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Lightening up: dooReplace Windshirt (Houdini) and Rain Gear?
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Christoph Blank
(chbla) - F

Locale: Austria
Lightening up: Replace Windshirt (Houdini) and Rain Gear? on 07/22/2014 13:31:12 MDT Print View

Hi there,

I want to continuously improve my gear and since I didn't bother about my gear list too much lately, I thought I might have a look again.
My main activities are: Hiking, Trail Running, Trekking, Mountain Biking and I am obviously focusing on lightweight stuff (and breathable, in the case below).

I saw that there are new things coming up, and thought about replacing my windshirt and rain shells, which are:

Patagonia Houdini (2010 version) 113g
I am not sure if there are better wind shirts out there for my purpose, reading through the long thread from Richard Nisley it seems as if this is still the "best" windshirt available. I of course do not want to blindly sacrifice superior function for a little weight). If I understand right, for trail running/running I might be better suited with a higher CFM value than 35.. have to try that.

Rab Off Limits Pants 198g
I'm pretty sure there is something better (more lightweight while still suitable for my purpose) out there by now

Rab Demand Pull On 280g
while the event is of course very breathable, I thought there might be something lighter by now.. there are almost too much rain jackets that came up within the last years for me to get a clear overview...

For the rain gear I thought maybe the Marmot Essence Jacket and Pants might be good, but I couldn't find a lot about the material:
Montane Minimus also looks interesting, even lighter

What do you think? I would really appreciate some insights/opinions

Thanks a lot,

Edited by chbla on 07/22/2014 16:04:32 MDT.

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Ghost Whisperer on 07/23/2014 07:32:26 MDT Print View

I can tell you your 2010 Houdini is still about the best you can do. There's lighter, but the function on the pre-2014 Houdini jackets is hard to beat.

Mountain Hardwear's Ghost Whisperer windshirt comes in lighter at like 2-3oz.

Christoph Blank
(chbla) - F

Locale: Austria
houdini on 07/24/2014 12:52:40 MDT Print View

Thanks! I decided to keep the houdini for this reason.

However, I guess I can at least lighten up my rain gear

Rick M
(rmjapan) - F

Locale: London, UK
Re: houdini NOT! on 07/24/2014 15:02:03 MDT Print View


Edited by rmjapan on 06/22/2015 01:45:11 MDT.

Christoph Blank
(chbla) - F

Locale: Austria
both on 07/24/2014 15:58:27 MDT Print View

I don't want to leave the Houdini at home :) I basically want both, a good windshirt, and good rain gear.

Usually for multi day hikes, I don't take the windshirt. But if I know the weather before, I can take it and leave the rain gear at home for example.

Christoph Blank
(chbla) - F

Locale: Austria
choices on 07/31/2014 10:02:35 MDT Print View

I initially wanted a rain jacket that I can also use for trail running (in addition to backpacking) but I think the better choice is to get something like a neoshell for this purpose since they are a lot more breathable (but I'm not sure if it makes a huge difference). For backpacking they seem quite heavy.
Another option would be to have a lightweight one with vents, but it seems that there are not really a lot of options.

Currently I'm considering:

Montane Minimus Smock 146g
PERTEX® Shield +

Marmot Essence Jacket 164.4g
NanoPro™ MemBrain®


- Does anyone know how NanoPro Membrain compares to Pertex Shield+?
- Are there any lightweight ones that can be vented?
- Which are the lightest NeoShell and Event jackets and is the breathability noticeable with activities like trail running?

David Chenault
(DaveC) - BPL Staff - F

Locale: Crown of the Continent
Re: Lightening up: Replace Windshirt (Houdini) and Rain Gear? on 07/31/2014 10:06:46 MDT Print View

Christoph, you could get marginal improvements in your current setup, but that's it. The '10 Houdini is still one of the best compromises between durability, weight, breathability, and weather protection. The various PU laminates (e.g. the Montbell and Montane stuff cited) will be lighter, but won't work nearly as well when its actually raining hard.

I'd keep what you have.

Christoph Blank
(chbla) - F

Locale: Austria
thanks on 07/31/2014 10:09:47 MDT Print View

Thanks for your opinion David!
I already decided to keep the houdini - like many here I don't mind the additional weight for the better breathability.. so right now only the rain gear is left :)

How do you mean the Montane/Marmot fabrics don't work as well in heavy rain.. because of the Event?

Christoph Blank
(chbla) - F

Locale: Austria
comparing data on 07/31/2014 10:58:29 MDT Print View

It's interesting that many outdoor brands now list values for the fabrics used.
Comparing them:

Marmot Essence, NanoPro Membrain
Waterproofness: 10,000 mm minimum JIS-L 1092
Breathability: 20,000 to 47,000 gm / 24h JIGS-1099 B1
11,700 to 12,500 gm / 24h JIGS-1099 A1
CFM: 0.14 to 0.20 CFM Air Permeability
Hohenstein RET: 2.9 to 4.0
Technology: 2.5 Microporous lamination with Dry Touch finish

Montane Minimus Shmock PERTEX® Shield +
53g/m² 2.5 layer 15 denier with a 40 denier rip-stop 100% nylon with microporous coating and internal 'mesh' print
Waterproof to a minimum of 20,000 hydrostatic head and with a minimum MVTR of 25,000g/m²/25hrs (JIS L 1099 B-1)

It seems that (if I interpret this right) the Essence is slightly more breathable.
Is this difference even noticeable? Is membrain "better" than pertex shield+ for sports?

Ben Crocker
(alexdrewreed) - M

Locale: Kentucky
Lightening up: dooReplace Windshirt (Houdini) and Rain Gear? on 07/31/2014 11:12:49 MDT Print View

I think you have great wind and rain gear and would not change a bit.

The Rab Demand is not that heavy and will breathe quite a bit better than either of those PU laminates from Marmot and Montane. But even the Demand with eVent won't be great for high exertion. I have the Demand pull over too and like it better than anything else I have used. It's at least a reasonable weight for its good performance. The PU coated fabric of the Marmot and Montane will not breathe as well.

Yeah, keep the Houdini.

David Chenault
(DaveC) - BPL Staff - F

Locale: Crown of the Continent
Re: thanks on 07/31/2014 12:16:33 MDT Print View

The breathability of eVent is obviously a very nice thing to have. Rab has also proven to have a very good DWR (something Montbell, for instance, comes up short on), and an excellent hood (miles better than Marmot, for example). I also think stiffer fabrics (which tend to be a bit heavier, but not always) are superior for sustained rain, in that they keep the jacket off you a little bit which in turn keeps you warmer.

In summary, I think the above features are at least as relevant as the laminate used. There are probably some options available which might help you shave a bit of weight (Haglofs Gram Comp), but if your Rab is going strong I don't think the $/performance ratio makes much sense.

Christoph Blank
(chbla) - F

Locale: Austria
well on 08/11/2014 01:27:27 MDT Print View

I've decided to keep the gear and maybe replace it next year :)