Forum Index » Chaff » Bundy......A True American Hero?


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Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Bundy......A True American Hero? on 04/14/2014 11:51:02 MDT Print View

http://www.politicususa.com/2014/04/14/person-color-committing-clive-bundys-crimes-gop-demanding-action.htmlery



interesting situation in Nevada if you ask me :)

Edited by kennyhel77 on 04/14/2014 11:52:03 MDT.

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
not a bad topic on 04/14/2014 12:27:49 MDT Print View

I thought about posting this earlier. It is very complicated.

I wouldn't call him a hero, but I don't like all of the government's actions here either. I have mixed feelings here.

To me some of the discussion/argument we had on the national parks thread is related to the issues here as well. Not a complete match of course, but some of the federal versus state, stewardship of national lands, and economic/environmental special interests are in both topics.

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
Re: Bundy......A True American Hero? on 04/14/2014 12:32:09 MDT Print View

of course I replied based on the topic before reading your link.

There are much better, less crap filled, pieces written on the topic.

Here is a short description written by a guy I know from a different perspective. I think he has some good points/insight into the other side:

This is a very complicated issue. It is touching a raw nerve that exists in the Wesy over the federal ownership df lands in the west and the way the Feds are managing those lands - managing by abusing the environmental laws, particularly the endangered species act, and thereby destroying the economies of the west. The federal government is also ignoring and discarding the century + old compact it had with the ranchers in the west.

While it is technically correct that the federal government is the landowner, this guy is a mere leaseholder, and the government has the legal right to change the terms of the lease and evict him if he doesn't comply.

However, as usual, there is much more to the story than that. Most ranches in the west are comprised of relatively small amounts of land held in fee simple and the remaining majority of land leased from the federal and sometimes state governments. Those leased lands are tied to the fee simple. That is, the lands are not leased at an open auction, but the owner of the fee simple has an exclusive right to lease them, and that right to lease transfers with the fee simple land.

The lease land is a key component to the value of the ranch. When the ranch sells, it is valued not only on the value of the fee simple land, but also on the leased land that accompanies it. In fact, when the federal government condemns such ranches (such as it did at White Sands Missile Range), it has been forced by the federal courts to pay the ranchers for the value of not only their fee simple land, but also their leased land, since that total value truly reflects the value of the ranch being taken by the federal government.

Keep in mind also that the federal government made a compact with this guy's ancestors, and the ancestors of all of the western ranches. That compact was that if those ancestors were to go out and pioneer that god-forsaken land in the middle of nowhere, the federal government would not only grant you homestead rights on your fee simple land, but would also grant you the preferential grazing leases described above.

That system started changing in the 70s with the advent of the environmental movement and their hatred of ranching in the west. The BLM and the Forest Service (the two largest "owners" of federal grazing lands, which were originally created to help the ranchers, evolved to become their worst enemy. All across the west they started dramatically reducing the ranchers grazing allotments (i.e., the number of cow/calf units the ranchers were allowed to place on the federal lands). By drastic, I mean reductions of 90-99%. Many if not most ranchers in the west were wiped out. As an example, the county in Nevada where this is occuring had over 50 ranchers 20 years ago. This guy is the only rancher left.

Further, as someone pointed out above, much of this policy has been created through incestuous litigation. That is, environmental groups, staffed by former BLM and Forest Service employees, file suit agains those agencies. Prior to any court hearing, the agency "settles" with the environmental group and further agrees to pay the environmental groups legal fees. (By the way, no one knows how much the federal government is paying in legal fees to these environmental groups, but the best estimates is billions of dollars a year. For many of the groups, it is their only source of revenue.) Due to this sue and settle approach, the federal agencies are able to implement policies that are not permitted by statute. Furthermore, the policies are not subject to the normal regulatory process of issuing proposed regulations, having public comments, etc. Thus, the federal agencies have been able to implement massive social changes in the western US without any meaningful debate or any real due process.

Consequentially, most non-tourist locations in the west are sinkholes of poverty. No jobs exist and young people are being forced to move elsewhere to find employment. Virtually the entire cattle, timber and mining industries in the west have been shut down by this extra-legal process.

Most people in the Rocky Mountain west, outside the liberal tourist meccas, are deeply outraged at this situation. This standoff in Nevada has touched a raw nerve.

The BLM is very heavy handed in this issue. Even if this guy is violating a lease, does that justify sending in 200 armed agents and snipers, and unilaterally restricting everyones' 1st Amendment rights?

In summary, this isn't simply a question of landlord and tenant rights. Rather, it is a question of public policy, government oversight, government ownership of the vast majority of western lands, and who should best control and oversee those lands.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Bundy......A True American Hero? on 04/14/2014 12:50:19 MDT Print View

Thanks for sharing that Michael. In a sea of propaganda from both sides, this is the most rational and credible explanation I've heard yet.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 04/14/2014 12:52:09 MDT.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Bundy......A True American Hero? on 04/14/2014 12:51:49 MDT Print View

A bunch of armed "patriots" coming to defend this jerk is reason for concern. All these arm chair wanna be soldiers makes for an explosive situation. Bundy owes money to the Federal government and has not paid up. His reasoning that he is Mormon and that he has rights to the land is hilarious. Umm so with that logic then, our native friends here should start an insurrection then. Funny how the right becomes more intolerant with federal over reach when we have a President that is not white nor named Jim......

Edited by kennyhel77 on 04/14/2014 12:54:41 MDT.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Re: Bundy......A True American Hero? on 04/14/2014 12:53:13 MDT Print View

BTW the initial title was sarcasm

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
ows on 04/14/2014 13:01:32 MDT Print View

Ken,



From my understanding (I wasn't there), the BLM showed up with guns and snipers first. The protestors countered. Now I'm not saying the protestors should have been pointing guns at the feds, but I don't think the BLM should have been showing up to what amounts to a rally with sniper riffles.

The race of the president has nothing to do with it. If this was a bunch of hippies wanting to occupy wall street, you would probably be on board. I think the situations have many similarities.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: ows on 04/14/2014 13:13:03 MDT Print View

Nawww Michael ....I despise hippies. Agree that The response was overkill, but to have armed militia types showing up and trying to be John Wayne is disconcerting. That is opening a can of worms.

Edited by kennyhel77 on 04/14/2014 13:13:43 MDT.

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
armed on 04/14/2014 13:41:29 MDT Print View

Agreed. I don't think the situation called for armed protests and that was troubling. Certainly not something I would advocate.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Bundy......A True American Hero? on 04/14/2014 14:06:47 MDT Print View

Interesting story Micheal, I suspected there was another side to the story : )

They seem to have backed off now, hopefully they'll reach some peaceful compromise.

I have heard interviews of the guy talking about how he doesn't recognize the U.S. government which sounds kind of wacko, but I didn't listen that carefully.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
I stand with the Bundy Ranch. on 04/14/2014 14:34:37 MDT Print View

"A bunch of armed "patriots" coming to defend this jerk is reason for concern. All these arm chair wanna be soldiers makes for an explosive situation."

(sigh)...Ken, do you realize that those "arm chair wanna be soldiers" are actually the most experienced retired and active duty combat troops America has produced since WW2? They are Oathkeepers...retired Army Rangers, Green Berets, USMC Scout Snipers, Navy Seals, etc. Most of the younger ones have cut their teeth in places like Iraq and Afghanistan, the older vets will probably have survived combat in Desert Storm and Vietnam (possibly Korea). There are also many active duty personnel from all branches there on their days off and leaves (trust me, I know 3 personally that are there right now). They all are there to uphold their oaths, as there is no expiration date on the blank check they wrote the citizens of the USA. When compared to the local police/SWAT/BLM/forest rangers teams on the ground, with probably very few having the type of training and experience the vets have, I honestly think it would be a very short fight. I also think it would spark the largest insurgency the world has ever seen and I sure hope a solution presents itself before something like that happens. Say what you like, but I would put my money on the Vets.

Oathkeepers at the Bundy ranch:

http://oathkeepers.org/oath/2014/04/13/cowboys-and-govthugs-the-cows-come-home/

Notice the flags:

b

I know I, personally, would feel much safer with a group of 10 Oathkeepers protecting me than 50 BLM jackboots. If something does start, I can also guarantee it won't be started from the Oathkeepers. These are veterans who know what kind of hell war really is and will do everything to avoid it. On the other hand, God help the Feds and BLM if something does happen.

o


OK...back to your regularly scheduled Liberal conservative bashing and race baiting.

Edited by bigfoot2 on 04/14/2014 15:00:25 MDT.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Truth. on 04/14/2014 14:36:24 MDT Print View

Oh...and the real reason the BLM wants the land has nothing to do with turtles...it's because they want to sell the fracking rights.

http://www.naturalnews.com/044670_BLM_lies_fracking_leases_Bundy_ranch.html

"(NaturalNews) The Bureau of Land Management says its 200-man armed siege of the Cliven Bundy ranch in Nevada is all about protecting an "endangered tortoise." But a Natural News investigation has found that BLM is actually in the business of raking in millions of dollars by leasing Nevada lands to energy companies that engage in fracking operations.

This document from the Nevada Bureau of Mines and Geology(1) shows significant exploratory drilling being conducted in precisely the same area where the Bundy family has been running cattle since the 1870's. The "Gold Butte" area is indicated on the lower right corner of the document (see below), and it clearly shows numerous exploratory drilling operations have been conducted there.

What's also clear is that oil has been found in nearby areas and possibly even within the Gold Butte area itself.

It is, of course, customary for the U.S. government to bring armed soldiers to an oil dispute. (Operation "Iraqi Freedom" for starters...) Heavily armed snipers, helicopters and militarized soldiers have never been invoked over tortoises. (Anyone who thinks this siege is about reptiles is kidding themselves.)

BLM collects $1.27 million in shale fracking leases
The Bureau of Land Management has just cashed in with $1.27 million in oil and gas leases in Nevada. This was just reported two weeks ago in ShaleReporter.com, which states:

U.S. Bureau of Land Management geologist Lorenzo Trimble tells the Las Vegas Review-Journal the Elko County oil and gas leases sold Tuesday for $1.27 million to six different companies. The auction took place in Reno. The leases are near where Houston-based Noble Energy Inc. wants to drill for oil and natural gas on 40,000 acres of public and private land near the town of Wells. The Review-Journal reports the project would be the first in Nevada to use hydraulic fracturing, or fracking, to extract oil and gas from shale deposits.

The way this works, of course, is that BLM runs land theft operations by claiming they are "managing" the land and thereby kicking everyone else off it. They then invoke a reptile, an owl, a bird, a snake or some other animal which they claim to be "saving," even while they are stealing and destroying hundreds of cattle belonging to a private rancher trying to make an honest living in a nation where productive Americans are increasingly branded "enemies of the state."

Once control of the land is established via court order or by bringing armed men with automatic weapons, BLM then turns around and leases the land to fracking companies who proceed to exploit the land using hydraulic fracturing techniques that inject toxic chemicals into groundwater supplies (and have been linked to earthquakes). The money collected by the BLM is then used to increase BLM salaries and bonuses.

In essence, the BLM is a criminal mafia racket, and Cliven Bundy just happened to be in the way of their next target, the Gold Butte area of Nevada. That is why they brought hundreds of heavily armed men to a "save the tortoise" operation.

"Endangered tortoises" is merely the government cover story for confiscating land to turn it over to fracking companies for millions of dollars in energy leases. In truth, the BLM was rapidly euthanizing these very same reptiles en masse last year.(2)

As part of its police state intimidation to control the land, BLM unleashed attack dogs on a pregnant woman.

Does anyone really believe this is still about a tortoise?"

Edited by bigfoot2 on 04/14/2014 15:15:55 MDT.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: I stand with the Bundy Ranch. on 04/14/2014 14:39:44 MDT Print View

They're frighten delusional neutrons. The same ones that open carry and have a small penis. These are the same "patriots" that think Obama is tyrannical and that their supposed constitutional rights are being trampled.

Race bait.....you said it not me. Must really bug you that we have a damn Muslim President of different color than Lilly white

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
The Empire Strikes Back on 04/14/2014 14:40:10 MDT Print View

"They seem to have backed off now, hopefully they'll reach some peaceful compromise."

You spoke too soon, Jerry....they're back and in force:

http://gopthedailydose.com/2014/04/14/breaking-more-feds-cops-vehicles-equipment-arriving-at-bundy-ranch/

Edited by bigfoot2 on 04/14/2014 14:40:44 MDT.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
I stand with the Bundy Ranch. on 04/14/2014 14:49:47 MDT Print View

"Race bait.....you said it not me. Must really bug you that we have a damn Muslim President of different color than Lilly white"

Not at all. Skin color has nothing to do with the fact that he's incompetant and I dissagree with his policies. It's well known that Liberals like yourself are the most intolerant of others opposing viewpoints and tend to attack them by deflecting the issues and calling them "racist", just for policy dissagreements. It's your MO, i'm affraid. Go back and re-read your second post. You brought it up, pal. LOL. Are you really that dense that you don't realize that you just proved my point?

Edited by bigfoot2 on 04/14/2014 14:57:50 MDT.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: I stand with the Bundy Ranch. on 04/14/2014 14:52:05 MDT Print View

Lol

. Kirby
(Kirby805) - F
Re: Re: Bundy......A True American Hero? on 04/14/2014 15:03:23 MDT Print View

"While it is technically correct that the federal government is the landowner, this guy is a mere leaseholder, and the government has the legal right to change the terms of the lease and evict him if he doesn't comply."

Technically correct. Otherwise known as the best kind of correct.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Bundy......A True American Hero on 04/14/2014 15:12:50 MDT Print View

"Lol"

That's ok, Ken, laughter is often the best defense mechanism for the insecure.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: I stand with the Bundy Ranch. on 04/14/2014 15:15:43 MDT Print View

All right Matthew... all right.

"(sigh)...Ken, do you realize that those "arm chair wanna be soldiers" are actually the most experienced retired and active duty combat troops America has produced since WW2?"

I can't keep quiet on this topic anymore as this is an area where I'm a subject matter expert. Spring ignites our love of brights. As much as we love this season's soft and wearable Radiant Orchid, we will always love a swipe of bold, confident color. From hair dye to lipstick, these colors pop! Orange lipstick is going to be huge for spring. We’ve already spotted stars like Jessica Alba wearing a bold pout. Yina, the guru behind Yina Goes takes the trend to the next level with a neon hue. This season, when it comes to lipstick, go bright or go home. Jewel tones aren’t just for Winter. Tiffany D of Makeup by Tiffany transitions rich hues into spring with her blue eyeshadow tutorial. If you need a break from neutrals, this eye look gets our vote. Colorful eyeliner was everywhere at NYFW. If you’re looking for a gradient approach to the trend, then try Cflowermakeup’s sunset eye makeup in lieu of liner. This eye look combines a gold-toned yellow and orange shadow, keeping the look wearable. Spring hair is about subtle differences—not in color, but in placement. Kristin Ess of The Beauty Department showcases this new style by dying the underside of the hair.

All of which proves that anyone who disagrees with me is a cotton headed ninny muggins.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
KISS my ..... on 04/14/2014 15:58:39 MDT Print View

Nice try, Ian, but i'm a card carrying member of the KISS Army, so if you want to wear make-up and women's lipstick, i'm actually really cool with it. Next.....

M

k

Edited by bigfoot2 on 04/14/2014 15:59:23 MDT.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: KISS my ..... on 04/14/2014 16:32:14 MDT Print View

Whoa pump the breaks there killer! Just because YOU like to tromp around the woods in a skirt, don't try to put that on me.

Not that there's anything wrong with it as I'll be backpacking in full drag here in a few weeks (true story) but makeup is where I draw the line... except for fall since Autumn colors make my eyes pop.

Ken Miller
(Powderpiggy) - F

Locale: Colorado
So predictable on 04/14/2014 17:41:43 MDT Print View

Wow, first you try to poke fun at being a patriot, then you struggle with an argument and use the race card, after that fails, you are critical of the size of someone's manhood.

What about discrimination against women, gays, greedy corporations, and the rest of the lot.

The left is so predictable, so limited in their thinking, and yes so hateful against any one who doesn't follow their herd.

Get some help man!

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: I stand with the Bundy Ranch. on 04/14/2014 20:08:38 MDT Print View

"On the other hand, God help the Feds and BLM if something does happen."

Until a whole bunch of guys still in uniform, who also have a lot of recent combat experience, show up. Active duty Rangers, SEALs, Green Berets, and just regular old Army and Marines. Like you said, Matthew, let's hope wiser heads prevail.

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
Re: So predictable on 04/14/2014 20:41:25 MDT Print View

Come on Ken. You brought race into this, not Matthew

HK Newman
(hknewman) - MLife

Locale: Western US
So not going to matter on 04/14/2014 20:45:10 MDT Print View

Not much to get riled up over. All these counties will get sucked dry by the growing Las Vegas metro water dept and just less water in general (whether you call it an extended drought or global warming). For cattle ranching, you need a well fed by ground water and the argument is that taking all this water will lower the water table dramatically. Vegas paper:

http://www.reviewjournal.com/news/water-environment/water-authority-seeks-more-groundwater-two-rural-counties

By arguing ranching is feasible, they are also arguing there's enough water to pipe to thirsty Vegas. NV is trying to grow Vegas to compete with Los Angeles and San Francisco for tech firms ... besides some lip service, think they will choose Vegas over a tenant rancher.

Edited by hknewman on 04/14/2014 21:54:30 MDT.

Charles G.
(Rincon) - M

Locale: Desert Southwest
Bundy......A True American Hero? on 04/15/2014 06:34:54 MDT Print View

Without taxpayer subsidy, most cattle grazing operations in the more arid parts of the western US are money losers. Grazing fees are now $1.35 per AUM (animal unit month). This means that Bundy pays the BLM $1.35/month for every cow/calf unit he grazes on public land. The cost of grazing on private land of similar quality (eg. west Texas) is probably 2-3 times that. Yes, western cattle ranching is a way of life but it is one that is subsidized by all American taxpayers including those in major cattle states such as Florida and Mississippi. Is Bundy "A True American Hero"? No, he is a taxpayer-subsidized relic from the romantic past who is clinging to an unsustainable way of life.

Ben Crocker
(alexdrewreed) - M

Locale: Kentucky
Bundy......A True American Hero? on 04/15/2014 09:12:58 MDT Print View

Bundy's legal arguments don't sound very good to me. He makes arguments often heard by people who don't get their way. But I think Bundy should get his day in court to make these poor arguments. And it looks like he did. And it looks like the courts disagree with him.

A civilized society requires that we follow the law.

Civil disobedience is really only appropriate to me when a minority is being systematically oppressed. This is not a minority oppression but instead a land owner claiming he has more property rights than he has by law. And he's willing to use guns to get rights that none of the rest of us have. Peaceful civil disobedience is different than civil disobedience by gun. Civil disobedience by gun is nothing more than thuggery.

I often disagree with court decisions. I can't just use a gun to overrule those I don't like.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Bundy......A True American Hero? on 04/15/2014 09:39:39 MDT Print View

Wow... a voice of reason.

+1 to everything Ben said. Bundy comes across, to me, as a spoiled rich brat with an overly developed sense of entitlement and self-worth. I would fully expect to have feds on my doorstep if I owed the government a small fraction of what he does.

This isn't a knee jerk reaction from BLM. This case is over 20 years old and as Ben mentioned, had been to court and was reviewed by a third party. Bundy had numerous opportunities within those 20 years to seek a peaceful resolution prior to BLM arriving with professional wranglers.

Besides, if you follow Bundy's logic, that land SHOULD belong to Native American people, not him.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 04/15/2014 09:40:34 MDT.

J Mag
(GoProGator) - F
Re: Re: Re: Bundy......A True American Hero? on 04/15/2014 11:20:28 MDT Print View

"Funny how the right becomes more intolerant with federal over reach when we have a President that is not white nor named Jim..."

Ken, I am very curious as to what schools and organizations you have grown up/ participated in to make you believe this resembles an actual "point" or "logic" in any way.

Seriously I am curious. I wouldn't consider myself left or right wing, but that is the longest race card reach on an issue that has nothing to do with race that I have ever seen. Even Al Sharpton wouldn't attempt that one.

Edited by GoProGator on 04/15/2014 12:07:23 MDT.

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: Re: Bundy......A True American Hero? on 04/15/2014 11:20:39 MDT Print View

Ben - truly a voice of reason.

Good job.

Dean L
(AldoLeopold) - F

Locale: Great Lakes
Human shields on 04/15/2014 11:34:04 MDT Print View

"We were actually strategizing to put all the women at the front, if they were going to start shooting, its going to be women that are going to be televised all across the world getting shot by these rouge federal officers".

-Sheriff Richard Mack

Mack was a key organizer in the Bundy Standoff. This, the above was reported by both The Blaze and Fox News among others.

Dave T
(DaveT) - F
welfare on 04/15/2014 13:55:34 MDT Print View

"No, he is a taxpayer-subsidized relic from the romantic past who is clinging to an unsustainable way of life."


It is funny that the same folks decry the entitlement society and welfare system also enagage in Western arid land cattle raising. If they paid a realistic AUM, sure maybe it would be okay. They way it stands, it's just welfare, pure and simple.

Big +1 to Charles and Ben. The facts of this situation are not disputed. I don't think we'd have a society very long if everyone who didn't get their way in court took up arms against the government. Use (though science would likely say abuse) the public land for your private benefit, pay your (meager) fees, and get on with your life. It's already been settled in the courts.

Unfortunately, this thread is already all about jackboots and "Oathkeepers" and is far beyond any actual discussion of the facts. With that in mind:

p.s. It would be awesome if "Indians"/First Nation/aboriginals took up bows and arrows against the "patriots" and "oathkeepers" and demanded their right to the land. "Hey you were here in 1850? Awesome. We were here like 16,000 years ago."

p.p.s. It would also be awesome if the Oathkeepers and assorted Patriots all rode out on horses to defend other categories of welfare cheats. You know, some person who lies on their welfare application, gets money, gets found out, is forced by the court to pay restitution, but they say NO WAY, and then the Oathkeepers roll in on horses to protect the poor welfare cheat.

Edited by DaveT on 04/15/2014 16:59:32 MDT.

Dean L
(AldoLeopold) - F

Locale: Great Lakes
Re: welfare on 04/15/2014 15:25:03 MDT Print View

Dang it.. it's okay to subsidize cattle from the public coffers but cut those handouts for humans! ;) Wait there is the soylent green option...hmmm.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Bundy......A True American Hero? on 04/15/2014 15:59:00 MDT Print View

Thread drift...

I'd really like to have Bundy psychoanalyzed because whatever his malfunction is, it seems to be prevalent within our society. I mean think about it... a wealthy guy with no legal standing, trying to make a claim on land he doesn't own and to my knowledge hasn't paid a dime to his lease since 1993, is completely willing to stand back and watch the BLM and militia shoot it out for his financial benefit. The fact that this guy isn't an elected official boggles the mind.

Justin Baker
(justin_baker) - F

Locale: Santa Rosa, CA
Re: Re: So predictable on 04/15/2014 16:03:49 MDT Print View

Ken is just a douchebag troll. Ignore him. None of his posts attempt rational debate.

Dave T
(DaveT) - F
trolls. on 04/15/2014 16:11:28 MDT Print View

I think you are forgetting at least one more.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: trolls. on 04/15/2014 17:38:27 MDT Print View

"I think you are forgetting at least one more."

:o)

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: So predictable on 04/15/2014 17:50:13 MDT Print View

"Ken is just a douchebag troll"

Miller or Helwig? : )

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Re: Re: So predictable on 04/15/2014 18:02:01 MDT Print View

""Ken is just a douchebag troll"

Miller or Helwig? : )"

Both of these posts are really unnecessary, don't you think?

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: So predictable on 04/15/2014 18:05:01 MDT Print View

Okay, maybe I should keep my day job

Shouldn't have hit the "post message" button : )

. Kirby
(Kirby805) - F
Piling on Ken on 04/15/2014 18:26:12 MDT Print View

As much as I believe that racism plays some role in the antipathy towards the current president, I don't think it's particularly germane to this incident since these far right wing nuts have been around since the 50s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_movement

David Adair
(DavidAdair) - M

Locale: West Dakota
Re: Piling on Ken on 04/15/2014 19:07:30 MDT Print View

I haven't spent much time reading up on this situation as there have been squabbles between land agencies and ranchers for decades. However, I did peruse the comments on some of the usual liberal websites. The number of comments (from so called liberals) which advocate calling in the military and killing them all is a bit troubling.

So it seems there is no shortage of far left wing wackos either. Really who are these people? Not democrats. Or is the new democratic party just a bunch of socialist flakes?

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Piling on Ken on 04/15/2014 20:09:41 MDT Print View

"So it seems there is no shortage of far left wing wackos either. Really who are these people? Not democrats. Or is the new democratic party just a bunch of socialist flakes?"

Nah, the new Democratic Party is just Republican Lite. The ones you're talking about are just garden variety left wing nut jobs. No shortage on either wing these days, as far as I can tell.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Bundy......A True American Hero? on 04/15/2014 20:16:09 MDT Print View

""Ken is just a douchebag troll"

This is just rude and deserves an apology. We can be adults and discuss it civilly without comments like this. Honestly, it's something Ken himself would post. The conservative point of view should not resort to name calling. We can win the arguments based on the quality of our points and the fact that we are the opposite of a belief in the indiscriminateness of thought. Logic will always prevail over their positions of "facts" based on opinions.

M

Edited by bigfoot2 on 04/16/2014 10:19:05 MDT.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Back on topic. on 04/15/2014 20:30:41 MDT Print View

Does anyone have any news about the cows? I have been hearing that some of the Bundy Grandchildren have found a mass grave that the cattle shot and killed by the BLM have been dumped into and that they are still trying to save the new born calves left to starve by the BLM.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Bundy Ranch - What You're Not Being Told on 04/15/2014 21:41:36 MDT Print View

Very interesting article that brings up some valid points from SCGNEWS.com.

Link to article and video:

http://scgnews.com/bundy-ranch-what-youre-not-being-told



Text:

"There are some very powerful people who have done their best to cover up what really happened at the Bundy ranch in Clark County Nevada. Fortunately they failed.

In this we're going to present you with evidence of blatant corruption and criminal activities that anyone, including law enforcement, can easily verify.

But before we go into the details, it's important to acknowledge here, that the political left and the political right are watching this crisis through very different eyes. You on the left saw this old rancher defying the Federal government over cattle grazing fees, with right wing pundits pleading his case, and armed militia moving in to intervene... it probably gave you the impression of Tea Party temper tantrum... with guns. Given some of the personalities who were involved in the media circus surrounding this, that impression is perfectly understandable, but underneath the appearances there is something here that all Americans need to see, whether they consider themselves conservative, liberal or none of the above.

All I ask is that you suspend your preconceived notions of what this crisis was about, for five minutes.

First let's eliminate some of the disinformation, speculation and conspiracy theories.

Here's a story that a lot of people were spreading around without fact checking. It got 47,000 shares on Facebook alone. The author claims that the siege of the Bundy ranch was about was really about fracking leases. That's a provocative narrative, one that I actually found very interesting. But just because something is plausible doesn't mean it's true. For evidence, the article links out to this page on the shalereporter.com, which does indeed talk about Bureau of Land Management (aka BLM) leasing out land in Nevada for Fracking. Trouble is, the author and 47,000 other people overlooked the blatantly obvious fact that the land in question is in north eastern Nevada. Clark county isn't in North Eastern Nevada. That's not a minor detail. Please, pretty please with a cherry on top, fact check before you spread information people. Always fact check.

Then there was this other line that kept getting spread around (and this is a direct quote):
"There are developers working for military contractors that want that land and water for mining weapons grade minerals for industry... they want to sell the land by the highway for real estate development because it's close to I-15". This claim wasn't backed up by even so much as a link. It was pure hearsay. Furthermore it doesn't even make sense. Military contractors (like Blackwater) want land for mining? And weapons grade minerals? To be perfectly honest I get the impression that this story was fabricated by some stoned college kid who thought it would be hilarious to send it to an alternative media outlet as a prank. You got to admit as prank that's pretty epic, especially since it worked. A media figure with a fairly decent sized audience, and I'm not going to name names, blasted it out to the public as is without asking for evidence or even critically examining the claim. A lot of people took that report and started spreading it around, and pretty soon there were people just repeating the narrative not even knowing where it came from. That's bad. Providing an echo chamber unfounded rumors and wild speculation is not journalism. The alternative media really needs to tighten their standards of evidence.

Alright, moving along, here we have this story that the showdown in Nevada was really about an underhanded business deal involving Senator Harry Reid, his son, the BLM and a 5 billion dollar solar energy plant. You probably saw a few people sharing links making these claims. Let's fact check.

Claim number one: Senator Harry Reid's son, Rory Reid (try saying that name ten times as fast as you can), is the primary representative for ENN energy group, a Chinese energy company involved in a $5 billion solar project planned for Clark County Nevada, on the on land where the Bundy ranch is located. First source: Reuters: Aug 31, 2012. Well this is interesting. It turns out that the conflicts of interest in this project were well documented, but Harry pushed it through anyway. He pushed it through in spite of the controversy that was stirred up when the land was sold to ENN for $4.5 million dollars even though separate appraisals valued the land at between $29.6 million and $38.6 million.

Claim number two: Reid put one of his former employees in charge of the Bureau of land management and thereby used his leverage in the agency to clear the Bundy's off the land. What do they claim as their source: CBS Las Vegas. Hmmm... That's interesting. Neil Kornze, the current BLM Chief is a former adviser for Harry Reid, and Harry Reid is the Senate Majority leader, and therefore was directly involved in his confirmation. That's another serious conflict of interest there considering that the BLM is claiming jurisdiction over the land where Rory Reid's company wants to build.

But do we have any evidence that Reid actually exercised that influence in the agency to get what he wanted? Well that brings us to claim number three: Supposedly the BLM had posted on their website that they needed to get the Bundy family off of the land to make room for the energy project, but the BLM has since removed the page. The website that made this claim posted a screen shot split into two files and a link to a text version of the page that someone had copied. This is pretty weak. Though it does seem to match the overall narrative here, this would never be admissible in court. But let's dig a little deeper shall we. What if there is a version of the site cached somewhere on the web? Let's try the way back machine on archive.org. Nope, no dice, the page was never cached on way back machine. Let's try google's cache... BINGO! Here it is folks. This is google's record of what used to be on the site.

To download the full screenshot, right click on the image below and select "Save Image As".
Bundy Ranch - Page That they took down from the BLM website - Solar Project

"Non-Governmental Organizations have expressed concern that the regional mitigation strategy for the Dry Lake Solar Energy Zone utilizes Gold Butte as the location for offsite mitigation for impacts from solar development, and that those restoration activities are not durable with the presence of trespass cattle"

They specifically referred to the solar project as a justification to seize Cliven Bundy's cattle.

Funny thing, we found the mitigation strategy for the Dry Lake Solar Energy zone, and guess who wrote it? That would be the BLM. Pretty convenient, for Harry Reid isn't it?

Now I took a screen shot of the Google cache right away. As I'm compiling this information I go back and I look at it again an hour later and what do you know, somebody came and took the cached version down. Somebody is trying to cover this thing up and fast. But you know what, they missed one. I found this cached version of the page on archive.is. If you follow the link in the description to our website SCG News.com you'll find a direct link to this page. I highly recommend that each and every one of you go and verify its contents for yourself before someone has it taken down.

Click here to view the cached version of the page that the BLM was desperately trying to hide.

Or click here to get to that link from another path.

But even if they take this last link down they left trail. Google's server logs will still have a record of the exact date their cached snap shot was taken, chances are they still have that snap shot, and you know what? Even if someone tried to erase it completely, with modern technology It is very easy for forensic technicians to recover data like this even if it seems to be deleted from the system. The digital trace is still there. The BLM's servers and every computer involved also have a trail, and trying to remove that trail would leave an even bigger trail.

All we need is somebody in law enforcement with a spine, but that's another story isn't it.

This isn't about turtles folks. It's not even about cattle. This is about money and power.

Turns out our little friend Harry Reid has a nice little empire rigged for himself in Nevada. Let's take a look at this article from the LA Times. This is from 2003. Apparently it's no secret that Harry's way of profiting off his position is by using his influence to push through deals that help his family members. He's got family representing virtually every major industry and they are doing quite well thank you very much. Thing is, this is technically not illegal. In fact it has become the standard way to bribe politicians in the United States. You can't line their pockets directly, but you can line their son's pockets, and their cousin's pockets and their uncle's pockets all you want.

However using a federal agency to seize cattle, and physically intimidate and brutalize a family to facilitate that dirty deal. That's all kinds of illegal. Then they to attempt to cover up the evidence... and that's also a crime.

Again, all we need is a law enforcement officer with a spine.

I'll be perfectly honest. When I saw some of the media personalities that were capitalizing on this this drama, I was very skeptical, but once I saw what was really going on I understood right away why people's blood is boiling.

Take another look at what happened on that ranch, the military style crack down, the violence. Imagine Clive Bundy was your father or grandfather. Imagine if his wife was your mother or grandmother. Imagine it was your family who's livelihood was being destroyed by some filthy rich politician who just can't get enough.

What happened in Clark County Nevada struck a nerve with the American people, but the response we saw had very little to do with this particular crisis. There is something much deeper brewing under the surface in the United States. This showdown was just a catalyst.

It wasn't the greatest atrocity of the decade or even of the year. I wish people had felt this moved by the NSA's domestic spying program, or the secret kill list, or the drone program, or the Libyan war, or the Iraq war or the Afghan war. I wish people had been activated by something bigger than the plight of a cattle rancher. But you know what? We don't get to pick the breaking point.

Rosa Parks sparked a civil rights movement with her refusal to sit in the back of the bus. Clive Bundy almost started the 2nd American revolution by refusing to let the feds run him over.

What we saw in Nevada clearly demonstrated just how easily that breaking point can be reached.

Now even knowing the real story, hearing about militia mobilizing all over the country to come physically defend the Bundy family is probably still very disconcerting for many progressives, this was a very dangerous situation. A lot of people could have ended up dead. But consider this: remember back in 2011 when riot police swooped in to brutally crush the occupy movement? Remember how you felt? No one stood up for them. No one fought back. And what was the result? The thugs won.The media quickly switched to a new distraction, and the public forgot.

Imagine if it had been different. Imagine if people swarmed in from all over the country; not to wave signs in the air, but to stand up for your rights; even if they disagreed with you politically. That didn't happen, but it should have.

It's been said that the enemy of your enemy is your friend. Trouble is, the people of the United States have been a bit confused about who the enemy really is. You've been allowing a thuggish, out of control, corporate owned government to persecute your ideological rivals, not realizing that the same boot will someday be grinding your face into the dirt. And all the while your common enemy, your real enemy gets stronger, and more aggressive, more lawless, and more blatantly corrupt as we dance the left right left right two step to tyranny. They've been playing you like a fiddle.

But the sleeping giant is starting to wake up.

And they are scared to death of you.

Now as for Harry Reid. He may just be one rotten apple in a barrel full of rotten apples, but he needs to be brought to justice.

To all of you out there who call yourself law enforcement, the American people are putting down a line the sand. If you don't stand up for justice, if you do not hold these scum bags accountable for their crimes, if you do not at least raise your voice and take a public stand then you are an accomplice. You are discrediting the entire framework of law and order, and you are giving the people a clear mandate to remove you from your office."

Edited by bigfoot2 on 04/16/2014 10:14:31 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Bundy Ranch - What You're Not Being Told on 04/15/2014 21:59:43 MDT Print View

scgnews looks like a real objective source of information ; )

most websites have an "about us" link that talks about who the people are that run the site, their history and so forth

Like Micheal's cepr.net has the names of the board of directors, names of people I can look up on wikipedia,...

google search gave me a "who is scg" link, but it's just more rambling, doesn't name anyone

Dean L
(AldoLeopold) - F

Locale: Great Lakes
Re: Re: Bundy Ranch - What You're Not Being Told on 04/15/2014 22:12:52 MDT Print View

"SCGnews looks like a real objective source of information ;)"

Yea but it sure aint no Divine Caroline!

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Bundy Ranch - What You're Not Being Told on 04/15/2014 22:43:16 MDT Print View

http://www.politico.com/story/2014/04/cliven-bundy-nevada-ranch-tea-party-105723.html

"Sean Hannity and Glenn Beck have interviewed him on their shows. Fox News’s “The Five” debated his actions. The Drudge Report is giving prominent play to all the latest Bundy coverage."

"So far, all signs suggest that national Republicans and tea party officials aren’t about to jump on the Bundy bandwagon."

"...they also have to talk about a guy who didn’t pay his grazing fees for more than 20 years, in a state where the federal government owns 86 percent of the land, and where other ranchers just go ahead and pay the fees.

At that point, it’s not such a powerful rallying cry anymore."

. Kirby
(Kirby805) - F
Re: Bundy Ranch - What You're Not Being Told on 04/16/2014 09:57:46 MDT Print View

"You are discrediting the entire framework of law and order..."

The irony. It burns.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
SCGnews on 04/16/2014 10:18:25 MDT Print View

"SCGnews looks like a real objective source of information ;)"

Never said it was objective. I said that it was "...very interesting article that brings up some valid points from SCGNEWS.com"

Do I agree with all of it, no. Do I think it brings up some troubling points, yes. At least it was well researched and all the info was linked and able to be found, unlike some on this thread that is just facts based on opinions. I think the point of the article was lost on most here.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: SCGnews on 04/16/2014 10:40:56 MDT Print View

http://www.forwardprogressives.com/time-honest-tea-party-become-terrorist-group/



Bout sums it up really. ..

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: SCGnews on 04/16/2014 17:23:23 MDT Print View

and Justin, if you are calling ME a douche and a troll I feel that is out of line. For one YOU don't know me big boy and secondly, name calling of that order is not really cool here. Please refrain from name calling like that, as I would hate to see you banned
from here :) 'kay?

If YOU have a personal beef with ME, then pm me. Dude I don't even know you

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re on 04/16/2014 17:29:20 MDT Print View

Implying that someone here is racist is not very nice either; something to keep in mind.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Bundy......A True American Hero? on 04/16/2014 17:37:46 MDT Print View

"and Justin, if you are calling ME a douche and a troll I feel that is out of line. For one YOU don't know me big boy and secondly, name calling of that order is not really cool here. Please refrain from name calling like that, as I would hate to see you banned
from here :) 'kay?

If YOU have a personal beef with ME, then pm me. Dude I don't even know you"

"http://www.forwardprogressives.com/time-honest-tea-party-become-terrorist-group/



Bout sums it up really. ."

You know, I take it back. No apology needed, here.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Bundy......A True American Hero? on 04/16/2014 17:40:27 MDT Print View

Maybe this could be dropped....
Nothing productive is going to happen here, really.

Edited by Kat_P on 04/16/2014 17:42:56 MDT.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Bundy......A True American Hero? on 04/16/2014 17:45:47 MDT Print View

What business is it of yours?^^^^^^

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Re: Bundy......A True American Hero? on 04/16/2014 17:48:08 MDT Print View

as I see it Kat, you tend to pick fights with people on just about every subject in Chaff.

Me, I like to poke with a stick. However, I do visit other topics and give information for others on trips, etc. I don't come to BPL to visit Chaff to argue or to be holier than thou. Thoughts???

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Bundy......A True American Hero? on 04/16/2014 17:49:43 MDT Print View

"What business is it of yours?^^^^^^"

None, true, but you have no problem chiming in to comment that my posts are nonsense. That does not help either.
Just read your second post. I think I try to discuss things and while I am argumentative, I hear people out and see what they are saying.
But we could agree to just stay clear of one another in Chaff. That means you don't just poke in to mention grabbing popcorn to read my nonsense and I stay clear of you as well.

Edited by Kat_P on 04/16/2014 17:57:42 MDT.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Bundy......A True American Hero? on 04/16/2014 18:21:10 MDT Print View

naw....then it would not be fun!

Kidding. I don't dislike you.....mind you. I just feel there is a small contingent here on BPL that are holier than thou.

Some like to play forum police, some like to be the agitators, some like to...well ya get it. Me? I am getting ready to hike this summer....will be epic as there is less snow (which is a bad thing or a good thing or a mixture of the two). I have some classic cross country routes I am tackling and I am stoked. I don't take Chaff to seriously until someone name checks me and takes a swipe at me. Mind you, I am not some silly little boy that cowers to others. I don't like name calling directed at me. This is a small world (us BPL peeps) and people cross paths. Enough said. I have been here day one and have done a lot here to help others with info and also other things....GGG anyone? Look I am not attacking you, just putting my two cents in because, well you just became a police officer here. Care to let us read what you edited????

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bundy......A True American Hero? on 04/16/2014 18:27:02 MDT Print View

Sounds good Ken.
I edited to add, not to take anything away. After I read your second post I added my defense, then edited again to call for staying clear of one another. Nothing taken away.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Bundy......A True American Hero? on 04/16/2014 18:59:48 MDT Print View

Homer Facepalm

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Bundy......A True American Hero? on 04/16/2014 19:31:02 MDT Print View

crap Kat....you still don't get it...maybe re-read what I wrote....sigh

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Bundy......A True American Hero? on 04/16/2014 19:39:59 MDT Print View

How so? You said "care to read what you edited" and I explained my editing.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Bundy......A True American Hero? on 04/16/2014 19:41:56 MDT Print View

What am I "still" not getting here. I said "sounds good" to your post and answered your question.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Chaff renamed... on 04/16/2014 19:50:05 MDT Print View

To the "Nuh uh... you are! NUH UH... YOU ARE! DOODY HEAD! FART FACE!" forum.

Yeah I know. Glass houses.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha! on 04/17/2014 00:03:32 MDT Print View

" I don't come to BPL to visit Chaff to argue or to be holier than thou. "

Ken, I laughed so hard at this, I peed my kilt!

p

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Can we PLEASE get back on topic...status of the Bundy burgers? on 04/17/2014 00:08:20 MDT Print View

Does anybody have ANY info on the status of the cows or the alleged mass cow grave the BLM put them in?

bb

David Olsen
(bivysack.com) - F

Locale: Channeled Scablands
Private Land Grab on 04/17/2014 06:35:09 MDT Print View

Listened to the local (WA) state rep on the radio, who went down to support the Bundy's last week. Matt Shea.
Matt Shea

What he wants (and the others he was with) is to give the Federal Lands to the
state and then sell some off to private parties, like North and South Dakota have done.

The real motives are not cattle and family ranches, its is private land grabs.

Buck Nelson
(Colter) - MLife

Locale: Alaska
The law, not the biggest militia, should prevail on 04/17/2014 10:26:38 MDT Print View

The law is pretty clear. Bundy is in the wrong. The BLM has been trying to settle this peacefully for 20 years.

Bundy said I don't recognize the United States government as even existing How do you deal with someone so delusional?

If Bundy had simply followed the rules and laws like almost everyone else, this wouldn't be an issue. If there hadn't been threats of "war" and armed resistance to the completely legal rounding up of his trespass cattle, there wouldn't have been numerous armed Federal law enforcement officials there.

What can't happen is to allow Bundy to continue thumbing his nose at the law thanks to threats of violence. We shouldn't be a nation where armed militias settle legal matters.

Wikipedia has one of the most complete and least biased summaries of the situation:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: The law, not the biggest militia, should prevail on 04/17/2014 10:51:15 MDT Print View

What's interesting is whether Bundy is considered a nut, or are there significant numbers of supporters.

The Oklahoma City bomber read "The Turner Diaries", thought that his actions would precipitate an uprising of armed militias. Fortunately he was considered a nut.

A few more people consider the people in Waco Texas as reasonable.

Ryan Smith
(ViolentGreen) - M

Locale: Southeast
Re: Re: The law, not the biggest militia, should prevail on 04/17/2014 11:30:36 MDT Print View

So the guy is a whacko who doesn't recognize the Federal govt, only the state of Nevada? I get it. Wait a minute - He paid his leasing fees to the Federal govt once upon a time so obviously he does recognize it. He only recognizes Nevada so he has been sending his fees to them since 1993 instead. Wait- No he hasn't. He's just a thief who didn't agree with the laws that were passed and found a cause that helped to explain why he wasn't going to pay....... How many of these nuts do you guys gave out west???

Ryan

Edited by ViolentGreen on 04/17/2014 11:35:24 MDT.

David Olsen
(bivysack.com) - F

Locale: Channeled Scablands
Bundy Bunch on 04/17/2014 12:42:30 MDT Print View

Clive needs a more sympathetic approach. Maybe he could line up Pussy Riot to chain themselves to cows.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Bundy Bunch on 04/17/2014 13:36:23 MDT Print View

http://news.yahoo.com/democrats-hark-back-to-the-politics-of-race-020141291.html

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: The law, not the biggest militia, should prevail on 04/17/2014 14:34:11 MDT Print View

"How many of these nuts do you guys gave out west???"

Probably about as many on a per capita basis as you do in that dark land east of the Mississippi and south of the Mason Dixon Line. ;0) But if a Nut Job Race to the Bottom were to be held tomorrow, my money'd be on the SE to win, but only by a whisker. ;o))

On a more serious note, Americans are a highly mobile people, moving on average once every 5 years, so I'd guess the nut job distribution is probably fairly homogenous by now. At least in the rural areas.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Bundy Bunch on 04/17/2014 15:20:39 MDT Print View

http://news.yahoo.com/democrats-hark-back-to-the-politics-of-race-020141291.html:

When asked if Republicans are racist, Isreal said:

"The Republican base does have elements that are animated by racism"

He didn't bring it up. I don't think "hark back to the politics of race" is a good description.

I think Republican politicians aren't racist. But they use "Dog Whistle Politics"

Like someone called Obama a "tar baby". When asked if it was racist he said he just meant a blob of tar on the beach that sticks to your foot. But it also has a racist meaning. Racists will laugh and think that Republicans are sympathetic to their cause (and vote for them).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog-whistle_politics

Dean L
(AldoLeopold) - F

Locale: Great Lakes
Re: Re: Re: Bundy Bunch on 04/17/2014 15:34:08 MDT Print View

Do you remember Col. Lawrence Wilkerson's statements during the 2012 election about his party (R)?

Ryan Smith
(ViolentGreen) - M

Locale: Southeast
Re: Re: Re: Re: The law, not the biggest militia, should prevail on 04/17/2014 16:45:20 MDT Print View

"Probably about as many on a per capita basis as you do in that dark land east of the Mississippi and south of the Mason Dixon Line. ;0)"

I will grant you that, but you guys definitely have the market cornered on the lunatic-militia man-federal govt is unconstitutional nut jobs. We just have everyone else. :)

Ryan

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The law, not the biggest militia, should prevail on 04/17/2014 19:58:05 MDT Print View

And I think here in Texas we are special in that we are technically south of the MD line AND in the west! and we have the wide variety of crazies to prove it - including the folks who think the earth is 6000 years old, dinosaurs and man lived together in harmony (ala Land of the Lost) and Thomas Jefferson was no founding father because he wrote of the importance of the separation of church and state.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The law, not the biggest militia, should prevail on 04/17/2014 20:20:48 MDT Print View

"We just have everyone else. :)"

Yes the Southeast looks lovely.

FWIW I generally hate upworthy due to their lame @$$ed litmus tests they try to subject you to for clicking on one of their stale emotion fueled reassuring hug festivals (eg "Q: click yes if you believe in equality for all. A: No I like everyone except people from Cincinnati Ohio so eff them and their sub-equitable human experience!") and all the disingenuous horse feces that goes along with it but I happened to trip on this moments ago so here you go for your viewing enjoyment.

http://www.upworthy.com/this-map-shows-there-are-10-kkk-organizations-in-my-state-how-many-are-in-yours?c=cd1

Edited by IDBLOOM on 04/17/2014 20:25:27 MDT.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The law, not the biggest militia, should prevail on 04/17/2014 20:48:50 MDT Print View

"I will grant you that, but you guys definitely have the market cornered on the lunatic-militia man-federal govt is unconstitutional nut jobs. We just have everyone else. :)"

Been to Michigan lately? ;0)

Ryan Smith
(ViolentGreen) - M

Locale: Southeast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The law, not the biggest militia, should prevail on 04/18/2014 11:11:43 MDT Print View

No. Thank goodness!

Ryan

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
What party are the real racists? on 04/18/2014 11:29:17 MDT Print View

Ken,
I'll see your:

"http://news.yahoo.com/democrats-hark-back-to-the-politics-of-race-020141291.html"


...and raise you the truth:

http://www.echoesofenoch.com/Civil_rights_history.htm

M

Truth:

Unknown History: The Real History of Civil Rights Movement



Unveiled: Democrats’ Racist Past

By Frances Rice ( Frances Rice is a lawyer, retired Army Lieutenant Colonel and Chairman of the National Black Republican Association)

Democrats who say they don’t care about civil rights history do so because they want to hide the Democratic Party’s racist past. Hypocritically, these same Democrats are quick to falsely accuse Republicans of being racist, while pontificating about why black Americans vote overwhelmingly for the Democratic Party—a party whose failed socialist policies have turned black communities into economic and social wastelands.

Surveys show that black Americans think conservative, but vote liberal because they have been barraged for over 40 years with falsehoods about the Republican Party by the Democrats who have hijacked the civil rights record of the Republican Party and taken blacks down the path of Socialism.

The time is long overdue for the curtain of deceit to be lifted and the ugly truth told about the Democratic Party’s horrendous history of racism and anti-black socialist policies that have caused so much harm to black Americans.

The Democratic Party’s Failed Socialism

The deplorable condition in black neighborhoods that have been run by Democrats for the past 40 years is well documented by black Democrat Juan Williams in his book entitled Enough: The Phony Leaders, Dead-End Movements, and Culture of Failure That Are Undermining Black America. Democrats have the audacity to blame Republicans for the crisis in black neighborhoods created by the Democrats and the temerity to claim that it is Republicans who have done nothing for blacks.

In fact, Republicans have done a great deal to help black Americans, including appointing more blacks to high-level positions than at any time in our nation’s history. Record money has been spent on education, job training and health care, as well as assistance with becoming home and small business owners. Since the 1960’s, over $7 trillion has been spent on poverty programs. The Washington Post reported that as of 2006, the federal government had in place over 80 poverty-related programs costing $500 billion annually.

Here in Florida, Governor Charlie Crist has been a leader in the civil rights movement. He achieved passage of the Dr. Marvin Davies Florida Civil Rights Act to stop discrimination. He accomplished the restoration of civil rights for ex-offenders. He also signed a budget that provides $24.4 billion for education that prepares graduates for the high-tech, high-wage jobs of the future.

Money is not the issue. The socialist policies of the Democratic Party are at the root of the pathos in black communities. To their eternal shame, Democrats fight every effort of Republicans to help blacks get out of poverty. Democrats oppose school choice opportunity scholarships that would help black parents get their children out of failing schools. Democrats oppose the faith-based initiative that would help black ministers provide social services to the poor. Democrats oppose reform of Social Security even though blacks on average lose $10,000 in the system because blacks on average have a five-year shorter life expectancy.

Despite these policies that run counter to the best interest of black people, black Americans keep voting for Democrats because every election cycle Democrats preach hatred against Republicans and get blacks to cast a protest vote against Republicans and not a vote for Democrats. Deliberately, Democrats keep black poor, angry and voting for Democrats. Any black person who becomes self-reliant and prosperous is denigrated as a “sellout.” With this reprehensible strategy, Democrats have built their power base on the backs of poor blacks. Democrat Demagogues get away with this tactic because Democrats have hidden their racist past and sold Socialism to blacks, a system that sounds good but has proven to be devastating to black communities.

Knowledge is power. In addition to exposing the failed Socialism of the Democrats, a key step to helping to free blacks from the Democratic Party’s economic plantation is to shed the light of truth on the racist past of the Democratic Party.

The Democratic Party’s Racist Past

As author Michael Scheurer succinctly stated, the Democrat Party is the party of the four S's: Slavery, Secession, Segregation and now Socialism.

Facts about racism in the Democratic Party can be found in books such as A Short History of Reconstruction by Dr. Eric Foner and Wrong on Race: The Democratic Party's Buried Past by Bruce Bartlett. Two other books are Unfounded Loyalty and Unveiling the Whole Truth by Rev. Wayne Perryman. Rev. Perryman wrote his books after conducting five years of research. He then sued the Democratic Party for that party’s 200-year history of racism. Under oath in court, the Democrats admitted their racist past, but refused to apologize because they know that they can take the black vote for granted.

History shows that Democrats fought to expand slavery while Republicans fought to end it. From its founding in 1854 as the anti-slavery party until today, the Republican Party has championed freedom and civil rights for blacks. Republicans fought to free blacks from slavery and amended the Constitution to grant blacks freedom (13th Amendment), citizenship (14th Amendment) and the right to vote (15th Amendment). Republicans also passed the civil rights laws of the 1860's, including the Civil Rights Act of 1866 and the Reconstruction Act of 1867 that was designed to establish a new government system in the Democrat-controlled South, one that was fair to blacks.

Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Was A Republican and NBRA Logo ItemsIt was Democrats who started the Ku Klux Klan that became the terrorist arm of the Democratic Party to lynch and terrorize Republicans-black and white. Democrats passed those discriminatory Black Codes and Jim Crow laws and fought every piece of civil rights legislation from the 1860’s to the 1960’s. Shamefully, Democrats fought against anti-lynching laws, and when the Democrats regained control of Congress in 1892, they passed the Repeal Act of 1894 that overturned civil right laws enacted by Republicans. Republicans founded the HCBU’s and started the NAACP to counter the racist practices of the Democrats. It took Republicans six decades to finally enact civil rights laws in the 1950’s and 1960’s, over the objection of Democrats.

It defies logic for Democrats today to claim that the racist Democrats suddenly joined the Republican Party after Republicans—including Republican Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.—finally won the civil rights battle against the racist Democrats. In fact, the racist Democrats declared that they would rather vote for a “yellow dog” than vote for a Republican, because the Republican Party was known as the party for blacks.

The Modern Civil Rights Era

Undeniably, during the civil rights era of the 1960's, it was the Democrats who Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. and the other protestors were fighting. Democrat Public Safety Commissioner Eugene "Bull" Connor in Birmingham let loose vicious dogs and turned skin-burning fire hoses on black civil rights demonstrators. Democrat Georgia Governor Lester Maddox famously brandished ax handles to prevent blacks from patronizing his restaurant. Democrat Alabama Governor George Wallace stood in front of the Alabama schoolhouse in 1963 and thundered, "Segregation now, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever." In 1954, Democrat Arkansas Governor Orville Faubus tried to prevent desegregation of a Little Rock public school.



Historical records show that it was Republican President Dwight Eisenhower who established the U.S. Civil Rights Commission, enforced the desegregation of the military, sent troops to Arkansas to desegregate the schools, and appointed Chief Justice Earl Warren to the U.S. Supreme Court which resulted in the 1954 Brown vs. Board of Education decision ending school segregation. Eisenhower also supported the civil rights laws of 1957 and 1960.

Little known by many today is the fact that it was Republican Senator Everett Dirksen from Illinois, not Democrat President Lyndon Johnson, who pushed through the civil rights laws of the 1960’s. In fact, Dirksen was key to the passage of civil rights legislation in 1957, 1960, 1964, 1965 and 1968. Dirksen wrote the language for the 1965 Voting Rights Act. Dirksen also crafted the language for the Civil Rights Act of 1968 which prohibited discrimination in housing.



Omitted from discussions today are significant facts about the struggle to pass the landmark 1964 Civil Rights Act. The law guaranteed equal access to public facilities and banned racial discrimination by any entity receiving federal government financing. The law was an update of Republican Charles Sumner's 1875 Civil Rights Act which had been stuck down by the Democrat-controlled US Supreme Court in 1883.

The chief opponents of the 1964 Civil Rights Act were Democrat Senators Sam Ervin, Albert Gore, Sr. and Robert Byrd. Senator Byrd, a former member of the Ku Klux Klan, filibustered against the bill for 14 straight hours before the final vote. Former presidential candidate Richard Nixon lobbied hard for the passage of the bill. When the bill finally came up for a vote, the House of Representatives passed the bill by 289 to 124. 80% of Republicans in the House of Representatives voted yes, and only 63% of Democrats voted yes. The Senate vote was 73 to 27, with 21 Democrats in the Senate voting no, and only 6 Republicans voting no.

Equally important was the 1965 Voting Rights Act that authorized the federal government to abolish literacy tests and other means used to prevent blacks from exercising their constitutional right to vote that was granted by the 15th Amendment to the Constitution. With images of violence against civil rights protestors led by Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. shaping the national debate, Democrats in Congress finally decided not to filibuster the Voting Rights Act of 1965. When the bill came up for a vote, both houses of Congress passed the bill. In the House of Representatives, 85% of Republicans and 80% of Democrats voted for the bill. In the Senate, 17 Democrats voted no, and only one Republican voted no.

Edited by bigfoot2 on 04/18/2014 11:30:31 MDT.

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: What party are the real racists? on 04/18/2014 15:29:12 MDT Print View

You know Matthew, I never understand why conservatives bring this stuff up. Can you cite one single thing since 1964 where the GOP has been more progressive on civil rights than the democrats?

Back then the GOP was for a marginal tax rate of 90%, too...and I don't see you continuing to bring that up.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: What party are the real racists? on 04/18/2014 17:41:52 MDT Print View

again Matthew, as I brought up earlier...The GOP and Dems have traded places in the care stakes....which includes allowing others that are not white a chance in life. It is silly and quite ill-informed on your part not to realize this.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Re: What party are the real racists? on 04/18/2014 17:43:12 MDT Print View

and all the people that you mentioned that were "good" Republicans would have been Dems in today's society. LOL

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: What party are the real racists? on 04/18/2014 17:45:02 MDT Print View

It's not that the GOP and Dems have traded places

It's that the southern senators that were Democratic switched to Republican after the Civil Rights Bills were passed

LBJ said that the Democrats would lose them for generations but thought he had no choice but to do it anyway

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
How about TODAY's GOP? on 04/18/2014 18:41:01 MDT Print View

"Here in Florida, Governor Charlie Crist has been a leader in the civil rights movement."

--- well, i believe Former Gov Crist left the GOP in disgust and is now a Democrat

"Historical records show that it was Republican President Dwight Eisenhower who established the U.S. Civil Rights Commission, enforced the desegregation of the military, sent troops to Arkansas to desegregate the schools, and appointed Chief Justice Earl Warren to the U.S. Supreme Court which resulted in the 1954 Brown vs. Board of Education decision ending school segregation. Eisenhower also supported the civil rights laws of 1957 and 1960."

--- you mean the Eisenhower who famously said "Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance, and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our history."
--- the same Eisenhower who invested TAX DOLLARS in a socialist highway system?
--- the same Eisenhower who said "Legislation to apply the principle of equal pay for equal work without discrimination because of sex is a matter of simple justice. "

"Republicans have done a great deal to help black Americans, including appointing more blacks to high-level positions than at any time in our nation’s history"

--- you mean like Colin Powell, who has disavowed the GOP?

Shall I go on?????

The GOP would eviscerate these people as pansy liberal elites now.

As I asked...will those of you who disagree with the notion that the GOP is actually welcoming to African Americans (or Hispanics for that matter) please give a MODERN day example of that welcoming spirit??

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Here PIGGY, PIGGY! on 04/19/2014 01:18:40 MDT Print View

Jerry,
You stated: "It's not that the GOP and Dems have traded places

It's that the southern senators that were Democratic switched to Republican after the Civil Rights Bills were passed"

This is complete BS...re-read the article I posted above, from a BLACK REPUBLICAN, that totally nullifies what you just stated. Your argument is invalid, old and worn out. Get a new one. Awwh...you'll never read it, so i'll just re-post that part for you:

"It defies logic for Democrats today to claim that the racist Democrats suddenly joined the Republican Party after Republicans—including Republican Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.—finally won the civil rights battle against the racist Democrats. In fact, the racist Democrats declared that they would rather vote for a “yellow dog” than vote for a Republican, because the Republican Party was known as the party for blacks."

Jennifer and Ken (and Jerry),
You three are the most ardent, vocal supporters of your mindless Democratic party ideology on BPL. That's fine, but it really does not matter what I post as a reply to you guys, as you will just scream "Racist! Homophobic! Bigot!", etc. There is no room for other ideas or points of view in your minds, as it's either your way or the highway. You will do whatever it takes, name calling, personal attacks and derogatory statements, to belittle your opponents point of views, and in the process, become just what you are supposedly fighting against. You guys will be the first to bully someone who disagrees with your anti-bullying platform. LOL. I honestly view you as sheep at this point. To you, the end justifies the means.

I received a PM this morning from a member here on BPL that stated that " trying to debate Ken is like trying to wrestle a dyslexic, greased piglet with turrets,PTSD and downs syndrome". That's not really very far off. Most conservatives on BPL (and there are more than you'd think) are intimidated by the very vocal minority of liberals who attack anything other than their narrow mindset, so they kept their mouths shut. I wrote a reply to that person that stated that the reason I get on here and debate you guys is not to change YOUR minds, but to assure OTHER people who think like I do that they are not alone! The only people who bother to bring up someones race or ethnicity are Democrat liberals, like you. Can't you see the hypocrisy? I know the color of someone's skin or their ethnicity is the last thing (if at all) anyone in my county's local chapter of the Republican party ever thinks about. That's because it simply does not matter. The reason for this is because the Republican party was expressly started to combat slavery and promote civil rights. Period. That's history and a fact. Your party was not. Quite the opposite, really. I'm sure you'll say "that was a long time ago. Now you are all racist, white, rich folks!". Yeah, that's like saying our Constitution is old and outdated and does not matter. Yes, history matters! The best gauge of what a party will do in the future is what it has done in the past. History gives us a compass bearing when we stray from the correct path by reminding us what we are there for. Why the party was started and where we are going. Sure, there's people who match your description of the Republican party, but they are not the majority. The same can be said of the Democrats. There are always stereotypes, exceptions, but they are not the norm.

Early Democrat Part VS. Republican Party Poster:

d

Jennifer, you said:
"As I asked...will those of you who disagree with the notion that the GOP is actually welcoming to African Americans (or Hispanics for that matter) please give a MODERN day example of that welcoming spirit??"

What kind of a trick question is that? Talk about arbitrary. What is your definition of "welcoming"? No matter who or what I post, you are so closed minded and blinded by your liberal ideology that you will just laugh, give a reason why they sold out and are an "Uncle Tom", or call them misguided at best, stupid at worst. Seriously? Here, little piggy, let's wipe that grease off you..oink, oink.

b

That said, there are lots of men and women who think for themselves (and are of a certain skin "color" that Democrats constantly love to bring up), that define themselves as conservative. It's not "cool" or "hip" to do so, so they are doubly brave these days and should be applauded for free thinking and not giving in to peer pressure. Here is just a few prominent ones that come to mind (I don't include Powell, as I thought he was a JOKE):

Alan Keyes
Condoleezza Rice
Frederick Douglass
Thomas Sowell
Allen West
Tim Scott
Clarence Thomas
Michael S. Steele
Michael L. Williams
Alveda C. King
J. Kenneth Blackwell
J.C. Watts Jr
Jennette B. Bradley
Don King
Lynn Swann (1974-1982 Pittsburgh Steelers)
Sammy Davis Jr
Edward William Brooke, III
Herman Cain
Ben Carson
b
Mia Love
A. Philip Randolph
Harriet Tubman
George Washington Carver
Martin Luther King, Jr.

I could go on and on, but my point is made.
So...in response to your question, Jennifer, please tell me who the first Democratic black congressman was, how many blacks have been elected to congress and how does that record compare to Republican congressman? Should be easy to Google. I know, it's not an arbitrary assignment where you can use emotions as facts, but I have faith in you you. You can do it!

M

Edited by bigfoot2 on 04/19/2014 02:21:05 MDT.

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: Here PIGGY, PIGGY! on 04/19/2014 08:06:12 MDT Print View

"Here, little piggy, let's wipe that grease off you..oink, oink."

seriously?

And you are telling ME I have no intelligent, rational argument? I'll just let that one sit there - you are a better argument against yourself than anything I could ever say.



You still never answered my question about how the CURRENT crop of conservatives is even remotely welcoming to minorities (not jim crow, not Harriet Tubmann - and by the way, MLK was not a republican: (from Snopes)
"A commonly circulated item about Martin Luther King which is not included in this list is the claim that King was a Republican. Such claims are based purely on speculation; King himself never expressed an affiliation with, nor endorsed candidates for, any political party, and his son, Martin Luther King III, said: "It is disingenuous to imply that my father was a Republican. He never endorsed any presidential candidate, and there is certainly no evidence that he ever even voted for a Republican."
Read more at http://www.snopes.com/history/american/mlking.asp#7BJGAz285AXbUWR4.99" )

The simple fact that you can actually make a list of conservative black people (including several from the time of slavery) just proves my point. I'm not saying NO blacks or hispanics are conservative...of course not. But when you have 95% of a population voting against you, and in the case of hispanics an increasingly larger percentage every election cycle, has to mean something substantive.

Please oh please tell me you aren't one of those current tea party folks who want to actually argue that the black man was better off during slavery because he had 2 parents and that he actually enjoyed his servitude........
http://politicalscrapbook.net/2011/07/michelle-bacmann-slavery/

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Here PIGGY, PIGGY! on 04/19/2014 08:18:24 MDT Print View

"Your argument is invalid, old and worn out. Get a new one..."

https://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/big/0619.html#article

All the 22 Southern Senators voted against the bill - 21 Democrats and 1 Republican

Today there are 16 Republican and 6 Democratic Senators in southern states

I'll give that writer credit for coming up with a bunch of words that says otherwise. A good debater can win either side of an argument.


What's too bad is that after the civil war there wasn't more reconciliation. We needed a Nelson Mandella. Or maybe Nelson Mandella saw how horrible "reconstruction" was so he made sure the same thing didn't happen in South Africa.

Maybe there wouldn't be so much animosity today.

The Confederates were more skillful but were ground down by the North's better manufacturing. Both sides fought bravely. Let's put it behind us. But remember how horrible war is so we don't repeat.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Here PIGGY, PIGGY! on 04/19/2014 09:51:01 MDT Print View

Jennifer and Jerry....you both just ran rings around Matthew.

Matthew (shaking my head right now) you crack me up man.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Bundy......A True American Hero? on 04/19/2014 11:11:22 MDT Print View

I am very aware that this article has a slant ( Austrian economics) but there are bits in here worth incorporating. Interesting map as well.

http://mises.org/daily/6723/Ranchers-and-Empire-in-the-American-West

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Bundy......A True American Hero? on 04/19/2014 14:02:26 MDT Print View

That is weird, and arbitrary that so much land in the West is federally owned.

Of course, most of it is arid and not real valuable.

If some of it was sold, I hope it would be done at a fair price, wouldn't just be a give-a-way to the politically connected. Sort of like all those businesses in the USSR.

Interesting that big businesses are happier with federal ownership than smaller.

Charles G.
(Rincon) - M

Locale: Desert Southwest
Public lands. on 04/19/2014 15:43:55 MDT Print View

"That is weird, and arbitrary that so much land in the West is federally owned."

Not really. Virtually all of what now constitutes our public lands is land that was left over after "The Closing of the American West". During the westward movement, huge tracts of land passed into private ownership via The Homestead Act, mining claims, The Timber and Stone Act, railroad and wagon road land grants and grants to the states for Land Grant colleges and statehood grants, among others. A lot of land also passed into private hands fraudulently.

The land that remained unclaimed, because nobody wanted it, eventually passed into Federal ownership under the administration of the USFS and the BLM. The Federal government pays Lieu Payments to most of the counties in which the lands lie; these are payments "in lieu" of property taxes and are often the major source of income to many rural counties.

The USFS and BLM are mandated to manage these lands "for the greatest good of the greatest number in the long run". They are not to manage for the welfare of local timber men or cattlemen. There may be numerous disputes regarding the details of how these lands are managed but, they are managed according to Congressional mandate, not according to the whims of a local bureaucrat.

In my opinion, these lands are a national treasure and should be protected for eternity from passing into private hands. Those who advocate turning federal lands over to the states should be careful what they ask for. If federal lands were turned over to the states, the states would then be responsible for the lieu payments and I don't think they would welcome the added burden nor would the counties welcome the potential loss of income.

There are many with opinions of how our federal lands should be managed. These opinions are seldom based on any knowledge of the history, laws or issues on which management is based: this just confirms my notion that ignorance is seldom a barrier to opinion.

Edited by Rincon on 04/19/2014 16:02:13 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Public lands. on 04/19/2014 16:50:13 MDT Print View

I'm not arguing one way or the other, just wondering on what basis land should be privatized

Up to some point in time, land was privatized as you mentioned, so the land that was deemed most useful was taken. Then, the remaining, less useful land was kept as federal. That is somewhat arbitrary.

If you rent land to ranchers, they may not treat it as well as if they owned the land forever. If they owned it, they'de want to preserve it for future years.

On the other hand, lots of examples of owners taking short term profits and not worrying about the long term, like some lumber companies

Sometimes the federal government is better at managing the land, sometime not so good.

I definitely object to the government taking a short term profit by selling it, and then squandering those profits. Like there are some cases of selling off highways to private companies. Profits solve short term fiscal problems. "Libertarian" politicians brag about how great they are fiscally. But then there are long term problems.

Maybe, given no strong reason one way or the other, just leave as is.

And we should make sure that we are sustaining populations of plants and animals, whether the land is public or private, but maybe easier if it's public.

. Kirby
(Kirby805) - F
Re: Re: Here PIGGY, PIGGY! on 04/19/2014 19:19:01 MDT Print View

"...when you have 95% of a population voting against you, and in the case of hispanics an increasingly larger percentage every election cycle, has to mean something substantive."

Let's be honest. The only reason they don't vote for conservatives is because they are low information voters, or brainwashed by the elite Hollywood mainstream MSM medias, or just want more free stuff for the lazy moocher victims. It has nothing to do with conservatives' policies or widely publicized comments. There's no "good" reason minorities don't vote for conservatives. Whatever the reason may be, it's not conservatives' fault.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Let's not forget on 04/19/2014 19:34:21 MDT Print View

....that backpacking in the US in general, and backpacking light in particular are for the most part a white privileged bunch of folks.
Not putting down anyone; I think I am very privileged , but it seems an odd place to be discussing ethnicities and voting. I think we come off as even more privileged and clueless and may be causing some legitimate head shaking. It is quite likely that in large part the African American community is tired of anyone else speaking for them.


Edited for spelling.

Edited by Kat_P on 04/20/2014 16:34:08 MDT.

Charles G.
(Rincon) - M

Locale: Desert Southwest
Oh boy! on 04/19/2014 19:44:10 MDT Print View

"Let's be honest. The only reason they don't vote for conservatives is because they are low information voters, or brainwashed by the elite Hollywood mainstream MSM medias, or just want more free stuff for the lazy moocher victims. It has nothing to do with conservatives' policies or widely publicized comments. There's no "good" reason minorities don't vote for conservatives. Whatever the reason may be, it's not conservatives' fault."

Well, I guess that clears thing up. It's always refreshing to hear an unbiased, objective simplistic opinion on a complex subject. As I stated in an earlier post, "ignorance is seldom a barrier to opinion". Your post confirms my notion.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Let's not forget on 04/20/2014 07:24:54 MDT Print View

sigh

Edited by kennyhel77 on 04/20/2014 07:33:31 MDT.

. Kirby
(Kirby805) - F
Re: Oh boy! on 04/20/2014 11:00:23 MDT Print View

Sorry, Chuck. Forgot to add the sarcasm font.

Charles G.
(Rincon) - M

Locale: Desert Southwest
Oh boy on 04/20/2014 12:34:10 MDT Print View

Thanks! When you find it tell me please.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: perche' lo posso fare. on 04/20/2014 16:53:26 MDT Print View

Ma invece dei sospiri o di scuotere la testa, se veramente sei confuso e non capisci di che stiamo parlando, facci la cortesia di chiedere una spiegazione. La pigrizia mentale e la disonesta' con la quale partecipi alla discussione, la violenza con la quale ti esprimi, forse dovuta a certi eccessi, sono fuori luogo e servono solo a dimostrare le tue limitazioni.



Spellcheck non funziona bene in un altra lingua ..

Edited by Kat_P on 04/20/2014 17:13:53 MDT.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: perche' lo posso fare. on 04/21/2014 09:17:03 MDT Print View

Interesting insight!^^^^

Dave T
(DaveT) - F
charles on 04/21/2014 11:22:23 MDT Print View

Charles,

You had to go and introduce actual facts and historical perspective into this, didn't you? That must have taken some thought and reason.

You perhaps don't realize that all you need to do to participate here is to post several internet memes related to guns/blacks/immigrants/guvment/freedom/'merica.

Anyway, proceed.

p.s. "dyslexic piglet with turrets..." I guess to wrestle them you first have to break down the fortifications with a trebuchet. Also, that disorder sounds suspiciously French, so perhaps we should rename it Freedom Disorder.

Edited by DaveT on 04/21/2014 13:58:56 MDT.

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
similar case from last year on 04/21/2014 16:25:23 MDT Print View

http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/constitution/item/15602-federal-judge-rules-for-property-rights-smacks-down-abusive-feds

http://blog.heritage.org/2013/06/11/court-rebuffs-government-overreach-in-nevada/

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: similar case from last year on 04/21/2014 17:24:01 MDT Print View

hmmm... heritage.org... probably not an objective source

1 minute of googleing:
http://crooksandliars.com/2014/04/cliven-bundy-john-birch-society-and-koch

the Hage case was reversed by the appeals court and the supreme court refused to hear it

the John Birch Society and Koch brothers were party to the appeal

The Koch brothers father was a founder of John Birch Society which "claims to identify with Christian principles, seeks to limit governmental powers, and opposes wealth redistribution, and economic interventionism. It opposes collectivism, totalitarianism, and communism. It opposes socialism as well, which it asserts is infiltrating US governmental administration." Opposed Civil Rights Bill.

Conservative William F Buckley denounced them as racist and far right, and they fell out of popularity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Birch_Society

It seems like they've come back today under a different name, although that organization still exists.

So, 1960s conservatives like William F Buckley seem like liberals today.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: similar case from last year on 04/21/2014 18:04:49 MDT Print View

"hmmm... heritage.org... probably not an objective source"

True. Neither is the OP's source, politicususa.

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
Re: Re: similar case from last year on 04/21/2014 21:19:35 MDT Print View

Jerry,

I'd like to point out that the win in court (no matter what happened later) shows the issue isn't cut and dried. I have thoughts about both sides, but it isn't black and white. That has been my point all along.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: similar case from last year on 04/21/2014 22:11:34 MDT Print View

okay, you have a good point

HK Newman
(hknewman) - MLife

Locale: Western US
Apocalypse Cow (segment) on 04/22/2014 19:30:30 MDT Print View

This is going to be the tough part about giving up 24-hr cable news cycle ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=W1SUt7Y7FSA

Ed. maybe a tad harsh at the very end.. but just a tad

Edited by hknewman on 04/23/2014 08:41:25 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Apocalypse Cow (segment) on 04/22/2014 19:40:51 MDT Print View

"Sean Hannity has now made Glenn Beck the voice of reason" : )

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: Re: Apocalypse Cow (segment) on 04/23/2014 08:24:35 MDT Print View

I'm glad someone posted that. It was hilarious!!!!


I do find it interesting that he claims he does not recognize the existence of the federal government, then goes around and waves the American flag and discussing the constitution.

I also find it very ironic that they were bragging about putting the women in front to take the brunt of the force (if it came to that) simply for TV. Sounds a little like al qaeda to me, doesn't it???

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Re: Apocalypse Cow (segment) on 04/23/2014 10:43:31 MDT Print View

Yes Jennifer it sure does sound like that. His family has been using the landv since the 1940's .....hardly homesteading. The fact that he does not recognize the Fed. Govt. and yet waves an American flag makes him less credible.

Let's put the shoe on the other foot 'kay? What if those whacked out "patriots" were Latino or African Americans and they were drawing guns on the Feds.....do you think this would have ended that way? Also the Feds set a bad precedent by allowing this nuto's to walk free. Last I heard it is against the law to draw firearms on people...more importantly Fed Agents. Now these whacked out patriots will be doing this more. Jr. Johnv Wayne types

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
From the highly conservative Weekly Standard on 04/23/2014 20:29:16 MDT Print View

http://m.weeklystandard.com/articles/uncivil-disobedience_787040.html

Very well thought out and reasoned argument.

Glenn S
(Glenn64) - M

Locale: Snowhere, MN
It would make a great book. on 04/23/2014 21:47:00 MDT Print View

Caution: Conspiratorial thoughts ahead. Discount at your own peril.

As the underground American Resistance Movement grows, against the force of an ever increasingly tyrannical and shadowy government, pockets of uprisings become more frequent, and increasingly violent. To believe this particular Agenda 21 battlefront has anything to do with grazing cows and burrowing turtles is to be blinded by media hype and led astray of the true issues at hand. Argue amongst yourselves all you like, it's precisely what they want.

Meanwhile, back on the ranch...

spelt !
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Apocalypse Cow (segment) on 04/24/2014 07:27:53 MDT Print View

> Let's put the shoe on the other foot 'kay? What if those whacked out "patriots" were Latino or African Americans and they were drawing guns on the Feds.....do you think this would have ended that way?






Ta-Nehisi Coates is way ahead of ya/
Cliven Bundy and the Tyranny All Around Us

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Apocalypse Cow (segment) on 04/24/2014 08:29:08 MDT Print View

and of course Bundy is a bigot

http://gawker.com/nevada-rancher-conservative-hero-negroes-should-be-1566933606?utm_campaign=socialflow_gawker_facebook&utm_source=gawker_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

HK Newman
(hknewman) - MLife

Locale: Western US
For old tyme cotton pickin' too it seems .. on 04/24/2014 08:41:29 MDT Print View

A reporter got this quote from Bundy (registered Republican who is now giving daily new conferences), published yesterday:

“I want to tell you one more thing I know about the Negro,” ... Mr. Bundy recalled driving past a public-housing project in North Las Vegas ",.... they didn’t have nothing to do. They didn’t have nothing for their kids to do....

“And because they were basically on government subsidy, so now what do they do?” he asked. “They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never learned how to pick cotton. And I’ve often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things,…” Source: New York Times (4/23/2014)

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/24/us/politics/rancher-proudly-breaks-the-law-becoming-a-hero-in-the-west.html?hpw&rref=us&_r=0

Read it and weep. Wonder what kind of family life, free time, and hobbies he thought an African slave had in the antebellum South? Of course this from a "welfare rancher" . Please note: I do not have a problem if someone plays wants to play cowboy on the open range with a six-shooter or even Ms. Kitty in an old time saloon with a derringer in her garter - just should we be subsidizing this?

Currently many Republican politicians are now backpedaling support of Bundy or saying "no comment"

Nevada (R) Senator Heller has disavowed Bundy ...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/04/24/cliven-bundy-racist_n_5204821.html?utm_hp_ref=politics

update: Rancher Bundy is toast (Sen. Rand Paul just slammed Clive Bundy's racist rant)

http://www.politico.com/story/2014/04/rand-paul-dean-heller-cliven-bundy-105982.html

ed: br, add

Edited by hknewman on 04/24/2014 09:35:36 MDT.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: For old tyme cotton pickin' too it seems .. on 04/24/2014 09:29:54 MDT Print View

but he has no shortage of "patriots" still supporting the vile man. As I have mentioned earlier there is an underlying feel of racism in the Tea Party. And yes, those same "patriots" have many of the same beliefs as the Tea Party.


Now watch Matthew and Kat defend........ 5 4 3 2 1....... BOOM

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
race baiting liberal me. on 04/24/2014 09:31:18 MDT Print View

Matthew....I am race baiting once again :)


and change the color of this nutjob from white to black....would you think he would be alive today??? Hmmm....food for thought...right?


shoot

Edited by kennyhel77 on 04/24/2014 09:33:12 MDT.

. Kirby
(Kirby805) - F
Re: For old tyme cotton pickin' too it seems .. on 04/24/2014 09:38:10 MDT Print View

Like I said earlier, I don't think Bundy refused to pay his cattle grazing fees because he is a racist. It's just that being a racist just comes with the territory for far right wing nuts.

I am a little disappointed that all the Bundy apologists have disappeared. Now comes the even better part where conservatives all try to pretend that Bundy isn't a "real" conservative, or they will try to paint him as a liberal because he voted Democrat 40 years ago. You can't make this stuff up.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: For old tyme cotton pickin' too it seems .. on 04/24/2014 09:57:59 MDT Print View

I say this.....if all of these "patriots" wanna play army, then let them play army. Gather them all together and do a draft like they do in sports. Once drafted between the two armies. Then let them play out their silly fantasies killing each other in a war.

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
ken, ken, ken on 04/24/2014 10:14:20 MDT Print View

You brought race into this long before you ever had any kind of quote or the slightest hint of racism. You are just as guilty as Bundy.

Unlike many on here if Bush was president and this guy a hippy from SF you would be on his side regardless of the facts.

Just because the dude is a loon, doesn't mean that some of the issues aren't real. It is unfortunate that he is distracting from the greater issue about Bundy a how the federal government deals with public and private land. But as is often the case, you and a several of your like minded left wing extremist care more about attacking people who disagree than discussing the issues.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: ken, ken, ken on 04/24/2014 10:20:03 MDT Print View

but hippy's come from other places than San Francisco :)

Glad you did not write San Fran, then I would have to laugh at you

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Bundy......A True American Hero? on 04/24/2014 10:38:03 MDT Print View

"Matthew....I am race baiting once again :)"

Nothing new here, i'm afraid. I think Michael just made your arguments invalid in a very concise way, Ken. Nice try, though.

d

PS--Sory I haven't taken any of your bait lately, i've been busy working and actually hiking and have not spent every waking moment keeping up on the thread like you have.

Edited by bigfoot2 on 04/24/2014 10:39:47 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: For old tyme cotton pickin' too it seems .. on 04/24/2014 11:14:28 MDT Print View

I don't think Kat defended Bundy, she just asked if it was reasonable to have such a large percentage of Western land owned by the federal government : )

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: For old tyme cotton pickin' too it seems .. on 04/24/2014 11:14:34 MDT Print View

"Now watch Matthew and Kat defend........ 5 4 3 2 1....... BOOM"


To speak of me as someone who would defend racist ideas and comments is wrong and ignorant and this is as much of a response as I have for that.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Re: For old tyme cotton pickin' too it seems .. on 04/24/2014 11:22:21 MDT Print View

Nowhere did I write that you would defend a racist. Learn to read.

HK Newman
(hknewman) - MLife

Locale: Western US
A balanced view on 04/24/2014 11:25:13 MDT Print View

BLM does sell or lease their land holdings all the time, .... if you live in the interior West, you know. The issue here is the very small fee for grazing on public land that he (Bundy) has let build up for decades. Same thing as drivers who let unpaid parking tickets or toll fees build up ... and sometimes it results in rage - a former college work study student I knew physically assaulted a tow truck company attendant about 25 years ago when his car was towed for illegal parking. So, using the Bundy logic, the student would be right to use force to defend the illegally parked car ... taking it further, if a customer doesn't agree with his/her bills, is it then Ok (rhetorically) to bring an armed posse to a business?

Add, it seems Bundy was actually pretty smart to frame the delinquent debt as a political cause but got overconfident, leaving some important Senators hanging. Win a battle, lose the war ..

ed: add

Edited by hknewman on 04/24/2014 11:35:24 MDT.

. Kirby
(Kirby805) - F
Oh dear on 04/24/2014 11:38:01 MDT Print View

"Just because the dude is a loon, doesn't mean that some of the issues aren't real."

This is a great catch-all excuse. Cut and paste at your leisure.

Of course there are issues somewhere buried in this circus sideshow. There are always legitimate issues raised by lunatics if you search hard enough. I really don't mean to be a dick, but seriously. That's pretty weasely.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: A balanced view on 04/24/2014 11:38:07 MDT Print View

and here comes the backtracking....lol

http://news.yahoo.com/list-cliven-bundys-supporters-now-know-hes-pro-133625625.html

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: A balanced view on 04/24/2014 11:41:56 MDT Print View

I don't think very many conservatives ever defended Bundy. Hannity did but not Beck for example. I didn't hear of any politicians.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Re: A balanced view on 04/24/2014 11:51:28 MDT Print View

"Nevada's Democrats were quick to call out all the local Republicans who supported Bundy, including Cresent Hardy, Niger Innis, Adam Laxalt and Michele Fiore.

Fiore spoke with both Sean Hannity on Fox News and Chris Hayes on MSNBC to argue the Bundy cause. Hayes spoke with Fiore over video, as she was attending the Bundy ranch barbecue. She stopped short of saying that she agreed with Bundy in not recognizing the authority of the federal government, but questioned the heavy handedness of the BLM. "I'm not saying I agree with Cliven Bundy, what I'm saying is, the way this was handled was really suspicious." Fiore doesn't believe Bundy owes the government $1 million in unpaid grazing fees — it's probably closer to a couple hundred thousand"


One of many

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: For old tyme cotton pickin' too it seems .. on 04/24/2014 11:56:14 MDT Print View

"Nowhere did I write that you would defend a racist. Learn to read."

"Now watch Matthew and Kat defend........ 5 4 3 2 1....... BOOM" is saying that Kat would defend Bundy, who is a racist, so that would be defending a racist. But that's just my interpretation. Kat never defended Bundy.

Matthew said he would go down there with his gun so your comment would be applicable to him

I think that since Bundy made such racist comments, any support of Bundy is an implied agreement with his racism

At the least any positive comment about Bundy has to be prefaced with condemnation of his racism

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: A balanced view on 04/24/2014 11:58:37 MDT Print View

"One of many"

Okay, so many nut Republican politicians to choose from : )

At least prominent Republican politicians didn't support him?

David Olsen
(bivysack.com) - F

Locale: Channeled Scablands
Re: Re: Re: Re: For old tyme cotton pickin' too it seems .. on 04/24/2014 13:06:58 MDT Print View

"To speak of me as someone who would defend racist ideas and comments is wrong and ignorant and this is as much of a response as I have for that."

For sure. K you read into things what you want.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: For old tyme cotton pickin' too it seems .. on 04/24/2014 14:24:57 MDT Print View

Maybe I misread, and I would ask for an explanation but has never worked. I do not like the Tea Party; I have never defended Bundy.

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
Re: Oh dear on 04/24/2014 14:28:44 MDT Print View

kirby,

""Just because the dude is a loon, doesn't mean that some of the issues aren't real."

This is a great catch-all excuse. Cut and paste at your leisure.

Of course there are issues somewhere buried in this circus sideshow. There are always legitimate issues raised by lunatics if you search hard enough. I really don't mean to be a dick, but seriously. That's pretty weasely."


Weasely? I'm not even sure how to interperet taht, but you can get ought of here with that garbage. If you really don't want to be a dick, then I suggest you don't post like one.

I have posted on the topic in general terms and even brought a different but similar instance into the discussion. That is addressing the specific issues raised by the Bundy case without trying to elevate him (much less to the hero level as suggested by Ken in the OP) or even like the man. If you just want insult and attack, you can play with Ken.

. Kirby
(Kirby805) - F
Re: Re: Oh dear on 04/24/2014 14:40:49 MDT Print View

I really didn't mean to insult you, Mike.

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
ok on 04/24/2014 14:46:46 MDT Print View

I'll take you off the list then.

David Olsen
(bivysack.com) - F

Locale: Channeled Scablands
bundy liar? on 04/24/2014 14:47:18 MDT Print View

"I’ve lived my lifetime here. My forefathers have been up and down the Virgin Valley here ever since 1877. All these rights that I claim, have been created through pre-emptive rights and beneficial use of the forage and the water and the access and range improvements,” Bundy said.

Clark County property records show Cliven Bundy’s parents moved from Bundyville, Arizona and bought the 160 acre ranch in 1948 from Raoul and Ruth Leavitt.

Water rights were transferred too, but only to the ranch, not the federally managed land surrounding it. Court records show Bundy family cattle didn’t start grazing on that land until 1954."

http://www.newshounds.us/cliven_bundy_lied_about_his_family_s_ancestral_rights_and_fox_news_let_him_04222014

. Kirby
(Kirby805) - F
Re: ok on 04/24/2014 14:50:39 MDT Print View

whew

spelt !
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Re: bundy liar? on 04/24/2014 15:57:42 MDT Print View

I'm shocked. Shocked, I tell you.

Scott Jones
(Endeavor) - M
Bundy was born ignorant and has been losing ground ever since. on 04/24/2014 22:45:49 MDT Print View

Typical hypocrite Mormon who doesn't pay his taxes like honest people do. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, (The Mormons) claim to belief in 14 Articles of Faith. In fact, on their official website www.mormon.org they post these 14 beliefs or articles of faith as they call them. The 12th article states, "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law." Now this ignorant Bundy guy thinks he is above the law and doesn't have to pay his tax, I think that makes him a thief, a liar, and nowhere near a hero.

He is also a racist where today he quoted and repeated himself again that "blacks were happier and better off during the slavery era" The guy is completely out of touch with reality, the law, and should be jailed.

As for the right wing maniacs who went down there with high hopes of murdering a federal officer because they watched "Red Dawn" about twenty times to often I suggest they do some soul searching about what they claim to be defending or protecting. In this case it appears to be a racist hypocrite Mormon who is a tax dodger. Oh well, just more proof that God does not have a quality control program.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Bundy was born ignorant and has been losing ground ever since. on 04/25/2014 07:46:07 MDT Print View

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/04/25/republicans-are-racists-no-it-s-just-all-a-big-coincidence.html

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Bundy was born ignorant and has been losing ground ever since. on 04/25/2014 09:54:18 MDT Print View

Republicans aren't racists, but the politicians make subtle statements that make racists think they're "one of them" to get racists to vote for them.

Like if someone asks if Obama was born in Kenya, they don't usually say "no that's ridiculous", they say "you have a good point". Except McCain, but he lost, so that just teaches otyher Republican politicians not to do that.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Re: Bundy was born ignorant and has been losing ground ever since. on 04/25/2014 10:22:21 MDT Print View

the article almost had a feel of parody. And no, not all GOP members are racist. I hope that racism is on the decline. But over the last 6 or so years I somehow see it still out there and as ugly as ever.

I am sorry, but a meme of Obama that makes him look like he just stepped out of Africa is racist and is used to stoke the fear in those that are ignorant

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Bundy was born ignorant and has been losing ground ever since. on 04/25/2014 10:30:36 MDT Print View

It's unavoidable for Obama to say things that critics will say "is playing the race card" so he shouldn't worry about it

And same thing vice versa for Republicans


Bundy is sure enjoying all this attention. Finally, someone is listening to all his crazy talk : )

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
It's high time for some updated memes around here! on 04/25/2014 19:16:59 MDT Print View

1

“They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never learned how to pick cotton," Bundy said. "And I’ve often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy? They didn’t get no more freedom. They got less freedom.”

Edited by xnomanx on 04/25/2014 19:19:24 MDT.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: It's high time for some updated memes around here! on 04/25/2014 20:23:12 MDT Print View

Aw c'mon, Craig. Them's The Guardians of the Republic you're dissin'. Show a little respect for those guys. They're all that's standing between us freedom lovin' 'Mericans and the Fascists in Washington and Godless Kommies in Russia.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: It's high time for some updated memes around here! on 04/25/2014 20:44:16 MDT Print View

In all fairness, the Oath Keepers did say that they reject this statement and the values expressed in it. I find it deeply troubling that people wouldn't distance themselves as far as possible as quickly as possible from a human that thinks like that.
How they want to proceed, with this being all about Bundy and yet not about Bundy at all is going to be an interesting tightrope walk to see them navigate. I'll certainly leave the sad apologist arguments for someone else to make.

The whole affair is just flat out bizarre, the sort of thing that leaves me wondering if I should be laughing or crying. It seems we have so many people shouting in echo chambers that nobody can tell up from down anymore.

I give up.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: It's high time for some updated memes around here! on 04/25/2014 21:04:24 MDT Print View

In fairness to supporters, the racist statements have been public only recently.

Although other groups that advocate the federal government shouldn't have anything but minimal power also have racist ideas, like the John Birch Society.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Who's the REAL racist here.....? on 04/26/2014 02:57:12 MDT Print View

"Matthew said he would go down there with his gun so your comment would be applicable to him "

I never said that, Jerry. Not once. In all honesty, though, I would gladly have gone there to help if he had been closer than 1000 miles away.

As for the racist angle the media and liberals have jumped on in this story, it seems to me Bundy is trying to draw an analogy to being on government assistance and the fact that it is just like slavery to some. They are dependent on it. It's a form of indentured servitude. I also agree with that.
Is Bundy a racist or were some of his comments taken out of context or twisted around? Let's ask his bodyguard (an Oathkeeper) like CNN did (yeah, Ken, they were race baiting just like you keep trying to do here. Maybe you should apply there?), who just happens to have a very dark complexion...

Video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCto_bGIT2o

bg

Text:
CNN REPORTER: You’re protecting this man and he’s wondering whether African-Americans would be better off as slaves. How does that strike you?

JASON BULLOCK, BODYGUARD FOR CLIVEN BUNDY: It doesn’t strike me any kind of way. This is still the same old Mr. Bundy I met from the first day of all this happening.

CNN REPORTER: But aren’t those offensive comments to you

BULLOCK: Not at all.

CNN REPORTER: Not offensive?

BULLOCK: Because Mr. Bundy is not a racist. Ever since I’ve been here he’s treated me with nothing but hospitality. He’s pretty much treated me like his own family. …

BULLOCK: I would take a bullet for that man, if need be. I look up to him just like I do my own grandfather.

CNN REPORTER: Why?

BULLOCK: Because I believe in his cause and after having met Mr. Bundy a few times, I have a really good feel about him and I’m a pretty good judge of character.


How about we ask the retired Marine, and Iraq war veteran, who was there helping protect him,who wrote an open letter defending Mr. Bundy after the media got ahold of the "racist" (or just true?) statements. This former Marine also might be a "person of color":

mb

Open letter from former Marine:
"The media distorts information to the point of social division. This is a photo of myself and the resilient, often charismatic, and maybe not so tactful Cliven Bundy. He’s a cowboy and a helluva family man, not an orator.
One thing he definitely isn’t – a racist. I found his comments to not only be NOT racist, but his own view of his experiences. Who the heck are we to determine another man’s perspective on the world around him?! Just because Picasso’s view of the world was abstract, does it negate the fact that his art was genuine?
Furthermore, if you take the time to do your own research, you’ll find that his statements about some black Americans actually hold weight. He posed a hypothetical question. He said, “I wonder IF” … Hell, I’m black and I often wonder about the same about the decline of the black family.
Bottom line is that we are all slaves in this waning republic, no matter our skin color. Mr. Bundy could have used any racial demographic as an example: Native Americans on reservations, whites in trailer parks, etc. He noticed the crippling effects of receiving government “assistance” and the long term result of accepting handouts.
It’s not progress at all. I challenge Sean Hannity, Rand Paul, and others to read my comment and reconsider their position in this matter. Individual liberties are at stake here, yours and mine. THAT is the issue.
Don’t let the liberal media and ignoramuses like Glenn Beck and that weasel Harry Reid make you lose sight of the real issue here: The federal government is a burgeoning behemoth and a bully on a once constitutional playground.I sincerely hope you real patriots out there who can see through the smoke.
Semper Fidelis"


Basically, the only people bringing up race are the Liberals (Ken's always the first here to do it) who are trying very hard to keep their modern day plantations stocked with low information minority voters. Where is Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson when it comes to the fact that 78% of Planned Parenthood's are purposely placed in minority (black and latino) inner city neighborhoods? Did you know that the founder of Planned Parenthood, Margaret Sanger, was a devout racist (FOR REAL!) who created the Negro Project designed to sterilize unknowing black women and others she deemed as undesirables of society? The founder of Planned Parenthood said, "Colored people are like human weeds and are to be exterminated." Is her vision being fulfilled today? Why does no one say anything about that? Where's the media outrage? There is ethnic genocide going on right in our very own country and they don't care...why? Because they are lying to and using the very people they are supposedly trying to help and have gotten very rich in the process. Any person of color who disagrees is immediately branded an "Uncle Tom", when in reality, it is the Sharptons and Jacksons who have sold out and should be called out as the REAL Uncle Toms.

Another thing we need to remember is that it's an old cowboy today, but it might be YOU or me tomorrow. Would you feel differently then? The Oathkeepers would not. They do not care what political party you belong to. Just like the military. They would be there for you and would lay down their lives to protect you and your God given rights (they were given by God, and only affirmed by our Constitution and Bill Of Rights. The government CANNOT take them away).

Edited by bigfoot2 on 04/26/2014 03:41:49 MDT.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Mormons on 04/26/2014 03:25:41 MDT Print View

"Typical hypocrite Mormon who doesn't pay his taxes like honest people do. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, (The Mormons) claim to belief in 14 Articles of Faith. In fact, on their official website www.mormon.org they post these 14 beliefs or articles of faith as they call them. The 12th article states, "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law." Now this ignorant Bundy guy thinks he is above the law and doesn't have to pay his tax, I think that makes him a thief, a liar, and nowhere near a hero.

He is also a racist "

Scott, by your statements above it's clear that you hate Mormons. It's also clear that it's YOU who is the hypocrite racist here. I, personally, think that Mormonism is a cult. I also believe that there should be freedom from religious persecution from people like you and that people should be free to worship, or not, whatever way they want. So did the founders. That's why it's #1 on the constitutional amendment list, buddy. You should try reading it sometime.

Edited by bigfoot2 on 04/26/2014 03:33:23 MDT.

Ryan Smith
(ViolentGreen) - M

Locale: Southeast
Just an idiot on 04/26/2014 07:04:09 MDT Print View

Bundy's rant didn't strike me as racist by how I typically think of it, only extremely stupid. African Americans were better off as slaves because they could grow turnips with their families. Really?? First of all, most states had laws against slaves growing their own food. Plus, all that sounds nice except that the child mortality rate for slaves was nearly 70%, and the women often faced a constant threat of sexual abuse. Oh yeah, and they might just sell one of your children tomorrow. Sorry about that. Sounds like a great time that people are jumping to get back to.

If someone is thinking that African Americans were better off as slaves, they're an idiot, probably not a slow speaking cowboy racist. Although the two aren't mutually exclusive. It literally blows my mind that people defend this guy.

Ryan

Edited by ViolentGreen on 04/26/2014 07:16:52 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Who's the REAL racist here.....? on 04/26/2014 09:44:27 MDT Print View

"Matthew said he would go down there with his gun so your comment would be applicable to him "

I never said that, Jerry. Not once. In all honesty, though, I would gladly have gone there to help if he had been closer than 1000 miles away.


There! You said it again! "I would gladly have gone there to help..."


And sorry, there's no defending his comments. The only thing you can say is they're racist idiotic comments and then don't say anything for a while.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: It's high time for some updated memes around here! on 04/26/2014 09:54:21 MDT Print View

Or a link:

http://townhall.com/columnists/johnhawkins/2013/03/26/25-examples-of-liberal-racism-in-quotes-n1549044/page/full

This crap goes both ways.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Mormons on 04/26/2014 10:04:13 MDT Print View

"It's also clear that it's YOU who is the hypocrite racist here. I, personally, think that Mormonism is a cult."

Another two, adjacent, self inconsistent sentances : )

The LDS and Catholic churches are both good and bad.

Most Mormons are just normal, hard working, married to one person of opposite sex people. At least the ones I've worked with.

I don't feel right about thinking that someone that has a different religion than me should change. If it works for them, great. If I, hypothetically, changed their mind to believe what I believe, who knows what the unintended consequences would be.

Interesting that established Christian religious people feel so threatened by a new Christian religion.

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
Re: Re: Mormons on 04/26/2014 10:22:50 MDT Print View

That's because Christians don't consider Mormons Christian. They use the Book of Mormon. Adding to the bible kind of kicks them out of the club.

That said I don't consider them a cult. I consider them another religion. Just like Islam.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: It's high time for some updated memes around here! on 04/26/2014 10:25:52 MDT Print View

"http://townhall.com/columnists/johnhawkins/2013/03/26/25-examples-of-liberal-racism-in-quotes-n1549044/page/full"

A lot of those were taken out of context

Like Harry Reid said Obama has light skin and no accent, because many people won't vote for a black person that has dark skin and talks with acent. When considering who to support, you have to consider all the factors that affect their chance of being elected.


But what about Malcolm X and Elijah Muhammad and Muhamed Ali? They said things that seem horrible. Not "out of context". Hard to make any sense of it. Except that the slavery and racism that preceeded their comments was so horrible that I can see how this was a result.


Maybe it's time for us to move on. Even if "blacks are lazy" (or whatever Bundy said) it's because of history. Maybe affirmitive action should be based on economic condition because there are many white people that have been left behind also.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Mormons on 04/26/2014 10:29:18 MDT Print View

"That's because Christians don't consider Mormons Christian. They use the Book of Mormon. Adding to the bible kind of kicks them out of the club.

That said I don't consider them a cult. I consider them another religion. Just like Islam."

But do established relgions say that Islam is a cult?

Muslims and Christians don't get along because they're competing with each other? I guess same thing with Mormons.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Bundy......not the sharpest tool in the shed, but he still deserves a place in the tool box. on 04/26/2014 10:53:20 MDT Print View

""Matthew said he would go down there with his gun so your comment would be applicable to him "

I never said that, Jerry. Not once. In all honesty, though, I would gladly have gone there to help if he had been closer than 1000 miles away.


There! You said it again! "I would gladly have gone there to help..."

But I never said i'd take a gun...that might get me in trouble with the BLM, NSA, IRS, State Department, CIA, FBI, OSHA, Dept. Of "Homeland" Security, the Food and Drug Administration, the US Post Office, National Weather Service, etc....all of which have bought a sh!t ton of ammo the last few years! ;)

""It's also clear that it's YOU who is the hypocrite racist here. I, personally, think that Mormonism is a cult."

Another two, adjacent, self inconsistent sentances : )"

Not at all, Jerry. Just because I believe the Mormons are a cult does not alter the fact that they have a protected right to worship that way, regardless of how I personally feel about them.


"And sorry, there's no defending his comments. The only thing you can say is they're racist idiotic comments and then don't say anything for a while."

I disagree. I was not defending the content of Bundy's comments, only trying to clarify them. Do I agree with what he said...not really. I think he could have made his point a bit more eloquently, but like the guy said in his article, Bundy's an old cowboy, not a master orator. He is free to speak his mind, though, and we should defend his right to do so, regardless of where we stand on the issue.

"Bundy's rant didn't strike me as racist by how I typically think of it, only extremely stupid. African Americans were better off as slaves because they could grow turnips with their families. Really?? First of all, most states had laws against slaves growing their own food. Plus, all that sounds nice except that the child mortality rate for slaves was nearly 70%, and the women often faced a constant threat of sexual abuse. Oh yeah, and they might just sell one of your children tomorrow. Sorry about that. Sounds like a great time that people are jumping to get back to.

If someone is thinking that African Americans were better off as slaves, they're an idiot, probably not a slow speaking cowboy racist. Although the two aren't mutually exclusive. It literally blows my mind that people defend this guy.

Ryan"

Ryan, I agree 100% with what you said here about the slaves topic. But don't confuse the issue that people might be defending Bundy, not because they agree with his statements, but because his rights he was exercising were being threatened. Basically, that was the point of the Marine's article he wrote. We might not agree with what he says, but he has a right to say it. Know what I mean?

Edited by bigfoot2 on 04/26/2014 11:20:18 MDT.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Time to move on. on 04/26/2014 10:58:58 MDT Print View

""http://townhall.com/columnists/johnhawkins/2013/03/26/25-examples-of-liberal-racism-in-quotes-n1549044/page/full"

A lot of those were taken out of context

Like Harry Reid said Obama has light skin and no accent, because many people won't vote for a black person that has dark skin and talks with acent. When considering who to support, you have to consider all the factors that affect their chance of being elected.


But what about Malcolm X and Elijah Muhammad and Muhamed Ali? They said things that seem horrible. Not "out of context". Hard to make any sense of it. Except that the slavery and racism that preceeded their comments was so horrible that I can see how this was a result.


Maybe it's time for us to move on. Even if "blacks are lazy" (or whatever Bundy said) it's because of history. Maybe affirmitive action should be based on economic condition because there are many white people that have been left behind also."


Ummm....i'm not sure how to respond to this, Jerry. You're finally making sense. Did hell freeze over? I actually am in agreement with what you said. :) Affirmative Action, by definition, is in itself, racist. I totally agree it should be based on something other than skin color.

Edited by bigfoot2 on 04/26/2014 11:08:24 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Time to move on. on 04/26/2014 14:05:52 MDT Print View

If people really believed affirmitive action should be based on economic condition rather than skin color, they would then push some programs to do that.

Instead, conservative leaders also want to cut any programs to help people in a difficult economic condition.

It would be more honest if conservative leaders said they want to cut programs for regular people and keep programs to help wealthy people and corporations, rather than the B.S. talk about affirmitive action discriminating based on skin color.

Scott Jones
(Endeavor) - M
Bundy was born ignorant and has been losing ground ever since. on 04/26/2014 14:49:25 MDT Print View

Fun to watch right wing cowards like Sean Hannity and Rand Paul backing away from Cliven Bundy. It is entertaining and rather comedic. Now they want to talk about other issues...........

Cliven is a tax cheat and a racist, nothing more, end of story.

Ryan Smith
(ViolentGreen) - M

Locale: Southeast
Re: Bundy......not the sharpest tool in the shed, but he still deserves a place in the tool box. on 04/26/2014 21:55:16 MDT Print View

"Ryan, I agree 100% with what you said here about the slaves topic. But don't confuse the issue that people might be defending Bundy, not because they agree with his statements, but because his rights he was exercising were being threatened. Basically, that was the point of the Marine's article he wrote. We might not agree with what he says, but he has a right to say it. Know what I mean?"

Matthew,

Help me out. Which of Bundy's rights are being threatened in this whole thing? I've read similar statements but have yet to see it spelled out. I'm not seeing it so far. Open to considering that side of it though.

Ryan

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Bundy......A True American Hero? on 04/28/2014 00:08:27 MDT Print View

"Matthew,

Help me out. Which of Bundy's rights are being threatened in this whole thing? I've read similar statements but have yet to see it spelled out. I'm not seeing it so far. Open to considering that side of it though.

Ryan"



Hey, Ryan, good question.
The way I see Bundy's argument is, in the Constitution of the United States of America, government owned land is relegated to the 10 square mile area of Washington, DC as well as it's outposts and military bases. So, if that's the case, and the land is public, then the right to manage diverts back to Nevada. It's unconstitutional in all aspects. Should Bundy pay the fees? Yes, no,maybe, but it sure would help his case in the court of public opinion. As for his rights being directly violated, remember that the BLM set up two "free speech zones" a half mile apart, that protesters were to stay in, each holding only around 10 people at a time. Hmmm...I thought our whole damn country was a "free speech zone" guaranteed by our Constitution? On this, we can all thank the Bush administration, who started the "free speech zone" thing (it's now even spread to college campuses...really?).

1

Also, on a side note, Hairy Reid's son is trying to close a deal with a Chinese solar power company to put in a solar farm on the very land the BLM is kicking Bundy off of. Turns out that Reid's former campaign manager also is heading up the BLM in Nevada. Strange set of coincidences, huh? Some protecting habitat eh? Fact is politicians have used environmentalism for decades as a tool of seizing land and enriching themselves and their families.

Edited by bigfoot2 on 04/28/2014 12:40:40 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Bundy......A True American Hero? on 04/28/2014 07:22:36 MDT Print View

Do you think Constitution says federal government can only own 10 square miles in D.C., military bases, and outposts?

Do you think if the Supremes make a decision about what's constitutional, then that's what's constitutional?

I hope this is just a fringe interpretation that 99% of the people shake their heads at.

. Kirby
(Kirby805) - F
Case Closed on 04/28/2014 08:28:14 MDT Print View

There is a picture of Bundy with his arm around a dude with a dark complexion. Case closed, liberals. /thread

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Bundy......A True American Hero? on 04/28/2014 11:39:33 MDT Print View

Jerry...I never said I agreed with Bundy's interpretation. I do not. I was just trying to explain his position as I understood it to be. On the other hand, I disagree with many Supreme Court decisions. The SC is not the end of an issue. If they rule in favor of something that is unconstitutional, it might then be legal, but will not change the fact of it's unconstitutionality. Just because something becomes the "law of the land" does not mean it's then set in stone forever. Laws can always be changed or eliminated. It's up to the American people, ultimately, to decide this.

Edited by bigfoot2 on 04/28/2014 11:41:31 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Bundy......A True American Hero? on 04/28/2014 18:23:39 MDT Print View

If "the Supremes" say something, it's consititutional, by definition

I don't like how they're eliminating all the regulations on political donation (bribes) but that's how it is

If we don't like it, we can pass a constitutional ammendment or quit electing Republican Presidents that keep nominating these wacko Supreme Court Justices

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Bundy in DANGER? on 04/28/2014 22:00:39 MDT Print View

"Fun to watch right wing cowards like Sean Hannity and Rand Paul backing away from Cliven Bundy. It is entertaining and rather comedic. Now they want to talk about other issues..........."

Yeah, Scott, just like when the Democrats dropped ol' Anthony Weiner like a hot potato, right? Don't hear many of you sheeple talking about Carlos Danger at all, now. Why is that, Scott?

cd

Edited by bigfoot2 on 04/28/2014 22:01:49 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Bundy in DANGER? on 04/28/2014 22:18:08 MDT Print View

What's funny about Weiner is someone asked if he had relations with many women, and he said that it wasn't more than 6 or 8 (something like that, I forget just what he said). He didn't realize that was an absurd think to say.

Kind of like when he was first asked about the picture he didn't say it wasn't him, he said it could have been photoshopped. Again, he didn't realize that was like admitting it.

Funny how sometimes a person is just on a different planet from the rest of us.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Bundy in DANGER? on 04/29/2014 13:26:22 MDT Print View

yeah Matthew...those damn libs are such hypocrites right. Don't worry, elections are coming and more Dems will be in office in the House

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Bundy in DANGER? on 04/29/2014 17:52:11 MDT Print View

"Funny how sometimes a person is just on a different planet from the rest of us."

Doesn't that apply to just about all politicians?

Ryan Smith
(ViolentGreen) - M

Locale: Southeast
Re: Bundy in DANGER? on 04/29/2014 19:42:02 MDT Print View

Speaking of ol' Carlos Danger - I dare any of you to watch this video and not laugh hysterically. Gets me every time.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjiSm4ZPVKM

Ryan

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Delusions... on 04/30/2014 06:48:08 MDT Print View

"yeah Matthew...those damn libs are such hypocrites right. Don't worry, elections are coming and more Dems will be in office in the House"

""Funny how sometimes a person is just on a different planet from the rest of us.""

Boy, do those two quotes just fit together perfectly, or what? LOL. I wouldn't put any money on the Democrats this year, Ken. You're likely to lose it all if you do. Here...read this...(it's from your liberal NPR, so even you should agree with it)...

http://www.npr.org/2014/02/06/272359784/2014-senate-campaigns

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Delusions... on 04/30/2014 07:11:25 MDT Print View

But it's all about timing

The Obamacare demonization frenzy is likely to fade. The country will not be consumed by hellfire as predicted. Everyone will continue to get healthcare.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Clippers owner on 04/30/2014 17:25:49 MDT Print View

I like the other statement by the Clippers owner

He didn't understand why those black players weren't more grateful because he gave them cars and food and houses...

The racism is associated with the ideas of the 0.001% that have an unrealistic opinion of how great they are and how stupid and lazy the rest of us are and we should be greatful if they toss off a few crumbs

Actually, if the vast majority of the country is contributing and being rewarded, we'll all be better off, including the richest people

Randy Welch
(Sage) - M
Harry Reids involvement in this?..Chinese energy company?...fracking?...none, never happened. on 04/30/2014 22:21:07 MDT Print View

http://www.snopes.com/politics/conspiracy/nevada.asp

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/apr/24/blog-posting/did-sen-harry-reid-drive-standoff-bundy-ranch-pers/

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Harry Reids involvement in this?..Chinese energy company?...fracking?...none, never happened. on 04/30/2014 22:34:26 MDT Print View

It's a plot by Obama and Holder to take our guns. Instigate an uprising, then they'll use that as an excuse.

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
Well on 04/30/2014 22:59:16 MDT Print View

News recently came out showing more on Obama and the Benghazi coverup. So yeah, conspiracies. Not all that out there.

Randy Welch
(Sage) - M
It's cuz' Obama on 04/30/2014 23:13:37 MDT Print View

Can never get enough of that Benghazi. Well, now that I think about it...maybe Chemtrails. Benghazi or Chemtrails?...Whatever, doesn't matter, it's all cuz of Obama....whatever it is, it's cuz of Obama. Oh and BTW....BENGHAZI!!.....Benghazi, Benghazi, Benghazi.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: It's cuz' Obama on 04/30/2014 23:19:18 MDT Print View

This poster (first two posts...) sounds very familiar. Looking to stir up some more.

Randy Welch
(Sage) - M
It's a conspiracy within a conspiracy...man. on 04/30/2014 23:46:33 MDT Print View

Actually Katharina, I've been a member for sometime. I've been quiet here and with exception to this thread, I'll probably remain so. I'm just amazed at what some people will allow themselves to believe. The stuff I've read here reads like material ripped straight from an Alex Jones show...it's hilarious, idiotic but hilarious.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Well on 05/01/2014 07:28:31 MDT Print View

Yeah, there are some emails from a political person in the administration

they talked about the provocative video and to use that as an explanation for the violence

but they weren't specifically talking about Benghazi, but middle east in general, which is why it wasn't released earlier

the video did precipitate violence in the region

and it would be better for Obama's re-election if the violence was caused by the video rather than policy in general. That's what a political person should do, help Obama get elected.

I saw documentary about Jimmy Carter. They seperated policy and political people. Then Reagan got elected. And it's been downhill from there. Political people - don't seperate political and policy, they're related!!!

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
jerry on 05/01/2014 09:56:09 MDT Print View

terrible spin. You forgive Obama murder and cover ups.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: jerry on 05/01/2014 10:00:32 MDT Print View

There have been terrorist attacks at embassies during every recent president

The right wing has this strategy to "investigate" liberals as an attempt to gain political power

I can't believe you've fallen for their evil plan : )

My conclusion about Nixon and Watergate is to not break law, break into opponents office and get political info, and try to cover it up.

The right wing's conclusion is that if you "investigate" your political opponent you can gain political power

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: jerry on 05/01/2014 14:36:03 MDT Print View

More interesting side notes about our terrorist patriots


http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2014/04/30/back-at-the-bundy-ranch-its-oath-keepers-vs-militiamen-as-wild-rumors-fly/

Lol.......time to sit back and have some popcorn and watch the usual

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
Re: Re: jerry on 05/01/2014 14:40:27 MDT Print View

"There have been terrorist attacks at embassies during every recent president"

Did other recent president's staffs run around blaming youtube videos and denying they were terrorist attacks to help themselves look good?

Did other president's have the chance to help out sat around doing nothing?

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Re: jerry on 05/01/2014 14:52:54 MDT Print View

You might want to look at all the attacks that happened under Bush's watch....sigh. And please don't respond with Afghanistan and/or Iraq.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: jerry on 05/01/2014 15:12:00 MDT Print View

The inflamatory video wasn't until the Obama presidentcy so it couldn't have affected previous presidencies

During the Reagan presidency, they blew up the Lebanon embassy killing hundreds of U.S. marines, then we pulled out. I can't imagine what the right wing crazies would say if Obama did that.

Hilary asked for more funding for security at embassies but Rs and Ds cut funding. Why don't they investigate themselves?

Rather than just having strategy to hurt opponenets, why don't the Republicans find some things they can compromise on?

Like immigration reform. Boehner and Ryan said they were willing to do this, then they had a private meeting, then they said they couldn't "trust Obama to enforce border security". What could they say, "my right wing crazy members won't go along with any reform"?

Obama has increased border security so that is a bogus argument. What's funny is, there are now serious discussions about whether Obama can be trusted to enforce border secuirty. I feel like screaming at the TV - "PEOPLE, THAT'S JUST A BOGUS RATIONALIZATION BECAUSE THEY CAN'T ADMIT THEIR FELLOW MEMBERS ARE CRAZY!!!"

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
admit it on 05/01/2014 15:20:09 MDT Print View

Can't you just admit your boy in the oval office had his people running around lying to cover his ass? The administration knew it wasn't about the video and they still lied about it to keep from looking bad at a critical time.

Admit he could have sent in help and left our guys to die.

You can run off on tangents all day. It doesn't change the facts. We aren't talking about borders or immigration.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: admit it on 05/01/2014 15:31:14 MDT Print View

#1 - it's inappropriate to call a black man a boy

#2 - his people are all about politics and will try to say things that will help him get re-elected. So is anyone that ever gets re-elected.

#3 - there was a horrible video and Muslims protesting in Egypt. Reasonable for the Obama people to consider this. Them condeming the video may have reduced violence. That's what's called dimplomacy.

#4 - I don't think there was anyone that could have helped. How long was it from when the Benghazi people sent out the word to when they were killed? I have heard military people say there wasn't enough time to send help.

#5 - borders and immigration are a good example of where the Republicans could find compromise but instead have chosen to just make up stuff against Obama that they think may "stick on the wall"

You reasonable Republicans out there, take back your party from these crazies!

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
wow on 05/01/2014 15:42:20 MDT Print View

1. Get a life. I called your candidate "your boy" as in the guy you constantly support regardless of the facts/issues. Please quit race baiting like Ken.

2. Right....his people. Like his closest people acted without his knowledge or approval or okay.

3. BS. That is the issue and the lies have been proven to be just that.

4. There was plenty of time to try and respond. Lovell "He later said the military "could have made a response of some sort." Lovell, who was stationed in Germany during the attack, made clear repeatedly that the military was waiting for clearance from the State Department to intervene in Benghazi."

5. irrelevant here.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: admit it on 05/01/2014 15:45:22 MDT Print View

Jerry...if this was Facebook I would have "liked" both of your posts. Well done

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: wow on 05/01/2014 18:04:54 MDT Print View

1 - Go ahead and call black men boys. I guess our generation will have to die off before we go one level closer to accepting all people.

2 - His political people act with his knowledge, of course.

3 - Do you deny that there were people in Egypt protesting that video? I don't think there's any controversy about that. Then I think it was reasonable of people to think maybe there was similar protesting in Benghazi. And if the Obama people publically condemmed the video, maybe it would tend to dampen the violence.

4 - I don't remember the source, but I thought the military people said there wasn't enough time. Of course there are many military (and non military) people with different opinions. The people in charge in Germany would be good to listen to.

5 - I think that's exactly the point here. The right wingers are just opposed to liberals and think the best strategy is to look at any event and figure out how they can blame it on Obama, rather than try to find compromise.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Plenty to blame. on 05/01/2014 18:15:22 MDT Print View

As far as foreign policy I think Romney would have been even worse.....,but this administration is shameful nonetheless. The less of two evils isn't even close to good enough for me. This administration is now responsible for starting a new Cold War with Russia, without a shred of a debate. To me this is just one of many international disasters that will haunt us for years.



http://m.thenation.com/article/179579-cold-war-against-russia-without-debate


Just like republicans should reign in their nutty extremists, the left needs to reign in it's warmongers, among others.

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
Re: Re: wow on 05/01/2014 20:13:58 MDT Print View

1. Kiss my ass Jerry. It is only YOUR generation that considers that racist. I grew up calling my friends "my boys". It doesn't matter what color they were. I didn't even consider it a racist thing until a left win extremist got all puffed up at the chance to scream racist.

2. Exactly

3. NOBODY believed the video nonsense. The military personnel (that report to Obama) said it came up and was immediately dismissed. Quit reaching - it just makes you look foolish.

4. Yep...what I said.

5. Jerry, nobody would blame Obama for a terrorist attack happening on his watch. Some question his lack of reaction. Many question his administration's lies about what happened. Many continue to question it and he is still covering it up and pretending he didn't know. That is the issue. We don't need compromise. What happened to the promised transparency?

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: wow on 05/01/2014 20:18:40 MDT Print View

5.......What happened to the promised transparency?


This has been the least transparent administration on record. Also, the worst as far as freedom of the press.



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/10/obama-press-freedom-cpj_n_4073037.html


http://www.democracynow.org/blog/2014/3/27/barack_obama_the_least_transparent_president

Edited by Kat_P on 05/01/2014 20:34:30 MDT.

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Bundy......A True American Hero? on 05/01/2014 21:46:42 MDT Print View

I don't care what all of you think of him, Bundy is still my hero
A. Bundy

Scott Jones
(Endeavor) - M
Bundy "The High Plains Moocher" on 05/01/2014 22:04:56 MDT Print View

Paul Krugman puts the final nail in the mythical idea this jackass Cliven Bundy is a hero.

High Plains Moocher

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: wow on 05/01/2014 22:12:02 MDT Print View

"Kiss my ass Jerry. It is only YOUR generation that considers that racist."

I've never spent much time where there was a lot of racism, but I've seen documentaries where white people called blacks, "boys", because they dared to look at a white women, or went into a whites only establishment. Lynched the black "boys". The police and judges were party to it. Maybe that was all fiction.

I'm just incredulous that anyone would call a black man a boy

And even more incredulous that someone would say "a left win extremist got all puffed up at the chance to scream racist"

I think we've taken that as far as we can


Looking at "2012 Benghazi Attack" in wikipedia, not always a perfect source but usually fairly objective. They have sources for all there statements:

"In Egypt, 2000 Salafist activists protested against the film Innocence of Muslims at 5pm EET (11am EDT) at the US embassy in Cairo.[41]"

This was just before Benghazi - so reasonable to think Behghazi was more of the same


"The attackers stated they were acting in response to the movie.[57]"

So even if the attack wasn't primarily because of that movie, there were news reports that it was.


The attack started at 9:40PM. At about 10PM "The Regional Security Office sounded the alarm and placed calls to the Benghazi CIA annex and the embassy in Tripoli, saying, "We're under attack, we need help, please send help now..." " At about the same time, the ambassador called someone.

A CIA team attempted a rescue but discovered people were dead. Unclear whether they actually saw the ambassador's body. Got back to their annex at 11:50PM. That was almost 2 hours after the attack was reported.

The CIA team was already in Benghazi. Any other group would have taken much longer.

And saying that Obama instructed any rescuer to abort is untrue, because a CIA team did attempt a rescue. I guess Obama didn't get to them : )


Any blame has to be for not having more security, having U.S. people there at all, getting envolved in Lybia civil war,...

As with all of these incidents, we should figure out how to avoid in the future, not find someone to lynch just to feel better. And especially not take advantage to politically attack your opponent. That is disrespectful to the people that have sacrificed.


You just can't let loose of the idea that Obama is responsible for this. No facts will change your mind. It's called "cognitive dissonance".


I think the Republicans that keep screaming about this know it's total B.S., just a strategy for "getting" Obama and the Democrats.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Plenty to blame. on 05/01/2014 22:17:14 MDT Print View

Well said Kat.

I hope the Ukraine cools down after a while and doesn't turn into a "cold war"

Maybe it would help if we acknowledged the Russians have some legitimate gripes. Maybe we can reach some compromise.

Call me "Polyanna"

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
Re: Re: Re: Re: wow on 05/01/2014 23:11:47 MDT Print View

I called your Democrat "your boy" Jerry. Race is immaterial. I have a liberal friend up here. I routinely refer to local democrats as "his boy" or "his girl". You are looking to get offended for nothing. Race Baiter.

Wiki is hardly unbiased.

I can't believe you are still arguing that it was the video. The military command over Africa has says it isn't. They dismissed suggestions at the time they arose. You are so blinded it isn't even funny anymore.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: wow on 05/02/2014 07:21:39 MDT Print View

I don't call any adults, boys, because of the historical context of treatment of black people, sort of like not using the "N" word.

Occasionally, I'll tell someone "kiss my ass", but it has to be in person with someone who knows I'm just kidding. On the internets, it's too easy to misinterpret even innocuous words.

You just state things without any sources. Or, when you do give sources, the source usually says just the opposite or has information supporting both sides, you just pull out what you want to justify your screwed up opinion.

I suspect in person we'de get along just fine. Some conflicting ideas but we could civily agree to disagree. I think we're both hard working people that want the best for everyone.

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
here on 05/02/2014 09:40:30 MDT Print View

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2014/05/01/benghazi-testimony-africom-general/8554559/

Right there Jerry. Not a reaction to the video. Nobody would have ever considered it a reaction to videos if the Obama administration hadn't gone out of their way to paint it as such.

"Blue, you're my boy!"

Jerry, I have never in my life seen a person call somebody a "boy" in a racist way. Sorry, I just don't consider it as such. Before I was born - sure. But in the context the way I used it, it is very clear I'm referring to the guy you support.

I was quite serious in the kiss my ass comment. If you are going to suggest racist motivations behind my comments, you can do just that.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: here on 05/02/2014 10:05:11 MDT Print View

I didn't say you were racist. I think if you did a survey of readers, many people would think that calling a black man "boy" was racist. You can have your meaning of the word and do whatever you wish.


Good source of information

One thing it said was:

"Lovell did not question the Pentagon claim that it could not have scrambled forces in the region quickly enough to have prevented the deaths of the Americans. Lovell said no one at the time of the attack knew how long it would go, so they could not have determined then that there was no use in trying."

That sort of makes your point

Then it goes on to say:

""I did not say we did not try," Lovell said. "What I'm speaking to is that we as a nation need to try to do more, in preparations, so that in the future ... we can support the people and have their backs.""

So, he contradicts what he said previously, that we didn't try. And he makes my point that what we should get out of Benghazi is to learn lessons for the future.

And it makes my point that you pick out "factoids" that confirm your opinion and you ignore others.

I don't see how you can come out of the Benghazi with the idea that Obama should be blamed for it. There have been other, similar incidents in other presidencies and there's plenty of blame to go around for Benghazi.

The Republicans know this but just think this is an opportunity to politically attack Obama which is disrespectful to Ambasador Stevens and other patriotic citizens in other posts.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: here on 05/02/2014 10:07:28 MDT Print View

Race bait.....lol if the shoe fits then.....

The present day Republican party has a lot to answer for. The party of the white and wealthy.

Kat and others....hope much do you know about foreign diplomacy? Arm chair quarterback is what I see here. How in the hell did Obama start a cold war??? Lol

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: here on 05/02/2014 10:24:15 MDT Print View

"Damnant quod non intelligunt" was descriptive, not prescriptive.

Edited by Kat_P on 05/02/2014 13:07:12 MDT.

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
Re: Re: here on 05/02/2014 10:32:17 MDT Print View

"Go ahead and call black men boys. I guess our generation will have to die off before we go one level closer to accepting all people."

Sure you didn't suggest that just a bit there Jerry?

For the last time. I wasn't calling a black man a boy. I was calling the guy you are supporting "your boy". I really don't care a single bit about his race. Never have.

I linked you an article that shows beyond a doubt that the video you keep blaming was dismissed at the highest levels of the African command.

The possible responses and actions that could have been taken have been covered ad nauseum before. You just refuse to believe them.

I don't blame Obama for Benghazi happening. Not all terrorist attacks are preventable. I do see it as a sign that his claimed war on terrorism wasn't going as well as he portrayed. I blame him for the coverup and deflecting attention to a stupid video to keep his image.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: here on 05/02/2014 10:52:44 MDT Print View

"For the last time. I wasn't calling a black man a boy. I was calling the guy you are supporting "your boy". "

You said "your boy". Obama is a black man. Many people would consider that racist. I think us white guys should not use the term "boy" for a black man. No point dragging this out any further...


What's ironic is that you're accusing me of "playing the race card". I'm accusing you of "playing the you're accusing me of being a racist card" : )


"I linked you an article that shows beyond a doubt that the video you keep blaming was dismissed at the highest levels of the African command."

The article said that General Lovell had the opinion that the attack was not because of the video.

There were demonstrations in Egypt because of the video. There were Benghazi attackers that said the attack was because of the video. There were news stories reporting this.

Obama has to consider all sources and make a decision what to do at each moment.

Since there were demonstrations in Egypt because of the video, and possible escalating violence, it was important for Obama to condem the video to reduce possible escalating violence even if he knew Benghazi was not because of the video.

Obama didn't cover anything up, he's answered questions about this all along and has been fairly consistent.

I think the lesson to learn is what Lovell said "What I'm speaking to is that we as a nation need to try to do more, in preparations, so that in the future ... we can support the people and have their backs."

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: Re: Re: here on 05/02/2014 13:00:22 MDT Print View

This is looking less and less like a political discussion and more and more like a four-way abusive relationship.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: here on 05/02/2014 13:01:56 MDT Print View

Four way?

There's Michael and I which makes two...

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
well on 05/02/2014 13:07:03 MDT Print View

I have 3 personalities. So if you can kick in at least some personality, then we can round up to 4. :)

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: here on 05/02/2014 13:09:18 MDT Print View

"This is looking less and less like a political discussion and more and more like a four-way abusive relationship."

There was no interest in a discussion Craig.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: here on 05/02/2014 13:29:21 MDT Print View

"There was no interest in a discussion Craig."

There's nothing to discuss. Investigating Obama over Benghazi is just political.

You're not arguing there's anything to discuss calling black men boys are you? : )

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: here on 05/02/2014 13:40:27 MDT Print View

""There was no interest in a discussion Craig."

There's nothing to discuss. Investigating Obama over Benghazi is just political.

You're not arguing there's anything to discuss calling black men boys are you? : )"




I think anything should and could be discussed. Craig seems to be right in that this just does not seem the right place. I think it has more to do with honesty and intentions then the format. To me nothing is beyond discussion if people want to understand ; we all want to be understood but not enough want to really understand other people.
How can we blame politicians and world leaders if we are not even able to conduct a discussion here? Jerry, you could get your point across about the "boys" without accusing anyone here of ill intent or at the very least give Michael the benefit of the doubt. You keep saying not to keep that subject going....as long as you get the last word in. I can relate to that too..., no worries.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: here on 05/02/2014 14:25:08 MDT Print View

yes, I do like to get the last word in. And I admit to being a know it all.

I'm not saying we shouldn't discuss, just there's no point saying the same thing over and over. Another one of my faults : )

Actually, if I thought anything, it's that's Micheal is playing a little game. Saying something that can be interpretted as racist. If anyone says anything, then he can say they're playing the race card. No big deal. I've said my peace so I don't need to talk about it any more. Unless someone provokes me : )

I just get frustrated at these memes that get spread around, like about Benghazi and Obama. If they keep bringing it up, people might start believing it. Do you think this is a conspiracy worth investigating?

I kind of lean towards your claims that Obama is secretive and not transparent.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: here on 05/02/2014 14:45:30 MDT Print View

The forum police have arrived. ..yea!!

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: here on 05/02/2014 15:38:58 MDT Print View

> The forum police have arrived. ..yea!!

Not yet they haven't.

Cheers

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: here on 05/02/2014 18:09:07 MDT Print View

You're actually reading this Roger?

You must think Americans are nuts : )

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
some kinda special on 05/04/2014 10:52:06 MDT Print View

I cannot imagine voting for this twit....if you did, you should not be allowed to vote

http://dailycurrant.com/2014/05/01/sarah-palin-jesus-fought-for-death-penalty-until-day-he-died/

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: some kinda special on 05/04/2014 10:52:47 MDT Print View

and for those that think toting guns like John Wayne is a good thing

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/05/03/texas-gun-groups-protest-sends-restaurant-employees-fleeing-for-freezer-as-cops-respond/

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: some kinda special on 05/04/2014 14:19:29 MDT Print View

If the Jack 'n the Box employees were allowed to exercise their 2nd Ammendment rights while on the job, they could've also exercised their Texas "stand your ground" rights instead of hiding in the freezer like cowards...

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Re: some kinda special on 05/04/2014 15:45:20 MDT Print View

lol

and that law really stops crime.

David Olsen
(bivysack.com) - F

Locale: Channeled Scablands
Re: some kinda joke on 05/05/2014 10:10:31 MDT Print View

""In ancient Jerusalem crime was rampant. The Romans and their pagan morality wouldn't allow the proper punishment wrongdoers deserve. So Jesus lobbied for capital punishment in order to protect the Christians and the Jews from the Palestinians and other Muslims who were killing people left and right." Sarah Palin

She can't be THAT ignorant. When did Islam start? Hundreds of years AD? Sounds like a fake.

Kind of like this-Brady Fake

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: some kinda joke on 05/05/2014 10:36:46 MDT Print View

And yet both Dems and Reps are funding the treatment of Palestinians just like that...

Scott Jones
(Endeavor) - M
Bundy the Liar on 05/06/2014 23:37:59 MDT Print View

Funny video- The truth wins.
Bundy the Liar