Waiting....still waiting....

good luck Ryan

What are the reason(s) for selecting fleece socks not wool socks?

Bryan,

The fleece socks you are referring to are the RBH Vapor Barrier socks. They are sort of a composite sock that has the VB and the fleece in a single item. If he was using a wool sock, he would need to bring a separate VB liner as well. The VB liner is necessary to provide adequate warmth from such a light system and to prevent his insulating sock from getting wet from perspiration (no spares.)

Bob

OK---I get it now.

I've never tried VB socks or a VB liner with my wool socks. I've lived in some pretty cold places (Montana, Vermont, and Switzerland) and have found my wool socks to keep me cozy, even with the foot perspiration. However, I've never been out for an extended period in SUL conditions. Perhaps that's the difference.

Cheers,

OK, here's where I'm at. I split the difference in weight between the two lists. 95% of the ideas were incorporated into this final list. I opted for "less stuff" and bought some of the weight back with "warmer stuff".

I'll continue to update and note those updates as the dates get closer. Looking at between xmas and new years or early january right now.

The achilles heel of this list, and all of the lists I think, is the lack of waterproof gear for digging the snowcave. I'll gamble with the VB, a judiciously placed foam pad, and slow down to regulate sweating and sloppiness somewhat.

The other weakness of this list is the lack of meaningful winter insulation (clothing + sleeping) if the snowcave concept fails for some reason. Hence the addition of a killer firestarting kit.

Finally, the clothing system, and especially, the torso clothing, is brutally simple: two pieces. The VB is a decent base layer because the inner surface is napped and "warm" relative to something like a silnylon VB. But exercising, stopping, donning the Cocoon, will definitely result in a chill. The strategy for anything but a very nice day will be slow and steady progress to regulate sweating and energy levels.

Other challenges? (hint: there are many ;)

RYAN'S FINAL GEAR LIST FOR THE SUL WINTER CHALLENGE:

Clothing Worn
-------
10.0 RBH Designs VB Jacket
8.0 RBH Designs VB Pants
4.0 BMW Featherlite Vapor Mitts
2.0 Headsweats Winter Cap

1. Changed clothing worn list to reflect the lightest possible combination that will likely be worn, moved remainder of clothing to the pack.

2. Ditched the sun hat.

3. Relying on synthetic high loft insulation (see below) for active warmth in really foul conditions in lieu of the MW tights and shirt.
4. Ditched liner gloves. If stuff can't work while wearing mitts, then it doesn't work ;)

Footwear
-------
1.5 Smartwool RBX Socks (liners)
3.0 RBH Designs Vapor-Thrm Fleece Socks
24.0 Montrail Susitna II XCR Trail Running Shoes
16.0 Forty Below Custom 2mm Neoprene Overboots
35.0 Northern Lites Elites Snowshoes

1. Lightened liner socks to an ankle length wool liner, ditched extra socks.

Other Items Worn / Carried
-------
0.2 Maiu Jim Titanium Frame Sunglasses
0.5 ACR Whistle, Photon Freedom, AirCore 1 Lanyard
1.3 Suunto X6
5.4 Stix Pro Carbon Fiber Trekking Poles
1.5 Snow Baskets for Trekking Poles
0.2 Gossamer Gear Mini Sunscreen

1. Lighter sunglasses.

2. Flatter whistle.

-------
112.6 Ounces
7.04 Pounds total worn/carried (not in pack)


Shelter/Sleep/Extra Clothing
-------
0.0 Snowcave
21.0 Expedition Arc X Quilt
3.6 Vapr Nano Bivy
3.7 Gossamer Gear NightLight Torso
5.7 Gossamer Gear Thinlight 3/8 19.5 x 59
5.6 Snowclaw Shovel
8.5 BMW Cocoon Pullover
8.5 BMW Cocoon Pants
3.5 Marmot Ion Windshirt
2.5 OR Windpro Balaclava

1. Saved weight in other gear/clothing & bought back some down fill in the bag.

2. Simplified pad system.

3. Synthetic insulation as a backup for the down bag.

4. Ditching “extras” like socks, will wear overboots over VB liners to bed if it's that bad.

5. Replaced CTE bala with Windpro bala (more warmth for less weight)

Pack
-------
3.7 Gossamer Gear G6
1.0 Various Nano Stuff Sacks for bag, clothes, gear

1. Added some stuff sacks for organization of gear.

Cook/Hydration
-------
2.5 Trangia 1L Sauce Pan
0.2 Foil Lid
0.4 BPL Titanium Mini-Spork
0.3 Box of wooden matches in Ziploc
2.3 1.5L Nalgene wide mouth cantene
5.1 Modified MSR Windpro Stove
3.5 220 g canister (empty)
0.4 Ti windscreen / heat reflector

1. Replaced 3L cantene with 1.5L cantene for less bulk. Will plan on 1.5L per day of water carried/consumed outside of morning & evening in camp.
2. Replaced Xtreme with modified Windpro (Mike Martin's design).
3. Added back weight savings of stove with more fuel.

Essentials
-------
1.8 Petzl Zipka Plus w/Li Batteries
0.5 TP: 4”x4” blue shop towel squares
0.3 Alcohol hand gel in small bottle
0.3 Aloksak for organization
1.0 Firestarting Kit: Esbit Tab, Sparklite, Tinder-Quik, Lighter, Storm Matches

1. Replaced Tikka with Zipka and factored in Li battery weights.

2. Ditched candles, opting for more down in sleeping bag, stove fuel.
3. Ditched the knife and added back the weight in firestarting supplies.
-------
85.9 Ounces
5.37 Pounds base weight carried in pack
-------
12.41 Pre-food/fuel/water skin out weight
-------
70.0 2.5 days food @ 28 oz/day (2xB, 3xL, 2xD)
7.7 Fuel weight in 220 g canister
50.7 Initial water capacity at trailhead

I see you did not try to go sub 5.

thats Ok, I was thinking this was going to happen the whole time

you decided to go a little more minimal, good luck you know more than I do.

"0.5 TP: 4”x4” blue shop towel squares"

I know it's only .5 oz but if there is going to be enough snow to build a snowcave, there will be enough snow to make TP unnecessary. Or are Montana backpackers more sensitive to the cold than Alberta backpackers ;-)

Interesting list.
I'll miss seeing a report on the prototype eVENT Cocoon on this trip.

Maui Jim's? C'mon,maybe a little too effete? :-)> Hope there's enough face coverage.

I agree about the weak link in this list being it's suitability for snow cave digging. I look forward to the live RSS feed on this one. I hope profanity will not be censored.

Change of Balaclavas-- I would go an extra 1/2 oz. and use OR's Balaclava w/ face mask, over the lighter Windpro model which leaves more face exposed.

A little surprised not to see an intermediate layer of insulation over the VB. A little all or nothing in the insulation choice dept. Buts that's me-- I personally would elect to carry another 10 oz. of clothing for "hiking my own hike".

How did you get your Suunto X6 to 1.3 oz.? Mine weighs in at almost 2. There doesn't seem to be alternative straps for the X6 available.

Thanks, Ryan for the opportunity to brainstorm for this trip. As a result I personally feel more comfortable/inspired in shaping a UL list reflecting Cascade conditions and needs. It will be somewhat heavier--but not by much.

Edited by kdesign on 12/14/2005 15:33:25 MST.

I'm also thrilled that the Winter SUL Challenge acted as a spur to adapting a couple of great stoves to the UL world---at least for Winter use.

Many kudos to Bill, Michael, Ryan F.,Roger, and all, for their work on this.

If only MSR and Coleman are listening....

Edited by kdesign on 12/14/2005 11:29:34 MST.

It looks like the Xtreme will end up weighing at 6oz +/- a small amount. This is with a set of Titanium legs, a milled value assembly, a lighter burner head and dumping a few other parts that don't seem to be necessary.

The 6oz total weight is a reduction of about 57% over the stock weight of 11oz. My goal was a 60% weight reduction. The extra 3% could be achieved if I milled the corners of the valve assembly but I didn't think I would like the way it would then look.

- Titanium and parts for the Stove Stand/Legs and .5 to 1 hour labor.

- Milling the valve assembly 1.45 to 2 hours labor.

- New "Lighter" Burner head .5 hour labor plus parts.

Bill-

That sounds terrific! I'd love to see a photo when you're done. Your stove should beat the windpro system on weight when you figure in the canister weights.

Best Regards,

-Mike

Ryan Jordan writes:

>> 3.5 220 g canister (empty)

Wow! Ryan, who makes a 3.5oz 220g canister? I *need* to get some of those. :^)

Hey, it looks like someone is changing the conditions initially set by this forum:
Hi all,
So, our illustrious publisher and certified nut, Ryan Jordan, and I were chatting about the SUL challenge. He came up with this idea with no help from me...

You all choose his SUL gear list for WINTER backpacking - we're talking sub 5# and real Montana winter - and he'll take exactly that gear out...in Montana...in the winter. He'll report back, IF he survives. We want him to survive, so really put some thought into this!

We provided 2 lists for you to choose from--and yet you just modified both to replace with other gear you felt necessary, thereby negating the opinions of everyone else on this forum and denying the terms initially set foward by the beginning of this forum. I vote that this gear list be changed to only allow gear from the final lists posted by Ryan and Kevin. Anyone else agree??

In effect, Ryan Jordan did choose a list mostly culled from the final lists that Ryan Faulkner and I had presented ( which were largely previously generated by a number of other people on this board). Dr. Ryan is choosing to subtract items that were on our 2 lists, but that was in the rules of the game. He did choose to add a few unique specimans ( like Maui Jim Ti Sunglasses---we hope they don't freeze on to his temples). Also---very few people were involved at the end. Someone had to call the shots. And he's the guy who has to do the hike w/ this list.

Ryan--- if you read this----take the candles, you'll thank me.

Edited by kdesign on 12/17/2005 20:36:53 MST.

I made a .pdf file of the gearlist.

http://hometown.aol.com/rhd101/BPL_SUL_Winter_Challenge.pdf

> Wow! Ryan, who makes a 3.5oz 220g canister? I *need* to get some of those. :^)

That's 'empty'.
You might note another line 7.7 oz for 220 g fuel.

Roger writes:

>> That's 'empty'.

Thanks, Roger. Umm, maybe I was a bit vague at what I was getting at...

My 220g (fuel wt.) Giga canisters weigh 5.3oz (150g) *empty*. I was wondering if somebody makes a particularly light canister (maybe aluminum or something.) fwiw, my empty 110g (fuel wt.) Giga canisters weigh 3.2oz (90g). Perhaps the weight on Ryan's list was incorrectly posted for a small canister instead...

Cheers,

-MIke

Edited by MikeMartin on 03/16/2006 16:52:48 MST.

> My 220g (fuel wt.) Giga canisters weigh 5.3oz (150g) *empty*. I was wondering if somebody makes a particularly light canister (maybe alumunium or something.) fwiw, my empty 110g (fuel wt.) Giga canisters weigh 3.2oz (90g).

Well, yeah, it's a problem. Canister weights are all over the place. We love the old Primus ones: they were made of aluminium (steel base) and were down around 110 g empty. Some of the more 'tourist' brands are quite heavy. Sadly, it may be that the aluminium Primus ones are going off the market. Makes the Powermax even more attractive.

_____________________________________________________________________
Re:
You all choose his SUL gear list for WINTER backpacking - we're talking sub 5# and real Montana winter - and he'll take exactly that gear out...in Montana...in the winter. He'll report back, IF he survives. We want him to survive, so really put some thought into this!
_______________________________________________________________________

O.K. first of all if only 1 sub 5# list got submitted, than why would there be any consideration in going over 5#. The rest of the posters couldn't even agree to the challenge. It became some hoopla about things he should take to make it a list that anyone could go with, (which in tern killed the list and the sub 5#).

“He'll report back, IF he survives”

Bet yet he can’t just carry just a photon or something else lighter, no. In fact he has to carry a photon as a back up. I mean cone on. I would carry less "light" weight if I went on a through hike. I even suggested to cut back, and oh no.

What someone really needs to do is go back through all of the forums and pick the lightest of each gear suggested. I’d bet it will easily be under 5#

---SUB 5#------ Wasn’t this the whole idea of the ENTIRE trip????????????
At least it was at the start, before it got sappy with what he may enjoy more.

I’m sorry, but if we can’t even play by his rules, then Ryan should be able to change the list to whatever he wants.

Edited by awsorensen on 12/21/2005 22:07:50 MST.

Aaron,

I understand your remarks, because I was the one who posted the sub 5 list. I always thought this was the goal so I tried my hardest to make it happen, but it looks like RJ decided to go with the idea of redefining winter SUL to be 6lbs or less. I dont quite get it, but I gave up on trying to save the sub 5 idea.