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Rational Solo Fear
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Justin Baker
(justin_baker) - F

Locale: Santa Rosa, CA
Re: Re: Keeping it real on 05/16/2014 16:54:52 MDT Print View

Michael, I am a strong supporter of the 2nd amendment and was a little irked at that statement. But there is no need to derail the thread because of it. Just ignore it and move on.

Marko Botsaris
(millonas) - F - MLife

Locale: Santa Cruz Mountains, CA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: directly to chaff - why? on 05/16/2014 16:55:01 MDT Print View

Once again a bunch of mostly men pontoficating on a an issue they can barely imagine or shifting the focus. I agree the terminology she used was over the top but somehow I got it without having a fit. I think I have to give any woman a full pass on this issue, shut up and listen, and would frankly be embarrassed to get all pissy when one gets hyperbolic on the issue of fears of this type. Context is important.

Face it guys we are as a general rule pigs and it may be the best policy under certain special circumstances to shut up and smile. They have a lot more shit on us than we ever will have on them. ;-)

I'm sure she would admit that in reality she would on average be way more likely to be helped than hurt be someone resembling the person she described. This issue of fears was being discussed and like it or not sterotupes are a big part of that

Edited by millonas on 05/16/2014 17:45:03 MDT.

Erica R.
(skrapp138) - M
Re: Re: Re: I've had a moment... on 05/16/2014 17:04:23 MDT Print View

"Interestingly the only thing I've ever been afraid of in the woods are creepy guys."

Jennifer I had a laugh at this! I'm right there with you. I probably have what might be considered an unhealthy-lack-of-fear of wildlife (except for grizzlies...) but the elusive "creepy dude" - especially one that is drunk. This is one creature that my NOLS course did not prepare me for.

Pepper spray is a decent idea - though it does suck if it would ever have to come to that. Depending on the area I'm heading and how remote, it's not a bad idea. Or I can just work on some ninja training and save the weight (wouldn't that be awesome?).

Justin Baker
(justin_baker) - F

Locale: Santa Rosa, CA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: directly to chaff - why? on 05/16/2014 17:06:41 MDT Print View

Idunno Mark, you ever see deliverance?

I've been sexually harassed before by creepy gay men before, it's less common but it does happen.

Edited by justin_baker on 05/16/2014 18:56:00 MDT.

Luke Schmidt
(Cameron) - MLife

Locale: The WOODS
A different take on 05/16/2014 17:20:25 MDT Print View

Let me try a different approach, I'm not going to bash Jennifer because I doubt she meant harm. I'm not going to bash those who bashed her because I understand where they are coming from.

For those of you not living in a gun filled red state allow me to educate you...

When people who support a traditional reading of the 2nd Amendment see comments like Jennifer's they immediately think of all the nasty things they've been called in the gun control debate. And there thought is "That is one of the people who thinks we're all a bunch of drunk rednecks driving beat up trucks and shooting anything that moves. And she probably thinks we live in trailers, marry our cousins and get fat drinking beer on flee infested sofas. And she'll probably say we love our guns more then our kids because we didn't support Obama's gun control push."

Jennifer did not say all those things but the words she used would remind you of those who do, hence the reaction she got.

Jennifer probably spoke in ignorance but she touched a raw nerve with people who feel like they aren't being treated with any kind of respect. Hopefully we as a country learn to be more tolerant of people we disagree with.

Edit - I changed this again just to be clear I am NOT implying that this list is what Jennifer or anyone here is saying. But its the conglomeration of what gun owners have been hearing lately. Intentional or not she hit a sore spot for many people.

Edited by Cameron on 05/16/2014 18:55:50 MDT.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I've had a moment... on 05/16/2014 17:22:52 MDT Print View

> How would having a partner mitigate that risk?

They might, for instance, have a mobile phone?
Or at least a tent?

Cheers

Marko Botsaris
(millonas) - F - MLife

Locale: Santa Cruz Mountains, CA
Re: A different take on 05/16/2014 17:33:57 MDT Print View

Luke all true, and well said. Just be careful you don't in turn stereotype the people you are claiming oppose you. The person you describe above, if you could find one that thinks all that, is exactly as representative of those folks as a group, and what that actually think, as Jennifer's straw man. Both are on the tails of the tails of the bell curve. Now that you are both on the same level maybe let it drop my brother.

Edited by millonas on 05/16/2014 17:43:51 MDT.

TKB 1979
(ARIZONA1979) - M

Locale: DESERT SOUTHWEST
Re: Re: Re: Re: I've had a moment... on 05/16/2014 17:46:32 MDT Print View

"I probably have what might be considered an unhealthy-lack-of-fear of wildlife (except for grizzlies...)"

I get the creepers just looking at your bear photo. At least I'd faint & be unconscious for the mauling?

I don't know about all the chaff stuff - personally not all that sensitive that way - but I, as a guy, have run into a similar scenario (minus, I hope, the sexual intent - never really thought about that part).

Came up on 5 or 6 "hunters" - drunk as skunks - and obviously bored since I seemed to be a source of amusement. They wanted to "check out" my pack & gear, pulling at it, laughing, etc. I'm not gonna lie, I'm not an easy target but was more than a little worried. Nothing came of it, but didn't feel right until getting around a bend without any firearms going off. Keep in mind, I'm also in Arizona (okay, that might be chaff). :)

So yea, I'd say rational fear. Probably stats on harm caused by people vs. grizzlies somewhere around here ....

Luke Schmidt
(Cameron) - MLife

Locale: The WOODS
Re Re A different take on 05/16/2014 17:50:07 MDT Print View

Point taken and edited for clarity Marko, and just to rephrase I do not think that long list of insults is what Jennifer was going for. Its what someone might carelessly read into her comment.

Edited by Cameron on 05/16/2014 17:53:15 MDT.

Marko Botsaris
(millonas) - F - MLife

Locale: Santa Cruz Mountains, CA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I've had a moment... on 05/16/2014 17:52:45 MDT Print View

"They wanted to "check out" my pack & gear, pulling at it, laughing, etc."

It's all in good fun until one of them tells you that you have a "purdy mouth". When that happens jump on the back of the nearest Grizzly and ride it to safety.

Yep, got all my over the top stereotypes from Deliverance, like Justin. ;-)

Yeah Luke, I might be wrong but I took her initial comment as a combo of fear, and an almost "standup comic" throwaway stereotype line. These things don't really come off all that well on line. It would have been funny said in a certain tone of voice.

Edited by millonas on 05/16/2014 18:58:42 MDT.

Luke Schmidt
(Cameron) - MLife

Locale: The WOODS
RE TKB on 05/16/2014 17:57:56 MDT Print View

You should have let them look at the pack and offered to hold their rifles for them. Actually that would be a pretty good hint as to how sober/safe they were. If they'd checked the weapon or asked if you know firearms handling you'd at least have known they were safe.

Marko Botsaris
(millonas) - F - MLife

Locale: Santa Cruz Mountains, CA
Re: RE TKB on 05/16/2014 18:14:48 MDT Print View

Its important to to have actual connections through real people rather than through stereotypes. I remember seeing a TV show about a group of women hunting deer for the first time. One of them killed a deer and the women were gather around it and were oohing and awing on how beautiful it was, and it was easy to see they loved both the outdoors and in fact the animals in their way. Taken out of context without an open heart not so much. I would in fact trust the protection of the environment they loved and experienced to them far more that I would to someone in it merely as an issue of personal purity. Anyone actually seeing these old gals as people and not ideological stereotypes, even if they had a personal problem with the killing or even the gun part, would have to admit they were actually potential allies in preserving the environment. Anything that gets in between that contact is the real problem - or as politicians call it - a tool.

/toggle off off-topic ramble

Edited by millonas on 05/16/2014 18:16:40 MDT.

TKB 1979
(ARIZONA1979) - M

Locale: DESERT SOUTHWEST
Re: Re: RE TKB on 05/16/2014 18:51:04 MDT Print View

Marko & Luke - appreciate your responses & agree. (Didn't have the guts to ask for a gun, though - I'll remember that.) Cool site to be on.

Luke Schmidt
(Cameron) - MLife

Locale: The WOODS
Calling Dougles on 05/16/2014 18:58:54 MDT Print View

Where is Doug, I see so much material here for one of his jokes...

Bob Moulder
(bobmny10562) - M

Locale: Westchester County, NY
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I've had a moment... on 05/16/2014 19:23:50 MDT Print View

"It would have been funny said in a certain tone of voice."

Hmm... well golly gee whiz, it wouldn't be ALL that difficult for Jennifer to clarify the intent of her "2nd Amendment fetish" phrase. Was she just talkin' 'bout drunk yahoos with guns (who scare all of us!) or was she lumping in all competent, law-abiding firearms owners and users? Simple question, no?

Help us out here, Jennifer!

Libertarian and Conservative Guys and Gals, it's okay to stop twisting yourself into a pretzel apologizing for your objections to liberal stereotyping (whether or not that was Jennifer's intent - will we ever find out?). Let them try it for a change.

Yes, Libertarians and Conservatives should not stereotype. But neither should Liberals.

It is about time they are taken to task for doing so, as they have been doing with impunity for so many years.

Time for Jennifer to clear the air.

Marko Botsaris
(millonas) - F - MLife

Locale: Santa Cruz Mountains, CA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I've had a moment... on 05/16/2014 19:31:59 MDT Print View

"It is about time they are taken to task for doing so, as they have been doing with impunity for so many years. "

Christ on a bicycle, let it go! Take it to chaff or better to a more appropriate website.

Edited by millonas on 05/16/2014 19:32:30 MDT.

Bob Moulder
(bobmny10562) - M

Locale: Westchester County, NY
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I've had a moment... on 05/16/2014 19:42:13 MDT Print View

"Take it to chaff"

I would suggest that, but didn't somebody do that already??

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Keeping it real on 05/16/2014 19:42:33 MDT Print View

"Just keeping it real."

Thanks for posting. About as spot on a comment on the subject as I've ever heard on BPL. Really not much left to say, is there?

Jason Elsworth
(jephoto) - M

Locale: New Zealand
Rational Solo Fear on 05/16/2014 20:06:40 MDT Print View

Removes palm from face, and gives thanks that Chaff no longer shows up in recent posts. I do almost all my trips solo and river crossings are my main concern.

Also a big + 1 to Tom's recent comment on the keeping it real post.

Edited by jephoto on 05/16/2014 20:10:49 MDT.

Marko Botsaris
(millonas) - F - MLife

Locale: Santa Cruz Mountains, CA
Partners and Water Crossings on 05/16/2014 20:47:31 MDT Print View

On topic, I too agree with the folks for whom solo for river crossings are a rational fear. I had a friend die under analogous circumstances, and on a trip I backed out of at the last moment. So solo, slips on bank, hits head on rock and knocked out, ended up face down in shallow water, drowns. With a partner maybe a good chance to avoid the last part by getting pulled out/flipped over. I agree it sounds like a bit of a stretch, but apparently this scenario happens all the time according to the ranger I dealt with when my friend went missing. The hypothermia is an another, since if you reach the point where you loose good control of your limbs, and/or your thinking, having a someone else there to be you surrogate brain and hands for a time can save you life.

On the other hand it doesn't stop me, and like others have said, I enjoy the added level of attention I pay to things when solo. Like a lot of things, the level of mental pressure is if not pleasurable, then fulfilling, but as it is ramped up there is a point where it become too much. For example, at least at my level of skill and lack of grace at times, if I tired to do parts of the High Sierra Route solo it would simply become mentally debilitating, and I think for me that also would be a useful and wise fear. Not saying it wouldn't be very useful exercise in self knowledge, just probably too much for me mentally to consciously seek it out. I'm no Aron Ralston.

I realize a lot of high level climbing, for example, is about rationally approaching this edge and pushing a bit past each time, and that some people feel this process is the most meaningful thing they have ever experienced in their life. I can believe it. I just feel like playing with that edge is not for me. I'm happy to look over the rational fear cliff from a safe distance rather than to intentionally dangle my legs over the edge.

Edited by millonas on 05/16/2014 21:07:03 MDT.