Introduction to Outdoor Retailer Summer Market 2008

Companion forum thread to:

Introduction to Outdoor Retailer Summer Market 2008

Edited by ryan on 08/07/2008 21:18:17 MDT.

Hi Mike

Rocking onwards.

> world's lightest canister stove (purported to be fifty-three grams)
Ahhhh... considering that our Forum correspondent Tony Beasley has already posted photos of a canister stove he made weighing TEN grams, that perhaps should be rephrased as 'world's lightest commercial canister stove'.
But then, you wouldn't expect anything less from BPL members, would you! :-) :-) :-)

Yes. Of course you're right, Roger. That should read "commercially available", or some such disclaimer. ;)

I think some BPL readers could make gear lighter than you could buy in just about any category you'd care to name.

Cheers,

-Mike

Since some here are interested in that tunnel design that Roger is always going on about, can you check out the MSR Skinny 1 and 2 and ask them if later on they will have a version for the American market and how come the Asian version is out first .
Franco

Hi ORSM-2008 team.

I got the following email from IDFL - the Down testers.

It might be of interest to us members if one of you all paid them a visit and got a briefing on how they do their testing.

"Hello -------, It's that time of year again for the Summer Outdoor Retailer Show in Salt Lake City, Utah. If you plan on attending the OR show during August 8-11, please come visit us at booth #155-224. IDFL also welcomes all Outdoor Retailer attendees to come visit or tour our main office in Salt Lake City.

If you would like more information on visiting our main office please contact us at +1.801.467.7611 or via email: info@idfl.com.

Regards,

Your friends at IDFL"

Hi Bill,

I'll be meeting with IDFL.

What specifically are you looking for?

IDFL is equipped to, and will run, any of the standard down tests, and does directed research as well.

Hi Franco, we saw the Skinny at the Cascade Designs booth yesterday. It's scheduled for spring introduction in the US.
Very nice tent.

Will

Bill et al.,

I spoke at length with IDFL yesterday about down testing.

None of their tests stimulate real world testing. 900 fp in a test is going to be a pipe dream in the field, because they steam wash and dry the down to nearly zero humidity before doing the test. Ironically, this most recent iteration of test methods was designed to determine the maximum possible fill power for down rather than what it will look like in the field.

Interestingly as a side note, we did some 900 fp testing of down a few years ago on two manufacturer's 900 bags. We cut the bags open and sent them to IDFL. Neither made the claimed 900 spec (they tested 830-870 using the steam method). What was more dramatic was that when each down (which clearly came from different sources as evidenced by visual inspection) was subjected to 50% humidity, the differences were pretty dramatic. One bag tested at 770 fp, the other at 680 fp. It seems that at least these two sources of 900 down had feathers in it that were not resilient in response to humidity.

The kicker is that we ran the same test next to down taken from a manufacturer's 750 fp bag. at 50% humidity, the fp was 720. Why? It had more feathers that were stiff enough to preserve the loft in moist conditions.

Hi Ryan,

Thanks for sharing this information with us.

For me the most important part of your reply has to do with your comments about the independent testing you did.

Based on your results with the 750 fp down some combination of feathers and puff-down might be the way to go for a quicker dry out rate.

I should start picking out the feathers in the down I hand stuff and save them for a special test. And as you are rolling around on the floor laughing at that get your son to take some pictures of you.

Can we expect additional articles about the ORSM 2008... or what is posted all that there will be? Seems like the coverage this year was pretty light. I have heard of a number of interesting productions that where at the show which didn't seem to get mentioned in any of the reports. For example, a friend mentioned that the Osprey Exos was at the show.

Hi Mark-

Yes, more is coming. The articles are more in-depth this time, so they're being published over a longer period.

Cheers,

-Mike

"The articles are more in-depth this time, so they're being published over a longer period."

NOTE:
Mike - When I first wrote this I shot Mike. I should not have shot Mike as he was just the messanger. I have change my comment to say BPL.com.

I hope BPL.com doesn't think that we are a bunch of dopes.

By the time you get around to rationing out what was at this past ORS we will have read about it in the slowest magazine published. I guess it does give you something to post each week as it seems really good stuff has all but dried up. News is only news for a very short time. Is this what BPL.com is coming to? And we are still paying for this?

I am on several other backpacking site everyday and you folks are way behind the power curve.

This idea is about as smart as wanting to keep what fabric the new shirt and pants are made out of a secret.

I think it is about time to vote a few of you folks "Off the Island".

Edited by bfornshell on 08/29/2008 23:52:27 MDT.

Bill-

1. No, I hold BPL readers, especially yourself, in very high esteem.

2. Maybe I'm just overly sensitive tonight, but I take the tone of your last post personally. FWIW, the schedule is not in my hands.

3. I stand by my "in-depth" comment. You'll have to judge for yourself if they are worth the wait.

4. Sometimes for the privilege of using state-of-the-art materials, you're obligated to keep secrets.

-Mike

Edited by MikeMartin on 08/29/2008 22:29:36 MDT.

Hi Mike,

You know it is the messenger that always gets shot.

Sorry, I should have used the term BPL.com instead of your name. I will change that.

As for the suggestion that:

"4. Sometimes for the privilege of using state-of-the-art materials, you're obligated to keep secrets."

I don't buy that. When I first touched it I thought it was a Pertex product and stated that. After following the Pertex link on the home page and reading all the Specs for the different Pertex products and comparing them to my shirt front and back I am about 99.9% sure I know which one it is. If I am correct that it is a Pertex product I find it hard to believe Pertex would require you to keep something a secret that is described on their web site.

I would go along with a suggestion that Ryan would like to protect his investment by not telling us what the material is.

I don't intend to publish what I think the material is as I like Ryan to much to do that. I would send my idea to him in a direct email for his amusement.

I have been able to buy or get samples of several "state of the art" materials and insulation and when I ask if I can talk about it, I have always been told yes.

Edited by bfornshell on 08/30/2008 06:21:14 MDT.

> By the time you get around to rationing out what was at this past ORS we will have read about it in the slowest magazine published. I guess it does give you something to post each week as it seems really good stuff has all but dried up. News is only news for a very short time. Is this what BPL.com is coming to? And we are still paying for this?
> I am on several other backpacking site everyday and you folks are way behind the power curve.

I would be interested in hearing what other readers think about this issue - while noting Mike's comment that some of the to-be-published articles have greater depth than a simple news-flash.

Cheers
Roger Caffin
Online Community Manager

I'd prefer a news flash about all the latest gear during the week of the show. Following that with more in-depth material would be icing on the cake. But then, I have not renewed my subscription just yet so my opine may not mean much.

I think many BPL paying customers like getting the latest info before it is seen on every other non-paying website covering the show. That is part of the draw (or major part of the draw) to BPL.

Edited by jshann on 08/30/2008 05:15:44 MDT.

John,

As a "paying" customer, I agree wholeheartedly with your take on the issue!

about the downtesting and the big difference between quoted FP values and actual FP values, this actually doesn't surprise me. I remember the review of a number of sleeping bag models in a magazine some years ago in which the down itself was also tested. The difference between quoted and tested values was on average 13%.

So it seems like the data shows that no matter what the fill power number is above about 750, in humid conditions the field number will be about 750.

Would this theorectically be due to the fact that high fill power, i.e. 900, doesn't have enough "structure" to it to hold up under humid conditions and "collapses?" Whereas 750 down has enough feathers in it to keep the item bulked up?

If this is true, then it would be a waste to purchase items above 750 fill power in the east where I live because 50% humidity is considered an arid day! Just as importantly, when figuring components for MYOG projects, 750 cu.in./ounce should be used to calculated how much down is needed, no matter what the "dry" fill power rating is.

This may not be of great concern to you folks in the desert southwest or high rockies but my normal hiking territory is from Florida to New England.

I'm glad this came up now because my next planned project is a down vest for this coming winter and I've been planning the project with 900 F.P. down! I could have had a pretty skimpy vest!

A year or two ago there was fairly comprehensive coverage including an abundance of photos, particularly of tents, but many other trail staples as well. This years coverage was a bit disappointing and most of the news re: upcoming gear was gleaned from a European provider who occasionally posted a link in this forum. At my age I’ve learned the unpalatable taste of eating my own words too many times when discovering that there is good reason for a particular result that has been hastily criticized by my incontinent lips. Therefore I remain disappointed while benefiting from the many other great assets of this site.

Hi Guys-

To those who've stated that they are disappointed with the coverage (as opposed to the publishing schedule) of our OR articles, I'd like to know specifically what you thought about the following articles:

Plush Pads
Lightweight Rainwear
Hot Stoves
Lightweight Footwear Roundup

If you didn't like those articles, well, then I guess we'd like to hear what we can do better next time. If you did enjoy those, then stay tuned for similar articles on Shelters, Sleeping Bags, Apparel, and Packs that are forthcoming. BTW, as John S. suggested, the plan for the next show is to offer a mix of quick blog-like dispatches along with more comprehensive articles...

Thank you for your feedback.

Cheers,

-Mike

Edited by MikeMartin on 08/30/2008 15:43:36 MDT.

I don't have any problems with any of the already published articles. I guess the major concern was a question of timing. I don't know what the intentions are but I can imagine that if you intent to publish 3 or 4 more articles, the last one will be published in a couple weeks time which is about 4 or 5 weeks after OR took place.
If others are like me, they want to know as fast as possible (for some strange reason since nothing will be available till spring next year :-) ). I search where ever I can and know other sites and blogs where info about OR can be found. If I don't find it here, there still a chance that I will read about it somewhere else. Certainly after several weeks.

I like the idea of more comprehensive articles and understand that it will take more time to write them since you will need to make a synthesis of all sorts of information. The downside of such articles is that expectations about the articles grow e.g. more in dept info or analysis. I guess sometimes this can be delivered but not always.

Edited by Woubeir on 08/30/2008 17:06:44 MDT.

John, you should go into politics! :-)


Also, spadeout.com even has videos of the Outdoor Market!

I think the tag line of "stale news" is an interesting one. We're talking about backpacking gear here. It's not like the info will be out of data a month from now, especially given that most of the products from OR won't be available til next spring. So I definitely come down on the side of preferring more depth and a longer schedule then the other way around. Besides as several posters have noted other blogs covered the show and provided the immediate info similar to what BPL did last year. Personally I have no problem going elsewhere for that info. I want expertise and depth from BPL as I think they uniquely have the staff to provide it.

Mike asked for some comments/criticisms/suggestions of this years OR coverage so here are a few of mine.

The pad story was a blog style report. I didn't get anything from this that wasn't covered in the press release. That being said the neoair is probably one of if not the most anticipated product at OR for the BPL crowd so I think this had to be written.

The one thing you always question in a lighter weight pad is durability and I would have appreciated the initial impressions of the neoair on that topic. At last year's OR when discussing the clearview, I believe the author questioned the rep about durability who responded by saying that the pad is easily patched. That was helpful in forming initial impressions of the pad, that were validated by BPLs later full review. So I was disappointed that the same was not done for the neoair.

I thought the rain jacket write up was ok. In some ways this article is a substitute for not having an up to date state of the market report which would be more useful. Ideally I'd like to see that updated SOM. Then the OR coverage would be a spotlight style review of any new/modified products that might contend for a top spot once a full review had been done.

I have the same comments for the shoe article with one addition. I have a terrible time finding shoes that fit. This is a particular problem as most of these shoes need to be mail-ordered so trying on many pairs is difficult. So I would like to see BPL try to describe the fit of the shoes. Factors like width of the toebox and heel and overall, amount of arch support, and perhaps a few others would be useful.

Finally the one potential revolutionary thing to be announced at OR seems to be the ion mask technology and in many more ways then shoes. It seems this is worth a separate write up at some point.

That's my opinion anyway. Thanks for listening.

p.s. It's interesting how the internet has created the requirement for journalists to respond immediately to questions/feedback/complaints from their readers. In the old days you'd just write a letter to the editor and never expect a response. I think the interaction is a positive development but it must take up a lot of time that could be spent writing.

p.p.s The real problem I have with BPLs OR coverage is that initial forum posts from staff led me to believe a lot more content was coming a lot sooner then the reality turned out to be. This seems to be standard procedure for BPL. It's far better to under-promise and over-deliver than the other way round.

Mike,

Yes, you deserve some feedback, and I appreciated the review of the upcoming sleeping pads. Particularly significant to me was the description of the modified dye cut which results in a more favorable R rating for the Thermarest pads. A Western Mountaineering representative advise me of the same recently and suggested that the women’s pad would provide increased warmth because of the slanted dye cut of the pad absent on the men’s. I didn’t understand this but your article clarified it as well as notifying me that this cut would be incorporated into the men’s pad along with other modifications that would make the pad lighter. This is just an example of some good news from BPL reporting which was indeed appreciated.

It would have helped if BPL would have provided a pre-show syllabus of BPL’s strategy of coverage revealing that reports would be released over a period of several weeks giving the reporters time to write detailed critical articles of the gear at the show. I don't recall that BPL outlined beforehand that the news would be time-released over a period of weeks. I thought that BPL coverage was over and done with but now that I know that there is more to come and the reason for it, my disappointment is abated and I understand why the limited coverage thus far.

Additionally, since there is more to come from BPL, I hope that you include lots of photos of the gear, especially the shelters. You know that “a picture is worth….” I am looking forward to these articles. Thanks,

John

I guess my disappointment in the Outdoor Shows coverage was that I really wanted to get a glimpse of the shows as they were happening, like BPL used to do for the last few years. One of the most valuable views into the shows that I've had over the years at BPL was getting photos of gear. As it was, this year I kept waiting for the short reviews to show up, found nothing, and so closed the BPL window and looked for the news on other sites, like Lighthiker and Spadout. Kind of silly, I thought, since it is here at BPL that I want to learn about those things. Even today, years after they were published I still go back to old reviews and photos of gear to think about and compare gear. The photographs are what make it most worthwhile, such as last winter when I was looking around for winter tents and brought up a search for the Mountain Hardwear Bunker 1. This year the shows have ended and I feel I've learned nothing about the shows from BPL.

Though I do agree with John that the upcoming articles will probably fulfill that need for more information.

I also realize that trying to keep up to-the-minute reviews certainly must be exhausting! The shows are exhausting enough in themselves!

There are forums for past OR shows, which seem to keep all the info consolidated. Any reason for the change on this?

Perhaps another thing that I liked last year and seems more difficult now, is immediate interaction. I remember that during past shows, because the reports were published during the show, questions could be asked to the BPL team which then could go back to the reps on the floor. The current format doesn't allow this I think (or at least not as easily).

Tom wrote:

"I remember that during past shows, because the reports were published during the show, questions could be asked to the BPL team which then could go back to the reps on the floor."

You know I had forgotten this, but you're absolutely right. That was very cool/useful and is an excellent point on the side of more timely reports. It was like having our own representatives at the show rather than just reading reports.

Edited by nschmald on 08/31/2008 17:33:44 MDT.

Hi all,

This link to a bunch of short revirews was posted on a different thread and I want to add it here.


Short reviews from the Summer-ORS-2008

Seems that Patagonia is coming out or coming back with its Wool #1. It would seem that this new item might have attracted enough attention to get some kind of notice by BPL.com.