Bundy......A True American Hero?
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. Kirby
(Kirby805) - F
Piling on Ken on 04/15/2014 18:26:12 MDT Print View

As much as I believe that racism plays some role in the antipathy towards the current president, I don't think it's particularly germane to this incident since these far right wing nuts have been around since the 50s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_movement

David Adair
(DavidAdair) - M

Locale: West Dakota
Re: Piling on Ken on 04/15/2014 19:07:30 MDT Print View

I haven't spent much time reading up on this situation as there have been squabbles between land agencies and ranchers for decades. However, I did peruse the comments on some of the usual liberal websites. The number of comments (from so called liberals) which advocate calling in the military and killing them all is a bit troubling.

So it seems there is no shortage of far left wing wackos either. Really who are these people? Not democrats. Or is the new democratic party just a bunch of socialist flakes?

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Piling on Ken on 04/15/2014 20:09:41 MDT Print View

"So it seems there is no shortage of far left wing wackos either. Really who are these people? Not democrats. Or is the new democratic party just a bunch of socialist flakes?"

Nah, the new Democratic Party is just Republican Lite. The ones you're talking about are just garden variety left wing nut jobs. No shortage on either wing these days, as far as I can tell.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Bundy......A True American Hero? on 04/15/2014 20:16:09 MDT Print View

""Ken is just a douchebag troll"

This is just rude and deserves an apology. We can be adults and discuss it civilly without comments like this. Honestly, it's something Ken himself would post. The conservative point of view should not resort to name calling. We can win the arguments based on the quality of our points and the fact that we are the opposite of a belief in the indiscriminateness of thought. Logic will always prevail over their positions of "facts" based on opinions.

M

Edited by bigfoot2 on 04/16/2014 10:19:05 MDT.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Back on topic. on 04/15/2014 20:30:41 MDT Print View

Does anyone have any news about the cows? I have been hearing that some of the Bundy Grandchildren have found a mass grave that the cattle shot and killed by the BLM have been dumped into and that they are still trying to save the new born calves left to starve by the BLM.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Bundy Ranch - What You're Not Being Told on 04/15/2014 21:41:36 MDT Print View

Very interesting article that brings up some valid points from SCGNEWS.com.

Link to article and video:

http://scgnews.com/bundy-ranch-what-youre-not-being-told



Text:

"There are some very powerful people who have done their best to cover up what really happened at the Bundy ranch in Clark County Nevada. Fortunately they failed.

In this we're going to present you with evidence of blatant corruption and criminal activities that anyone, including law enforcement, can easily verify.

But before we go into the details, it's important to acknowledge here, that the political left and the political right are watching this crisis through very different eyes. You on the left saw this old rancher defying the Federal government over cattle grazing fees, with right wing pundits pleading his case, and armed militia moving in to intervene... it probably gave you the impression of Tea Party temper tantrum... with guns. Given some of the personalities who were involved in the media circus surrounding this, that impression is perfectly understandable, but underneath the appearances there is something here that all Americans need to see, whether they consider themselves conservative, liberal or none of the above.

All I ask is that you suspend your preconceived notions of what this crisis was about, for five minutes.

First let's eliminate some of the disinformation, speculation and conspiracy theories.

Here's a story that a lot of people were spreading around without fact checking. It got 47,000 shares on Facebook alone. The author claims that the siege of the Bundy ranch was about was really about fracking leases. That's a provocative narrative, one that I actually found very interesting. But just because something is plausible doesn't mean it's true. For evidence, the article links out to this page on the shalereporter.com, which does indeed talk about Bureau of Land Management (aka BLM) leasing out land in Nevada for Fracking. Trouble is, the author and 47,000 other people overlooked the blatantly obvious fact that the land in question is in north eastern Nevada. Clark county isn't in North Eastern Nevada. That's not a minor detail. Please, pretty please with a cherry on top, fact check before you spread information people. Always fact check.

Then there was this other line that kept getting spread around (and this is a direct quote):
"There are developers working for military contractors that want that land and water for mining weapons grade minerals for industry... they want to sell the land by the highway for real estate development because it's close to I-15". This claim wasn't backed up by even so much as a link. It was pure hearsay. Furthermore it doesn't even make sense. Military contractors (like Blackwater) want land for mining? And weapons grade minerals? To be perfectly honest I get the impression that this story was fabricated by some stoned college kid who thought it would be hilarious to send it to an alternative media outlet as a prank. You got to admit as prank that's pretty epic, especially since it worked. A media figure with a fairly decent sized audience, and I'm not going to name names, blasted it out to the public as is without asking for evidence or even critically examining the claim. A lot of people took that report and started spreading it around, and pretty soon there were people just repeating the narrative not even knowing where it came from. That's bad. Providing an echo chamber unfounded rumors and wild speculation is not journalism. The alternative media really needs to tighten their standards of evidence.

Alright, moving along, here we have this story that the showdown in Nevada was really about an underhanded business deal involving Senator Harry Reid, his son, the BLM and a 5 billion dollar solar energy plant. You probably saw a few people sharing links making these claims. Let's fact check.

Claim number one: Senator Harry Reid's son, Rory Reid (try saying that name ten times as fast as you can), is the primary representative for ENN energy group, a Chinese energy company involved in a $5 billion solar project planned for Clark County Nevada, on the on land where the Bundy ranch is located. First source: Reuters: Aug 31, 2012. Well this is interesting. It turns out that the conflicts of interest in this project were well documented, but Harry pushed it through anyway. He pushed it through in spite of the controversy that was stirred up when the land was sold to ENN for $4.5 million dollars even though separate appraisals valued the land at between $29.6 million and $38.6 million.

Claim number two: Reid put one of his former employees in charge of the Bureau of land management and thereby used his leverage in the agency to clear the Bundy's off the land. What do they claim as their source: CBS Las Vegas. Hmmm... That's interesting. Neil Kornze, the current BLM Chief is a former adviser for Harry Reid, and Harry Reid is the Senate Majority leader, and therefore was directly involved in his confirmation. That's another serious conflict of interest there considering that the BLM is claiming jurisdiction over the land where Rory Reid's company wants to build.

But do we have any evidence that Reid actually exercised that influence in the agency to get what he wanted? Well that brings us to claim number three: Supposedly the BLM had posted on their website that they needed to get the Bundy family off of the land to make room for the energy project, but the BLM has since removed the page. The website that made this claim posted a screen shot split into two files and a link to a text version of the page that someone had copied. This is pretty weak. Though it does seem to match the overall narrative here, this would never be admissible in court. But let's dig a little deeper shall we. What if there is a version of the site cached somewhere on the web? Let's try the way back machine on archive.org. Nope, no dice, the page was never cached on way back machine. Let's try google's cache... BINGO! Here it is folks. This is google's record of what used to be on the site.

To download the full screenshot, right click on the image below and select "Save Image As".
Bundy Ranch - Page That they took down from the BLM website - Solar Project

"Non-Governmental Organizations have expressed concern that the regional mitigation strategy for the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone utilizes Gold Butte as the location for offsite mitigation for impacts from solar development, and that those restoration activities are not durable with the presence of trespass cattle"

They specifically referred to the solar project as a justification to seize Cliven Bundy's cattle.

Funny thing, we found the mitigation strategy for the Dry Lake Solar Energy zone, and guess who wrote it? That would be the BLM. Pretty convenient, for Harry Reid isn't it?

Now I took a screen shot of the Google cache right away. As I'm compiling this information I go back and I look at it again an hour later and what do you know, somebody came and took the cached version down. Somebody is trying to cover this thing up and fast. But you know what, they missed one. I found this cached version of the page on archive.is. If you follow the link in the description to our website SCG News.com you'll find a direct link to this page. I highly recommend that each and every one of you go and verify its contents for yourself before someone has it taken down.

Click here to view the cached version of the page that the BLM was desperately trying to hide.

Or click here to get to that link from another path.

But even if they take this last link down they left trail. Google's server logs will still have a record of the exact date their cached snap shot was taken, chances are they still have that snap shot, and you know what? Even if someone tried to erase it completely, with modern technology It is very easy for forensic technicians to recover data like this even if it seems to be deleted from the system. The digital trace is still there. The BLM's servers and every computer involved also have a trail, and trying to remove that trail would leave an even bigger trail.

All we need is somebody in law enforcement with a spine, but that's another story isn't it.

This isn't about turtles folks. It's not even about cattle. This is about money and power.

Turns out our little friend Harry Reid has a nice little empire rigged for himself in Nevada. Let's take a look at this article from the LA Times. This is from 2003. Apparently it's no secret that Harry's way of profiting off his position is by using his influence to push through deals that help his family members. He's got family representing virtually every major industry and they are doing quite well thank you very much. Thing is, this is technically not illegal. In fact it has become the standard way to bribe politicians in the United States. You can't line their pockets directly, but you can line their son's pockets, and their cousin's pockets and their uncle's pockets all you want.

However using a federal agency to seize cattle, and physically intimidate and brutalize a family to facilitate that dirty deal. That's all kinds of illegal. Then they to attempt to cover up the evidence... and that's also a crime.

Again, all we need is a law enforcement officer with a spine.

I'll be perfectly honest. When I saw some of the media personalities that were capitalizing on this this drama, I was very skeptical, but once I saw what was really going on I understood right away why people's blood is boiling.

Take another look at what happened on that ranch, the military style crack down, the violence. Imagine Clive Bundy was your father or grandfather. Imagine if his wife was your mother or grandmother. Imagine it was your family who's livelihood was being destroyed by some filthy rich politician who just can't get enough.

What happened in Clark County Nevada struck a nerve with the American people, but the response we saw had very little to do with this particular crisis. There is something much deeper brewing under the surface in the United States. This showdown was just a catalyst.

It wasn't the greatest atrocity of the decade or even of the year. I wish people had felt this moved by the NSA's domestic spying program, or the secret kill list, or the drone program, or the Libyan war, or the Iraq war or the Afghan war. I wish people had been activated by something bigger than the plight of a cattle rancher. But you know what? We don't get to pick the breaking point.

Rosa Parks sparked a civil rights movement with her refusal to sit in the back of the bus. Clive Bundy almost started the 2nd American revolution by refusing to let the feds run him over.

What we saw in Nevada clearly demonstrated just how easily that breaking point can be reached.

Now even knowing the real story, hearing about militia mobilizing all over the country to come physically defend the Bundy family is probably still very disconcerting for many progressives, this was a very dangerous situation. A lot of people could have ended up dead. But consider this: remember back in 2011 when riot police swooped in to brutally crush the occupy movement? Remember how you felt? No one stood up for them. No one fought back. And what was the result? The thugs won.The media quickly switched to a new distraction, and the public forgot.

Imagine if it had been different. Imagine if people swarmed in from all over the country; not to wave signs in the air, but to stand up for your rights; even if they disagreed with you politically. That didn't happen, but it should have.

It's been said that the enemy of your enemy is your friend. Trouble is, the people of the United States have been a bit confused about who the enemy really is. You've been allowing a thuggish, out of control, corporate owned government to persecute your ideological rivals, not realizing that the same boot will someday be grinding your face into the dirt. And all the while your common enemy, your real enemy gets stronger, and more aggressive, more lawless, and more blatantly corrupt as we dance the left right left right two step to tyranny. They've been playing you like a fiddle.

But the sleeping giant is starting to wake up.

And they are scared to death of you.

Now as for Harry Reid. He may just be one rotten apple in a barrel full of rotten apples, but he needs to be brought to justice.

To all of you out there who call yourself law enforcement, the American people are putting down a line the sand. If you don't stand up for justice, if you do not hold these scum bags accountable for their crimes, if you do not at least raise your voice and take a public stand then you are an accomplice. You are discrediting the entire framework of law and order, and you are giving the people a clear mandate to remove you from your office."

Edited by bigfoot2 on 04/16/2014 10:14:31 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Bundy Ranch - What You're Not Being Told on 04/15/2014 21:59:43 MDT Print View

scgnews looks like a real objective source of information ; )

most websites have an "about us" link that talks about who the people are that run the site, their history and so forth

Like Micheal's cepr.net has the names of the board of directors, names of people I can look up on wikipedia,...

google search gave me a "who is scg" link, but it's just more rambling, doesn't name anyone

Dean L
(AldoLeopold) - F

Locale: Great Lakes
Re: Re: Bundy Ranch - What You're Not Being Told on 04/15/2014 22:12:52 MDT Print View

"SCGnews looks like a real objective source of information ;)"

Yea but it sure aint no Divine Caroline!

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Bundy Ranch - What You're Not Being Told on 04/15/2014 22:43:16 MDT Print View

http://www.politico.com/story/2014/04/cliven-bundy-nevada-ranch-tea-party-105723.html

"Sean Hannity and Glenn Beck have interviewed him on their shows. Fox News’s “The Five” debated his actions. The Drudge Report is giving prominent play to all the latest Bundy coverage."

"So far, all signs suggest that national Republicans and tea party officials aren’t about to jump on the Bundy bandwagon."

"...they also have to talk about a guy who didn’t pay his grazing fees for more than 20 years, in a state where the federal government owns 86 percent of the land, and where other ranchers just go ahead and pay the fees.

At that point, it’s not such a powerful rallying cry anymore."

. Kirby
(Kirby805) - F
Re: Bundy Ranch - What You're Not Being Told on 04/16/2014 09:57:46 MDT Print View

"You are discrediting the entire framework of law and order..."

The irony. It burns.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
SCGnews on 04/16/2014 10:18:25 MDT Print View

"SCGnews looks like a real objective source of information ;)"

Never said it was objective. I said that it was "...very interesting article that brings up some valid points from SCGNEWS.com"

Do I agree with all of it, no. Do I think it brings up some troubling points, yes. At least it was well researched and all the info was linked and able to be found, unlike some on this thread that is just facts based on opinions. I think the point of the article was lost on most here.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: SCGnews on 04/16/2014 10:40:56 MDT Print View

http://www.forwardprogressives.com/time-honest-tea-party-become-terrorist-group/



Bout sums it up really. ..

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: SCGnews on 04/16/2014 17:23:23 MDT Print View

and Justin, if you are calling ME a douche and a troll I feel that is out of line. For one YOU don't know me big boy and secondly, name calling of that order is not really cool here. Please refrain from name calling like that, as I would hate to see you banned
from here :) 'kay?

If YOU have a personal beef with ME, then pm me. Dude I don't even know you

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re on 04/16/2014 17:29:20 MDT Print View

Implying that someone here is racist is not very nice either; something to keep in mind.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Bundy......A True American Hero? on 04/16/2014 17:37:46 MDT Print View

"and Justin, if you are calling ME a douche and a troll I feel that is out of line. For one YOU don't know me big boy and secondly, name calling of that order is not really cool here. Please refrain from name calling like that, as I would hate to see you banned
from here :) 'kay?

If YOU have a personal beef with ME, then pm me. Dude I don't even know you"

"http://www.forwardprogressives.com/time-honest-tea-party-become-terrorist-group/



Bout sums it up really. ."

You know, I take it back. No apology needed, here.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Bundy......A True American Hero? on 04/16/2014 17:40:27 MDT Print View

Maybe this could be dropped....
Nothing productive is going to happen here, really.

Edited by Kat_P on 04/16/2014 17:42:56 MDT.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Bundy......A True American Hero? on 04/16/2014 17:45:47 MDT Print View

What business is it of yours?^^^^^^

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Re: Bundy......A True American Hero? on 04/16/2014 17:48:08 MDT Print View

as I see it Kat, you tend to pick fights with people on just about every subject in Chaff.

Me, I like to poke with a stick. However, I do visit other topics and give information for others on trips, etc. I don't come to BPL to visit Chaff to argue or to be holier than thou. Thoughts???

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Bundy......A True American Hero? on 04/16/2014 17:49:43 MDT Print View

"What business is it of yours?^^^^^^"

None, true, but you have no problem chiming in to comment that my posts are nonsense. That does not help either.
Just read your second post. I think I try to discuss things and while I am argumentative, I hear people out and see what they are saying.
But we could agree to just stay clear of one another in Chaff. That means you don't just poke in to mention grabbing popcorn to read my nonsense and I stay clear of you as well.

Edited by Kat_P on 04/16/2014 17:57:42 MDT.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Bundy......A True American Hero? on 04/16/2014 18:21:10 MDT Print View

naw....then it would not be fun!

Kidding. I don't dislike you.....mind you. I just feel there is a small contingent here on BPL that are holier than thou.

Some like to play forum police, some like to be the agitators, some like to...well ya get it. Me? I am getting ready to hike this summer....will be epic as there is less snow (which is a bad thing or a good thing or a mixture of the two). I have some classic cross country routes I am tackling and I am stoked. I don't take Chaff to seriously until someone name checks me and takes a swipe at me. Mind you, I am not some silly little boy that cowers to others. I don't like name calling directed at me. This is a small world (us BPL peeps) and people cross paths. Enough said. I have been here day one and have done a lot here to help others with info and also other things....GGG anyone? Look I am not attacking you, just putting my two cents in because, well you just became a police officer here. Care to let us read what you edited????