three days, two nights w/ a 24 liter pack?
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Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
three days, two nights w/ a 24 liter pack? on 07/04/2014 20:19:19 MDT Print View

Osprey has a new series of running packs, the Rev series (I currently own and love their small 1.5 liter Rev)- they make one in 24 liters http://www.ospreypacks.com/en/product/endurance__trail_fitness/rev_24 which I think might (think and might be the key words!) be possible to accommodate a 3 day, two night run outing.

Gear would include: shelter/sleeping- 40 degree down quilt, short Neoair, event bivy; clothing-light down jacket, rain jacket, windshirt, windpants, beanie, gloves; cooking/food-esbit ti stove, 600 ti cup, ti spork, fuel, lighter, 2 boil in a bag suppers, granola w/ dried fruit, coffee and numerous and asst. bars, blocks, gels, etc; misc: sunscreen, camera, first aid kit, TP, headlamp, compass, map, Micropur tabs

the rain jacket, windshirt and pants would fit on the front w/ the bungee setup (my small Rev I carry my rain jacket and windshirt like that); it comes w/ a 2.5 liter bladder- I'd replace that w/ the 1.5 liter one that comes w/ the 1.5 Rev as my couple of planned runs would be where water is pretty plentiful

much of the food (bars/blocks/gels) and some of the other misc items would be carried in the various stretch pockets on the harness and the small hipbelt has a couple of pockets as well

I've considered going no cook, but after 30-ish miles I'm thinking a warm meal might be just what the doctor ordered :)

It's pushing things a bit, but your thoughts if it seems plausible

Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
Re: three days, two nights w/ a 24 liter pack? on 07/04/2014 22:58:25 MDT Print View

I've done 5 days in a 20 liter pack.

1
fg
That was without cooking but the rest was pretty much the same.

So what will your pack end up weighing with everything loaded?

I say pretty much because you mention a shelter.
Shelters take up much more room than a tarp.
Same with a bivy. Seems to be two items you could par way down or even go without.
Plus you didn't mention which shelter, or down jacket you're bringing.
If they are both bulky, then you may have a problem.

The only thing about the above pack was that it felt like a brick on my back.
Even at 15 1/2 pounds, it needed to be on my hips for me to move efficiently.
I ended up going with the SMD Flight 40 for this reason (and love it).
It's the only pack I'll use once the weight gets over 12 pounds.
Then again, I made a pack for 2-3 day trips that will be about 10 pounds.

Not sure how much less space 2 days food would take up?
When you subtract that and add the 4 liter difference in pack space, do you have room for a shelter, bivy, and pad?
I think you'll be fine, just because of the 2 days less food.
That and you do have some storage space on the outer pockets with the pack.
My wife bought the new 12 liter size Osprey and returned it.
It just didn't work for running as she is too small. I loved it, but would want the 24 like you for the same 2-3 day trips.

Edited by awsorensen on 07/04/2014 23:12:25 MDT.

Justin Baker
(justin_baker)

Locale: Santa Rosa, CA
Re: Re: three days, two nights w/ a 24 liter pack? on 07/04/2014 23:14:32 MDT Print View

He said shelter/sleeping and listed some gear, I think he means the event bivy is his only shelter.

I've done low elevation warm weather trips with a 20ish liter pack (I was actually using an old jansport school backpack because my ohm was too big). I had my summerlite, cut down z-lite folded inside the pack, polycro ground sheet, windshirt, some msc. items, and food/water but with room to spare. (not shelter at all) So less stuff than you have.
I could have fit 3 days of food in there easily.
I just picked up a patagonia ascensionist 25 liter pack for some trips this summer.

The real thing that will push up your weight and bulk and make such a small pack not work is active clothing like a fleece midlayer or the need for rain/wind pants, but that's more of a shoulder season thing. Not a big increase in weight to add some down to your bag and push it below 40, just the stuff you may need during the day.

It's hard to tell, but I think you might be pushing it for 3 days. Could be wrong though... easy way to tell would be to take a large pack and fill it up. If it's a 40 liter pack and it fills half, then you know you have 20 liters worth of stuff.

I would ditch the down jacket and gloves and accept that you will need to crawl into your quilt early. If you need the down jacket to keep warm enough while sleeping, then maybe a 30 degree quilt would make sense. You did say it's a running trip so warming up in the mornings shouldn't be too hard, but I'm not a runner myself.

Edited by justin_baker on 07/04/2014 23:18:11 MDT.

Justin Baker
(justin_baker)

Locale: Santa Rosa, CA
Re: three days, two nights w/ a 24 liter pack? on 07/04/2014 23:24:58 MDT Print View

Tomorrow I'll load up my patagonia 25 liter with a light 3 season kit and see how much food i can fit in there. I'll post some pics.

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: three days, two nights w/ a 24 liter pack? on 07/04/2014 23:41:57 MDT Print View

I've been through this game in various scenarios and as much as I like the *idea* of getting my kit into as small a package as possible, I have to sit down and ask myself why. Smaller is better and usually lighter, but if it's a fight to make it work, I think it's time to look for something big enough to do the job. It can come down to just a few liters, but there's no magic: either you go without, or you add some pack volume.

I like Osprey packs myself. The Rev 24 looks trim and smooth, but it was primarily designed as a hydration pack and lacks those niceties that makes a camping backpack a gear hauler and trail office with easy access to your stuff along the way and enough room to fit your gear list. I hate getting up in the morning and trying to get everything back in the pack-- it's always easier at home!

An REI Stoke 29 is a good example of the next step up in size at 29-31 liters depending on size, HALF the price of the Osprey and just 4 ounces more. The extra pockets are a deal clincher for me.

http://www.rei.com/product/848005/rei-stoke-29-pack-2013-special-buy

The Gossamer Gear Kumo and Murmur packs are another pair to consider, slightly higher in cost and lighter yet.

Mitchell Ebbott
(mebbott) - F - M

Locale: SoCal
Re: three days, two nights w/ a 24 liter pack? on 07/04/2014 23:56:05 MDT Print View

I can fit an overnight's worth of gear and food in my 25 liter pack, and I could probably squeeze another day's worth of food in. The problem you run into, though, is accessibility. Everything has to be packed so efficiently, it takes significantly more time just to get a rain jacket or lunch out of the bag and get everything stuffed back in properly. An extra liter or five would make everything much simpler.

Edited by mebbott on 07/04/2014 23:59:02 MDT.

Owen McMurrey
(OwenM) - F - M

Locale: SE US
Re: three days, two nights w/ a 24 liter pack? on 07/05/2014 02:36:16 MDT Print View

Given the almost identical dimensions compared to the Manta 25, I think it will be close.

If you post the packed sizes, I can simulate it for you.

You might remember commenting on a pic with my old gear in response to a review saying they could only fit a jacket and pair of gloves in the Manta. You have more items, but my stuff was bulkier(ID Unishelter, Big Agnes Air Core, summer bag, Marmot Precip, etc.).

David Drake
(DavidDrake) - F - M

Locale: North Idaho
Re: three days, two nights w/ a 24 liter pack? on 07/05/2014 10:26:07 MDT Print View

I'm not a runner, but certainly seems plausible. I've managed 4 days with a 25L pack:

RC25MtRainier

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
3 day/2 night run on 07/05/2014 18:33:18 MDT Print View

Thanks gents for all the feedback! A couple of things, first the pack- the Rev is a dedicated running pack- it goes on more like a vest than a pack, uses a lot of stretch materials, doubles up on the sternum strap, etc- this greatly reduces bounce, swinging etc- the vest style also gives you some more options on keeping things up front and handy w/o having to stop. I've run in more traditional packs and they simply don't work too well for running.

Also the "shelter" will be the event bivy by it's lonesome, not overly cozy, but should keep the elements out

Going back to the pack, it looks a little squat- dimensions show 19x11x9", not sure how that compares to other smaller packs, but I think my old Ion was taller???? The dimensions do look close to the Manta however, so that might be a good comparo.

The quilt packs up pretty small- 5x9" roughly, the jacket is MH Ghost- probably would use it to pack into nooks and crannies that are available, the pad packs pretty small as well- roughly 3x9"

weight, I'm guessing gear/clothing 6-7-ish, food 3-4-ish, water 3-ish- the weight shouldn't be much of a problem w/ this style pack, it's the lack of volume that I think will be tough

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: 3 day/2 night run on 07/05/2014 20:43:21 MDT Print View

Yep, it's all about the volume: Newtonian physics still apply :) As you have found, 24 liters is about the bleeding edge for adventure racing packs and it that is about as minimalist trail sport as you can find. IIRC, many races have a lot of rules on minimal equipment coverage to keep the participants from running naked with a water bottle in their hand :) I'll bet 24 liters is about the limit for getting something that is close enough to your body to minimize swaying and bouncing.

I wold look at the Talon 33 and consider adding another sternum strap. I made this composite photo, dangerously NOT to scale. They don't look too different, other than the height of the Talon.

Osprey Rev 24 vs Talon 33

Of course if the pack gets larger, there will be more sway, but you can jam your stuff in there. If not, buy the 24 liter, pare it down to the minimum and pack it tight. All you can do is try.

When I think about running, I lie down until the feeling goes away :)

Ito Jakuchu
(jakuchu) - MLife

Locale: Japan
reply on 07/06/2014 06:32:18 MDT Print View

Dale
Apart from volume running packs also have more chest straps, that are elastic. This so you can strap them tighter, but it moves more with your breathing. The bounce is definitely less.

Mike M -
I don't know your running pack but often their hip belts come to your waist. If volume of your pack were not enough, I would think about adding a separate hip belt. You know those that you normally use without a pack, to store gels and two (or four) bottles. That can free up some space in your main pack for items you don't need access to as much during the day anyway, and leave your immediate water and gels at your immediate disposal.

I would personally also definitely consider going no cook. You can still soak hearty meals at the end of the day and eat savoury.

Have fun!

Edited by jakuchu on 07/06/2014 06:34:20 MDT.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
3 day/2 night on 07/06/2014 16:19:16 MDT Print View

Dale- I used a Talon 22 on my R2R2R, it was OK, but these running packs just suck up next to your body as Ito describes-clearly the 33 would have plenty of volume, but not the snug fit I want

Ito- I have such a belt from UD, has several smaller pouches on it, might work below the Osprey belt????
I'd much prefer "yes" cook :) It would be just the volume of the 650 mug, as everything else fits inside it

Mike

Edited by mtwarden on 07/06/2014 16:25:22 MDT.

Marko Botsaris
(millonas) - F - MLife

Locale: Santa Cruz Mountains, CA
Re: 3 day/2 night on 07/06/2014 17:40:25 MDT Print View

The relatively new Patagonia Ascensionist climbing pack, 25L version, ~ 12 oz ($99) can even fit a small bear can, I was amused to note (or think of it as a 3 days of food place holder), so that would be about right for about 3 days if your other stuff fits. It is pretty snug - more or less its style.

a1

a2

This one really has a ton of attachment points as well so you could add some quick access storage. In addition to the two lines of them that you can see in the pics, there are two more lines of them around the other side (closer you the wearer's back) and on the shoulder straps. This one is pretty minimalist and svelt, without any extra features. Very minimal hip belt, for example. And up a little higher. Might be an OK pack for running as I suppose some of the requirements are very similar to climbing, especially freedom of movement and minimal swaying. But I don't do the former so not qualified to say.

But as you can see from the pics, it all fits.

Edited by millonas on 07/06/2014 18:08:29 MDT.

Ito Jakuchu
(jakuchu) - MLife

Locale: Japan
Re: 3 day/2 night on 07/06/2014 18:44:41 MDT Print View

"Dale- I used a Talon 22 on my R2R2R, it was OK, but these running packs just suck up next to your body as Ito describes-clearly the 33 would have plenty of volume, but not the snug fit I want

Ito- I have such a belt from UD, has several smaller pouches on it, might work below the Osprey belt????
I'd much prefer "yes" cook :) It would be just the volume of the 650 mug, as everything else fits inside it
Mike"

Mike, I would definitely try the UD belt you already have. I have yet to see a racing pack or vest that comes down to your hips so I think it would work really well.

I think you're right about the yes cook. When I wrote about the no-cook I started thinking afterwards that if you carry a pot anyway, you'll probably not use up a lot of space with a minimal alky or esbit kit.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Re: 3 day/2 night on 07/06/2014 19:05:03 MDT Print View

Marko- that's a very nice looking pack, reminiscent of the Ion w/ a few bells and whistles :) not sure how it would do for running????

Ito-yup, little tri wing esbit stove- a warm meal in the evening and maybe even a warm breakfast (say oatmeal) along w/ a mandatory intake of caffeine!, would definitely make things a wee bit better :)

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: 3 day/2 night Talon 33 on 07/06/2014 19:25:22 MDT Print View

The Talon 33 example was more a handy choice rather than an optimal one. I was curious about market offerings and did some Googling, but I really didn't find anything past 24 liters and I have to admit that is probably the practical limit for running with a pack--- unless someone is shooting at you :) There have been many SUL kits that have been squeezed into small packs, but you have to accept the compromises.

I've never liked small packs that bounce around on your back. Climbers like them for peak bagging with essentials and they want the thing away from their arms when climbing. Runners don't want a lot of arm hamper either, but I think you can build packs that are longer, wider and less deep so they are close to your back and a better center of gravity. A flattish cuben tube with a roll top and a really basic belt could pull it off--- a design that would suck down to your back. I think Dave Chinault had a post or article showing how to shape the pack with the side panel design. I would want a good array of compression straps. It *would* be sweaty hot I think.

I got a small ProLite pad to help with the volume issues. That and a Gatewood Cape, a bivy, and a small Therm-a-Rest Tech blanket make for my light and compact core kit, but I'm looking at a 30 liter pack (Stoke 29) and not for running. My inspiration was to get it all stashed on a bike for a bike & hike journey. This is "height of summer" stuff too, not 3 season. A 32f or so bag kinda hoses the whole concept.

Cooking doesn't need much more than a 450ml mug with a tin foil lid and windscreen, an Esbit wing stove and a folding spoon. A mug filled with other stuff is basically invisible volume-wise.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
custom on 07/06/2014 20:00:41 MDT Print View

Dale- You are correct-there isn't a lot out there for larger running packs. I've seriously thought about going custom (Zimmer), but frankly I'm afraid of a costly one off creation not working :(

Mike

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: custom on 07/06/2014 21:55:36 MDT Print View

I hear that!

That Rev 24 does lean out there a bit, to the point where it reminds me of book pack ergonomics.

Something with sides that run right down the back edges of your rib cage so you get the full width for volume, just clearing you swinging elbows. That helps keep the pack shallower and the weight close to your body. Compression straps would keep it all stable and suck up the slack as you eat your way through the load.

The payback is the heat. With more back area covered it has to be hotter. Nice for winter maybe.

Like all things, there's no free lunch :)

Marko Botsaris
(millonas) - F - MLife

Locale: Santa Cruz Mountains, CA
Re: Re: custom on 07/06/2014 22:07:35 MDT Print View

"Something with sides that run right down the back edges of your rib cage so you get the full width for volume, just clearing you swinging elbows."

I have an old Golite pack I haven't used in a while that is shaped like a "eight" or one of those Homeric age Greek shields - fat on top and bottom and narrow in the middle. It was supposed to be an adventure racing pack primarily but you arms were supposed to be able to swing in the narrow spots when running while the volume was increased where it widened out. Maybe something like that but very narrow front to back - if you are going to get one custom, that is.

Edited by millonas on 07/06/2014 22:10:55 MDT.

Justin Baker
(justin_baker)

Locale: Santa Rosa, CA
Re: Re: 3 day/2 night on 07/07/2014 00:44:16 MDT Print View

Mark, today I used black dye on my ascensionist 25liter and it came out a nice dark brown.

Just fyi if you don't like the blaze orange.

Edited by justin_baker on 07/07/2014 00:45:19 MDT.