Forum Index » Chaff » She throws like a girl!


Display Avatars Sort By:
Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: Re: hmm on 06/30/2014 15:38:20 MDT Print View

I was a smarty pants in grade school and in high school. When I was very young I remember pretending to not know things because MY FRIENDS would make fun of me for being a "smarty pants" and a "know-it-all." I remember clearly my mom telling me that no matter what my friends said, and no matter what the boys said, I was never to "let" the man win, and I was never, ever to play dumb for a guy.

I never dated in high school.

I seriously dated one guy in college...and I played dumb so he would like me. Because I was told many, many times by my guy friends that I was "intimidating."

Heck, just a few years ago I had a guy - who I really liked and hoped for something long-term from that relationship - this guy said I didn't "need" him, that I would resent "settling" for him because I was smarter than he was and I made more money than he did.

Right now, in my university where I teach, I am consistently put second to a new guy who has fewer credentials than I do and less experience. And this is done by the FEMALE head of the department and the FEMALE head of the orthopedic section. It gets VERY tiring to fight this day after day.


So you guys are living in some serious land of denial if you think that girls don't have cultural pressure to NOT be smart and to avoid VERY the male-dominated fields of math and science.

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
well on 06/30/2014 16:41:30 MDT Print View

If it makes you feel better, I had a prof that discriminated against the guys in the class.

Ian Destroyer of Forums
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: hmm on 06/30/2014 17:03:41 MDT Print View

Thanks Doug. This is a wonderful video.

I guess I’m fortunate that the women in my life have all broken through the glass ceiling and I’m proud of their accomplishments. I can see how it’s not an even playing field for them but I’m glad that my daughter has my wife, mother, and sister (three separate people (figured a couple of you wiseacres would turn that into a redneck joke(I can tease rednecks as I have hillbilly tendencies(no seriously… that’s a rule. You can make fun of your own kind and it’s still PC (yes I get paid by the parenthetical statement))))) as role models of what she can accomplish with hard work and determination.

I just don’t understand why so many women try to subvert the success and ambitions of other women. My maternal grandmother flew fighter planes inside the U.S. (for logistical reasons (shoot here I go again)) during WWII and later went on to become a vice principle at a high school yet she tried to convince my sister to become a house wife instead of pursuing a career in business. Fortunately my sister ignored her and is now a VP at a local hospital (yes I like to brag about her (ok I really need to know when to say when(I mean c'mon, this really wouldn't be acceptable under any writing style))).

Edited by IDBLOOM on 06/30/2014 17:13:06 MDT.

Donna C
(leadfoot) - M

Locale: Middle Virginia
Re: Re: Re: hmm on 06/30/2014 17:42:58 MDT Print View

I was dating a guy and one afternoon he dropped by my place while I was busy changing the spark plugs in my car. He took one look at what I was doing and left. I never heard or saw from him again. HIs loss.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Re: hmm on 06/30/2014 18:29:55 MDT Print View

"Heck, just a few years ago I had a guy - who I really liked and hoped for something long-term from that relationship - this guy said I didn't "need" him, that I would resent "settling" for him because I was smarter than he was and I made more money than he did."

This is a really interesting comment. For those of you without any experience with Match.com (lucky bastards), one column in a person's profile lists their 'stats,' which include height, body type, religion, ethnicity, job, education and salary, among others, and in the column beside it the values to those categories that he/she wants the person they're looking for to possess. I've found that generally (meaning this is a generic statement for all you anal types), the more educated a woman is, and the more money she makes (when they list their salary, many people do not), the more they want the guy they're looking for to be in one category higher. So if they have a bachelor's degree, they want their mate to have a graduate degree. If they make $75,000-$100,000, they want their mate to make $100,000-$150,000.

As far as the guy you reference above, while I've never had those feelings once in a relationship (the two longest term relationships I've had were with women who had graduate degrees, while I have no degree), I have at times not pursued a relationship because I felt something along the same lines. And since the vast majority of women are smarter than me, that makes it tough sometimes!

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Re: Re: hmm on 06/30/2014 20:22:16 MDT Print View

Interesting, somewhat related (in a broad kinda way) article: http://www.salon.com/2014/06/30/in_praise_of_the_beta_male/

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
since this is chaff... on 07/01/2014 06:20:51 MDT Print View

Michael,

You and I disagree on most everything when it comes to chaff, and you have very clearly pointed out why. If it didn't exactly happen to you or to someone you know personally, then it must not be true or that big of a deal. Heck, since YOU'VE never been a victim of female sexism and cultural pressures on women, then by all means it must not exist!!!!




Interestingly, I find this a pervasive attitude from most folks on the far right when it comes to most issues: since I can afford contraception, then everyone can! Since I never had an issue getting a "real" job, then those who can't must be lazy! Since I've never needed food stamps, then those who do must be freeloaders! I also think this is one of the hallmarks signs of sociopathy: inability to empathize with the experiences of others.

Ian Destroyer of Forums
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: since this is chaff... on 07/01/2014 07:14:20 MDT Print View

Jennifer & Michael,

OK I guess there's only one way to solve this personality conflict between you two... the Thunderdome.

Ken Miller
(Powderpiggy) - F

Locale: Colorado
Bad Advice on 07/01/2014 08:35:46 MDT Print View

@Jennifer

Too bad your mother gave you such bad advice. We all have to compromise in order to fit in. Granted we also need to stand up for ourselves, but taking such a narrow view on our interactions isn't productive.

After a long career of working with highly educated people, both male and female, I have found that often their egos are much larger than their brains.

Your generalizations and stereotyping of conservatives is humorous or mostly hypocritical. I have found that many women who consider themselves feminist are really just very liberal women. Their ideology trumps their feminist beliefs when in conflict, think about the Left's attacks on Sarah Palin and her children and the lack of response from the feminist organizations.

Liberals have a tendency to categorize people into sub groups based on gender, race or sexual orientation. I remember watching a CNN reporter interviewing a gay male who was a Log Cabin Republican trying to convince him that since he was gay he could only be a democrat, too funny.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Bad Advice on 07/01/2014 08:55:22 MDT Print View

"Too bad your mother gave you such bad advice."

Yes Jen, too bad your mother brought you up to believe in yourself and advised you to always be yourself, instead of pretending to be someone else to stroke the egos of others. Shame on her.

Ian Destroyer of Forums
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Bad Advice on 07/01/2014 09:03:52 MDT Print View

"I remember clearly my mom telling me that no matter what my friends said, and no matter what the boys said, I was never to "let" the man win, and I was never, ever to play dumb for a guy."

How is this bad advice?

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
Re: since this is chaff... on 07/01/2014 12:13:28 MDT Print View

Jen,

I'm hardly far right. Only by the skewed overwhelming population of far left wingers on here do I look "far" anything. I already said that I hadn't experienced it and I guess I'm lucky. You probably ignored that in your rush to rant.

Are my positive experiences any less valid because they offer a contradictory viewpoint? You and some of your compatriots on here love to shout down those that don't agree and sensationalize anything you feel is wrong.

Some people love to play the victim. Others work hard to overcome difficulties. You can decide which you want to be. I prefer to work hard and be rewarded for my efforts. Sometimes it isn't sexism. Sometimes it is because attitude and competence.

The last woman I knew that screamed discrimination was just flat out incompetent. She was convinced that it wasn't her fault and she was treated unfairly. In reality it was because she was a sub par employee and didn't work hard. She thought she was entitled to everything.

Is there sexism? Yes. Is their racism? Yes. But these go both ways. It is unfortunate that some girls feel the need to "play dumb". I am glad I haven't seen it personally. I do question how wide spread an issue it is.

Edited by mpl_35 on 07/01/2014 12:57:48 MDT.

Daryl Daryl
(lyrad1) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest, USA, Earth
Deleted on 07/01/2014 12:31:35 MDT Print View

Never mind. Can't get link to work.

Edited by lyrad1 on 07/02/2014 08:06:11 MDT.

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Oh I'm no victim... on 07/01/2014 13:43:41 MDT Print View

"I already said that I hadn't experienced it and I guess I'm lucky. You probably ignored that in your rush to rant."

-- Er, you then didn't read MY post - I said because you hadn't experienced it, you dismiss that it is an issue for others (see last sentence of YOUR post).

"Are my positive experiences any less valid because they offer a contradictory viewpoint? You and some of your compatriots on here love to shout down those that don't agree and sensationalize anything you feel is wrong."

-- Nope, your positive experiences are not less valid on an individual basis - but no, they are NOT valid in terms of a larger sample size. My entire post was that just because your n=1 demonstrates no cultural bias towards women expected to be weaker/less smart/less powerful does not mean the entire population has the same experience.

Just look at how the US treats Hillary, or Nancy Pelosi, or any powerful woman for that matter. These women are called "bitches," they are reviled for being ugly, manly, wearing pant suits, dowdy, a lesbian, etc.

"Some people love to play the victim. Others work hard to overcome difficulties. You can decide which you want to be. I prefer to work hard and be rewarded for my efforts. Sometimes it isn't sexism. Sometimes it is because attitude and competence. "

-- Oh I'm no victim. I make a lot of money, I'm smart, I'm powerful, and I have overcome more than you know to get where I am. And it's none of your business what that's been - but the fact is I've fought for everything I've got. And I'm proud of it. And honestly, I've worked with a lot of people - men and women - who have issues with attitude and competence.


"Is there sexism? Yes. Is their racism? Yes. But these go both ways. It is unfortunate that some girls feel the need to "play dumb". I am glad I haven't seen it personally. I do question how wide spread an issue it is."

-- and this is my point. Just because YOU don't realize you see it (I think you just aren't aware enough to see it) doesn't mean it's not widespread. It happens every single day, all the time, to nearly every woman in the country. Women who choose to stay home to raise children? Vilified by "working" moms for returning to the past. Women who are strong and run companies and try to raise kids? Vilified for not being able to adequately take care of her kids.

Edited by Jenmitol on 07/01/2014 13:47:34 MDT.

Ian Destroyer of Forums
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Thunderdome on 07/01/2014 13:47:40 MDT Print View

Two enter. One leaves.

Seriously don't know if I should place my bets on Tina or Master/Blaster.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Oh I'm no victim... on 07/01/2014 13:57:48 MDT Print View

"Is there sexism? Yes. Is their racism? Yes. But these go both ways."

But before I feel sorry for a white man, on a total population level, for being discriminated against, the average salary for a white man would have to be less than non-whites or women.

Although I think it would be better to make up for past discriminbation, based on economic condition. There are also white men that are in a poor economic situation because their partents were also. Like maybe in Appalachia. Or really all over the country and world for that matter. If your income is less than the poverty level then you would get free health care. and get free education if you're willing to put in the work and keep up your grades.


"It is unfortunate that some girls feel the need to "play dumb". I am glad I haven't seen it personally."

Sometimes it's subtle. Maybe you don't see it because you're not looking for it. Maybe you just feel good when those women you've known have manipulated you and haven't questioned it (making a little humor here, just kidding).

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Thunderdome on 07/01/2014 13:59:26 MDT Print View

Ian and I will stand by and watch, popcorn in hand...

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
Re: Oh I'm no victim... on 07/01/2014 14:07:44 MDT Print View

Jen,

For the last time, I didn't dismiss the concerns. I said that I was fortunate not to experience it or see it and that I was "lucky". Questioning how serious sexism still is, is perfectly fine. The data shows that the lingering vestiges of discrimination have been eroding over the years.

My n=1 is just as valid as your n=1. What you ignore is that I have friends and peers as well. I have not found ANY of them tell me they have been discriminated against. But that isn't an n=1 so you will ignore it. Maybe you should go ask your boss why you are being put second.

I can't believe you are going to trot out two of the most powerful women in the county and hold them up for how they are treated? Get out of here. I didn't hear you screaming sexism when Bush was mocked for big ears and being dumb. I think your hypersensitive. Yes, Pelosi looks like she had bad plastic surgery. Big deal. That isn't sexism for crying out loud.

I love it. You won't to rail against criticism for working moms and for stay at home moms. Nice. Enjoy having it both ways.

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
Re: Re: Oh I'm no victim... on 07/01/2014 14:12:21 MDT Print View

Jerry,

Handouts shouldn't always be your answer to everything. We are running a deficit and you want to give healthcare and education to more people?

"Ian and I will stand by and watch, popcorn in hand..."

You are just mad I'm not arguing with you.

edited for spelling

Edited by mpl_35 on 07/01/2014 17:08:56 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Oh I'm no victim... on 07/01/2014 14:55:58 MDT Print View

"Handouts shouldn't always be your answer to everything. We are running a deficit and you won't to give healthcare and education to more people?"

We shouldn't raise taxes except for removing loopholes that went to just a few people. Any programs have to be paid for.

Obamacare fixed a lot of the healthcare problems. Probably minor tweaks are in order. (like that will happen with the Republicans only willing to vote to repeal it).

Helping people get an education is an investment, not a handout. The economy will be much better in the future way more than any costs. This is what happened after WWII. Us baby boomers profitted off this, but now we are greedily not willing to extend this to the current generation. We should be ashamed of ourselves.

I like Elizabeth Warren's plan of eliminating some tax loopholes to pay to reduce interest rates for college loans. Currently, the government makes large profits off these programs. We're effectively taxing people that have got college loans. That program should be break-even for the government - interest rates lowered to just exactly pay for all the expenses. Several percent lower than current. "Only" 58 senators were willing to vote for it. A couple Republicans.

We should do better than that for current students. Would pay off in the future. We are just short term stupid.