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Roleigh Martin
(marti124) - MLife

Locale: Moderator-JohnMuirTrail Yahoo Group
How does new Gore-Tex® Pro Shell rainware compare against ... on 09/20/2007 20:00:10 MDT Print View

How does the new Gore-Tex® Pro Shell rainware compare against Event gear or things like Frog Toggs? REI is pushing this new Gore Tex as if it is the latest thing since Swiss Cheese. Am curious about BPL opinions and insights.

Thanks!

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: How does new Gore-Tex® Pro Shell rainware compare against ... on 09/20/2007 20:28:43 MDT Print View

> How does the new Gore-Tex® Pro Shell rainware compare against Event gear or things like Frog Toggs?
Each one will block the wind just fine, and keep you dry for a while, then you will get wet inside. Fact of life: water runs up arms, down your front, etc.
But the GoreTex clothing costs a lot more and makes a lot more profit for the shops.

Brian James
(bjamesd) - F

Locale: South Coast of BC
Re: How does new Gore-Tex® Pro Shell rainware compare against ... on 09/20/2007 20:49:36 MDT Print View

>But the GoreTex clothing costs a lot more and makes a lot more profit for the shops.

Hilarious!

I have a working theory that any product that needs to be advertised needs to be advertised because it is not fundamentally all that different from other competing products.

Further, the more a product is advertised the more it is basically the same. That's why advertisers have to sensitize you to the very minor differences to be able to pick them up. They have to exaggerate the differences, otherwise you would understand what common sense already tells you: it's pretty much the same thing and for all intents and purposes it's going to work the same.

Some examples:

$10 shampoos
2-ply toilet paper
toothpaste
sprung mattresses
all granola bars
all soups
breakfast cereals
so-called "waterproof breathable" fabrics

A "waterproof breathable" shell *isn't*. Either it's waterproof, or it's breathable: full stop. Saying that Gore Tex X is different from Gore Tex Y proves that you're making it up or exaggerating -- after all, if it was really all that different we wouldn't need advertising to know it!

For example, fleece jackets are different from leather jackets. They never have to advertise this fact because it is real and *significant* and you don't need someone to carefully explain to you why one or the other is better. You already understand clearly that one is better or different. Because the difference is real, and significant in everyday life.

Crest Oral Health Vitality versus Colgate 9 in 1 Total Protection Plus? It's toothpaste, man. If I need an actor to tell me why I believe that one is better or different, it's because it really isn't that different.

(...and I own an eVent jacket, whose breathability never ceases to astound me.)

Mark Verber
(verber) - MLife

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: How does new Gore-Tex® Pro Shell rainware compare against ... on 09/20/2007 21:02:33 MDT Print View

General information aboout XCR -> Pro can be seen at outdoor magic's gore new fabric scope. Gore claims that in lab tests Pro was more breathability than XCR. Independent lab tests that I saw (but can't find right now) seemed to indicate a very slight performance improvement when equiv weight XCR / Pro were tested.

Bottom line... eVENT is still more breathable. Propore is in the same league as Gore-Tex Pro and significantly cheaper. Most people will buy Gore-Tex because they have an effective marketing machine.

For more thoughts... Mark's Raingear Recommendations

Edited by verber on 09/20/2007 21:04:01 MDT.

Roleigh Martin
(marti124) - MLife

Locale: Moderator-JohnMuirTrail Yahoo Group
Re: Re: How does new Gore-Tex® Pro Shell rainware compare against ... on 09/20/2007 22:34:00 MDT Print View

Mark, I see you like the Peak Shell which weighs 11 oz, why not this which weighs half that (see http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/2007_sierra_designs_isotope_rainwear_spotlite_review.html

According to this article, the latest version is much more breathable and waterproof than early models.

I have been using the O2 Rainwear Hooded Jacket by rainshield.com which weighs between 5-6 ounces and is highly breathable. The pants are too fragile though and I carry the 3 oz ULA Rain Wrap if I need leg protection (I rarely, rarely need leg protection). The O2 Rainwear hooded jacket lasted 3 weeks though (2 hikes, a year apart). It only costs $25 though. Carry the vaporware tape at Home Depot (about 12" of it) as it will cover tears super fantastic that last a year (the tape does not peal off this fabric).

http://www.rainshield.com/p_multi.html

I have a Frog Togg jacket that is more durable but it weighs 9 oz and I prefer to save the 3-4 ozs the O2 Rainwear provides.

Rob Blazoff
(Genetic) - F

Locale: Out back, brewing beer in BPA.
GTP on 09/20/2007 22:49:27 MDT Print View

Gore Tex Pro garments are advertised as being durable.
On the light end of GTP jackets, you might find something in the one pound range. They typically are mountaineering/guiding type jackets, not UL rainwear.

Edited by Genetic on 09/20/2007 22:51:58 MDT.

Mark Verber
(verber) - MLife

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Re: Re: How does new Gore-Tex® Pro Shell rainware compare against ... on 09/20/2007 22:59:30 MDT Print View

> Why not the isotope? the latest version is much more breathable and waterproof

Well... the original one wasn't breathable or waterproof... so it could only get better :-). Seriously though, my memory is that even Gore-Tex Classic is more breathable that the isotope.

I must be more gentle on my jackets. My hoodless O2 cycling jacket lasted a couple of years before I decided it was time to replace. I would guess that it got worn maybe 30 days total during that time. When it was time to replace it I picked up the dropstoppers because they were cheap. So far I think I have logged 21 days when I was using the dropstopper. They are still in pretty good shape (no duct tape yet).

BTW: I would second Rob's observation, that Gore-Tex Pro is likely to be used in mountain parkas which require more durability than the ultralight rain gear many of us normally use.

Edited by verber on 09/20/2007 23:02:02 MDT.

Woubeir (from Europe)
(Woubeir) - F - MLife
Re: Re: Re: How does new Gore-Tex® Pro Shell rainware compare against ... on 09/21/2007 05:41:16 MDT Print View

Pro Shell is being advertised as being durable and lightweight at the same time (although lightweight is relative in this community). The lightest Pro Shell jackets I'm aware off weight about 13 oz and those are indeed fully featured mountaineering jackets with helmet compatible hoods,... I see no reason why even lighter Pro Shell jackets can't be made (replacing the obsolete and condensation prone Paclite category).
Does it breathe better than eVENT? Probably not. Up to know, only the lining has changed and while a lining also shows some resistance to vapor transfer, it's definitely the porous membrane which shows the highest resistance. As long as nothing changes to the membrane, eVENT will still have the edge.

Edited by Woubeir on 09/21/2007 05:43:18 MDT.