The best clothing combinations for backpacking or hiking?
Display Avatars Sort By:
Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
The best clothing combinations for backpacking or hiking? on 08/31/2007 20:05:56 MDT Print View

BP Clothing

I created this chart to graphically demonstrate why I believe a lightweight hoody and a windshirt is the optimal clothing combination for most backpacking or hiking. For backpacking, this combination allows an effective 46F on-the-fly thermal comfort adjustment in the general range of 46F to 0F. For hiking, this combination allows an effective on-the-fly 25F thermal comfort adjustment in the general range of 69F to 44F.

Chart Label Descriptions:
Hot Ensemble – Hot weather ensemble consisting of briefs, light shorts, short sleeve Capilene crew shirt, socks, and trail runners (Icl clo = .30)

Mid Ensemble – Middle temperate ensemble consisting of briefs, long Supplex nylon pants, long sleeve Capilene crew shirt, socks, and trail runners (Icl clo = .60)

R1Mid – The Mid Ensemble with the long sleeve Capilene crew shirt exchanged for the R1 Hoody and a wind shirt. The R1 hoody can achieve the same clo as the Capilene long sleeve crew when the sleeves are pushed up, and the zip is at the lowest point (Icl clo = .60 – 1.10)

R1Mid+Vest – The R1Mid ensemble with the addition of a Polarguard Delta Micropuff vest (Icl clo = 1.80)

R1Mid+Pull - The R1Mid ensemble with the addition of a Polarguard Delta Micropuff pullover (Icl clo = 2.02)

R1Mid+P+V - The R1Mid ensemble with the addition of a Polarguard Delta Micropuff pullover and vest (Icl clo = 2.68)

R1Mid+DJ - The R1Mid ensemble with the addition of the New Balance Fugu down jacket which has 1.5” loft (Icl clo = 4.29)

3 Season SB – The REI Sub Kilo, which is a representative 3 season sleeping bag (Icl clo = 8.00)


The backpack MET is a range that varies between 7 and 9.

The light area between the Mid Ensemble’s MET line and the R1Mid’s ensemble MET line represents the dynamic adjustability afforded by the stretch fabric, the hand warmer function, and the deep neck vent.

High loft insulating options are only used for non backpacking or hiking functions.

The hot weather ensemble is suggested for backpacking in effective temperatures greater than about 45F and hiking in effective temperature greater than about 78F.

Substitution with other brands of hooded windshirts will not effect the clothing ensemble Icl value

The dashed horizontal clothing ensemble clo lines can be adjusted for different hoodys using the following adjustment factors:

Ibex Shak (0 clo)
Smartwool hoody (-.035 clo)
Ragged Mountain or Wild Things Polartech Powerstrecth (+.050 clo)
Any brand Polartec 100 (+.068 clo)
Any brand Polartec 200 (+.115 clo)
Any brand Polartec 300 (+.170 clo)

If a clothing ensemble is worn in a sleeping bag, the sleeping bag's temperature rating is increased by the ensemble's Icl clo value. For example, wearing the R1Mid+Vest ensemble in a 3 season bag with a clo value of 7.32 will increase it to 9.12 yielding a 17F improvement best case. This assumes enough space in the bag such that the clothing ensemble loft is not compromised.

Edited by richard295 on 09/02/2007 22:10:14 MDT.

larry savage
(pyeyo) - F

Locale: pacific northwest
any chance on 08/31/2007 21:16:42 MDT Print View

Any chance you could do this in celsius/metric ergs.[just kidding]
This is a very nice piece of work which I've cut and pasted and blown up a bit.
We really need people like you a lot more then we need people like me explaining to the newbies, I'm way too much from the let's through some clothes on and get going/what do you mean your cold school of hiking. Again, nicely thought out.

Frank Perkins
(fperkins)

Locale: North East
Re: The best clothing combinations for backpacking or hiking? on 09/02/2007 14:28:37 MDT Print View

Thanks for putting this together Rich. You state that the best combo is the r1 hoody and a windshirt. However, your R1Mid+Vest or R1Mid+Pull, etc do not mention a windshirt. Is that thought that if it's windy, you simply complement the R1 "package" with a wind shirt?

I'm thinking this is what I'm going to try for my next Fall trip where temps are going to be 70-80s during the day and then dipping into 40-50's at night.

- Capilene 1 Tshirt
- R1 Hoody
- Micropuff vest
- Houdini wind shirt

Your thoughts?

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Re: The best clothing combinations for backpacking or hiking? on 09/02/2007 15:49:59 MDT Print View

Frank - The windshirt is present in all configurations starting with the R1Mid... thanks for pointing out the omission. I will edit the original post for the R1Mid description to add the words "and a wind shirt".

Your clothing list looks ideally suited for your trip.

Edited by richard295 on 09/02/2007 15:58:09 MDT.

Roleigh Martin
(marti124) - MLife

Locale: Moderator-JohnMuirTrail Yahoo Group
Urls for the chosen R1 Hoody and Windshirt on 09/02/2007 16:45:16 MDT Print View

Can you please provide two URLs, one for your chosen R1 Hoody (which I have not heard of before) and the Windshirt you used?

Thanks!

Jon Rhoderick
(hotrhoddudeguy) - F - M

Locale: New England
Re: Urls for the chosen R1 Hoody and Windshirt on 09/02/2007 17:36:18 MDT Print View

The R1 hoody is made by Patagonia. There was an original version with an offset zip, and then the present one which is at this link... http://tinyurl.com/2o9uzr

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Urls for the chosen R1 Hoody and Windshirt on 09/02/2007 19:02:33 MDT Print View

I used a Patagonia Houdini windshirt and a Patagonia R1 hoody for my analysis but, the brand isn't critical to the thermal performance concepts. The Patagonia URL is Patagonia

There are other combinations of garments which will provide comparable thermal performance flexibility. For example, the Montane Litespeed windshirt, in combination with the Ibex Shak wool hoody, would be about the same.

Edited by richard295 on 09/02/2007 19:04:22 MDT.

Mark Verber
(verber) - MLife

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: The best clothing combinations for backpacking or hiking? on 09/02/2007 19:52:43 MDT Print View

Great graph and well thought out clothing system!

I would note that some people run hotter or colder depending on their personal physiology. The graph look spot on for the people I know who run on the cool side (mostly california natives).

Provided I have had adaquate food and water the clo indicated on this chart would have me overheating. I use very similar clothing system, though mine is roughly 1/2 the clo of Richard's, but I wear mine in similar conditions / activity levels.

My substitutes are

R1 Hoody --> LS Featherweight PowerDry Zip Neck
Houdini = Houdini
Micropuff Vest --> Thermawrap Vest + PolarBuff
Micropuff Pullover --> Thermawrap Jacket + GoLite SnowCap

For example, at sitting / talking activity level I am good with just my featherweight shirt and a windshirt to around 55F. If I add a vest and a hat I am happy to around 30F.

Brett .
(Brett1234) - F

Locale: CA
Richard, question on the graph? on 09/02/2007 20:12:30 MDT Print View

Richard,
Sorry, I don't understand your graph, but I want to.. Does it show the temperature range for comfort at some constant clo? Because it seems to have lines of constant MET, not clo.

It plots temp vs clo, and there is a line of with constant slope for each clothing combination.. This seems to show the clothing is suitable for some constant MET (eg 1.5) at the combinations of temp and clo. But the MET line tracks along a range of clo values, which should be constant, right?
Shouldn't each clothing combination line be at constant clo and show the MET to be comfortably warm at each Temp?

I know.. there are no stupid questions, only stupid people, I hope I phrased my question ok.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Re: The best clothing combinations for backpacking or hiking? on 09/02/2007 21:15:38 MDT Print View

Mark - I alway appreciate your input! I frequently reference your Web site for information and also point others to it.

You are representative of the younger and/or more fit individuals will need less insulation than the theorectical average used by all International Standards. I designed my chart for the International Standard male. This guy is 154.3 lb, 68.9" tall, 30 years old, a body surface area of 19.86 ft2, and a BMR W/m2 of 44.5. This is the same standard that most of the 50 thermal dummies in the world use for all thermal testing and standards work. For those people wanting more customization in the values, they can adjust them for their unique BMR.

Based on some of the questions that preceeded yours, I added some additional information to end of my original chart explanation prior to this post. Hopefully that information and this post will make this topic easier for people to understand.

Mark Verber
(verber) - MLife

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Richard, question on the graph? on 09/02/2007 21:25:37 MDT Print View

The graphs shows two trends:

1) That the higher the level of activity (MET) the less insulation is required

2) The the lower the temperature, the more insulation is required.

I believe the way to use the graph is select a temp (say the low temp you expect to see on a trip). This selects the X axis. Next select an activity level (say sitting/talking). Find where the line for activity crosses your selected temp. That gives you the Y axis position which would suggest according to equations Richard has been working with how much insulation you need. The right side lists CLO. The left side is the clothing combinations that Richard uses to achieve the CLO values.

Mark Verber
(verber) - MLife

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Re: Re: The best clothing combinations for backpacking or hiking? on 09/02/2007 21:32:09 MDT Print View

Hmmm... I wish was was a younger / fitter individual than the theoretical average... but I am more than 15 years older and 25lbs heavier. Actually the younger / fitter folks I backpack with seem to need more insulation that I do. Perhaps the additional body fat makes it easier for me to keep warm. Seems to work for the Inuit.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Richard, question on the graph? on 09/02/2007 21:56:55 MDT Print View

Brett - Question 1) Does it show the temperature range for comfort at some constant clo?

Answer 1. No. Temperature and METs are the two input variables, the clo value is the dependent output variable. Each yellow line uses a constant MET value (shown on the line's label) in combination with the temperature variable to generate the yellow line plot.

Question 2) ...the MET line tracks along a range of clo values, which should be a constant, right?

Answer 2) No. The clo values are the output values for the input values of MET and temperature. Each dashed red line lists the clo value for a representative clothing ensemble. The calculations for the dashed red lines are an independent set of calculations.

In summary the charts yellow lines shows the temperature dependent clo required for each of the 7 levels of exertion (METs) typical of backpacking trip. The red dotted lines show the clo provided by common backpacking clothing ensembles. The intersections of these lines show you what activity and what temperature the clothing is adequate for. You need to have a clothing ensemble clo value that is equal to or higher than what is required for a given MET level and temperature.

It is easy to make things look complicated; the difficult part is to explain things in the clearest and simplest terms. Your questions show me that I need to do a better job of communicating.

Edited by richard295 on 09/02/2007 22:01:55 MDT.

Brett .
(Brett1234) - F

Locale: CA
Thanks Richard, I understand on 09/03/2007 01:17:02 MDT Print View

So I can enter the chart with my forcast day and night lows and get the required clo's as output; (at the METs for day hiking and night resting, etc..) Got it. This chart is another keeper.

Joshua Mitchell
(jdmitch) - F

Locale: Kansas
2 Qs: Use of Icebreaker Nomad? Wet Correction? on 09/03/2007 10:55:12 MDT Print View

Richard,

Using an IB Nomad, I'm getting a clo value of 9.4379279 (320 g/m2 converted to oz/yd2) * .08 = 0.755034232, which would put it roughly on par with the Smartwool Hoody, correct (aka a correction factor of -0.35 clo below the R1)?

Also, something I haven't heard asked before, but other than the obvious need for staying dry as much as possible, should one adjust these values if it's likely to be wet (if nothing else, under most 'wet' conditions, you'll have some wetting due to condensation)? Aka, should one allow for a bit of extra clo to account for any clo reduction from the wetter weather?

Edited by jdmitch on 09/03/2007 10:59:28 MDT.

Jon Rhoderick
(hotrhoddudeguy) - F - M

Locale: New England
Also confused on 09/03/2007 21:50:40 MDT Print View

Where is the base data (clo values) for all these clothing types coming from? I was considering asking a really obnoxious question for everything I own, but I hope I could figure it all out on my own.

John S.
(jshann) - F
Re: Also confused on 09/04/2007 07:06:08 MDT Print View

99.9% of hikers don't know the clo values of their gear and don't care. Just bring clothing to stay warm and dry and you should make it through your trip.

Frank Perkins
(fperkins)

Locale: North East
Re: Re: Also confused on 09/04/2007 07:55:24 MDT Print View

Matt, your post makes sense if we were on the backpacker.com forums.

Bill B
(bill123) - MLife
I don't have a CLO what this means! on 09/04/2007 09:08:51 MDT Print View

I'd like to understand what the chart is saying but I don't know what a ClO or a MET is. I know what gear works for me to roughly what temp. range.

For instance. I can start out at a trailhead in mid 70 deg's with a s/s wool t-shirt & long softshell pants. By the time I'm sitting on a summit, it can be 40 deg. w/ a 40 kt wind and I'm still ok at long as I have a Houdini. If I plan on lingering in a windy spot for a while, I'll need a light hat & gloves. Any colder and I'll put on my Cocoon pullover & possibly a shell.

While I didn't need to know what a CLO or a MET was to figure that out, I'd still be interested in learning. Any help would be appreciated.

Jaiden .
(jaiden) - F
Various clo questions, mostly for Richard on 09/04/2007 09:14:55 MDT Print View

Richard, count me in as another who devours your posts eagerly. I'm a total newbie and am enjoying your "classes." Please don't anyone else rely in the information I give in an effort to ask my questions.

I understand this graph, but I have a few questions about the calculations needed to create one of my own.

First, in calculating MET (based on the url you gave out earlier), I get a BMR of 1820 for me and 1281 for my wife. I divided by 24 (hours) which gave me 42.1 and 35.6 respectively. If I'm correct, this means that neither of us are as "warm" as the average person. This doesn't surprise me for her (I swear she's a reptile), but I'm always warm, so it makes me suspect that I did something wrong. When I do get the right value, does this just become a linear scaling factor for the graphs you post? In other words, how do I know how much more clo my wife needs than the average person?

Second, I am a little confused at trying to calculate the clo of garments that I own. Since I have some of the same items you do, I should be able to get things to line up better than I do. Here's how I'm calculating clo for an item:

Take the item weight, subtract noninsulating weight, or otherwise calculate the fill weight. Multiply this insulating weight by the clo/oz factor from your other post. Multiply this value by the percentage of the body that is covered by the item. Please let me know if this is wrong.

I do find different numbers from this url http://repositories.cdlib.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1046&context=cedr/cbe than I see in your posts for the percentage covered.
I get:
body part area m2 %
legs 0.1771 0.120157406
feet 0.0883 0.059909085
thighs 0.33 0.223895787
crotch 0.174 0.118054142
head 0.11 0.074631929
hands 0.0791 0.053667142
arms 0.099 0.067168736
shoulders 0.1514 0.102720673
chest 0.138 0.093629147
back 0.127 0.086165954

Which when I figure a hoodie covers 60% of the head and 40% of the hands gives:
item %
pants 0.462107334
jacket 0.34968451
hoodie 0.415930524

These aren't big differences, but I thought I'd share my calculations.

Third, I recently bought a Nuptse vest for my wife. http://www.altrec.com/shop/detail/13916/
which I'm guessing is around 14 oz of 700 fill down. I see that you have 850 fill listed in your table of clo/oz, but not the lowly 700 fill, and I can't seem to find that information anywhere. Do you have it?

For those that missed it, here's the table I'm using, courtesy of Richard:
clo/oz
Cotton 0.04
Merino wool 0.08
Polartec 100,200, 300 0.16
Polarguard 3D 0.63
Exceloft 0.68
Polarguard Delta 0.68
Climashield HL 0.68
Down (550 fill) 0.7
Primaloft Sport 0.74
Climashield Combat 0.79
Climashield XP 0.82
Primaloft One 0.84
Down (850+ fill) 2.53

Frank Perkins
(fperkins)

Locale: North East
Re: Various clo questions, mostly for Richard on 09/04/2007 09:26:40 MDT Print View

"First, in calculating MET (based on the url you gave out earlier), I get a BMR of 1820 for me and 1281 for my wife."

I searched and couldn't find the link to calculating MET. Can you post the URL?

Thanks!

Jaiden .
(jaiden) - F
BMR url on 09/04/2007 09:28:04 MDT Print View

Sure!
http://home.fuse.net/clymer/bmi/

Frank Perkins
(fperkins)

Locale: North East
Re: Various clo questions, mostly for Richard on 09/04/2007 09:37:46 MDT Print View

First, in calculating MET (based on the url you gave out earlier), I get a BMR of 1820 for me and 1281 for my wife. I divided by 24 (hours) which gave me 42.1 and 35.6 respectively

1820/24 = 75.8 Did you do the math wrong?

Jaiden .
(jaiden) - F
BMR, W/m2? on 09/04/2007 09:42:28 MDT Print View

I think I already see part of my problem. The BMR from that url is in kcals/day, but Richard shows BMR as W/m^2.

This confuses me somewhat, since the calculations on the url take into account body surface area. I tried converting kcal/day to Watts/hr but I get 881, and 881/1.95m^2 (my surface area, per the url) gives me 452, which is clearly wrong.

So, I still need help.

Jaiden .
(jaiden) - F
BMR/MET, ugh on 09/04/2007 09:45:30 MDT Print View

"First, in calculating MET (based on the url you gave out earlier), I get a BMR of 1820 for me and 1281 for my wife. I divided by 24 (hours) which gave me 42.1 and 35.6 respectively

1820/24 = 75.8 Did you do the math wrong?"

First, yes, see my last post. Second, I then divided by 1.8, which is the average m^2. Either way I think it's wrong in several different ways.

sigh.

Joshua Mitchell
(jdmitch) - F

Locale: Kansas
BMR Calcs... on 09/04/2007 10:06:07 MDT Print View

If you take a look at the following exchanges, specifically my questions, it should help.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=8931&startat=20

Realize that and out put of 1000 (kilocalories per day) = 48-49 watts. (1 820 (kilocalories per day) = 88.1351852 watts)

You're 'average' male has a resting wattage of 80.1 W. This is what Richards graph would likely have been based on. Whatever YOUR BMR winds up being, you can more or less correct the amount of Clo required by inverting the relationship. (aka people with higher BMRs require less Clo to stay comfortably warm)

Of course, this doesn't get into personal preference of what is considered 'comfortable'. These calcs should be used as a starting point.

Edited by jdmitch on 09/04/2007 10:07:16 MDT.

Jaiden .
(jaiden) - F
BMR getting closer on 09/04/2007 10:32:18 MDT Print View

OK, I think I've got the W/m2 now.

I found:
1 kilocalorie / hr = 1.16222222 watts

So my kcal/day BMR of 1820 divided by 24 hours, times the above gives me 88 and my wife 62. This divided by m^2 gives us 45.2 and 42.75 respectively. Not much difference, but I can vouch for a huge difference in our relative comfort levels.

John S.
(jshann) - F
Re: Re: Re: Also confused on 09/04/2007 11:04:51 MDT Print View

Touche' mon frere (?sp). Just trying to rile you CLOers up. Don't pay me no attention. I'll be over at the backpacker.com forums if you need me.

John

Edited by jshann on 09/04/2007 11:05:29 MDT.

Jon Rhoderick
(hotrhoddudeguy) - F - M

Locale: New England
Re: Re: Re: Re: Also confused on 09/04/2007 11:49:18 MDT Print View

OK
Sooo I've done know how to do the calculations for the BMR now, but how do you do percentage of surface area? I saw a little of that lab report, but I don't really wanna read through all of it if someone could do the equation.

any help?

PS, we should get a copper mannequin for BPLs birthday or for Festavus.

Edited by hotrhoddudeguy on 09/04/2007 12:10:54 MDT.

Jaiden .
(jaiden) - F
how I calculated surface area % on 09/04/2007 11:57:39 MDT Print View

Well, I put all the measurements into a spreadsheet, adding left/right sides and then added them up for the total surface area. Then for each body part, I did a simple formula which divided the number for each part by the total. this gives me a % of the total, which I'm assuming is relatively standard, even if the actual area isn't. Then I add up the parts that make up a garment.

Here's the table I got, with some examples of items. I guessed that a hoodie with thumb holes covers 60% of the head (not the face) and 40% of the hands (not the fingers).

body part % area m2 % item %
legs 0.1771 0.120157406 pants 0.462107334
feet 0.0883 0.059909085 jacket 0.34968451
thighs 0.33 0.223895787 hoodie 0.415930524
crotch 0.174 0.118054142 vest 0.282515774
head 0.11 0.074631929
hands 0.0791 0.053667142
arms 0.099 0.067168736
shoulders0.1514 0.102720673
chest 0.138 0.093629147
back 0.127 0.086165954
0
0
0
0
0
0
1.4739 1

Jon Rhoderick
(hotrhoddudeguy) - F - M

Locale: New England
Re: how I calculated surface area % on 09/04/2007 12:22:48 MDT Print View

so is that the mannequin's measurements or yours? I suppose there would be large differences for each person, especially between the genders in the chest region.

Jaiden .
(jaiden) - F
Re: Re: how I calculated surface area % on 09/04/2007 12:44:00 MDT Print View

The mannequin's... I have better things to do than measure my surface area to 4 decimal places. I figure that though the area itself changes, the proportions probably don't very much. Besides, it doesn't look like she has much up top to skew the chest percentage.

William Webber
(micwebbpl) - F
Great Explanation, My Anecdotal Experience on 09/05/2007 10:19:41 MDT Print View

Basically you seem to be saying you don't need a lot of heavy clothing to keep warm! An R1 and Houdini are pretty minimal. Your chart is supported by my own experience in summer hiking to the High Sierra Camps in Yosemite (near Tuolumne), although I have some variations noted below.

Here are my personal variations:

I never hike in shorts and short sleeves - too much sun exposure for my taste. I use a sun umbrella from Go-Lite to keep the sun off me. This also doubles up as rain protection in a summer shower. I wear a long sleeve, silkweight Patagonia crew neck tee shirt (I think they call this Capilene 1 now). For pants I wear long pants, light Supplex nylon pants from Ex Officio, but hemmed high, about the length of knickers - to just cover the tops of my socks. This lets the air circulate over my legs. The long sleeve tee shirt is theoretically hotter than a short sleeve, but with the umbrella most of the heat is kept off me so it balances out. The "hot spot" I have is under the pack, but I try to use a Breeze from Go Lite and just shift it around to let one half or the other of my back dry out. I've been tempted to try one of the vent panel backpacks, but they are pricey.

The preceding outfit is plenty to keep me warm; on a summer high sierra hike, the only time I need to add anything is heading early out of camp, at dawn, when a nylon windshirt helps - I like the old, discontinued Wild Things Gear nylon windshirt, it isn't too hot.

If temperatures have been trending cooler, I will wear a zip neck, lightweight (Capilene 2, nowadays) long sleeve as my base layer, and back it up with either a Capilene short sleeve, crew neck tee shirt worn over in lieu of a vest, or a tank top Capilene (they have these from time to time). Finally, the windshirt. As you noted, it doesn't take much to increment the comfort level back up. If I am in an urban environment and its cold, each incremental layer has to be a lot thicker, but when I am hiking the incremental levels are a lot thinner - and the "warmth" generated by the higher metabolic level triggered by hiking tends to carry through after I reach camp, at leas for a while.

I end up carrying a second windshirt, a Houdini, as my rain gear. I try not to wear this unless it is raining, to preserve its water repellency. It isn't perfectly waterproof, but I follow the theory that while hiking I'll just be evaporating off any wet through anyway. This approach might not work in the fall in New England, but it's been fine so far at Yosemite.

I end up carrying a THIRD windshirt (good thing these are light!) as a "vapor barrier" for sleeping. I use one of the original Patagonia Dragonflys, notorious for their poor breathing, which in this context is a big help. It has a hood, and I wear this over my head, with or without a watch cap. I find the Go Lite Snow Cap a little hot in summer.

The one part of the equation I haven't nailed yet, is what to wear to bed to "up" the temperature rating of my quilt. I like to wear enough go to sleep with the quilt just over my legs, and then adjust the quilt up higher as it cools off during the night.

Quite frankly, the R1 hoody sounds very appealing as the "missing link" in my kit. It would obviate the need for a watch cap and Snow Cap; it looks good at the dinner table; and I could wear it under my windshirt around camp in a drizzle, or over the windshirt when sleeping (for the vapor barrier effect). So far I have been experimenting with synthetic fill vests and pullovers, and with heavier Polarguard like the Body Rug from Patagonia (a very high loft, equivalent I suspect to 300 but lighter in weight).

The only conclusion I have come to over five seasons of hiking, is that you need a different "kit" and approach for "active" trips and "take it easy" trips.

If you are going to be very active, with little time spent idling around camp outside of a sleeping bag, then every item of clothing needs to be much thinner. Silkweight for baselayer, R1 for insulation, a Micropuff Pullover for extreme insulation.

If you are going to go to Camp Curry in the dead of winter and rent an unheated tent cabin - as I have done - every item of clothing needs to be MUCH thicker - mid-weight zip neck tee, R2, down parka or thick synthetic parka. Otherwise the cold weather coupled with the inactivity will gradually suck the heat out of you and leave you miserable.

In any setting, though, layers seem infinitely better than just wearing a tee shirt for the sunny hike and carrying a thick down parka for camp, which is the main point of the post, I suspect.

Still, I like the elegant simplicity - lighweight baselayer, midweight (R1) hoody, windshirt. That's a slick analysis.

Phil Stetz
(pstetz) - F
Various questions, mostly for Richard on 09/05/2007 12:14:58 MDT Print View

Richard - This is great work. I've been following the thread for a number of days now and I've learned a lot about the details and science of staying warm. I have a few comments / questions:

1) Would you consider publishing the actual spreadsheet? Or re-posting a larger graph w/ a different background? I'm having a hard time reading some of the details.

2) What about wind chill? Would this factor into any of the equations? Or do we assume this is not a factor due to the wind shirt?

3) Gloves? Or do they only contribute to 'comfort' level since they are only covering extremities and not insulating the core? Same for a fleece hat. I suspect this would contribute more to warmth than gloves due to the blood vessels in that area. Or do we assume this is covered by the hood?

Thanks again for the great post. You saved me a lot of discomfort this weekend! I generally consider myself to be warm natured, but now I will bring some extra clothes for insurance.

Jon Rhoderick
(hotrhoddudeguy) - F - M

Locale: New England
Re: Various questions, mostly for Richard on 09/05/2007 12:22:03 MDT Print View

another two to add to that list of questions

4) what about lower legs, I dont think youd be very warm with a down jacket and supplex pants?

5) is the down jacket's loft single layer or double?

This thread is really starting to grow on me.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
The optimal clothing combinations for backpacking or hiking? on 09/05/2007 17:15:50 MDT Print View

Improved clarity clo

I will go through the posts and try and answer the outstanding questions in a subsequent post. But first, I wanted to address the common high level abstraction question. In other words, FEED A MAN A FISH, FEED HIM FOR A DAY. TEACH A MAN TO FISH, FEED HIM FOR LIFE.

The most practical way for a backpacker to determine the dry Iclu clo value for an ensemble is to measure the thickness of each garment component; multiply the thickness by 4 clo; and then multiply by the percentage of an average body it covers. Add these individual garment calculations together to calculate the Icl clo for your clothing ensemble. For high loft garments, the materials actual clo per inch can be used for a little higher accuracy but is not normally necessary for base layer garments.

The simplest thickness measurement is done by placing the garment on a table; placing one wooden ruler on top of the garment; measuring the double thickness with the other wooden ruler; and then dividing this value by 2 to determine the single fabric thickness.

The key standard mannequin values are 80% BSA for a one piece suit; 54.5% BSA for a hoody; 48% BSA for a jacket; 36% BSA for a vest; 22% BSA for a PFD or singlet; 7% BSA for shoes; 7% for complete head coverage; and 5% BSA for gloves.

Malden Mills makes 25 different variants of Polartec 200 fabrics. Malden Mills specs range from 13.5 oz per liner yard to 20.5 for the different fabrics. Compounding this variance is that each manufacturer can use different face fabrics and combinations of fleece types in the construction of a single garment. The overall thickness is critical in determining the thermal resistance of a garment.

The only completely accurate way to measure a garment’s dry Iclu clo value is on a thermal manikin in a lab. Each manufactures garments would have to be tested because each of the various combination of fleece and face fabrics used. A single garment test costs on the average of $600. Even if a manufacturer goes to the expense of measuring a garment’s Iclu clo, they rarely release that information. The manufacturers marketing department prefers to be differentiated on more defensible features such as brand name, colors, or styles. The North Face lists in their “Fleeces and Softshell” products 30 unique models for men and 33 for women. Every one of these garments would have unique clo values as would the range from every other manufacturer in the world.

The ISO 9920 international standard’s data base is excellent for conventional street clothes but is worthless for technical clothing used for backpacking. For example, the ISO 9920 standard lists the Iclu clo value for a down jacket as .55 Iclu clo. Even the 650 fill down jackets used by the Air Forces averages about 1.05” thick and are manikin tested at 2.2 Iclu clo. The 1 ½ thick 800 fill jackets are the standard for cold weather backpacking. The only way you will get the Iclu clo for the ensemble in your closest is by calculating it yourself.

Edited by richard295 on 09/05/2007 20:09:52 MDT.

Jim Sweeney
(swimjay) - MLife

Locale: Northern California
definition of terms. on 09/05/2007 19:24:26 MDT Print View

Here's a website that lists the definition of ICL (CL0), many other terms, and gives a program for computing required insulation (though this might be the site that Richard considers not that useful for backpacking):

http://wwwold.eat.lth.se/Forskning/Termisk/Termisk_HP/Klimatfiler/IREQ2002alfa.htm

I think this is an extraordinarily valuable thread, and many thanks to Richard, though I confess I'm not at all up to speed.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: 2 Qs: Use of Icebreaker Nomad? Wet Correction? on 09/06/2007 07:34:45 MDT Print View

Joshua M. -

Q1: IB Nomad clo value?
A The short answer is the Ibex Shak is 390 g/m2 and measured .080 loft. The IB Nomad fabric weight is 320 g/m2 and measured .080”. 320 / 390 * .080” = .066” or a Iclu clo value that is 18% less than the Shak, which is the same as the R1 hoody.

The long answer is that determining the clo value of a stretchy technical base layer such as Merino wool, Power Dry, or Power Stretch is a little more complicated than other conventional insulation pieces like jackets and vests. For the R1 Hoody, the applicable ISO 9920 formula is Iclu = .43 X 10-2Acov + 1.4 Hfab x Acov which would yield a clo of .4. Acov is the body area percentage as a whole number and Hfab is the thickness in meters. When older style base layers, like cotton or wool, are tested on manikins, they closely match the formula. If you want to be conservative, just use this formula for your base layer.

I used an Iclu clo value for the R1 Hoody of .539 in my chart. I did this because my testing showed that the R1 hoody’s stretchy material and unique cut resulted in no fabric compression and an optimal uniform air gap at the skin. Also the uniquely tailored balaclava style hood was far better tailored and warmer around the neck and head than any other style I tested. Manikin testing doesn’t reflect the fact that the vessels in the neck and head don’t vasoconstrict like the rest of the body. So real world testing would be higher than the manikin test showed.

I kludged this formula for use in my chart to represent what I experienced.

R1 Calc

So if your IB Nomad fits every part of your body, including your neck and head perfectly, then adjusting from the high .536 Iclu clo value of the R1 Hoody makes sense. If not, use the more conservative ISO formula I provided above.

My testing showed that the Smartwool hoody’s hood and neck area had large billowing air gaps and so the standard ISO formula is applicable. My Ibex Shak was designed similar to the R1 for similar warmth. My Ragged Mountain hoody has a bad fitting neck area. The air gap fit is only an issue in the base layer. Having the rest of your layers fit with gaps doesn’t generally reduce the thermal comfort level.

The ISO formula above generally works well for base layers and conventional street clothing. For high loft insulation layers, the formula I previously provided works best (4 clo per inch x loft in inches x BSA%). As I mentioned previously, the accuracy is improved if you know the actual clo per inch for the material type and use this value.

Q2:…should one adjust these values if it's likely to be wet?

A2: For Merino wool and Polarguard, you should build in a safety tolerance. For polypropylene or polyester base layers and Primaloft insulation it isn’t necessary.

Edited by richard295 on 09/06/2007 07:43:25 MDT.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Also confused on 09/06/2007 07:59:35 MDT Print View

Johnathon R -

Q: Where are the clo values coming from?
A: For street clothes, the ISO 9920 data base. For technical base layers, the ISO 9920 formula for determining the clo value from the body surface area % (BSA%). For exceptionally engineered base layers such as the R1 Hoody, my testing showed that they were warmer than the ISO formula would indicate and so I created an additional formula. It should be noted that the ISO formula shows a .080 base layer hoody should provide .4 clo. The manikin tests ran by the Armed services on their clothing showed that there best base layer top tested .4 clo without a hood. So I don't think it is too much of a stretch for me to estimate the R1 hoody at .539.

After you have figured it out for your chosen clothing ensemble, please share with us how the numbers come out and how they compare with your real world experience.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Re: Also confused on 09/06/2007 08:09:27 MDT Print View

Matt F. -

I agree with you that 99.9% of hikers don't know the clo values of their gear and don't care. I would love to understand why they don't care. I suspect that it is because they believe that there is no EASY way to get the answer. What are your suggestions for how to better present this type of information so that more than .1% would find it beneficial?

Edited by richard295 on 09/06/2007 08:10:51 MDT.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: I don't have a CLO what this means! on 09/06/2007 08:40:35 MDT Print View

Bill -

Clo is the insulation provided. Clo is normally used for clothing insulation because it is relatively easy for people to understand that 1 clo is the warmth provided by a mens business suit.

clo picture 1

clo picute 2

1 MET is the amount of calories you are burning and consequently the amount of heat you are generating when you are in a prone rest position. All other activities are represented as multiples of this calorie expenditure / heat expenditure. You are only comfortable when the heat generated is the heat lost.

met picture

Thanks for helping me understand that I should have started by defining these terms.

Edited by richard295 on 09/06/2007 08:42:42 MDT.

john flanagan
(jackfl) - F

Locale: New England
Re CLO confusion on 09/06/2007 08:53:08 MDT Print View

Richard - I can tell you why I don't pay much attention to this level of detail, especially with regards to clothing...

Primarily, there is a limit to how much obsessing about gear that I want to do. The CLO value of base layers as an example goes beyond that threshold. It's the same reason that I have no aspiration to be super duper uber light - I don't have the patience for it.

I want a flexible clothing system that meets a wide range of conditions with a reasonably small gear closet. My (possible mis-)perception is that you take a more honed approach and (my guess is)have invested more to create options that meet more specific environmental conditions.

You ask the engineering question - what is the optimal solution? I ask - what do I have that will get 'er done? You conclude that hoody plus windshirt is an optimal solution for hiking in dry cool to cold weather. I concluded a long while ago that a baselayer and windshirt works great most of the time when it's chilly. Not having a hoody and owning a few wool caps - I conclude "good enough". Different process - similar solution.

It's not that I don't learn from you and others who plan in greater detail... I just don't invest as much in finding the "best" solution.

Edited by jackfl on 09/06/2007 09:03:29 MDT.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Various clo questions, mostly for Richard on 09/06/2007 09:03:55 MDT Print View

Jaiden - MET values are available at for almost all activities. Just pick a number from this data base

MET Database

I answered your clo calculation question in a prior post answering another person with a similar question.

The average clo per inch for insulations is 4. 800+ down fill is 6.562 clo per inch if it is fully fluffed. You need to use clo/inch and not clo/oz for the Iclu clo calculation. If you don't know what the actual clo per inch is, just use the average which is 4 (3.906 to be more exact).

Edited by richard295 on 09/06/2007 09:12:32 MDT.

Joshua Mitchell
(jdmitch) - F

Locale: Kansas
Re: Re: 2 Qs: Use of Icebreaker Nomad? Wet Correction? on 09/06/2007 10:56:55 MDT Print View

Richard,

Thanks for the reply, I'm pretty sure I follow it, but if you'd stick with me I want to paraphrase it back to you to be sure I understand.

1) From a purely material point of view, 320 g/m2 Merino is approximately equal to R1 material when it comes to material Iclu clo calculations.
1 alt) An alternate reading of your sentence would be that 390 g/m2 = R1 (aka Shak = R1)... so from a materials point of view 320 g/m2 ~ 88% R1

2) ISO specifies a standard hoody BSA% for use in the clo calculations. These calculations Smartwool hoody conforms to this pretty well, as the SW Hoody fits much like a standard ISO Hoody. However because of superior design the Shak and R1 Hoody outperform ISO Hoody predictions (one could consider this to be an increase in effective BSA%).

3)If the Nomad fits better / closer than a standard street hoody, treating it as a Smartwool hoody would be 'conservative'. If it's more loose-fitting around the neck (as is the SW Hoody), treating it as a SW would be 'equivalent'.
3 note) By my recollection the SW Hoody is ~ 320 g/m as well. If this is not the case (aka the nomad fabric is lighter than the SW Hoody fabric), then I would replace 'conservative' with 'equivalent' and 'equivalent' with 'optimistic'.

Of note using the ISO Formula the SW Hoody comes to about a 0.50 Iclu?
Also, so clarifications on the ISO Hoody Forumla:
A) Which is the correct placement of parenthesis.
Iclu = (.43 X 10)-2Acov + (1.4 Hfab x Acov)
Iclu = .43 X (10-2Acov) + (1.4 Hfab x Acov)
B) "Acov is the body area percentage as a whole number and Hfab is the thickness in meters" what you mean is that for Acov, is should use MY body's total surface area (found from the BMI calculator page) x the ISO '54.5% BSA for a hoody', the Hfab I can measure with rulers.

EDIT - I just realized that those numbers presume a certain body size (total surface area) do they not? Though of course, if I simply wanted to estimate it, as long as I adjust the Clo needed for my BMR compared to the average male BMR thatn I'll have a pretty good 'starting point' for estimating my ensemble needs.

Edited by jdmitch on 09/06/2007 10:59:45 MDT.

John S.
(jshann) - F
Re: Re: Re: Also confused on 09/06/2007 12:36:42 MDT Print View

Richard, anybody that knows me..knows I am full of bull much of the time and joke around alot. Some of my posts are of the brutal honesty type that do not necessarily go over well with others.

I honestly had not heard of clo until you had mentioned it in the past. I guess I'm like Jack Flanagan who doesn't worry much about that part. Not that it doesn't have meaning, and it does, because it allows someone to calculate how much insulation the gear provides. So, it is important.

Why do they not care? Maybe only because those numbers are not provided easily up front on purchase for the average person to educate themselves on the meaning so they can compare the values with other gear they own or are shopping for.

As for suggestions on how to better present the information? I don't see how anybody could present it better than you have. I do appreciate when someone like you takes an interest in an area that many do not understand. Keep up the educating posts.

Jaiden .
(jaiden) - F
Sorry, i'm still lost on clo calculations on 09/06/2007 13:20:11 MDT Print View

I'm still really lost here, as none of my calculations ever come out to match yours. I'm sure I'm misunderstanding something. It seems that the more I dig into this, the harder it becomes. I hope you don't take any offense if I've misquoted something.

As I own a Shak, I've tried to duplicate your numbers for that.

Attempt 1)
Per an older post, wool is clo of .08 per oz
.08 clo/oz* 17.5oz *.545 = .763
(.545= 54.5% body coverage in a hoodie, 17.5 being my measured weight on a crappy and probably incorrect scale)
This one is wrong, you already told me not to use this way

Attempt 2)
"If you don't know what the actual clo per inch is, just use the average which is 4 (3.906 to be more exact)."
"The short answer is the Ibex Shak is 390 g/m2 and measured .080 loft"

.080 * 4 *.545 = .174... much lower than the numbers quoted for the shak elsewhere.

Attempt 3)
"Iclu = .43 X (10-2Acov) + (1.4 Hfab x Acov)
Acov is the body area percentage as a whole number and Hfab is the thickness in meters"

Iclu = .43 * (10-2(.545)) + (1.4 (.080*.0.0254) x (.545))
this gives 3.83, and a negative value if I express Acov as a "whole number" (54) instead of a decimal. Both clearly very wrong.

I'm sorry I'm so dense on this matter, but it seems that the information on the subject is scattered in many places and is sometimes contradictory. (I'm not putting this on you, I mean the ISO, EN, etc.)

Perhaps we can add a column to the gear guide for the actual clo of the item? At least a list of common items all in one place would be nice. I think a lot of us have identical or similar gear.

Thanks again for all your efforts in attempting to educate my concrete filled head.

Phil Stetz
(pstetz) - F
Re: Sorry, i'm still lost on clo calculations on 09/06/2007 13:27:04 MDT Print View

I would like to add on to Jaiden's suggestion. Repackaging all the information that is available in this post (and a few related ones) would go a long way in making this topic clearer. I think Richard has done an outstanding job in presenting the information, but I think some of the clarity has been lost due to it being jumbled around in the forum posts. I think this would be an excellent topic for an article.

Edited by pstetz on 09/06/2007 13:28:09 MDT.

Steve .
(pappekak) - F

Locale: Tralfamadore
Re: Re: Sorry, i'm still lost on clo calculations on 09/06/2007 13:36:56 MDT Print View

Would be nice if the clarified version would turn into an article for general consumption.

Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
Re: Re: I don't have a CLO what this means! on 09/06/2007 22:50:39 MDT Print View

It's weird how all of Richard's charts go in strait lines, (meaning they should be easy to understand)???

I wonder how many mets I'm burning while you're trying to figure out your clothing and met rate to see what you need for a certain temperature and then trying to figure out what articles I need to put on when I stop thinking about it, aahh, I'm getting cold.

Jon Rhoderick
(hotrhoddudeguy) - F - M

Locale: New England
Re: Re: Re: I don't have a CLO what this means! on 09/08/2007 16:25:31 MDT Print View

Coming soon

THE COMPLETE IDIOTS GUIDE TO CLO!!!

E J
(mountainwalker) - MLife

Locale: SF Bay Area & New England
1) R1 Hoody versus Powerstretch Hoody 2) Good merino hoody at same weight on 09/09/2007 20:37:23 MDT Print View

I have always thought technical hoodies made very versatile pieces. I use thin merino for base layers (Ibex) but prefer light fleece for my general purpose midlayer for the weight savings (the merino pieces like the Shak tend to be heavier).

1) Does anyone know how the Patagonia R1 Hoody (98% polyester 2% spandex) would compare for warmth with a Powerstretch Hoody, which has nylon mixed in to aid with moisture management and a little wind resistance? I have an old R1 top, not the hoody, and the material is a little denser and heavier than a polartec powerstretch zip top. The material used in my R1 from several years ago is the same mix as the material Patagonia uses in the R1 today. I find that R1 zip top is a little warmer and heavier than my powerstretch zip top, but less wind resistant (though the powerstretch top is not highly wind resistant and I always wear my Patagonia Houdini wind jacket with it in windy conditions.

Note that there are different types and thicknesses of powerstretch with different percentages of polyester and nylon and stretch material. Generally, more polyester is warmer while more nylon moves moisture better and offers more wind resistance.

2) Can anyone recommend a merino hoody that offers the same warmth for weight in the same weight range (around 9-10 ounces) as the Patagonia R1 Hoody?

A good light hoody is an item I'd love to add to my kit.

Thanks for the very informative post.

Christopher Plesko
(Pivvay) - F

Locale: Rocky Mountains
woman's smartwool hoody on 09/09/2007 20:54:42 MDT Print View

The only way you'll find a merino hoody near 9oz is with a woman's smartwool columbine hoody. I've worn my wife's and it's much lighter than my Men's medium Shadow hoody. I like it but it's not quite long enough to be perfect. These may be discontinued like the Shadow too.

E J
(mountainwalker) - MLife

Locale: SF Bay Area & New England
example of Powerstretch Hoody on 09/09/2007 22:00:13 MDT Print View

This is an example of a Powerstretch Hoody of similar weight:

http://www.cloudveil.com/mens/pullovers/run+dont+walk+hoodie--CV06614/

E J
(mountainwalker) - MLife

Locale: SF Bay Area & New England
types of hoodies, merino hoodies on 09/09/2007 22:03:31 MDT Print View

Hi Chris,

How tight is that women's medium? I usually wear a men's Large (42 in chest) - I'm 6ft 185 lbs. Can't imagine squeezing into a top that fits my wife (she's a size 8 and also wears medium tops).

Also, how warm is it compared to the same weight in the R1 material?

Christopher Plesko
(Pivvay) - F

Locale: Rocky Mountains
women's sizing merino on 09/09/2007 22:22:44 MDT Print View

well since I can get into a men's small (5'11" 150-155lbs) the women's medium isn't tight, just not quite as long as I'd like. In your case you'd have to find a women's XL at least and even that might not be big enough.

I can't compare it to an R1 yet, I've got one coming but it's not here yet. I ordered though a local store and they don't have their shipment yet.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: 1) R1 Hoody versus Powerstretch Hoody 2) Good merino hoody at same weight on 09/09/2007 22:52:12 MDT Print View

Mountainwalker - Power Dry comes in three basic weights of light (3.1 oz/yd2), medium (5.1 oz/yd2), and heavy (6.3 oz/yd2). Power Stretch is available in 6.7 oz/yd2, 7.2 oz/yd2, and 7.3 oz/yd2. My Patagonia R1 uses a 6.5 oz /yd2 recycled version of the 6.3 oz/yd2 material and is .869 clo. My Ragged Mountain Power Stretch Hoody uses the 6.7 oz/yd2 and is .953 clo. In other words, my comparable weight Power Stretch is approximately 9.7% warmer than my Power Dry.

My R1 hoody uses 6.5 oz/yd2 Power Dry material. This material has an approximate clo per oz/yd2 of .138 as does the Power Stretch. Merino Wool averages a.084 clo/oz/ yd2. For the same warmth, any Merino wool garment will weigh .138 / .084 = 164% the weight of the R1 Power Dry or Power Stretch Hoodys. The Merino wool hoodys will also take much longer to dry if you get them wet.

Edited by richard295 on 09/10/2007 11:35:59 MDT.

E J
(mountainwalker) - MLife

Locale: SF Bay Area & New England
different types of power stretch blends; R1 or power stretch hoody - which more versatile? on 09/10/2007 10:07:14 MDT Print View

1) To my knowledge, in addition to differences in thickness, there are differences in power stretch composition – does this matter for your considerations?

Power stretch is available in these and I’m sure other general Polartec as well as proprietary blends:
88% Polyester, 12% Spandex – example – Cloudveil power stretch hoody
64% polyester/24% nylon/12% spandex – REI women’s OXT power stretch tights
Fabric49% polyester/38% nylon/13% spandex – REI men’s power stretch tights
(I’m guessing more nylon is used in power stretch pants than in tops for durability)

I find a lot of variability in power stretch garments, which is why I wanted to know better how to compare them. For example, my wife has an REI power stretch hoody we found at a deep REI sale that is very light and well made, but very thin – which means power stretch must be made in a an even lighter formulation than 6.7 oz/yd2. By contrast, I have an old (maybe 8-10 years) Patagonia power stretch jacket which is a monster and indestructible – clearly uses A LOT of nylon and is thicker, more abrasion-resistant and wind-resistant than any other power stretch piece I have ever seen. So much so I don’t use it as a light piece but as an all around beater jacket and it looks good as new. It almost feels like putting on a light version of a neoprene jacket as the surface is so tough.

2) That said, I went back and tried them while clacking at my keyboard and indeed my Cloudveil power stretch zip top is warmer than my Patagonia R1 zip top, matching your general calculations. I’m just trying to find out if the Cloudveil hoody is the same composition.

3) Given the extra warmth offered by power stretch, given a choice, for your most flexible system, would you stick with the R1 Hoody or use a power stretch hoody? Would the extra warmth of the power stretch hoody make it less versatile?

4) My kit - I’ve always refined these basics because they are the most important elements of my kit. My wife and I take them everywhere and in more than a few situations the extra warmth and versatility made all the difference. The balaclava has come in super handy and at 2 oz we always take it. Personally I now use:

Base layer - Ibex light Pacifica l/s zip top (6.5 oz) - except in warmest times where I use lightest Patagonia silk capilene or a short sleeve Ibex zip top, though I find wool a bit too hot for the warmest most humid days)

Midlayer - Cloudveil Power stretch zip top (10 oz) with light Hind power stretch balaclava (2 oz) OR Old special edition thick R2 base later jacket (large weighs in at only 12 oz. with full zip) with the balaclava

Wind layer - Patagonia Houdini (3 oz.)

Insulation layer: Montbell hooded U.L. Thermawrap Parka (about 13 oz. size large) – the WARMEST synthetic garment for the weight I’ve ever owned.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: different types of power stretch blends; R1 or power stretch hoody - which more versatile? on 09/10/2007 11:34:03 MDT Print View

EJ - 1) The Power Stretch composition and thickness both matter for your unique chosen application:

Style: 7416
The smooth, tightly constructed 160 denier Cordura nylon face provides superior abrasion and wind resistance. A semi-velour polyester back provides for good wicking, 3-season warmth, and next to skin comfort. Fabric has wicking/siphoning properties for moving moisture away from the body and a odor reducing treatment to inhibit the growth of odor-causing bacteria. Features four-way Lycra“ stretch for unrestricted movement. Ideal for climbing, mountain biking, and equestrian pursuits, where superior abrasion resistance, maximum freedom of movement, and clean profiles are desired.
7.2 oz/yd2
1.38 clo/oz yd2 (my estimate from averaging other Power Stretch version manikin tests)
Stretch W/H 80/80

Style: 7622
Double faced polyester velour with 4- way Lycra® stretch. The warmest Power Stretch® fabric. Lycra® blends give 4-way stretch for unrestricted movement. Fabric has moisture management properties and an odor reducing treatment for next to skin comfort. Ideal as a heavy, expedition weight underwear or for general cold weather layering.
7.3 oz/yd2
1.34 clo/oz yd2 (manikin test)
Stretch W/H 100/100

Style: 7767
A durable nylon/Lycra® face, with a non-pill, low pile polyester velour back. BiPolar construction allows the placement of different fibers front and back to handle varied conditions. The durable, smooth nylon face resists wind and abrasion, and allows for easy layering. The inner pile (back) has wicking/siphoning properties for quick drying and moving moisture away from the body, along with odor reducing protection from odor-causing bacteria. Lycra® blends give 4-way stretch for unrestricted movement. Ideal for cold weather first layer or next to skin applications such as winter running/cycling,/cross-country skiing tights, and accessories.
6.7 oz/yd2
1.42 clo/oz yd2 (manikin test)
Stretch W/H 60/60

This #7767 material is close to what is used in my Ragged Mountain Hoody. I prefer it because it has the lowest weight and the most warmth for the weight by not dealing with heavy abrasion protection. I use a wind shirt or hard shell to protect it against hard abrasion when required.

2) I own and use a Smartwool Merino hoody, an Ibex Shak Smartwool hoody, a Power Dry Patagonia R1 hoody, and a Power Stretch Ragged Mountain hoody. Reference my 9/5/07 17:15:50 chart post for this response. For backpacking MET levels from about 45F to 0F, I find the R1 Power Dry hoody / windshirt combination provides optimal variable thermal balance with the least amount of weight. This combination also provides the highest safety margin if they get wet and need to be expediently dried by hand wringing. A Power Stretch hoody would provide a comparable comfortable temperature range but in order to not sweat, its comfort range would start at a lower temperature or lower MET level.

Edited by richard295 on 09/10/2007 12:22:48 MDT.

Bill B
(bill123) - MLife
R1 Hoody Temperature Range on 09/10/2007 11:50:16 MDT Print View

Taking into account that each of us has a different temp. range for a given piece of clothing. What's the warmest temp you would use the Patagonia R1 Hoody in (Zipped down, sleeves up)?

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: R1 Hoody Temperature Range on 09/10/2007 12:14:27 MDT Print View

Bill - If you are hiking relatively level ground at a moderate pace, it is comfortable from about 70F Down. If you are backpacking with a 21 - 42 lb pack through mountainous terrain, then is comfortable from about 45F down.

Edited by richard295 on 09/10/2007 12:32:23 MDT.

Bill B
(bill123) - MLife
Re: R1 Hoody Temperature Range on 09/10/2007 12:30:57 MDT Print View

Richard,

Thanks for the reply. Most of my trips are backpacking moderate terrain w/ 20 lbs or less (hopefully much less) in 75 deg down and I suspected that the R1 was pushing it for the upper end of those temps.
Thanks!

E J
(mountainwalker) - MLife

Locale: SF Bay Area & New England
R1 hoody, Cloudveil Hoody and Ragged Mountain Hoody on 09/10/2007 19:41:21 MDT Print View

Richard, how do you think this Cloudveil power stretch hoody below would compare with your Ragged Mountain power stretch hoody and Patagonia R1 hoody for warmth, drying time, wind resistance and range of use (for the last of these I believe you've said the R1 would have the greatest range of use)? I've seen the Ragged Mountain power stretch hoody, it's been used by SF soldiers.

Note that the Cloudveil Run Don't Walk pullover hoody uses material that is 88% Polyester, 12% Spandex, 231 g/m2 and weighs 9 oz. in a size medium.

http://www.cloudveil.com/mens/pullovers/run+dont+walk+hoodie--CV06614/

The Patagonia R1 Hoody is supposed to weigh 309 g (10.9 oz) in a size medium.

How much does your full-zip Ragged Mountain Hoody weigh? I believe my wife's REI power stretch full zip hoody is made of similar power stretch material to your Ragged Mountain hoody (thinner with low abrasion resistance).

I don't think the weight penalty would have been that great to make a full zip for the Patagonia R1 or the Cloudveil. Going with a full zip improves range of use and without hand warming pockets the penalty for extending the zip probably is only 1 to 1.5 ounces. Given that the Patagonia R1 is a climbing piece, I could understand avoiding a zipper near the harness.

I have to replace an older piece I've really worn down and I'm trying to decide between the above options quick, as I managed to snag one of the few remaining R1 hoodies in my size and I'm keeping the tags on for now.

Really appreciate your advice. I'm fanatical about my core pieces, especially now that I've got them dialed in so well.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: R1 hoody, Cloudveil Hoody and Ragged Mountain Hoody on 09/10/2007 20:08:46 MDT Print View

EJ - My guess is that the Cloudveil and Ragged Mountain are approximately equivalent garments. I would have to see a Couldveil to be sure. My only issue with the Ragged Mountain is that they didn't tailer the material from the chin to the neck like they did on the R1. Large air gaps tend to billow out warm air. The Power Stretch garments are a little warmer and fully featured to justify their additional .5 oz. All weights are for my size L garments.

Smartwool - 12.5 oz
R1 - 13 oz
Ragged Mountain (full zip and crotch strap) - 13.5 oz
Ibex Shak - 21 oz

Edited by richard295 on 09/10/2007 20:20:15 MDT.

Richard Nelridge
(naturephoto1) - M

Locale: Eastern Pennsylvania
Patagonia R1 Hoody on 09/10/2007 20:22:27 MDT Print View

Hi Richard,

Unless my scale is off, my digital scale (measures in .2oz or 5g increments) indicated that my large Patagonia R1 Hoody weighs either 12.2 or possibly 12.3 oz. Mine may weigh a little less than yours but within the weight range for this piece of apparel.

Also if you did not pick up on it, Cloudveil indicates their Walk Don't Run Power Stretch Hoody weighs 9 oz in medium. Their weight measurement could be in error however.

Rich

E J
(mountainwalker) - MLife

Locale: SF Bay Area & New England
weights, what you use Ibex Shak and Smartwool for, Supplex pants on 09/10/2007 22:19:14 MDT Print View

Rich, you are probably right about the Cloudveil weight being off. However, I was shocked to learn a few years back that a Cloudveil Large jacket I got on eBay weighed in at almost 2 ounces BELOW the Cloudveil weight for a medium listed on their website.

Richard, what do you use your Ibex Shak Hoody for and what do you use your Smartwool hoody for? My wife and I have Ibex softshell pants (Guidelite - they are so comfortable over such a wide range below 60F that we have them on most of the winter) and base layers, and I'm a big fan of the company, but we stayed away from the Shak because of the heavy weight - we always knew we could have warmer insulation at a little more than half the weight of the Shak.

Also, what type of supplex pants do you use, and are they zipoff?

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: weights, what you use Ibex Shak and Smartwool for, Supplex pants on 09/11/2007 00:23:42 MDT Print View

EJ - I have taken a number of multi-month expeditions. I characterize the clothing I choose for them as expedition wear. Most of my trips are in more benign environments.

After a hearing a few, "... that top really looks nice..." combined with great comfort, both of my Merino wool tops became my non-expedition outdoor favorites. For expeditions, the much more pedestrian looking, but the lighter, more thermally efficient, and quicker drying Power Dry and Power Stretch tops are what I prefer.

Regarding Supplex nylon pants, I make the same two environment distinctions. I use non-zip-off Ex Oficio with integral mesh briefs for non expedition wear because of their good looks and comfort. The non-zip-off Rail Rider X-Treme Adventure Pants are my expedition standard.

Edited by richard295 on 09/11/2007 19:29:52 MDT.

E J
(mountainwalker) - MLife

Locale: SF Bay Area & New England
merino on 09/11/2007 08:07:42 MDT Print View

Richard, thanks for confirming what I always thought. I love the merino wool garments I have, but anything beyond base layer - one very thin l/s (Ibex Pacifica) for most conditions and a thicker one for the coldest weather (Ibex l/s zip about 11 oz, forget what it's called), and merino/cordura softshell pants (Ibex Climawool Guidelite and Backcountry pant) I wound up using casually or selling. And I wind up using the heavier top and heavier merino softshell pant for day trips. Not as thermally efficient for the weight and I find heavier merino takes much longer to dry (thin merino base layers dry as fast as synthetic).

E J
(mountainwalker) - MLife

Locale: SF Bay Area & New England
power stretch and wind pro with Hardface on 09/11/2007 17:01:22 MDT Print View

Richard, I'm curious, have you ever run any tests on Polartec power stretch or wind pro with Harface? These garments tend to be a little more water resistant and a bit more wind resistant than regular power stretch or wind pro and just about as breathable. And a lot more durable (no outside pilling or snagging). Polartech Power Stretch or Polartec Wind Pro with Hardface is a great option when you need more durability or just want a fleece jacket or bottoms to keep from pilling and snagging.

Also have you run any tests on thin Wind Pro?

My Arcteryx Fugitive Hoody, which I picked up in a trade, has a full zip and handwarmer pockets and weighs in at only about 15 ounces - that's not a lot heavier than the Patagonia R1 Hoody, which is heavier than I thought. In fact, if this piece was made without handwarmer pockets, it would probably have come in only an ounce more than the R1 Hoody. I'd describe the material under the Hardface coating as a light wind pro fleece.

E J
(mountainwalker) - MLife

Locale: SF Bay Area & New England
R1 fabric on 09/11/2007 17:10:37 MDT Print View

BTW, I held up the R1 fabric to a light and looked from the inside out and couldn't believe how thin the fabric is in the slots between the grids. Practically see-through. This would have to make it more breathable and more comfortable at higher temps than power stretch.

E J
(mountainwalker) - MLife

Locale: SF Bay Area & New England
R1 Hoody cut is excellent on 09/11/2007 19:02:23 MDT Print View

You were right - the R1 Hoody cut is excellent all over - body, arms, shoulders, neck and head. I hope to compare it with the Cloudveil power stretch hoody soon.

Brett .
(Brett1234) - F

Locale: CA
R1sell again in 2008? on 09/11/2007 20:37:27 MDT Print View

Will Patagonia sell the R1s in 2008 again? They are selling out on the website despite Winter being a few months away. Patagonia has not answered this email question yet; anyone know?

E J
(mountainwalker) - MLife

Locale: SF Bay Area & New England
how to get R1 Hoody now on 09/11/2007 20:45:03 MDT Print View

Hi Brett,

You can still get a few of them through the stores. Call up Patagonia during business hours - ask which stores still have them in stock. I got one out of maybe 10 left in my size nationwide (and best was having a gift card for it). Also, a few online retailers may carry it as well. But the Patagonia stores are your best bet. Don't let Patagonia call their stores for you - get the telephone numbers from them and call them directly.

Best of luck!

Christopher Plesko
(Pivvay) - F

Locale: Rocky Mountains
Re: R1sell again in 2008? on 09/11/2007 20:48:36 MDT Print View

A local mountaineering store claims another shipment is on it's way. I'm on the list for one as soon as they show. Sure I could order one online but I want to try the sizing between a medium and small so I figured I'd support the local store.

Richard Nelridge
(naturephoto1) - M

Locale: Eastern Pennsylvania
Patagonia R1 Hoody on 09/11/2007 21:05:29 MDT Print View

Hi Brett,

REI still lists the Patagonia R1 Hoody as available in Medium. Also, AJs still shows them available in S, M, and L (not familiar with them, but they list the item as available).

Here is the Link:

http://tinyurl.com/yvtvnb

Rich

Don Wilson
(don) - MLife

Locale: Koyukuk River, Alaska
R1 Hoody still in Spring lineup on 09/11/2007 21:05:37 MDT Print View

I believe the R1 hoody is still in the product lineup for 2008. I love it too. Versatile, warm, excellent cut. I'll be taking mine on the BPL Wilderness Trekking course next month.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: power stretch and wind pro with Hardface on 09/11/2007 21:49:57 MDT Print View

EJ - The most common Power Stretch hard-face option is #7767 (60% polyester, 30% nylon, and 10% Lycra) versus the most common soft-face option # 7622 (94% Polyester & 6% Lycra). I only use the soft-face version for the following reasons:

1. The soft-face stretch is 100% width and 100% length versus only 60% width and 60% length for the hard-face.
2. The soft-face clo is .975 versus .953 for the hard face.
3. The soft-face air permeability is better (210) versus the hard-face (163).
4. I already carry a windshirt and it addresses the abrasion resistance and wind blocking requirements when needed.

I have tested the #7774 Wind Block version but not the Wind Pro. I only use my Wind Block for around-the-city wear. The clo is great at 1.275 but it is very heavy at 9.9 oz per yd. In addition the integral wind proof membrane is redundant with the function of my windshirt.

Edited by richard295 on 09/11/2007 21:51:42 MDT.

E J
(mountainwalker) - MLife

Locale: SF Bay Area & New England
Hardface, not nylon power stretch; Polartec Wind Pro on 09/11/2007 22:15:52 MDT Print View

By Hardface, I'm not referring to a power stretch mix with nylon on the outside, but to a new material from Polartec which puts a light coating (urethane?) on the outside of the power stretch or wind pro fleece.
http://www.polartec.com/contentmgr/showdetails.php/id/843

How does Polartec Wind Pro rate in your measurements versus Power Stretch and Power Dry? Light Wind Pro garments can work very well over a fairly wide range.

I stay away from any type of wind blocking fleece for active use. Just too hot and not breathable enough. Around town, yes. But even around town I find them hot. Plus I always carry a highly breathable wind shell (Houdini) or in winter, an excellent light Patagonia hooded softshell jacket. I currently use the Arcteryx Wind Pro with Hardface hoody for around town and travel, for which it's well suited. The Hardface garments seem to give up a little loft/warmth for the Hardface coating.

I know you carry a wind shell as well, but I personally prefer the power stretch blend that includes nylon near the surface (though again this is not called Hardface, which is another Polartec product). The surface nylon not only makes the garment more durable, but it adds a little wind resistance, which means it can be used longer before having to throw on a wind shell. I run and x-country ski in this type of power stretch top and bottom in winter. Only when it is very windy and very cold I throw on my wind shell or light softshell and a more wind blocking tight. I find the stretch in this type of power stretch more than sufficient for active sports. If you are only giving up .022 clo, that's not a bad trade off for more wind resistance and wider use range.

I find my Houdini excellent overall, but I don't think it would stand up to a lot of abrasion and I try to be careful with it. My light winter softshell is much more durable.

Brett .
(Brett1234) - F

Locale: CA
R1, just couldn't justify it yet on 09/12/2007 00:09:50 MDT Print View

EJ, Chris, Richard; thanks for the leads. The total cost of about $149 from REI is just too much considering I have many fleece jackets already. I had it in my cart but chickened out. I'll consider it again in the Fall. I do have a shadow hoodie on order which might suffice.
Interestingly, I noticed REI now has their own "REI Hoodie" in polyester fleece, but the hood looks saggy, like gang-wear, not like the technical balaclava syle hood on the R1.

E J
(mountainwalker) - MLife

Locale: SF Bay Area & New England
right there with you Brett on 09/12/2007 07:06:56 MDT Print View

Hi Brett,

I'm right there with you. I wouldn't have picked mine up if:

a) I wasn't selling a regular zip top R1 from a few years back I haven't used much and a few other items now. Surprisingly used Patagonia items hold their value ridiculously well, even taking on a vintage value. I have bought used Patagonia items on eBay that I have sold for the same price or more a year or more later.

b) I didn't already have a gift certificate from a return from last year.

I keep a list, and any new piece of gear, I always have to justify the use AND sell the item it replaces before I can let myself make the purchase. I also have been fortunate to be able to barter with some smaller gear shops.

The most impressive thing about the R1 Hoody is the fit. Wearing the hoody around town will make you look like a Special Forces sperm right out of Woody Allen's Everything You Always Wanted to Know About Sex But Were Afraid to Ask; but it is a very comfortable and thermally efficient design.

E J
(mountainwalker) - MLife

Locale: SF Bay Area & New England
shadow hoody? on 09/12/2007 07:08:47 MDT Print View

What is the Shadow Hoody? What is it made of and who makes it?

Jaiden .
(jaiden) - F
Re: shadow hoody? on 09/12/2007 07:50:24 MDT Print View

Smartwool, Merino.

E J
(mountainwalker) - MLife

Locale: SF Bay Area & New England
where to find Shadow Hoody on 09/12/2007 08:45:24 MDT Print View

Brett, Jaiden,
Ah, yes. I thought they stopped making the Shadow Hoody. I was looking for it a while back but it was out of production, and it doesn't show on their website. Where can you get it now? And is it unisex, or is there also a women's version?

Eric Noble
(ericnoble) - MLife

Locale: Colorado Rockies
Re: shadow hoody? on 09/12/2007 09:08:05 MDT Print View

Smartwool Shadow Hoody is made of merino wool. Check out the reader reviews, including mine.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: where to find Shadow Hoody on 09/12/2007 09:27:11 MDT Print View

The last time I checked, 8/27/07, you could still have a Smartwool dealer order the now discontinued male version Smartwool hoody from the US Smartwool wholesale warehouse. The only color combination in the warehouse is Driftwood / Brick (very nice looking IMO). The following is the contact I used and had delivery within one week of my phone order.

BAP!
Chris Daniels
PO Box 772133
735 Oak St.
Steamboat Springs, Co 80487
970-879-7507
Chrisd@wearbap.com

Edited by richard295 on 09/12/2007 09:42:25 MDT.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: R1, just couldn't justify it yet on 09/12/2007 09:38:42 MDT Print View

Brett - For the widest backpacking thermal comfort regulation, in cool to cold weather, a form fitting hoody base layer and windshirt is optimal. For a fleece based option, only a Power Dry or Power Stretch hoody works well for this application.

E J
(mountainwalker) - MLife

Locale: SF Bay Area & New England
thanks, Smartwool Shadow on 09/12/2007 10:27:15 MDT Print View

Thanks Richard
How does the Smartwool Shadow compare with a power dry or power stretch option with a balaclava hood? I remember it was supposed to be light, maybe 9-12 ounces.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: thanks, Smartwool Shadow on 09/12/2007 11:09:17 MDT Print View

EJ - My size L is ~ 12.5 ounces and is very good looking. One the other hand, the hood and chin area are poorly cut and baggy for my XL sized head. It is about .045" loft versus .080" for the Power Dry R1 but only ~.5 oz lighter.

Roger B
(rogerb) - MLife

Locale: Here and there
Re: Re: R1, just couldn't justify it yet on 09/12/2007 11:12:01 MDT Print View

Richard a slightly different question does the windshirt also require a hood for optimal performance?

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Re: Re: R1, just couldn't justify it yet on 09/12/2007 11:32:35 MDT Print View

Roger - Yes. All of your skin, except for your head and neck have blood vessels that constrict when you are cold and dilate when you are warm to regulate your body temperature. In order to not vary the blood supply to your brain, the head and neck blood vessels always stay the same size.

When you are backpacking, you will need to frequently adjust your thermal insulation up or down to stay in thermal balance. This occurs as you change your MET level, the terrain changes, or the effective environmental temperature changes. A zippered and hooded base layer / windshirt combination best allows quick broad spectrum thermal neutrality. Of course if the quick part is not a requirement, more conventional clothing like gloves, balaclavas and hats can be used in place of hooded base layers and windshirts. These separate options normally have less thermo neutral granularity, weigh more, and take more time to remove from or put back in your pack.

Edited by richard295 on 09/12/2007 12:56:45 MDT.

Roger B
(rogerb) - MLife

Locale: Here and there
Hoody and windshirt on 09/12/2007 12:19:53 MDT Print View

Thanks Richard

I am one of those who has a smartwool hoody and a windshirt with a hood so I should take a closer look at my gear as I may not need to pack the balaclava or the possum fur hat under certain conditions.

I appreciate your work it is very comprehensive as well as informative, hopefully BPL will get you to write an article on MET, clo and SUL backpacking in the near future.

E J
(mountainwalker) - MLife

Locale: SF Bay Area & New England
Smartwool Hoody really a base layer replacement; Balaclava on 09/12/2007 13:16:26 MDT Print View

Richard, thanks again for the weight on the Smartwool Hoody. Given the lower warmth for the weight, it seems more like a replacement for a light to mid-layer long sleeve base layer, not a midlayer replacement.

Roger, I never leave my 2 oz. Hind Balaclava behind - it's made some miserable days very comfortable. It's amazing how much heat you lose through your head. This Balaclava is very thin power stretch and rolls or folds down very small.

Roger B
(rogerb) - MLife

Locale: Here and there
Re: Smartwool Hoody really a base layer replacement; Balaclava on 09/12/2007 13:24:38 MDT Print View

I would never leave my possum fur hat behind, but I may consider changing my smart wool hoody for a power stretch one.

Christopher Plesko
(Pivvay) - F

Locale: Rocky Mountains
Re: Re: Smartwool Hoody really a base layer replacement; Balaclava on 09/12/2007 15:25:30 MDT Print View

I've got the men's and women's smartwool hoodies. The women's is a better base layer if you can find one that fits you. That being said I wear my Shadow all the time on day trips but it wouldn't make the "expedition cut." That's why I've got an R1 on order. Got to see if it's better. Tight fitting hoods are a must to leave behind the balaclava.

Hooded base layer, hooded windshirt or rain jacket and hooded parka are my core upper body clothing items. I rarely bring more than that.

E J
(mountainwalker) - MLife

Locale: SF Bay Area & New England
Info from Cloudveil on their power stretch hoody on 09/12/2007 18:08:39 MDT Print View

OK, got the info on the Cloudveil Run Don't Walk power stretch hoody from Matt at Cloudveil. Seems like it's very close to the R1 except for the hood, which is not a snug fitting balaclava. Also looks like the Cloudveil body is not as long as the R1. The R1 Hoody offers better face coverage (chin, sides of cheeks and forehead). I'd guess the Cloudveil is a little more wind resistant than the Patagonia R1.

"I have most of the info you were looking for I hope this helps out.

1. The RDW hoodie has a low profile hood that should fit somewhat snug but it does not have a super technical fit.

2. Short of physically weighing a large hoodie, there is no information available. My best guess would be around 11-12oz.

3. The weight in oz/yrd2 is 6.8

4. We have a full selection of RDW gear at our Flagship store here in Jackson (307) 739-3930

Some of our dealers have not received the gear yet so it is best to call a few places in your area by going through the dealer locator on our website.

The specs of the RDW PowerStretch are:

88% poly 12% spandex

Surface is: Face – Smooth Jersey, back – Velour

MVTR (Moisture Vapor Transmission Rate) test: ASTM E96 = 596 g/m2/24hours

Shrinkage result after three times wash and dry at 120º F is 2% length and 4% width.

Hope this helps, thanks for supporting Cloudveil

Cheers,

Matt"

Bill B
(bill123) - MLife
Anyone need an R1 in small? on 09/12/2007 18:31:56 MDT Print View

I'm about to return 2 R1's, size small to Patagonia. They didn't fit. They still have the tags. Given the scarcity of R1's, I thought I'd offer them here before returning them. Retail price ($130)+ shipping. Paypal only. If there in no interest by Fri. I'll just return them.

Christopher Plesko
(Pivvay) - F

Locale: Rocky Mountains
Re: Anyone need an R1 in small? on 09/12/2007 22:40:32 MDT Print View

What size are you? I've been debating between a small and a medium.

E J
(mountainwalker) - MLife

Locale: SF Bay Area & New England
Vapour-Rise and DriClime warmth on 09/13/2007 13:45:06 MDT Print View

Hi Richard,

How do Rab Vapour-Rise garments and Marmot DriClime fair in your calculations? I've always thought the Rab Vapour-Rise jacket would be handy for cold winter use, but it must be less versatile by nature because the wind layer is part of the garment. How does it compare with other materials for warmth? The closest I've ever owned was a Marmot DriClime windshirt (which was a little lighter than the jacket below and which I got rid of once I got a separate wind shell).

http://www.rab.uk.com/products_vr_vrjacket.html

http://marmot.com/catalog/fall_2007/10/15/26/node/716

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Vapour-Rise and DriClime warmth on 09/13/2007 19:26:50 MDT Print View

EJ - I have a DriClime that I use for spring skiing. Warmth wise it is equivalent to a light windshirt with a Polartec 100 under it for insulation. As you pointed out, the main issue for backpacking is the lack of granularity. Secondarily, the nylon windbreaker is constructed using very durable but heavy large denier nylon.

E J
(mountainwalker) - MLife

Locale: SF Bay Area & New England
Rab Vapour-Rise on 09/13/2007 19:42:41 MDT Print View

Do you know if the Rab Vapour-Rise is much different than the DriClime? It's clearly heavier than the DriClime jacket, but the Driclime doesn't come with a hood. I've read very good things about it for winter use in this forum.

In Winter I typically replace my wind shell with a Patagonia Ready Mix softshell, which is light, incredibly breathable, durable and water- and wind-resistant.

Edited by mountainwalker on 09/13/2007 19:45:43 MDT.

Joshua Mitchell
(jdmitch) - F

Locale: Kansas
Re: shadow hoody? on 09/14/2007 08:37:21 MDT Print View

Mostly Merino hoody that Smartwool used to make... it's been discontinued for a while.

I got a 2007 Icebreaker Nomad (390gm/m2 Merino) at a steep discount. It seems rather nice, close fitting hood, thumb loops... but I can't say I would have purchased it if it had been full price.

Mark Verber
(verber) - MLife

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Rab Vapour-Rise on 09/14/2007 14:13:39 MDT Print View

Both the DriClime and the Vapour are really great for high energy activities in cool to cold weather conditions. Both are approx a 100wt fleece + windshirt in terms of warmth.

DriClime Advatages: The DriClime is a bit lighter than the Vapour Jacket even if you factor in the weight of the hood. The DriClime dries more quickly when it gets soaked, and the bipolar wicking makes it feel dry on the inside more quickly that the Rab in my experience.

Rab Vapour Advatages: Has a wire stiffened hood which is very nice. Sleeves are extra wide which makes it easy to push up over my elbows extending it's thermal comfort range. I find the Vapour to be more breathable than the DriClime... and also more water resistant. I find that the Vapour is a bit warmer than the DriClime.

More at Mark's thought on "softshells"

E J
(mountainwalker) - MLife

Locale: SF Bay Area & New England
thanks, Rab Vapour-Rise usage; where to get on 09/14/2007 14:21:38 MDT Print View

Thanks Mark, that was very helpful (and I've learned a lot from your excellent website). Can you share a little more specifics about activity level and temperature range in which you use the Rab Vapour-Rise, and how it functions under or over other garments? Also, have you tried the pants?

In addition, where did you get your jacket? Rab isn't widely available in the U.S.

E J
(mountainwalker) - MLife

Locale: SF Bay Area & New England
Rab Vapour-Rise sizing on 09/14/2007 14:26:54 MDT Print View

Also Mark, how's the sizing? You wrote on your site that the Rab Vapour Rise Trail Jacket "runs narrow." I'm 6 ft tall, 185 lbs, slim fit build with a 42 in. chest and typically wear a men's size Large jacket. Would I need to size up?

Mark Verber
(verber) - MLife

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: thanks, Rab Vapour-Rise usage; where to get on 09/14/2007 15:42:09 MDT Print View

*Temp Range*

As I have said earlier in this thread... different people need different levels of insulation. I find the warmth of the Vapour Rising to be approx the same as a good 100wt fleece and a unlined wind shirt.

I have been good down to around 25F snowshoeing wearing fleece hat, softshell gloves, a short sleeve tech-tee (or featherweight long sleeve shirt), and Schoeller Dryskin pants. I have been OK, but on the cool side when engaging in snow play or down hill skiing when the temp was around 30F.

I will be a bit warm but ok to around 50F wearing it unzipped, arms pushed up, with a tech-tee and nylon hiking pants. Modest walking speed on level ground it's ok to around 60F for me.

*Over/Under*

Works fine with a belay jacket over it. Typically don't put things under it. I have periodically warm my thermawrap vest under it which worked ok.

*Pants*

No experience. My legs typically don't need a lot of protection.

*Sizing*

You are approx my size and build. I would suggest L would work. I have an XL and it is a bit too big for my taste.

*Where Buy*

I ordered it from the UK. I think I got it was from a Jackson Sports' clearance sale a couple of years ago.

Tony Vails
(pro_out) - F
houdini on 09/16/2007 15:12:38 MDT Print View

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=220149255161&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=012

Miguel Marcos
(miguelmarcos) - F

Locale: Middle Iberia
Re: R1sell again in 2008? on 09/17/2007 04:34:24 MDT Print View

The R1 Hoody is listed on the Patagonia websites (US and Europe). The design is changed, the zipper is not offset, and the fabric is recycled. Is it as good as the old one? I never had the old one myself so time will tell.

BTW, I had to do a search for Hoody on the European site, couldn't find it browsing.

Bill B
(bill123) - MLife
Re: R1sell again in 2008? on 09/17/2007 06:27:47 MDT Print View

Zipper is offset in new model. See Patagonia site/details page.

I called Patagonia. They said that if their page says "out of stock", then they are not sure if it will be introduced again.

Has anyone found their new R1 to be itchy? It took about 6 washings for this to go away.

Miguel Marcos
(miguelmarcos) - F

Locale: Middle Iberia
Offset? on 09/18/2007 03:38:59 MDT Print View

I haven't gotten mine yet, I ordered it yesterday. The description does say it's offset but the photo shows nothing of the sort. Oh, well.
http://www.patagonia.com/web/eu/search/esearch.jsp?OPTION=ESEARCH&N=0&Ntt=hoody&search.x=0&search.y=0

Miguel Marcos
(miguelmarcos) - F

Locale: Middle Iberia
That offset... on 09/24/2007 01:01:27 MDT Print View

I got mine on Friday. It is offset, from the neck up. Hood has great head coverage. Can't wait to try it out when temps go down, curious to find out what the temp and wind limits are for this thing. The fit is slim but it leaves room for a base layer under if desired. I love Patagonia.

Dave .
(Ramapo) - F - M
I found a batch of R1 Hoodies! on 09/26/2007 13:01:27 MDT Print View

Hey there, any of you good folks still looking for an R1 Hoody?

My local gear shop just got a bunch in. I bought one over my lunch break today because of all the praise it had been getting here. (Yes, the zipper is still offset.)

If any of you are having trouble finding one, just let me know and I can pick one up and mail it to you. They're $117, but I get a 10% discount.

You guys were right: it's a pretty sweet piece of gear!

Dave

Christopher Plesko
(Pivvay) - F

Locale: Rocky Mountains
r1 hoodies on 09/26/2007 13:15:49 MDT Print View

my local mtneering store has one on small and medium on hold in my size. I'm going in tomorrow night to try them on. I think a lot of stores just got their shipments in.

Christopher Plesko
(Pivvay) - F

Locale: Rocky Mountains
Re: r1 hoodies on 09/27/2007 21:43:51 MDT Print View

Picked one up tonight. Men's small fit better the medium but it was close. 10.41oz/295g.

Very nice piece. Should be wearing it starting tomorrow night for a hike of Culebra on Saturday. My wife is jealous of the ninja look.

E J
(mountainwalker) - MLife

Locale: SF Bay Area & New England
R1 pants on 10/01/2007 12:33:46 MDT Print View

Anyone ever use the R1 pants? What's their comfort range?

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
My favorite layers on 10/01/2007 18:00:32 MDT Print View

Base: Patagonia Capilene or GoLite C-Thru (silkweight, tops and bottoms)
Intermediate: Mountain Hardwear Power Stretch long sleeve zip tee
Insulation: Patagonia Micro Puff vest, Burton Heaters pullover, lightweight polyester fill in general (I want a BMW Cocoon someday)
Button down shirt: Ex Officio Airstrip Lite, Columbia Silver Ridge long sleeve
Windshirt: Montane Lite-Speed, Marmot Ion
Wind pants: Hind Microlite
Pants: REI Sahara zip-offs, Ex Officio Amphipants, discontinued REI heavy-ish nylon pants, Mountain Hardwear Pack Pants.
Shorts: Gramicci Quick Dry, Ex Officio, REI Sahara
Rain: Marmot Precip, SMD Gatewood Cape
Socks: Patagonia Capilene, Wigwam Merino wool, various Coolmax
Gloves: Mountain Hardwear Tempest, Pearl Izumi bicycle gloves, Petzl Cordex Light Belay (leather and synthetic hybrid)
Hats: Tilley T4, Outdoor Research Peruvian Windstopper, Sugoi fleece beanie, Outdoor Research Sun Runner, Orvis wide-brimmed nylon sun hat

Other favorites: Marmot Driclime Windshirt, generic Polarfleece 200 pullover/sweater, Columbia Falmouth shelled fleece.

Currently evaluating: REI One softshell

Edited by dwambaugh on 10/01/2007 20:51:29 MDT.

Adrian B
(adrianb) - MLife

Locale: Auckland, New Zealand
Re: The best clothing combinations for backpacking or hiking? on 04/19/2009 18:13:57 MDT Print View

Ok, digging up this old but still fundamental post for a minor quibble.

On paper the chart suggests a hooded windshirt and a hoody is an ideal combo, because you can adjust both hood + sleeves.

In practice, I can only just push up the sleeves of the two windshirts (Montbell UL unhooded windshirt and Patagonia Houdini July 2007) I own with nothing underneath. It's not fantastically comfortable, and I don't think I've got unusually thick arms. Add even a thin long sleeved baselayer to the mix, and getting both up isn't really doable, let alone thicker sleeves like on the R1 which are extra long and almost too thick to get up even when worn alone. Plus then you've got several times the insulation sitting over your upper arms anyway, which I'm not sure is accounted for.

Partly for this reason I tend to settle on the R2 Vest under my windshirt, it's full front zip gives it good venting relative to it's area. But perhaps there are windshirts that are easier to push up the sleeves on that the two I mentioned?

Eric Blumensaadt
(Danepacker) - MLife

Locale: Mojave Desert
Great chart but... on 04/19/2009 22:14:36 MDT Print View

...(there's always a but on this forum)

But I'd say the ever-present windshirt may be needed when there's no wind but a lot of radiation. After seeing two friends die agonizing deaths from melanoma it's long-sleeved shirts, side brimmed hats and SPF 50+ sunscreen for me.

However a windshirt may be way too hot so a light shirt like an REI Sahara or Mojave or Cabela's Guidewear fishing shirt should be in the hot weather/ high altitude clothing list.

Eric

Kevin Kingma
(MrKingma) - F
clo/oz. on 05/20/2009 17:10:10 MDT Print View

First, a thank you for the work and critical thinking that is in this and similar BPL discussions. My one thought is about clo/oz. values. Down and synthetic lofting insulators have significantly higher clo/oz. than polartec, capilene or wool fabric insulators. But, a jacket or shirt can be made out polartec, capilene or wool fabric alone; down and polarguard require a nylon outer and inner layer of material to keep them in place. Do the clo/oz. values of down and other lofting insulators take into account the weight of the necessary 1.4 oz ripstop polyester layers (two -- inner and outer)? This seems to me to be the only way to accurately compare clo/oz. values in the real world.

M L
(herzzreh)
sorry... on 06/01/2011 14:48:54 MDT Print View

Sorry for bringing the old thread to life but I can't do PMs.

Richard, is it possible to get a hi-res version of the chart you posted on page 2?

Julien Gaullier
(Ommadawn) - F
R1 alternative? on 12/03/2011 07:52:58 MST Print View

Hello!

I found this great thread thanks to this blog post http://jolly-green-giant.blogspot.com/2011/11/big-boy-replacement-for-r1-hoody.html and found it very interesting!

The Patagonia R1 is a bit expensive so I'm searching for alternatives, do you think that the new Rab Baseline Hoodie (http://rab.uk.com/products/new-this-season/new-baselayer/baseline-hoodie.html) would make a good alternative and give good results with a windshirt?

Thanks

Edited by Ommadawn on 12/03/2011 08:00:55 MST.

Diplomatic Mike
(MikefaeDundee)

Locale: Under a bush in Scotland
Rab Baseline on 12/03/2011 08:05:23 MST Print View

Some info on the Rab Baseline Hoody here.

Julien Gaullier
(Ommadawn) - F
Great on 12/03/2011 08:21:16 MST Print View

Thank you very much, I missed this article. It looks interesting (and cheaper)!

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
cabela on 12/03/2011 09:11:31 MST Print View

julien ...

look for a deep zipper which the cabela (in the article u posted) one unfortunately does not have

the deep zipper allows you to vent on the move ... and put it on/off without taking off yr helmet, glasses, etc ...

the MEC one has this ... so does the EB FA and others that are cheaper than the R1

the rab one looks like it has it

Edited by bearbreeder on 12/03/2011 09:12:51 MST.