Forum Index » General Lightweight Backpacking Discussion » Question: Your Energy Lifestyle and Backpacking


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Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear1) - F

Locale: BPL purgatory
Re: Re: Re: Nothing on 06/28/2014 14:02:13 MDT Print View

I agree Mark, as an individual in our individual efforts, there is not much direct effect or change we can make in overall pollution etc

However, as an individual part of a large and growing group of individuals who do care and who are making changes, we can eventually make more significant differences.

I would rather place the emphasis on the latter, rather than the former. Personally speaking, i know there is a lot more that i could do as an individual, but i have my weaknesses like all or most humans plus the inevitable compromises. To some extent, i'm a hypocrite, but i do try.

Part of the issue in America, is the pathological emphasis/focus we have developed and given to the "individual". Obviously some of that is important and necessary, but surely we could use some more focus on the collective and the larger whole, no? Balance is always nice, extremes usually not so helpful.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: my little contribution on 06/28/2014 14:19:48 MDT Print View

"Plus, you don't want to call U238 waste. The so-called depleted uranium is used as a high-mass projectile for some gun systems."

Yeah, wouldn't want the stuff to go to waste when it could be salting the earth in places like Serbia or Iraq, now would we? Sad, Bob, sad.

Peter S
(prse) - MLife

Locale: Denmark
Wow... on 06/28/2014 14:36:29 MDT Print View

If everybody thinks that they personally don't have an influence, then, of course nothing is going to change... I have absolutely no respect for that kind of mentality. That's kids logic. Grow up.

Peter S
(prse) - MLife

Locale: Denmark
Furthermore on 06/28/2014 14:43:53 MDT Print View

We have absolutely nothing to lose if we act as the climate scientists tells us to, and it should be that they are wrong.

IF it should be that they are right, and we have done nothing to prevent it, then we are screwed.

Why would anyone want to gamble? The only explanation would be good old egocentric behaviour. Me me me, want, want want, now, now, now.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Nothing on 06/28/2014 14:44:43 MDT Print View

"I agree it's going up, but i don't agree that's it's main cause it burning of fossil fuels."

It's pretty easy to estimate the amount of fossil fuels burned, and the volume of air in the atmosphere.

Only problem is the CO2 has gone up half as much as this simple calculation

But that's explained by the fact that the ocean has absorbed half of it

Where else would the CO2 have come from and where did all the CO2 go that we put into the atmosphere?


"I also don't agree it's all bad that it's rising either"

I think a lot of climate scientists are making a lot of well intentioned predictions, like if the CO2 goes above 390 PPM it will be a tipping point and things will get much worse. But things are so complicated there's a lot of uncertainty.

Maybe the effect of added CO2 will be minimal. Maybe things will be much worse than predicted. Who knows, maybe we'll stave off an ice age that would have occurred otherwise.

Better to minimize added CO2 until we know better. At least do the easy things like improving efficiency, switching to natural gas, more wind mills,...

Peter S
(prse) - MLife

Locale: Denmark
People on 06/28/2014 14:49:03 MDT Print View

And I agree, we as a world should stop our growth as a species.

One thing would be to abandon all religions, and make abortion and birth control totally acceptable.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Question: Your Energy Lifestyle and Backpacking on 06/28/2014 14:50:42 MDT Print View

I had no idea that this was a general lightweight backpacking discussion!

--B.G.--

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: People on 06/28/2014 15:01:55 MDT Print View

"One thing would be to abandon all religions, and make abortion and birth control totally acceptable"

Now you've done it, good one

Maybe have more guns so people will shoot each other and reduce population?

Peter S
(prse) - MLife

Locale: Denmark
Re: Re: People on 06/28/2014 15:18:15 MDT Print View

Jerry, that comparison doesn't make any sense.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: People on 06/28/2014 15:23:53 MDT Print View

Religion, birth control, and abortion are controversial topics. Just mentioning them may stir up a huge argument.

Gun control thrown in because it's also controversial.

Peter S
(prse) - MLife

Locale: Denmark
Re: Re: Re: Re: People on 06/28/2014 15:41:05 MDT Print View

Ah, got it Jerry :-)

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: People on 06/28/2014 15:46:45 MDT Print View

Maybe a less subtle way of saying it is "great! Bringing up religion, abortion, and birth control, this is going to turn into a huge argument, only thing worse would be to bring up gun control"

Except I'm just trying to make stupid joke, not being critical of your comment or anything.

Peter S
(prse) - MLife

Locale: Denmark
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: People on 06/28/2014 16:12:13 MDT Print View

Funny, in Denmark there's absolutely nothing controversial about saying no to religious beliefs, and nothing controversial about birth control and abortion.

Nothing should be protected in the discussion about the survival of mother earth and human existence.

I'm ready to discuss if anybody disagree with my beliefs ;-)

Mark S
(gixer) - F
Easy to judge on 06/28/2014 16:38:19 MDT Print View

"However, as an individual part of a large and growing group of individuals who do care and who are making changes, we can eventually make more significant differences."

Justin,

We have never met and i think this is the first time we have talked on the forum, please don't take this the wrong way as we all have different life experiences and different personalities, but in my opinion that's an extremely naive way of thinking.

Some people do truly care and some of those have the courage of their convictions.

Mostly though people care up until it encroaches on their lifestyle.
How many people really NEED a 2000kg car with 300 ft/lb of torque?
How many people NEED to take their car down to the nearest store rather than walking.
People complain about animals being mistreated yet still chose the cheapest pieces of meat.

As i say i personally do not believe we are having the effect on the environment we are being lead to believe, i am also sure that it's not all doom and gloom if it does occur.

I do know my fellow humans will complain and be outraged up until the point where they have to nip to the local burger joint in their car.

"If everybody thinks that they personally don't have an influence, then, of course nothing is going to change... I have absolutely no respect for that kind of mentality. That's kids logic. Grow up."

Hi Peter,

Problem is though you don't know me, you don't know how our lives compare or as the greenies put it how our carbon footprints compare.
So how can you judge me?

I could well be making a smaller carbon footprint than you just by trying to save money.
Insulation for the house, walking, cycling or taking public transport, strong dislike for flying, solar water heater, solar panels etc
ALL things i do in my life to save money and life a easier life, just because i don't buy into this "end of days" stuff doesn't mean i'm not "grown up"

Even if i bought into it, please tell me what could i do tomorrow to make a noticeable difference?
Please note i said noticeable as a measurement, lets take the CO2 output from underground fires many of which have been burning for thousands of years, certainly long before we relied on fossil fuel.
It's said that these fires many started naturally make up around 1% of the worlds carbon dioxide emissions.
So what i do as a person that could have a noticeable impact even on that 1% during my entire lifetime?

"We have absolutely nothing to lose if we act as the climate scientists tells us to, and it should be that they are wrong.

IF it should be that they are right, and we have done nothing to prevent it, then we are screwed.

Why would anyone want to gamble? The only explanation would be good old egocentric behaviour. Me me me, want, want want, now, now, now."

Actually we have a LOT to lose.
First off we have other natural resources that are being plundered in the name of "saving the planet" countries thrown into wars because bluechip companies want to make more money for their share holders.

Have a look at how many materials are mined from many African countries that go into say a Prius.
Coltan, tin, tantalum, tungsten and gold all mined with absolutely zero consideration for the environment.
Vast scars made in the land by workers that are or are bordering slave labour, all the time lining the pockets of dictators and the large companies supplying them to Toyota, Nissan etc for their batteries and electronics.
Or how about China raping Tibet of it's Lithium to put in said cars batteries.
What about the factories CO2 outputs that make all the components in said "green" cars.

And this is just cars as an example, it's the same for solar panels, the bits that go into wind turbines etc etc etc.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
Problem is folks get on their high horse and judge others yet really don't see the whole picture.
The keyboard/touchscreen we're typing on, the cables that power the internet, the harddiscs that store the server data, they've all been ripping out of the earth in some way of form, then had thousands of kilowatts of power thrown at them throughout the production process.
It's then boxed with packaging that would have come from trees being cut down at some time in the recycling process, all manor of bleaches then added.
Then they're loaded up on a fossil fuel powered truck, driven to a airport that uses thousands of watts of coal powered electricity to sort it and ship it on a plane that burns gallons and gallons of fossil fuel to ship it to other countries.

You see what i mean, it's easy to judge until you start to look at the life of things we use daily and the impact it makes on the enviroment

Peter S
(prse) - MLife

Locale: Denmark
Re: Easy to judge on 06/28/2014 17:01:42 MDT Print View

Mark, just because some green technologies aren't that green after all, doesn't change one bit about the fact that we should try to be more responsible as a species.

Getting people to care and raising awareness is the first to do.

I'm only attacking your attitude, I have no idea who you are.

Mark S
(gixer) - F
Re: Re: Easy to judge on 06/28/2014 17:23:25 MDT Print View

"Mark, just because some green technologies aren't that green after all, doesn't change one bit about the fact that we should try to be more responsible as a species.

Getting people to care and raising awareness is the first to do.

I'm only attacking your attitude, I have no idea who you are."

But we are NOT responsible as a species.
Look at the amount of war, ethnic cleansing, corruption, greed and hate in the world as an example.

Rain forests being cut down so a farmer can grow enough crop to feed his family.
People on low income struggling to make ends meet that still continue to have kids.

We KNOW that heroin is bad for us, yet folks still take it.
We KNOW that excessive alcohol consumption will severely affect our morals, risk assessment yet millions still get drunk on a Friday night.
We KNOW speeding in certain areas at certain times of the day is dangerous yet millions do it daily.
Cigarettes - lung cancer, fast food - obesity, no exercise - heart disease, the list of examples goes on and on and on.

People are not responsible in general and they won't be for the foreseeable future.

People talk a good talk and there are some that walk the walk and have the courage enough to live by their convictions, but that in my experience is extremely rare these days.

I understand my opinion can seem a little strong, as the media has bombarded people with guilt and the "can do" attitude about how we are destroying the planet, it's been on everything from children shows and books through to Hollywood blockbusters, we've had it rammed down our throats for years, but what has come of it?
Governments continue to enforce various "environmental" taxes and have done for years, yet do absolutely nothing with it.

So even IF i buy into all this "save the world" stuff what can I do tomorrow that will any difference that i don't do already simply as what i see as good financial housekeeping?

Peter S
(prse) - MLife

Locale: Denmark
Re: Re: Re: Easy to judge on 06/28/2014 17:34:00 MDT Print View

This is definitely going around in circles.

Let's all just give up...

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Easy to judge on 06/28/2014 17:38:05 MDT Print View

"Governments continue to enforce various "environmental" taxes and have done for years, yet do absolutely nothing with it."

Cars keep getting better mileage, a lot because of the federal CAFE standards

Lots of wind mills wouldn't have been built without government encouragement

Houses and buildings and appliances are getting more efficient a lot because of government policies

I live in Los Angeles in 1970s. Air pollution was much worse than today, because of government intervention.

Government has successfully done some things. Should do more in the future.

Sarah Kirkconnell
(sarbar) - F

Locale: In the shadow of Mt. Rainier
Re: Easy to judge on 06/28/2014 18:53:34 MDT Print View

Peter, before anyone brings in population control, well, maybe we should look to just how "perfectly" China handles it. They have too many boys born, who will never marry, never have a child nor will they likely ever have sex, unless they pay for it. That leads to social instability - it is coming.
Forced abortions, on babies who would have lived (done even at 40 weeks).
There is nothing elegant about what China did and still does. Abortion to me is morally and ethically wrong.

If I was younger, I'd have had more kids. Alas, I am 41 and I stopped at 39 with 3. We need MORE smart people having kids. Children are a blessing. If anything, the "first world" countries are not having enough children to continue propping up socialistic programs/retirements.

Live the best you can, and if someone wants to have 15 kids and they can support them, great. I live in a large LDS area, where large families are the norm. If anything, larger families often live with a lot less than those with none or 1 child. Kids share rooms, clothing and 1 vehicle is the norm. They don't go on as many vacations and buy in bulk :-P They buy used a lot. They often only have one parent working. Tell me that isn't green? Instead of 2 cars leaving the house every day, only 1 does. Mom and the kids go walking, to local parks for fun. Often she home schools, so even less use of resources. Since there are so many kids, the do their own cooking, laundry, cleaning and whatnot - eating out is too expensive.

Sorry guys, I know I am not the same as many as you....I am a conservative voting enviro friendly happy breeder :-P With too many friends with large families ;-)

Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear1) - F

Locale: BPL purgatory
Re: Easy to judge on 06/28/2014 19:17:35 MDT Print View

I don't have personal judgement towards you or anyone else here about the topic, like Peter, i just disagree with the extreme, overly passive view expressed. Again, i'm not talking as much about carbon footprint and global climate change, but more about long term pollution issues. I happen to think global climate change is probably two parts long term natural cycle to one part human influence. However, even if that is objectively true (i don't know if it is), again i am concerned about the pollution aspect.

It is frustrating to know, that as much as i try to do as an individual, that it doesn't compare to the effect that factories, and various other extreme pollution sources output, and little i can do about that since our society has come to view these as completely necessary.

If i seem on a high horse about this, it may be because i had some recent, somewhat frustrating experiences, which i did apply my big picture philosophy to, which helped when i started to get those twinges of anger, stress, and/or sadness.

I volunteered at the FireFly Festival recently, so for four days, for about 6 hours a day, i was picking up trash and recycling. What i saw and experienced was kind of upsetting in it's extremity. Seas of trash littered on the ground when there were containers with room right there, people throwing large amounts of recyclables into the trash containers and large amounts of trash into the recyclable containers. It seemed obvious that some people had no idea what the difference between the two was, or either didn't care. Occasionally people (mostly women!) thanked us for doing the work which was nice, but i really couldn't understand why so many people couldn't just responsibly and correctly put away this stuff.

Btw, i didn't volunteer for any noble purposes, volunteers got into the festival for 25 dollars vs 200 or whatever other folks were paying total (parking, camping, ticket). However, i didn't really want to go in general, but my wife convinced me despite my misgivings. I did really enjoy the Foo Fighters show, until it stopped, people left and the sea of trash on ground appeared...

So maybe to some extent, i'm proving your points, but i still believe that positive change can happen if enough people care enough.

Perhaps that's naive. I'm not too worried about it though, because for a long while (since about age 12), i've been getting a strong feeling that something big is going to happen to change things. I've been getting this feeling before i was even aware of or cared about any of this kind of stuff. I've come to trust these kinds of feelings, because they often prove accurate and helpful. Like, i've had experiences when i'm speeding (something i try not to do for various reasons), and have gotten a feeling to slow down or literally "cop" popped into my mind out of the blue, and sure enough a little while later, i see one. I've had other more dramatic experiences along these lines as well.

But, even though i do think some big change will happen in the near future that will totally reorient everyone and probably reduce population quite a bit, i still plan to do my part meanwhile, because i know it's important to live mostly in the present and do ones best now. And ultimately, while i think it's important to treat the Earth positively and with respect, i think it's even more important to treat people positively and with respect.