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Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: America the Troublemaker? on 08/24/2014 13:58:58 MDT Print View

"Policy written by whom? And which policy are you even referring to? Another blanket assertions without specificity. Obama has deported and intercepted more illegals in 5 years than Bush did in 8. There are more border patrol agents now that anytime in the past. Facts."

All of those hired under Bush, not Obama. Fact.

Deportations are down

http://cis.org/ICE-Illegal-Immigrant-Deportations


"We'll just assume this is true"
"Another fabricated Obamacare horror story. Total BS."

So you're calling me a liar? How about this, ...

Edited by rcaffin on 08/24/2014 22:05:25 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: America the Troublemaker? on 08/24/2014 14:05:40 MDT Print View

I don't see the criticism of Obama

"As a result, Border Patrol Agents are now completely overrun with unaccompanied minors and don't have the resources to house them properly"

The large number of minors is because they're desperately escaping violence at home that's resulted from our ridiculous drug laws. Obama has nothing to do with that. Obama has deported more illegal immigrants than previous presidents.


"My wife's job has had to lay off nearly half of the mental health professionals that were previously on her team due to federal funding cuts that have all happened since Obama was elected."

Congress is responsible for federal funding cuts.


"Spoke with one of our contractors the other day whose income is lower middle class. Health care for his family under ACA is running $1200 per month. $1200 he can't afford."

Does he qualify for subsidy or tax refunds? I agree ACA is a mess. Medicare was a mess initially but eventually things worked out to some degree. ACA is the political compromise that there were enough votes to pass. If in a few years, there are more people getting health care, then we can call it a success. Too soon to judge it.

Was your friend getting health care before?


NSA - with all respect to Kat : ) the congress did pass some reforms and Obama signed it. Snowden said it was a step in the right direction. We need to do more.

A lot of this is just technology - we now have the ability to listen to everyone's emails and telephone calls. It takes a while for the privacy laws to catch up.


"How is any of this "getting better"?"

We're out of Iraq and almost out of Afganistan, although we're now suffering the consequences (e.g. ISIS) but that will eventually fade. Public sentiment is such that we won't be getting into more wars any time soon.

Ever since FDR we've tried to get healthcare for all. We've finally achieved that, but I'm worrid it's so flawed it won't survive. If it survives maybe it can evolve a bit into something effective.

We're in the middle of the high tech revolution which is changing everything in amazing ways. This is way more transformative than the industrial revolution. Yeah, problems like NSA, but we'll figure it out.

People are figuring out how crazy the "Reagan Revolution" was.


When you're in the middle of a mess it's easy to get depressed rather than see the big picture.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: America the Troublemaker? on 08/24/2014 14:16:15 MDT Print View

"Stop putting words in my mouth, taking what I say out of context, and changing the subject."

I've always thought you had reasonable opinions.

We're not actually that far apart.


"I'm sick and tired of people, like Obama, who've never spent one minute in the military, who are so quick to unilaterally commit our military. This is why it's best to have veterans who've actually seen combat to serve as President."

I agree you need people that have experienced it, like Colin Powell. They can just be advisors though.

McCain has experienced war, yet he's more willing than most to commit military. That is contradictory to the theory that you want military people as president.

I think Obama's commitments have been very limited and consistent with "the Powell Doctrine".

Are you opposed to the current Iraq air strikes?

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: America the Troublemaker? on 08/24/2014 14:32:27 MDT Print View

Kirby, Craig

The less of two evils is still evil. Obama is personally responsible for droning hundreds of innocent people. He is a warmonger indeed.
Not all that criticize him are doing it for political reasons. Some of us have principles.

With your reasoning when a future republican president does not follow the constitution, his/her supporters will have every right to just recall Obama and call it good.

Edited by Kat_P on 08/24/2014 14:41:19 MDT.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
NSA on 08/24/2014 14:33:51 MDT Print View

"NSA - with all respect to Kat : ) the congress did pass some reforms and Obama signed it. Snowden said it was a step in the right direction. We need to do more."


The changes actually cemented the worst aspects of data collection. You have been duped.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: America the Troublemaker? on 08/24/2014 14:37:34 MDT Print View

"All while ignoring the Constitution, something he's perfected since he's been in office. I can't tell if he's just massively incompetent or if he's so delusional from his messianic complex at this point that he feels he's not bound by the supreme law of the land."


As someone who was happy Obama got elected , I do agree with the above at this point.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Politics on 08/24/2014 15:05:42 MDT Print View

What hope I have comes from hearing the few that are not walking the party lines. Ian, Doug and a few others. These are the people that to me are able to criticize an administration based on principles, not allegiances.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: America the Troublemaker? on 08/24/2014 15:44:02 MDT Print View

"I think it absolutely matters in that it shows a systemic pattern; that these things are not even necessarily controlled by presidents or elections, but by an entire system that has its own inertia. Us voters are restricted to going after individuals and parties when there is something far larger at work here."

+1 A vain effort to prop up the post WWII order that is now crumbling as we rot from within and other nations rise. We flail about clumsily with brute military force and economic sanctions, to no avail, leaving chaos, death, and destruction in our wake. We cannot deny other nations, long suppressed and oppressed, their rightful place in helping to determine the future course of humanity, nor can we impose our system on those whose historical experience has led them to different forms of social and political organization. It is futile and will only hasten our own decline.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Something bigger on 08/24/2014 16:04:30 MDT Print View

""I think it absolutely matters in that it shows a systemic pattern; that these things are not even necessarily controlled by presidents or elections, but by an entire system that has its own inertia. Us voters are restricted to going after individuals and parties when there is something far larger at work here."

+1 A vain effort to prop up the post WWII order that is now crumbling as we rot from within and other nations rise. We flail about clumsily with brute military force and economic sanctions, to no avail, leaving chaos, death, and destruction in our wake. We cannot deny other nations, long suppressed and oppressed, their rightful place in helping to determine the future course of humanity, nor can we impose our system on those whose historical experience has led them to different forms of social and political organization. It is futile and will only hasten our own decline."



Then the person seeking the most powerful position on our planet owes us to be brave enough to expose this larger, deeper system and start to dismantle it.
It may be a death wish for a president to expose what we should know, but anyone running for this office should have considered that. He may want to stick around for his daughters ; he should not have sought that position then.

Those who vote may want to consider voting for someone who is brave enough to do the right thing.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: America the Troublemaker? on 08/24/2014 16:08:09 MDT Print View

I don't think the U.S. is crumbling to be replaced by other countries

I think other countries are rising to our level.

"I believe in American exceptionalism, just as I suspect that the Brits believe in British exceptionalism and the Greeks believe in Greek exceptionalism."

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Something bigger on 08/24/2014 16:55:00 MDT Print View

"Those who vote may want to consider voting for someone who is brave enough to do the right thing."

Someone brave enough to do the right thing can't even make it past the primaries, Katharina. It is, as Craig said, a systemic problem. It is also well to remember that the president does not operate in a vacuum, and must work with Congress to accomplish anything. They, too, are part of a systemic problem, beholden to special interests, and will not get elected without having been vetted for loyalty to same.

Only the voters have the ability to change things.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: America the Troublemaker? on 08/24/2014 16:57:16 MDT Print View

"I don't think the U.S. is crumbling to be replaced by other countries

I think other countries are rising to our level."

It's a two way street, Jerry.

"I believe in American exceptionalism, just as I suspect that the Brits believe in British exceptionalism and the Greeks believe in Greek exceptionalism."

;0)

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Something bigger on 08/24/2014 17:11:10 MDT Print View

"Someone brave enough to do the right thing can't even make it past the primaries, Katharina. It is, as Craig said, a systemic problem. It is also well to remember that the president does not operate in a vacuum, and must work with Congress to accomplish anything. They, too, are part of a systemic problem, beholden to special interests, and will not get elected without having been vetted for loyalty to same.

Only the voters have the ability to change things."


He's made plenty of moves that not require (!!!!) working with Congress. He did not have to be the most secretive administration ever. He did not have to be the President that prosecuted more whistleblowers that all other presidents combined.
He should have gone for a one term position, instead he started running for his second term from day one.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re on 08/24/2014 17:13:18 MDT Print View

Like I have been saying: anyone seeking that kind of power does not get a break when it comes to doing the right thing, in whatever capacity one can.
Did he do all he could? No.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Something bigger on 08/24/2014 17:27:57 MDT Print View

"He's made plenty of moves that not require (!!!!) working with Congress. He did not have to be the most secretive administration ever. He did not have to be the President that prosecuted more whistleblowers that all other presidents combined.
He should have gone for a one term position, instead he started running for his second term from day one."

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending Obama. I am as disappointed as anyone at how he has turned out. That said, I have concluded I was in error in expecting anyone who got as far as he did to be any different that those who preceded him, except in the brains department. Perhaps. I view it as a systemic problem, like Craig, and part of how the system functions is to weed out those who do not fit into the system before they rise very far. Obama was a "made man" long before he got to the Oval Office.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re on 08/24/2014 17:34:41 MDT Print View

"Like I have been saying: anyone seeking that kind of power does not get a break when it comes to doing the right thing, in whatever capacity one can.
Did he do all he could? No."

Your idealism is laudable, but doomed to disappointment. Anyone seeking that kind of power has become suspect in my eyes, as the presidency has accumulated ever more power. "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely" as the axiom goes. I doubt any of them can tell right from wrong anymore, to tell you the truth. Nor would many of them care. In any case, the nature of the "right thing" is in considerable dispute here in America these days. Somewhere around 50% of the American People would disagree with your(and likely my) version of the "right thing". Sad but true, I fear. :(

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re on 08/24/2014 17:49:08 MDT Print View

"Your idealism is laudable, but doomed to disappointment. Anyone seeking that kind of power has become suspect in my eyes, as the presidency has accumulated ever more power. "Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely" as the axiom goes. I doubt any of them can tell right from wrong anymore, to tell you the truth. Nor would many of them care. In any case, the nature of the "right thing" is in considerable dispute here in America these days. Somewhere around 50% of the American People would disagree with your(and likely my) version of the "right thing". Sad but true, I fear. :("


I would rather expect a lot and continue to be disappointed than aim low.

Obama did have some chances to put a dent ( a leak) into this corrupt system. Not only did he not do that, he took some steps to further it all along.
To be clear, would Romney have done better? In my opinion no, even worse.

How about the disillusioned people not vote for a while and once there is enough of a percentage than the two parties might just get scared and some real shift happen.
That would take bravery too, taking a chance that might go wrong, but at least a chance of something good.


Tom, Obama had/has the chance to speak the truth, expose the corruption and speak honestly to the American people. That would have been worth more to me than anything he tried and was not able to do. He could have made real history. He wasted a chance to make a real difference.

Edited by Kat_P on 08/24/2014 18:04:13 MDT.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: America the Troublemaker? on 08/24/2014 19:16:23 MDT Print View

"I don't see the criticism of Obama"

Cornel West does.

"So that’s my first question, it’s a lot of ground to cover but how do you feel things have worked out since then, both with the economy and with this president? That was a huge turning point, that moment in 2008, and my own feeling is that we didn’t turn.

No, the thing is he posed as a progressive and turned out to be counterfeit. We ended up with a Wall Street presidency, a drone presidency, a national security presidency. The torturers go free. The Wall Street executives go free. The war crimes in the Middle East, especially now in Gaza, the war criminals go free. And yet, you know, he acted as if he was both a progressive and as if he was concerned about the issues of serious injustice and inequality and it turned out that he’s just another neoliberal centrist with a smile and with a nice rhetorical flair. And that’s a very sad moment in the history of the nation because we are—we’re an empire in decline. Our culture is in increasing decay. Our school systems are in deep trouble. Our political system is dysfunctional. Our leaders are more and more bought off with legalized bribery and normalized corruption in Congress and too much of our civil life. You would think that we needed somebody—a Lincoln-like figure who could revive some democratic spirit and democratic possibility.

That’s exactly what everyone was saying at the time.

That’s right. That’s true. It was like, “We finally got somebody who can help us turn the corner.” And he posed as if he was a kind of Lincoln.

Yeah. That’s what everyone was saying.

And we ended up with a brown-faced Clinton. Another opportunist. Another neoliberal opportunist. ..."

http://bit.ly/1qDjDIu

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Something bigger on 08/24/2014 20:30:29 MDT Print View

"part of how the system functions is to weed out those who do not fit into the system before they rise very far"

I don't know that Howard Dean would have been the solution, but

He made comments about regulating the media

Then he made that speech in a noisy room. They took took the audio from his mike which made him sound crazy, and they played it over and over and talked about him sounding crazy. "The Dean Scream".

yep, those that don't go along never make it

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re on 08/24/2014 20:40:10 MDT Print View

"Tom, Obama had/has the chance to speak the truth, expose the corruption and speak honestly to the American people. That would have been worth more to me than anything he tried and was not able to do. He could have made real history. He wasted a chance to make a real difference."

Yes, in theory, but in reality he was a "made man", and not about to buck the system.
It would have been worth a lot to me, too. you see, I voted FOR a candidate in 2008, for the first time in my life, as opposed to merely voting against his opponent, and was severely disappointed by his performance. In 2012, I voted against Romney. :(

You are still idealistic, and I commend you for it. I wish I could be there with you, but in all honesty, I have completely lost any remaining faith I had in my government after the last 6 years. I am adrift.