplement and has been down to 15* quite comfortably with a 1/8" torso length CCF pad.

Unfortunately, by the time I could get a NeoAir last spring, there was no more freezing weather to test it in. Also, I was obviously too focused on the weight savings. It was a case of comfort while sleeping vs. comfort of carrying an eight-ounce lighter pack. Comfort while sleeping has won out in the end!

You are basically going to have to test NeoAir and CCF pad combinations yourself to see how low you can get and still be comfortable. It definitely will vary with the individual.

Edited by hikinggranny on 11/01/2009 15:55:51 MST.

EJ I've had my Neo Air down to 32 degrees with my Marmot Atom 40 degree bag and Merino wool base layer and no other pad, but I'm a warm sleeper. I want to see how low and can go with this set up but the weather just hasn't been that cold every time we go out.

Edited by jumpbackjack on 11/01/2009 16:59:18 MST.

Hi Mary,

That was very helpful, thanks very much. I looked at the POE Ether 6 right after I read your comments on the NeoAir/Ether on another thread. I should check it out again. My original thinking was to go with a lighter pad like the NeoAir for 3 seasons, and then for winter with the Downmat + 3/8 CCF pad (CCF for extra warmth, backup in case of puncture and use as a long sit pad). Might also add a 1/8 CCF pad to the NeoAir in 3 seasons for backup, and also use it as a sit pad.

Temperature aside, why do you think you find the POE pad more comfortable? Is it the vertical orientation of the baffles?

Do you find you flop off your Ether if you blow it up all the way as you did with the NeoAir?

In the case of sleep comfort, we’ll put a good night’s sleep ahead of a few ounces saved weight. Trips are far less enjoyable when you don’t get enough sleep.

I also wish we could go with a 26 in. pad for winter and summer, but too tight for both our 3 season tent (Big Sky Revolution 3P with a tapered 46 in. wide foot section) and winter tent (Allak at 51 in. width).

The vertical baffles of the POE pad do have something to do with the comfort. The outside tubes keep me from rolling off the pad and also hold up my arms when I'm lying on my back. I can blow the POE pad up about halfway and it's just right--my hips and shoulders are off the ground when I'm on my side, the mat is soft enough not to cause pressure pains on said joints, and above all my spine is parallel to the ground when I'm on my side, avoiding back issues. Plus the POE pad is well insulated, taking me down to the low 20's F comfortably without supplement and into the mid-teens (as low as I've had it) with a torso-length 1/8" CCF pad on top. Once down into the 20's F, the weight savings of the NeoAir disappear because of the thick supplemental pad needed to stay warm.

Any air pad blown up all the way is like sleeping on a brick, IMHO. I would never do this.

With the NeoAir, I never could hit the "sweet spot" between the pad's being too hard and my hips/shoulders hitting the ground, and I tended to roll off it a lot. I tried really hard to adjust to it, but it never really happened.

Your Mileage, of course, May Vary.

Edited by hikinggranny on 11/01/2009 21:27:52 MST.

Mary, my experience with the NeoAir was very similar to yours. Plus, I experienced the lower back pain that a couple of other BPL members reported. I'm finding the Ether 6 to be a lot more comfortable.

Mary and Dondo, thanks for the good advice. Right now we're leaning toward the Stephenson DAM 60 which has a mummy shape, 24 in. wide at top and 18 in. at the foot end, 70 in. long, and which is supposed to be as warm as the Downmat 9 and weighs only 19 oz.

The POE Ether 6 would also be a runner up. Think we'd both prefer it and the DAM 60 to the NeoAir based on what we've read. We've lightened up everywhere else and we can "spend" some of our saved ounces on a better night's sleep.

I love my Max Thermo /Ether Thermo 6. Worked great down to 23, although I have to admit the ground wasn't frozen.

Edited by skinewmexico on 11/02/2009 00:15:31 MST.

Thanks Joe. Yeah it does make a big difference when you're sleeping on an ice box...

If I were going to do winter camping (as opposed to October), I'd want a DAM too!!!

I am SOOOOO glad I returned my Neo-Air regular to REI last spring and went back to my 10 year old, patched Thermarest Lite regular.

This summer in the southern Sierra Nevada we experienced nights in an 8,000 ft. valley in the mid 20s. No cold problem with the Lite pad but I know there would have been with the Neo-Air. With the Pro Lite regular only a few ounces heavier than the Neo-Air AND being warmer and self-inflating why even bother with a Neo-Air???

Perhaps the Neo-Air attempts to answer a question nobody asked...


Eric

I haven't used the NeoAir, but I will echo the experience of others that the Thermo6 pads seem to work really well, even below freezing. I picked up a pair of the Eco Thermo6 (the bamboo/environmentally friendly version) pads on REI clearance recently, and the coldest I've tested is the high 20s -- and I was warm and happy in a 35-degree bag, wearing only a thin wool t-shirt, silk pajama pants, wool socks and hat. I don't sleep particularly warm, and so I was very impressed with how well the Eco Thermo held heat and insulated from the ground. I'm looking forward to colder weather camping to test the full range for these pads.

I didn't carry a thermometer so I don't know the temps but probably low 20s as the ground was frozen solid.

I was warm on a neoair with a 1/8" thinlight pad underneath it. I used the thinlight for protection rather than warmth.

When I first got on the pad it was a little chilly but warmed up within a few minutes. I assume this is do to the air within the pad getting warmed up by my body heat.

I would guess I could get into the low teens with a 3/8" pad.

I too have used the NeoAir with a 1/8" thinlight pad underneath the Neo using a 22 oz homemade quilt and was fine above 12,000 feet in the Sierra's. Here is the report:

Headed into the Sierra's this past weekend and spent four days at or above 12,000. Four day forecast was for lows to be around 26°. VERY HAPPY to report that the quilt and Neoair was able to keep me warm enough to sleep in MUCH colder temps then forecasted!!!!!
Breakdown of the 3 nights

Night one: Temp recorded down to 18°

Neoair Medium size mattress
1/8 Gossamer Gear Thinlight pad, cut to 40" length, under the Neoair. Nothing else under my legs for insulation.
The quilt in my Cuben/Momentum bivy.
Wearing thin silk bottoms, Cloudveil pants, light socks, Thin long-sleeved shirt, BPL Cocoon pullover, lightweight gloves, and fleece stocking hat.

My feet got cold midway though the night. I wasn't expecting the temp to drop so low and my toes were definitely cold. The rest of my body was nice and warm.

Night two: Temp recorded down to 5° !!!! All time low for me and the two others I was with!

Neoair Medium size mattress
1/8 Gossamer Gear Thinlight pad, cut to 40" length, under the Neoair. Gossamer Gear pack under my legs for insulation added now to keep the toes warm.
The quilt in my home made Cuben/Momentum bivy.
Wearing thin silk bottoms, Cloudveil pants, 2 pairs of light socks, Thin long-sleeved shirt, BPL Cocoon pullover, lightweight gloves, Western Mountaineering flash vest, and fleece stocking hat.

Slept warm from head to toe. We all expected the temps to drop but never guessed that they would go so low! Very glad I was able to test this out as I now know what this quilt and Neoair is capable of keeping me warm to.

Night three got down to 16° and was pretty much a repeat of night two.

I really wanted to test the 1/8" Thinlight pad on top of the Neoair but thought it would be to easy to tear trying to get into the quilt at night.

I hiked the High Sierra's this past August. It was windy with nightime temps dipping as low as 25 degrees. It snowed one day. Our campsites were all around 10,000 ft.

I slept warm with the NeoAir once I warmed up the inside of my mummy bag. It did take a little longer to warm up my backside initially and I did drape my Thermawrap jacket on top of me on the colder nights. My toes are always cold so I wore wool socks and placed my mittens over my toes. Some nights I wore a fleece hat. I slept in a BPL Merino wool base layer.

If it were colder than the 25 degrees I experienced I would want a warmer base layer and probably another thin pad under the NeoAir (one or both). I was aware of the cold coming up thru the sleep pad.

LV

It may be that people report varying sleep comfort temperatures due to different methods of measuring how cold it actually is. In October I was camping in central Utah on a still night and left my thermometer about a foot outside my rainfly. At around 4 AM I awoke and read the device at 28 F. I then picked it up and layed it on the ground about a foot inside the fly and waited 20 minutes and observed it at 37 F. In order to make a fair comparison of any sleep system it would be useful to have some detail about how and where the temp was measured.

I think we have just proved that individuals' body "thermostats" vary considerably!

My thermometer was fastened to the outside of my pack, which I was using as a pillow. It was on the side of the pack next to the door so wasn't against me or where I would breathe on it. The tent door (including the netting) of my GG Squall Classic was open. That's one trip where a tarp would have been better--not a bug to be seen anywhere!

On the other hand, the thermometer (one of those little zipper-pull types from REI) was probably not 100% accurate. However, the 18*F (-8*C) in the deep, 5,000-foot (1500 meter) elevation valley I was in matched the low temperature in the nearest cities (Wenatchee and Yakima, WA), so it can't have been too far off.

It's a good idea to have some insulation under one's feet and legs when it gets that cold. My feet were on top of my dog, to the benefit of both of us once we warmed up (he was shivering, too). The dog was on top of a 3/8" CCF pad. I would have swiped his pad if his teeth hadn't been chattering, too!

A session of vigorous exercise at bedtime would have been very beneficial to help me warm up the bedding. I finally stopped shivering about midnight, but still woke up several times feeling cold underneath. On the other hand, I was almost too warm on top (20* WM Ultralight).

By the way, I've used a 1/8" Thinlight pad under the dog for summer camping. It has gotten a few dents from doggie tonails but no holes and no tearing. The main problem is that his "turn around three times before lying down" routine tends to was up the thin pad. But the stuff is quite durable!

Edited by hikinggranny on 11/04/2009 12:04:15 MST.