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Bundy......A True American Hero?
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Ian B.

Locale: PNW
Re: KISS my ..... on 04/14/2014 16:32:14 MDT Print View

Whoa pump the breaks there killer! Just because YOU like to tromp around the woods in a skirt, don't try to put that on me.

Not that there's anything wrong with it as I'll be backpacking in full drag here in a few weeks (true story) but makeup is where I draw the line... except for fall since Autumn colors make my eyes pop.

Ken Miller

Locale: Colorado
So predictable on 04/14/2014 17:41:43 MDT Print View

Wow, first you try to poke fun at being a patriot, then you struggle with an argument and use the race card, after that fails, you are critical of the size of someone's manhood.

What about discrimination against women, gays, greedy corporations, and the rest of the lot.

The left is so predictable, so limited in their thinking, and yes so hateful against any one who doesn't follow their herd.

Get some help man!

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: I stand with the Bundy Ranch. on 04/14/2014 20:08:38 MDT Print View

"On the other hand, God help the Feds and BLM if something does happen."

Until a whole bunch of guys still in uniform, who also have a lot of recent combat experience, show up. Active duty Rangers, SEALs, Green Berets, and just regular old Army and Marines. Like you said, Matthew, let's hope wiser heads prevail.

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: NoCo
Re: So predictable on 04/14/2014 20:41:25 MDT Print View

Come on Ken. You brought race into this, not Matthew

Hk Newman
(hknewman) - MLife

Locale: Western US
So not going to matter on 04/14/2014 20:45:10 MDT Print View

Not much to get riled up over. All these counties will get sucked dry by the growing Las Vegas metro water dept and just less water in general (whether you call it an extended drought or global warming). For cattle ranching, you need a well fed by ground water and the argument is that taking all this water will lower the water table dramatically. Vegas paper:

By arguing ranching is feasible, they are also arguing there's enough water to pipe to thirsty Vegas. NV is trying to grow Vegas to compete with Los Angeles and San Francisco for tech firms ... besides some lip service, think they will choose Vegas over a tenant rancher.

Edited by hknewman on 04/14/2014 21:54:30 MDT.

Charles Grier
(Rincon) - M

Locale: Desert Southwest
Bundy......A True American Hero? on 04/15/2014 06:34:54 MDT Print View

Without taxpayer subsidy, most cattle grazing operations in the more arid parts of the western US are money losers. Grazing fees are now $1.35 per AUM (animal unit month). This means that Bundy pays the BLM $1.35/month for every cow/calf unit he grazes on public land. The cost of grazing on private land of similar quality (eg. west Texas) is probably 2-3 times that. Yes, western cattle ranching is a way of life but it is one that is subsidized by all American taxpayers including those in major cattle states such as Florida and Mississippi. Is Bundy "A True American Hero"? No, he is a taxpayer-subsidized relic from the romantic past who is clinging to an unsustainable way of life.

Ben Crocker
(alexdrewreed) - M

Locale: Kentucky
Bundy......A True American Hero? on 04/15/2014 09:12:58 MDT Print View

Bundy's legal arguments don't sound very good to me. He makes arguments often heard by people who don't get their way. But I think Bundy should get his day in court to make these poor arguments. And it looks like he did. And it looks like the courts disagree with him.

A civilized society requires that we follow the law.

Civil disobedience is really only appropriate to me when a minority is being systematically oppressed. This is not a minority oppression but instead a land owner claiming he has more property rights than he has by law. And he's willing to use guns to get rights that none of the rest of us have. Peaceful civil disobedience is different than civil disobedience by gun. Civil disobedience by gun is nothing more than thuggery.

I often disagree with court decisions. I can't just use a gun to overrule those I don't like.

Ian B.

Locale: PNW
Re: Bundy......A True American Hero? on 04/15/2014 09:39:39 MDT Print View

Wow... a voice of reason.

+1 to everything Ben said. Bundy comes across, to me, as a spoiled rich brat with an overly developed sense of entitlement and self-worth. I would fully expect to have feds on my doorstep if I owed the government a small fraction of what he does.

This isn't a knee jerk reaction from BLM. This case is over 20 years old and as Ben mentioned, had been to court and was reviewed by a third party. Bundy had numerous opportunities within those 20 years to seek a peaceful resolution prior to BLM arriving with professional wranglers.

Besides, if you follow Bundy's logic, that land SHOULD belong to Native American people, not him.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 04/15/2014 09:40:34 MDT.

J Mag
Re: Re: Re: Bundy......A True American Hero? on 04/15/2014 11:20:28 MDT Print View

"Funny how the right becomes more intolerant with federal over reach when we have a President that is not white nor named Jim..."

Ken, I am very curious as to what schools and organizations you have grown up/ participated in to make you believe this resembles an actual "point" or "logic" in any way.

Seriously I am curious. I wouldn't consider myself left or right wing, but that is the longest race card reach on an issue that has nothing to do with race that I have ever seen. Even Al Sharpton wouldn't attempt that one.

Edited by GoProGator on 04/15/2014 12:07:23 MDT.

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: Re: Bundy......A True American Hero? on 04/15/2014 11:20:39 MDT Print View

Ben - truly a voice of reason.

Good job.

Dean L
(AldoLeopold) - F

Locale: Great Lakes
Human shields on 04/15/2014 11:34:04 MDT Print View

"We were actually strategizing to put all the women at the front, if they were going to start shooting, its going to be women that are going to be televised all across the world getting shot by these rouge federal officers".

-Sheriff Richard Mack

Mack was a key organizer in the Bundy Standoff. This, the above was reported by both The Blaze and Fox News among others.

David T
(DaveT) - F
welfare on 04/15/2014 13:55:34 MDT Print View

"No, he is a taxpayer-subsidized relic from the romantic past who is clinging to an unsustainable way of life."

It is funny that the same folks decry the entitlement society and welfare system also enagage in Western arid land cattle raising. If they paid a realistic AUM, sure maybe it would be okay. They way it stands, it's just welfare, pure and simple.

Big +1 to Charles and Ben. The facts of this situation are not disputed. I don't think we'd have a society very long if everyone who didn't get their way in court took up arms against the government. Use (though science would likely say abuse) the public land for your private benefit, pay your (meager) fees, and get on with your life. It's already been settled in the courts.

Unfortunately, this thread is already all about jackboots and "Oathkeepers" and is far beyond any actual discussion of the facts. With that in mind:

p.s. It would be awesome if "Indians"/First Nation/aboriginals took up bows and arrows against the "patriots" and "oathkeepers" and demanded their right to the land. "Hey you were here in 1850? Awesome. We were here like 16,000 years ago."

p.p.s. It would also be awesome if the Oathkeepers and assorted Patriots all rode out on horses to defend other categories of welfare cheats. You know, some person who lies on their welfare application, gets money, gets found out, is forced by the court to pay restitution, but they say NO WAY, and then the Oathkeepers roll in on horses to protect the poor welfare cheat.

Edited by DaveT on 04/15/2014 16:59:32 MDT.

Dean L
(AldoLeopold) - F

Locale: Great Lakes
Re: welfare on 04/15/2014 15:25:03 MDT Print View

Dang it.. it's okay to subsidize cattle from the public coffers but cut those handouts for humans! ;) Wait there is the soylent green option...hmmm.

Ian B.

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Bundy......A True American Hero? on 04/15/2014 15:59:00 MDT Print View

Thread drift...

I'd really like to have Bundy psychoanalyzed because whatever his malfunction is, it seems to be prevalent within our society. I mean think about it... a wealthy guy with no legal standing, trying to make a claim on land he doesn't own and to my knowledge hasn't paid a dime to his lease since 1993, is completely willing to stand back and watch the BLM and militia shoot it out for his financial benefit. The fact that this guy isn't an elected official boggles the mind.

Justin Baker
(justin_baker) - M

Locale: Santa Rosa, CA
Re: Re: So predictable on 04/15/2014 16:03:49 MDT Print View

Ken is just a douchebag troll. Ignore him. None of his posts attempt rational debate.

David T
(DaveT) - F
trolls. on 04/15/2014 16:11:28 MDT Print View

I think you are forgetting at least one more.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: trolls. on 04/15/2014 17:38:27 MDT Print View

"I think you are forgetting at least one more."


jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: So predictable on 04/15/2014 17:50:13 MDT Print View

"Ken is just a douchebag troll"

Miller or Helwig? : )

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: So predictable on 04/15/2014 18:02:01 MDT Print View

""Ken is just a douchebag troll"

Miller or Helwig? : )"

Both of these posts are really unnecessary, don't you think?

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: So predictable on 04/15/2014 18:05:01 MDT Print View

Okay, maybe I should keep my day job

Shouldn't have hit the "post message" button : )