Subscribe Contribute Advertise Facebook Twitter Instagram Forums Newsletter
Hikin Jim's "Dry Out West" Stove Article at GG
Display Avatars Sort By:
Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
Re: Re: re: greg on 05/14/2014 14:33:05 MDT Print View

"I don't see how you get that clearing a spot leads to fire."

I said STILL leads to fire. As in: Is there evidence that you still get a fire even if you clear the spot for 5 feet in any direction?

""I am seriously interested in the evidence that EVEN with clearing a spot, it CAN still lead to fires."

Does that meet with your approval?

Edited by mpl_35 on 05/14/2014 14:35:23 MDT.

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
Re: Re: Re: re: greg on 05/14/2014 14:57:15 MDT Print View

Jerry,

right. I think we need better education of stove use, but when it gets hot and dry, better safe than sorry. Like many things in life, the lowest common denominator ruins it for everybody.

Peter J
(northoakland) - M

Locale: Temescal Creek
a bit more background information on 05/14/2014 15:22:04 MDT Print View

Since ya'll are getting into the weeds here-

Take a look at this PDF from CAl FIRE
http://www.fire.ca.gov/communications/downloads/fact_sheets/campfiretips.pdf

It contains excerpts from the CA Public Resources Code that define what a campfire is, and some of the consequences one might face if one starts a wildfire. There is some inconsistency between the recommendations from CAL Fire (clear 10' in each direction) and that from the Stanislaus National Forest (clear 3' in each direction).

For more perspective on CAL Fire's take on all of this:

http://www.fire.ca.gov/communications/communications_firesafety_camping_campfirepermits.php

One advantage of the recommended 20' in diameter circles is that it will be easy for land mangers to do campsite inventories from their desktops using aerial imagery.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Is there any consensus on 05/14/2014 17:30:00 MDT Print View

on whether Starlyte stoves are: 1) Safe; 2) Permitted?

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Is there any consensus on 05/14/2014 17:41:52 MDT Print View

Tom, the authorities are not smart enough to make any distinction between a Starlyte stove versus a more conventional alcohol stove. So, if they say that your stove must have an on-off switch, I guess they mean that.

I'm still trying to get opinions from some of the other jurisdictions.

Next time that I head up to the mountains to get my wilderness permit, I will have an Esbit stove packed. However, in my car I will have a butane stove so that I can make a last-minute swap in case they require it.

--B.G.--

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Is there any consensus on 05/14/2014 18:16:20 MDT Print View

"However, in my car I will have a butane stove so that I can make a last-minute swap in case they require it."

I'm leaning in that direction, too. Reluctantly.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Is there any consensus on 05/14/2014 18:17:27 MDT Print View

"Is there any consensus...."

You do know you're posting on BPL, right?

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Is there any consensus on 05/14/2014 18:20:46 MDT Print View

"You do know you're posting on BPL, right?"

Uh...right. Another senior moment. Thanks for having my back.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Is there any consensus on 05/14/2014 18:56:07 MDT Print View

One problem with any bureaucracy in my experience is that the left hand rarely talks to the right. Complicating the issue, I've found that NPS, BLM, USDA, EIEIO staff really want to be helpful and sometimes would rather give a wrong answer than say "I don't know." As Bob mentioned, I doubt their policy is sophisticated enough to distinguish a Starlyte stove from a cat can. If by some miracle it is, I'd personally carry the regulation/policy with me (or at least an image of it on my phone) to show any backcountry rangers who might be unaware of it.

Not trying to throw any of these agencies under the bus as I've never had a bad experience with any of them but I'm at a point that I've given up on them as a over the phone source for trail or snow conditions (for trekking not avalanche).

Randy Nelson
(rlnunix) - F - M

Locale: Rockies
Re: stoves on 05/14/2014 21:46:38 MDT Print View

"I asked the question earlier in this thread about what really might be the safest stove - not the ones necessarily that are allowed in fire bans, but for real, which are the safest stoves.

If I have to bring my canister on the JMT - so what? If it reduces the chance that I might accidentally start a fire while I'm dead tired, well great."

Like I said earlier, I follow the regs whether I agree with them or not. But there's no way, IMHO, that an esbit or Starlyte type stove (especially either with a cone) is less safe than white gas stoves which are permitted.

This conversation actually seems to be about which is the idiot proof stove. And the answer is none of them. Anyone can start a fire with any of them if they are careless or stupid enough. So the answer is ban all stoves during high fire danger. And I'm fine with that. But the ones who don't bother to find out about fire bans, and a lot more likely, car campers that know and ignore the ban to have camp fires, will still be a threat.

Because you don't have to be IN the backcountry to set the backcountry on fire. Segment 2 of the CT burned but it wasn't a stove that did it. I'm sure there are many more examples.

Zorg Zumo
(BurnNotice) - F
Re: Re: This went dumb fast on 05/14/2014 23:02:22 MDT Print View

These are examples of what I was referring to..

Nick Gatel wrote - "One of my pet peeves. So many Internet experts who are safe. I see so many articles and blog posts of so called experts demonstrating/reviewing stoves with pictures of stoves sitting on duft, grass, twigs, and all sorts of flammable materials. Even here in articles posted on BPL."

Paul Magnanti wrote - " "I doubt even an alcohol stove knocked over could start much of a fire."

Tell that to the people in Ft. Collins, CO

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_20654312/hewlett-fire-near-fort-collins-at-7-673

:)

There are other examples from the PCT, but I am too lazy to google them."

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Is there any consensus on 05/15/2014 17:47:41 MDT Print View

"One problem with any bureaucracy in my experience is that the left hand rarely talks to the right."

This has its roots in the Middle East, where bureaucracy was invented and the left hand considered unclean.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Another one of my rants from last year... on 05/15/2014 18:05:45 MDT Print View

How to start a forest fire

zorobabel frankenstein
(zorobabel) - F

Locale: SoCal
Re: Re: Re: Hikin Jim's "Dry Out West" Stove Article at GG" on 05/16/2014 10:27:04 MDT Print View

No mention of butane or white gas, canister or liquid. I'll conclude that my Whisperlite is allowed.

"Yes indeed, it's dry out west. The Sequoia National Forest officials just issued Campfire Restrictions that go into effect on May 21st. They only allow gas stoves that have a flame on/off switch. Here's the text

"The Sequoia National Forest, Tule River Reservation, and Bureau of Land Management (BLM) within the Central California District (CND) recently announced an Interagency Declaration to impose fire restrictions for all Federal and State protected lands within Fresno, Tulare, and Kern Counties effective Wednesday May 21, 2014.

In the Sequoia National Forest and Giant Sequoia National Monument campfires and barbecues are only allowed in developed campgrounds or areas designated as exempt from fire restrictions. A list of designated exempt areas can be obtained here

Visitors are allowed to have a portable gas stove or lantern (with a flame on/off switch) outside developed or designated areas with a valid California campfire permit. A campfire permit can be obtained, free of charge, at any Forest Service, CALFIRE, or Bureau of Land Management office."

link - http://www.fs.usda.gov/alerts/sequoia/alerts-notices/?aid=22758"

Edited by zorobabel on 05/16/2014 10:28:04 MDT.