Paul Johnson, in his reply to Franco's posting of Henry Shires' new Rainbow tent, wondered if it would be possible to design a completely free-standing tent using just two hiking poles:

i think it would be a very neat design if such a shelter (especially a one-person) could be designed. no single-duty poles for the freestanding shelter. just use two trekking poles to create a truly freestanding shelter. some type of "binder" ring, velcro wrap, cord, etc. is permissible to "bind" the two trekking poles into a single unit for pitching purposes.

is such possible? i don't think so (even bound together - stakes or guylines are probably going to be needed to keep it erect), but i could be wrong. i'll leave that to cleverer, more creative minds to decide. (Fornshell-san, you copy?)

EDIT:
i'd even go for two trekking poles, some type of "binder"/joiner for the two poles, pole tip covers to protect the tent fabric, and two short "legs" which afix/clamp to the trekking pole skeleton (one for each trk. pole) to provide the required free-standing form. even a design like this would save on tent pole weight for those who use trekking poles.

I thought it might be nice idea (as we sit here during these dark, winter days drooling over summer gear) if we attempted a contest for such a design. I've already sat back with my sketchbook and tried several ideas so far.

Anyone else want to join in? It might be a great exercise in ingenuity (and quite difficult).

Edited by butuki on 01/14/2006 00:53:48 MST.

Maybe BPL can structure this like the spreadsheet/gear list contest????????????

Here's one idea -- a teepee tent.

1. Round floor -- with two pole pockets (at 0, 180)and two "anchors" for guylines (at 90, 270).

2. Set up two hiking poles fully extended by inserting one end in pole socket, and tying the other end where the poles meet at the top.

3. From the top, loop two guylines -- insert the end of each guyline to the respective anchor at the floor -- then tighten with plastic tensioner just enough to stabilize the two trekking poles.

4. Drape silnylon tent fly/wall and secure to floor -- like one of those GoLite teepee tents.

5. Envision a zippable flap door -- and mesh along the bottom perimeter where floor meets tent.

The height of the tent and the diameter of the floor will both be determined by the extended length of the trekking poles. Probably OK for solo use??? Get LONG collapsible poles and don't expect a lot of headrooom. :)

Edited by ben2world on 01/14/2006 10:57:42 MST.

Ben,

way to go. not too shabby at all. good thinking. how long can sectioned trekking poles extend (150cm, or more???). on an angle, still might get some reasonable headroom, not great, but still workable. what wall angle were you thinking of?

also, would also work for a single-wall pyramid, like the BD MegaLight, with 4 sides and much smaller? w/o using stakes, how do you keep the other sides down. to stabilize the poles, those internal guys need to be in tension - what's holding them to the ground?

a small "hub" like used for the BA Seedhouse1 SL (and i think also on the MSR Hubba) with 2-4 sections on side, or just a short curved sectioned, shock-corded pole could, for very little weight maybe be used to increase peak height? the pole would basically function as an extender for the hiking poles. maybe their tips could fit right into the ends of this "extender"?

for most people an extender would be a must for fixed length CF trekking poles.

Edited by pj on 01/14/2006 11:24:29 MST.

Hi Paul:

There's going to be an inverse relationship between headroom (height) and floor length (diameter)! Either be prepared to crawl in and out, or curl up to sleep, or get longer poles for increased height and diameter!

I thought about hubs, short cross pole, and pole extenders, but they would violate the spirit of this exercise, correct???

It's raining outside, so this is a good indoor cerebral exercise... but at the end of the day, I think I would forgo 'freestanding' and just open up the thing and tarp. :)

Edited by ben2world on 01/14/2006 11:18:30 MST.

Interesting thread and design challenge but remember that there's a reason why we have tripods and not duopods. The only way to make a tipi-style shelter stand up on its own is with at least 3 points of structural contact. Two trekking poles alone doesn't get it done. Also, since there's no inherent framing to maintain a circular perimeter, a round floor won’t work for this design (without thoroughly staking the perimeter). A square or rectangular floor works but, again, the design requires staking at all times. Lastly, max trekking pole length is typically 57”, a constraint that severely limits usable height/width geometries for "A-frame" construction.

Henry:

You are right about the round floor. In my scheme above, if the floor isn't staked down (which violates the rules), tightening the guylines will simply raise up the floor -- no freestanding.

Shucks. Back to drawing board...

HS,

not clear on why a sq. or rect. req. staking at all times. certainly, if the frame has only two legs. this is the point of your comment right? four "legs" & then no staking is necessarily required with a four-sided floor, right?

Paul,

If you want an integrated floor of a lightweight material(like silnylon), you need some way to tension it. Technically floor tensioning isn't required but if you don't do it you end up stressing the canopy and/or with a severely bunched floor. The idea I wasgetting at was to use the support structure as a floor tensioner. A 3-point structure is minimum so you would have 3 points to tie off and you can use that to get at least close to a square/rectangular floor. Technically it would be closer to a triangle but you could get reasonable tension on a four-sided figure with a bit of "float."

Actually, if you're willing to live with "float", you could have a circular floor.

-H

Edited by 07100 on 01/14/2006 11:53:03 MST.

Is this exercise limited to hiking poles for structure???

Or is it any potentially dual purpose item that is carried???

(I'm hinting at something here... :) )

any. be creative. what's your idea?

Thought I'd put up a few of my sketches. Two are tongue-in-cheek, but the first one was serious.

This one utilizes a Pacific Outdoor Equipment Insul Mat Max-Thermo as the longitudinal structure for the tent; two inflatable air-sponsons on either end of the tent to tension the tent fabric, hold the Insul Mat down, give extra length to the tent, and act as a pillow for the head; an air sponson at the apex of the tent to hold the tips of the two hiking poles, tension the top of the tent fabric, and hold up the tent rain cap and vent; two hiking poles set to their maximum lengths (though lesser length can be used with more air in the air sponson) inside the tent and held in place at the vestibule with a length of strap attached to the silnylon floor; a triangular bugnet with zipper; a bugnet in the apex for ventilation; a vestibule of two triangular pieces held together by velcro, and a silnyln floor to which the Insul Mat is strapped.




These are self-explanatory, I hope. They work better in colder months when muscles no longer need exertion and infiltrated ice helps the limbs to act as additional, stiff supports.



Some initial sketches. I played with the idea of placing air sponsons at every corner to grip and hold the two hiking poles. I got my ideas from the way inflatable frame kayaks and folding kayaks with air sponsons work. Still have to work on a bunch of other ideas... but it's time to get out for a hike today, so I'll see everyone tomorrow!

Edited by butuki on 01/14/2006 15:41:17 MST.

Very Clever!

I see No. 2 as the perfect TWO-PERSON tent! The wife snoozes in her bag, while hubby props up the tent as shown.

OR, two buddies can take turns sleeping/propping.

Edited by ben2world on 01/14/2006 15:47:00 MST.

My suggestion: Removeable internal pack frame or "break-down" external pack frame that can be used as part of the structure; most likely still requiring other items such as the aforementioned trekking poles or hiking staff to supplement unless you can reuse all vertical and cross struts.

What makes me think of this is Bill's custom pack frame he had built. It's crying out to be part of a shelter as well.

I have wanted to find a threaded rod small and light enough to connect two or more carbon arrow shafts with the normal arrow inserts; just haven't gotten around to it. Most threaded rod is heavy steel; but I wonder if aluminum or Ti is available as threaded rod (I dont have taps and dies yet to make my own and I dont know if Ti can even be done this way as hard as it is).

Cut the shafts to a preferred length, make an ultralight pack around them, and you are in business. Dual purpose.

Granted, I dont want to add weight to a pack just to say I lightened my shelter; but sometimes it's nice to have the additional carrying capacity of an internal frame for longer trips.


Just a thought.

I LOVE #3. Hilarious! Nice work, Miguel. Reminds me of my usual nights sleep pressed up against my very large dog after he creeps up between my wife and I about 2am and settles in for the night. I'm living proof that, yes, one can sleep on a 6"-wide surface, tetering on the edge of a 3' cliff...

Shelter #1 is very clever--note additional contact points required for free-standing provided by matress. Is the "Pacific Outdoor Equipment Insul Mat Max-Thermo" really stiff enough to do the job?

-H

Maybe HS will begin making packs that incorporate the poles from his tarptents as pack frames ............

Miguel,

so, are you saying in pic #1 that you climb into a collapsed shelter, and then once laying down on the sleeping pad, you erect the trekking poles and the wt of your body on the sleeping pad keeps the poles erect?

very clever, indeed. might be a bit of a balancing act. what happens if you move around at night? doesn't the pad need to be the precise length of the sleeper's body?

what we probably need is a flat frame under the pad to provide some stiffness? perhaps the tensioning guylines attach to it? now this idea (your idea w/an under pad add'l frame = still your idea) would not conform to the original idea in the initial post in this Thread. however, it's an "outside-the-box" kind of idea, and clever in its own right.

you sure are creative (and a good artist) - both the serious attempt and funny ones. i'm still chuckling at them (the two funny ones).

Edited by pj on 01/15/2006 00:27:59 MST.

Miguel, I can see now why you get my sense of humor.
No 1 is great on paper but I doubt very much that it will work; well in fact it will not. As long as we give Henry something to work on, we can all be happy with some crazy ideas.
Franco

Edited by Franco on 01/14/2006 21:32:03 MST.

Franco,

>>"give Henry something to work on"

good point. Henry, Bill, or any other "Pro" with a creative mind might come up with an "outside-the-box" idea that would work - even if it didn't conform exactly to the initial "challenge".

Miguel, in his initial Post, accurately quoted me as saying "is such possible? i don't think so". i sure would like to be proven wrong.

Edited by pj on 01/15/2006 01:23:12 MST.

Michael Freyman asked:
Q 1- I have wanted to find a threaded rod small and light enough to connect two or more carbon arrow shafts with the normal arrow inserts; just haven't gotten around to it. Most threaded rod is heavy steel; but I wonder if aluminum or Ti is available as threaded rod (I dont have taps and dies yet to make my own and I dont know if Ti can even be done this way as hard as it is).

A1 - I use 1/8" aluminum all thread but have to special order it. It is the same thread as the arrow inserts. It is used to connect my Arrow Shaft 2.8oz trekking poles, my Tripod and the Carbon Fiber tubes I use to pull my Pack/Sled. The Sled poles were made to come apart and be used on a winter tent I was making. that might work for your two hiking pole freestanding tent. The poles on my External Frame Pack will come off and have screw inserts in each end so they can be connected. My current frame only uses two carbon fiber tubes of 23.5" long. Add thoes to my arrow shaft trekking poles at 50" each (two pieces each pole also with screw inserts and you would have a lot of pole length to play with. I also carry the third leg of my arrow shaft tripod for another 50" (2 sections also).

All connections are with the aluminum all thread.