Forum Index » Chaff » ah, pesky government regulations strangling small business!


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Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Nope on 04/14/2014 09:37:12 MDT Print View

:) Ian.
He might sick some thugs on you though. Seems to think that is legit.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: Nope on 04/14/2014 09:39:56 MDT Print View

Yes but can they dance like this...

(Executes flawless Roger Rabbit with seamless transition to running man)

I think not.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Nope on 04/14/2014 09:47:04 MDT Print View

Thanks for lightening this up Ian.
:)

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
Re: Re: One more on regulation on 04/14/2014 10:30:01 MDT Print View

" But when whole policies are designed to keep people poor (minimum wage for example? there is not a single peer-reviewed paper that finds increasing the minimum wage to be overall detrimental to an economy; same for unemployment benefits - paper after paper find them to be one of the most effective simuli a depressed economy has - and yes, I can cite papers if you want me to), and the entire austerity movement in Europe has failed over and over, yet we still feel the need to follow it there and pursue it here.....I'm sorry, that's just not caring; what would you call it?"

Wrong again. The minimum wage studies are at best split. Data hasn't shown a beneficial effect either. And if it is a wash, than why interfere?

Good link: http://www.cepr.net/documents/publications/min-wage-2013-02.pdf

Extending unemployment benefits has also been linked to extending a recession. So you have that on the other side. For every paper you think helps you out, I can show you one on the other side. The socialism/big government method in Europe has led to the need for an austerity method in Europe, and you still want to expand government intervention here?

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: One more on regulation on 04/14/2014 11:40:17 MDT Print View

Germany and Greece would be good examples of what fiscal responsibility vs irresponsibility are all about.
Two years ago Switzerland voted down by referendum (!!) the option to extend vacations for employees; did not seem like the right economic climate for that.


There are plenty of ways to cut spending without taking from the truly needy.

Edited by Kat_P on 04/14/2014 11:48:59 MDT.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Nope on 04/14/2014 11:48:35 MDT Print View

Lol....the usual combatant...m


Grabbing some popcorn and getting ready to read so more Libertarian nonsense

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: One more on regulation on 04/14/2014 12:22:43 MDT Print View

To be clear, I don't think the Republican Party is friendly to small businesses either. Maybe they were at some point, but not now.

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Nope on 04/14/2014 12:38:20 MDT Print View

Ken,

Go to my link. It is pretty unbiased. If you can't say the effects one way or another, and you don't have evidence of a beneficial impact, then why do it?

If you take off your blue lenses you will notice I didn't respond to corporate welfare...because I don't like it either. So to me that issue isn't worth discussing. I address the points where our local PT expert is off base. I will let her tell me the best treatment for PF, but on issues I have a better understanding of, I feel I should comment.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Nope on 04/14/2014 12:43:48 MDT Print View

Michael....The reference about the combatant and the nonesense were directed at me.

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
ok on 04/14/2014 13:02:45 MDT Print View

It's hard to tell with him. I'll let you take the blame/credit for it then!

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: One more on regulation on 04/14/2014 13:40:28 MDT Print View

Interesting paper Micheal. I'm going to have to look at other of their papers. They seem like a non partisan group.

But, the title of the article is "Why Does the Minimum Wage Have No Discernible Effect on Employment?"

They're conclusion is that raising minimum wage doesn't increase unemployment discernibly.

That's consistent with the CBO study that said unemployment would rise 500,000 (0.1% of U.S. population) which Republican politicians quoted, and 16,000,000 people (5% of population) would be raised above poverty level which Democratic politicians mentioned. Funny that each party only mentioned what supported their policies : )

I didn't see anything in that paper about economic effect of raising minimum wage. I'll have to look at their website for other articles.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: One more on regulation on 04/14/2014 13:50:26 MDT Print View

"Germany and Greece would be good examples of what fiscal responsibility vs irresponsibility are all about."

Greece is a good example.

It's common for people to not pay taxes.

Public employees get paid a lot and don't work very hard.

"socialism" run amok - gives the word "socialism" a bad name for sure

One problem is that big banks loaned huge amounts of money to Greece and sold the loans to unsuspecting investors which then blew up. Sort of like zero down payment real estate loans to people that had no jobs which precipitated our 2008 "great recession".

Without the big banks, it would just be a smoldering fire, instead of a forestfire conflagration.

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
Re: Re: Re: Re: One more on regulation on 04/14/2014 14:00:41 MDT Print View

Jerry,

My point is that there is a ton of opinions on both sides. It is generally agreed that is will decrease employment and increase SOME people's wages.

By the way, your take on the 16M is wrong. That is 16M increased wages and of those, 900,000 raised above poverty line.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: One more on regulation on 04/14/2014 14:27:17 MDT Print View

Oh, okay, old age is a bitch, I remembered something correctly : )

They did a meta-analysis of other studies

For example, one study showed that raising minimum wage increased unemployment, but they didn't control for regional differences in employment. The rise in unemplyment was actually due to differences in different regions that had nothing to do with minimum wage.

So then, like you say, people that want to argue that raising minimum wage will increase unemployment will trot out that study and the opposite side a different study...

Now, unless I get bored, I will look for a study that shows the effect on the economy.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
CEPR on 04/14/2014 15:35:56 MDT Print View

A couple of other studies CEPR has done:

Connecticut's paid leave law has not killed jobs like opponents claimed.

After NAFTA, Mexico's economy has been worse than other Latin American countries.

Spain's austerity policies are not effective. "Only increasing demand for goods and services will return the unemployed to work. Generally, this means that the government itself must step up by purchasing domestic goods and hiring the unemployed."

CEOs of big U.S. corporations are paid unfairly large amounts. Their compensation is determined by boards of directors which are selected by the CEOs and are paid handsomely to "look the other way as they pilfer the company."

I think you've found an organization that gets good data to support liberal programs : )

In general, policies supported by Republican politicians are not supported by data.

Michael L
(mpl_35) - MLife

Locale: The Palouse
CEPR on 04/14/2014 16:51:09 MDT Print View

It is a progressive think tank Jerry. Just because one paper I thought showed some relatively unbiased info, doesn't mean I'm buying into EVERYTHING they say!

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: CEPR on 04/14/2014 17:03:24 MDT Print View

ahhh... it's a progressive think tank... I thought so : )

it does seem to ojectively look at data rather than just have some opinion and find studies to support it

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: CEPR on 04/14/2014 17:36:14 MDT Print View

Okay, a couple CEPR articles that say minimum wage doesn't have a negative effect on the economy:

http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/cepr-blog/the-minimum-wage-and-economic-growth

Minimum wage rose with productivity growth 1947 to 1969. Since 1969, inflation adjusted minimum wage has gone down from $9 to $7.25. Productivity has gone from $9 to $16.54.

"How was it decided to break the link between productivity growth and the minimum wage? It is not as though we had a major national debate and it was decided that low-wage workers did not deserve to share in the benefits of economic growth. This was a major policy shift that was put in place with little, if any, public debate."

The right wing "Reagan Revolution" started in 1981 so I can't blame it : )


http://www.cepr.net/index.php/blogs/cepr-blog/minimum-wage-and-poverty

Raising the minimum wage to $10.10 will decrease poverty by 6.8 million people after 1 year.

Hmmm... maybe I'm not so elderly after all and remembered it right in the first place : )


http://www.cepr.net/index.php/publications/reports/affording-health-care-and-education-on-the-minimum-wage

You have to work 923 hours at minimum wage to pay for a year of 4 year public college. That's about half of a full time 2080.

You have to work 2079 hours at minimum wage to pay for a year of family health care insurance. That's full time.

So you could have one full time job to pay for health insurance. Another almost half time to pay for education to get yourself out of this mess. Hard to find time to go to classes and study. Oh well, sleep isn't that important is it? Oh, I forgot about working to pay for food...

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Minimum wage and fairness on 04/14/2014 20:06:19 MDT Print View

I'm sorry, but anyone who works 40 hours a week should not be below the poverty line.

One of the great capitalists of our time, Henry Ford, thought his employees should make enough money to buy one of his cars.

And I become absolutely incensed when full time workers for large corporations are paid so little that they qualify for food stamps and medicaid. That means MY tax dollars subsidize that large corporation, and that makes me angry.

Of course, they may not have enough money to pay their workers a living wage, but they certainly have enough to pay their CEOs and other executives obscene amounts of money. I mean, is there REALLY a difference between making 10 million a year vs 100 million?????? What's the point??

I think THAT is greedy.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Minimum wage and fairness on 04/14/2014 20:34:51 MDT Print View

I agree with some of what you wrote Jennifer.
Here is a something to consider: my daughter works for a great family business in our little town, while going to college. She makes 9 dollars an hour, as she just started a month ago. She has little work experience and is able to get some while learning new skills as well. This business employs some older people that have been there a long time; they have also employed a number of kids that went to the school that is 20 yards from the business. The owner volunteers and teaches cooking and singing at the school. She started a program that got the school in the paper several times. Look it up, Pacific School in Davenport; she started it and has run it for five days a week for many years.They have known my daughter, and some other employees since they were 4 years old.
Besides the fact that these kids on their first job are not really worth 15 dollars, the business would not be able to hire as many workers as they do and they would not be able to pay their older experienced workers quite a bit more than that.
The couple that owns the place is known for their involvement in the community and it would be a shame if they could no longer hire the kids that come from the local school at 9 or 10 dollars an hour.
I just think that there is more to the subject than grown ups needing to make a living wage.

Edited for grammar.

Edited by Kat_P on 04/14/2014 21:09:11 MDT.