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Hikin Jim's "Dry Out West" Stove Article at GG
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Kevin Buggie
(kbuggie) - M

Locale: NW New Mexico
Re: Re: Re: Re: Fire Bans on 05/07/2014 15:25:55 MDT Print View

My opinion is that we should all try to follow their rules!

My reasoning is that it seems in New Mexico at least, the Forest Service (and local land managers) are all the more likely to go to their 'nuclear option' and just close the forests outright (no entry at all) if they feel their fire restrictions (Stage II) are being skirted around. I'd much rather lug the 10-year old heavy Jetboil around, than have my playgrounds closed for half the summer due to a combination of high fire-danger and high perceived incidence of reckless-ness.

No real data in this observation, just anecdotal experience from a number of years.

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: Re: Re: Re: Fire Bans on 05/07/2014 17:18:21 MDT Print View

Yes Barry - I moved to Austin, TX from Chicago. Still thinking about where to go and what to be when I grow up, but professionally I've found a great clinic and a cool university posting right now.

Of course, I really didn't think any place could be worse than Chicago in terms of being near backpacking sites...whoa was I wrong! Texas is awful.....

Larry De La Briandais
(Hitech) - F

Locale: SF Bay Area
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Fire Bans on 05/07/2014 18:28:08 MDT Print View

"Of course, I really didn't think any place could be worse than Chicago in terms of being near backpacking sites...whoa was I wrong! Texas is awful....."

California is the place you want to be... ;^)

Marko Botsaris
(millonas) - F - MLife

Locale: Santa Cruz Mountains, CA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Fire Bans on 05/07/2014 18:44:55 MDT Print View

"Of course, I really didn't think any place could be worse than Chicago in terms of being near backpacking sites...whoa was I wrong! Texas is awful....."

You just have to adjust to the local customs. In 5 years of living in Austin I seldom went backpacking - possibly because I didn't have a car, and mooching a ride was so time consuming. The thing is, every time I realized how much work it would be I just got stoned with friends, went to the park, and tossed a Frisbee all day. You will find this can distract you from the difficulty of backpacking in the area.

More apropos of this thread - Chicago isn't a fire prone area - NOW! Maybe they learned their lesson. The great Chicago fire of 1871, caused by ... wait for it ... a device containing burning liquid fuel that accidentally got spilled.

rowan !
(romonster) - M

Locale: SF Bay Area
Fire Bans on 05/07/2014 22:55:59 MDT Print View

I wonder, each time I read one of these threads, why those people who consider the rules unreasonable don't petition whatever agency makes the rules to change them. I'm sure that would be a long and frustrating process, but it seems like it should be possible with proper organization and perhaps a lawyer or two. And it would be better than continuing to complain about it forever, right?

The rules on stoves as they generally exist appear to be arbitrary and not very well informed. Maybe they made more sense at one time, I don't know. But it does seem like a review based on modern data would be useful.

Edited by romonster on 05/07/2014 22:57:04 MDT.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Hikin Jim's "Dry Out West" Stove Article at GG on 05/13/2014 22:40:12 MDT Print View

One of my pet peeves. So many Internet experts who are safe. I see so many articles and blog posts of so called experts demonstrating/reviewing stoves with pictures of stoves sitting on duft, grass, twigs, and all sorts of flammable materials. Even here in articles posted on BPL. You need a California Campfire Permit in California to operate a stove, in which you agree to clear an area in all directions 5 feet from the stove. This is generally recommended by any government agency guidelines I have read. Perhaps all theses experts fall into the lowest common denominator category?

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Hikin Jim's "Dry Out West" Stove Article at GG on 05/13/2014 22:45:30 MDT Print View

Nick, those may be generally recommended, but those specific words do not show up on the Wilderness Permit that the National Park Service issues.

I do most of my backpacking in the parks and a little in the national forest wilderness areas outside of the parks. Nobody has ever issued me anything called a California Campfire Permit.

--B.G.--

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Re: Hikin Jim's "Dry Out West" Stove Article at GG on 05/13/2014 22:56:13 MDT Print View

Every Federal agency I know of that operates a unit in California (including the BLM) has this requirement posted on their website. I have gotten a permit every year sine 1971. In the old days I would get mine every year at the USFS Ranger station in Kernville on my annual January pilgrimage to the Southern Sierras. I have actually been asked in a few occasions over the years to produce it in the back country.

CA Campfire Permit

Edited by ngatel on 05/13/2014 23:01:42 MDT.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: Re: Re: Hikin Jim's "Dry Out West" Stove Article at GG on 05/13/2014 23:00:19 MDT Print View

I've always carried one as well. It's easy enough to get.

Stephen Barber
(grampa) - MLife

Locale: SoCal
Re: Re: Re: Hikin Jim's "Dry Out West" Stove Article at GG on 05/13/2014 23:09:10 MDT Print View

BG, if you have a campfire or use a stove in any National Forest in California, you are required to have a California Campfire Permit for the current year. One of the terms for the permit is to have cleared the ground of all flammable debris for five feet in every direction from the campfire or stove.

Thus when you were counting sheep in the Angeles National Forest earlier this year, you should have had a 2014 California Campfire Permit with you if you used a stove or had a campfire. Any forest Service office could have issued you one, or you could have gotten one from here:

http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprdb5443507.pdf

Don't know if the National Parks require it - probably not, since they are under different bureaucratic structures. I have my permit reduce to the size of a post card, and carry a copy in my map/document freezer bag.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Re: Re: Hikin Jim's "Dry Out West" Stove Article at GG on 05/13/2014 23:12:41 MDT Print View

Nick, your permit is for BLM or Forest Service. It says that National Parks require special campfire permits, basically, because campfires are more restricted in many national parks. The wilderness permit in Yosemite, for example, does not have any of that wording. In Yosemite, there are lots of places where no wood campfire is permitted, but I have never seen any sort of backpacker stove that wasn't permitted (WG, butane, alcohol, Esbit). I think that they consider a woodburning stove to be in the same category as a wood campfire.

--B.G.--

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Re: Re: Hikin Jim's "Dry Out West" Stove Article at GG on 05/13/2014 23:18:36 MDT Print View

Stephen, that is not a requirement in the national forests that I've traveled in for the last several years now. I go to the permit station, they issue me the wilderness permit, and there is nothing said about campfires. They sometimes ask me what kind of stove I am carrying. I tell them Esbit, the permit is signed, and I'm off.

No, there was no requirement for me to have a campfire permit in the Angeles National Forest, either. I camped in an established campground, the one that the feds suggested to me.

I don't know where you guys get all of these ideas that are just not quite right.

--B.G.--

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hikin Jim's "Dry Out West" Stove Article at GG on 05/13/2014 23:34:04 MDT Print View

Bob, you maybe be right about National Parks in California -- if so I have been carrying a lot of extra weight in JTNP. The CalFire website infers they are required. To my knowledge they are required in all national forests in Calif., and there might be exceptions. Generally they are not required in developed campgrounds.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hikin Jim's "Dry Out West" Stove Article at GG on 05/13/2014 23:44:54 MDT Print View

Nick, I think that you guys are very familiar with the red tape in those Southern California jurisdictions where you operate. You know what kind of paperwork they require of you.

However, I operate mostly north of Highway 58, as we had once agreed. The only national parks that I've been in lately are SEKI, Yosemite, and Lassen. The only NF wilderness areas where I backpack are Hoover, Ansel Adams, and John Muir. So, I only know the kind of paperwork that they've required of me.

I think I saw a California Campfire Permit form once twenty years ago. Maybe.

--B.G.--

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hikin Jim's "Dry Out West" Stove Article at GG on 05/14/2014 00:06:13 MDT Print View

I know for sure that campfire permits (stoves and lanterns are included) are required in Sequoia and Inyo National Forests. Last month I was in Shasta-Trinity National Forest and they also require one. Mine is always in my pack so I never really check. It is my understanding that any part of the JMT that is in a National Forest requires a campfire permit. Now if all the units do not have a standard policy... well it's the government you know :)

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hikin Jim's "Dry Out West" Stove Article at GG on 05/14/2014 00:23:54 MDT Print View

"Now if all the units do not have a standard policy... well it's the government you know"

The National Park Service is under the Department of the Interior. They intend to protect the park land.

The National Forest Service is under the Department of Agriculture. They believe in multiple use of the land (logging, mining, grazing, etc., backpacking).

Two completely different organizations with completely different management. I'm surprised that they collaborate on the things that they do.

Also, the JMT runs from park to park to forest to park. You can get one wilderness permit at one end, go to the other end on the same permit, and never have a campfire permit at all.

--B.G.--

Stephen Barber
(grampa) - MLife

Locale: SoCal
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hikin Jim's "Dry Out West" Stove Article at GG on 05/14/2014 00:39:34 MDT Print View

"Stephen, that is not a requirement in the national forests that I've traveled in for the last several years now. I go to the permit station, they issue me the wilderness permit, and there is nothing said about campfires. They sometimes ask me what kind of stove I am carrying. I tell them Esbit, the permit is signed, and I'm off.

No, there was no requirement for me to have a campfire permit in the Angeles National Forest, either. I camped in an established campground, the one that the feds suggested to me."


Established campgrounds generally do not require the campfire permit - though at one point when we were in Sequoia NF last year, when fire danger was high, there was a 6 hour period when the campground host said we would need one - and I promptly whipped mine out! But that would explain the Angeles NF reaction.

However, in the three NF here in SoCal that I regularly hike in, plus three farther north (Stanislaus and Inyo), I've had to show my campfire permit to get a wilderness permit. No exceptions. So...how much are ya paying the office personnel where you hike to pass you on the campfire thing? ;)

Seriously, back to Nick's point, if folks followed the CA campfire permit requirement of clearing combustible out to 5' from the stove, I doubt even an alcohol stove knocked over could start much of a fire.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hikin Jim's "Dry Out West" Stove Article at GG on 05/14/2014 00:54:10 MDT Print View

"So...how much are ya paying the office personnel where you hike to pass you on the campfire thing?"

Don't ask me why they operate the way they do. Inyo, specifically, is where one person in the office tells me one thing, then I ask for a second opinion, and the second person in the office says it is something completely opposite. I know for a fact that nobody has ever asked me any questions about having a water bucket or a shovel/trowel. Now, if they asked, I could show them my bear canister, and it would hold quite a bit of water if necessary. The so-called potty trowel is an aluminum snow stake. But, nobody has ever asked me, at least not in the last twenty or more years.

There was one time back during the Truman Administration...

--B.G.--

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Hikin Jim's "Dry Out West" Stove Article at GG on 05/14/2014 01:04:28 MDT Print View

"Seriously, back to Nick's point, if folks followed the CA campfire permit requirement of clearing combustible out to 5' from the stove, I doubt even an alcohol stove knocked over could start much of a fire."

Ah, that was the point; and also the fact that almost every stove I see on a blog or in a stove article is not being used safely... no wonder we have to ban some stoves.

Paul Magnanti
(PaulMags) - MLife

Locale: People's Republic of Boulder
Hikin Jim's "Dry Out West" Stove Article at GG" on 05/14/2014 07:10:54 MDT Print View

"I doubt even an alcohol stove knocked over could start much of a fire."

Tell that to the people in Ft. Collins, CO

http://www.denverpost.com/ci_20654312/hewlett-fire-near-fort-collins-at-7-673

:)

There are other examples from the PCT, but I am too lazy to google them.