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The Grocery Sack Grows Up: A Genealogy of the Modern Ultralight Backpack
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Maia
(maia) - MLife

Locale: Rocky Mountains
The Grocery Sack Grows Up: A Genealogy of the Modern Ultralight Backpack on 04/01/2014 22:46:57 MDT Print View

Companion forum thread to:

The Grocery Sack Grows Up: A Genealogy of the Modern Ultralight Backpack

David Chenault
(DaveC) - BPL Staff - F

Locale: Crown of the Continent
Typo on 04/02/2014 07:39:35 MDT Print View

The above should read that the RayWay strap padding in 5/8" thick.

HK Newman
(hknewman) - MLife

Locale: Western US
Re: The Grocery Sack Grows Up: A Genealogy of the Modern Ultralight Backpack on 04/02/2014 08:08:32 MDT Print View

Great article and interesting thought about Ray's physiology (shoulder musculature) playing a role in his choosing a hipbelt less pack design for plain old backpacking. Think others could go without a hip belt with less weight but there's always that 'bounce'.

Add I remember from Ray Jardine's PCT guide, him writing about hiking along with just one shoulder strap for awhile as a mental picture.

Edited by hknewman on 04/02/2014 08:30:53 MDT.

Ryan Smith
(ViolentGreen) - F

Locale: Southeast
Re: The Grocery Sack Grows Up: A Genealogy of the Modern Ultralight Backpack on 04/02/2014 11:12:01 MDT Print View

Great article David. It has been interesting to watch this transformation both in cottage products and in the BPL forums. The mantra 5 yrs ago was to put up with a little (or a lot!) of discomfort to save 8oz in a pack, but I rarely see that philosophy anymore.

Ryan

Tony Ronco
(tr-browsing) - MLife
"The Grocery Sack Grows Up: A Genealogy of the Modern Ultralight Backpack" on 04/02/2014 12:57:30 MDT Print View

Just a few tid-bits to add to this narrative:

The historical antecedents of a Ray-Way pack can be found decades before Ray popularized it. Packs such as the sew-it-yourself Atom-Wate pack or the Litepac . Both packs were sans hipbelt, both were labeled ultralight. By the way Litepac also had a sew-it-yourself tarp.

The packs that Chuck Kennedy and Fred Williams made for themselves in their Superlight Challenge are much more in line with the more "current" modern thought (and were lighter weight). That was published 10 years before (in 1982) than Jardine's first book (1992). By the way for a sleeping system, Kennedy used a top quilt that zipped into a bottom sleeping pad.

About the same time in 1982 on the commercial offering front, Alpenlite re-branded itself as AlpenLITE and introduced its Superlight Pack Series models that ranged in weight from 10 oz to 24 oz ... models that corresponded to a max carrying capacity of 10 lbs to 30 lbs, with the heaver model having more carrying capacity because of its internal laminated frame to effect hip transfer. Those models have a definite place in the genealogy of modern ultralight packs.

- RE: "Ray Jardine made the first RayWay packs in 1992, for a 1993 Appalachian Trail thruhike1Photos of Ray and Jenny Jardine’s 1993 packs look remarkably like a traditional alpine rucksack: the drawcord top, dual side compression straps ... These packs even had a hipbelt and dual stays"

Just a clarification - Ray didn't make those particular packs. If you read his PCT Hikers Handbook a little more carefully, you'll see those packs were actually commercially sourced internal frames that he "cut and whack" down. He outlines his recommendations of what to do in the Equipment Chapter. Many reflected Jardine's climbing background as many of his recommendation were standard de rigueur for shaving down pack weight (such as eliminating the pack lid). The clearest picture of that pack is where he has on that light blue Campmor Gore-Tex parka.

Ray Jardine was brilliant to market to a group of motivated early adopters (PCT Hikers) among who, he had creditability due to his thru-hiking accomplishments. Later, the ADZPCTKO became a perfect venue to continue the movement among early adopters and served as a starting point to close the gap for the early majority in the backpacking community. Golite also played a critically important role by adopting Ray's designs and then marketing them to the general public. Their efforts (Coup & Kim Coupounas, Golite's founders) were key in raising general awareness about going ultralight to the general backpacking community (and of course, their efforts also raised the awareness of Ray too)

Ray was definitely a driving force in bringing back & promoting self sufficiency. He also had neat design innovations for old school approaches such as all mesh packets on his packs (instead of partial mesh or all fabric pockets; moving the poles to support his tarps outside of the tarp beaks WITHOUT the use of a ridge guyline. And one of his biggest accomplishments of all, was him bringing back quilts as a legitimately viable alternative sleeping system for backpacking (almost 50 years past their "death knell" ... heck, he even made it with yarn ties just like gramma would have done, but utilized Polarguard as an updated innovation). Got to give him both respect and his due! What he's done is impressive. (... But with that said, historically he still was not the genesis of modern ultralight packs).

EDIT: In terms of quilt like designs, it should be acknowledged that there were several designs available on the market that both predate Ray and showed quilt influences. Chuck Kennedy's company Down Home (as mentioned above) produced a system that basically was a top quilt zipped to a bottom pad (with an available modular hood). Marmot also had their Grouse bag which could zipped open like a quilt, then zipped into their Couplet bottom sheet to serve as a couple's top quilt like sleeping system. My wife and I used a modified version of of the Grouse/Couplet system for a long time ... I modified it by remaking the Marmot bottom sheet into a all synthetic sheet (instead of a cotton/poly material that it originally was made of) and added a few obvious features to help with better draft control. But never-the-less, even with all that acknowledged, it was Ray, who was the one went all the way and revived the old school, simple, no bottom sheet quilt for a viable back country sleeping system.

Edited by tr-browsing on 04/07/2014 12:26:42 MDT.

HK Newman
(hknewman) - MLife

Locale: Western US
Re: "The Grocery Sack Grows Up: A Genealogy of the Modern Ultralight Backpack" on 04/02/2014 19:02:59 MDT Print View

Great link Tony.

Regarding the Ray-Way, my thinking is that he "popularized" ultralight backpacking. Before he did his thru hikes, I saw references to Ultimate Direction in BP mag doing fastbacks in the 80's. Then Grandma Gatewood and Earl Shaffer for minimalistic gear on the AT up to and into the 1960's. BP did a page w/photos on the latter - showed an old Army ruck sans frame, but here's an article after he passed (link - gear talk spread throughout article)

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/12/us/earl-shaffer-first-hike-length-appalachian-trail-both-directions-dies-83.html

ADD I did not get interested in backpacking until Dec 1995, era of the "bombproof" gear.

Edited by hknewman on 04/02/2014 21:33:19 MDT.

Rex Sanders
(Rex) - M

Locale: Central California Coast
Re: AlpenLITE Superlight packs on 04/02/2014 21:14:19 MDT Print View

Alpenlite re-branded itself as AlpenLITE and introduced its Superlight Pack Series models that ranged in weight from 10 oz to 24 oz

My all-time favorite pack was the 24 oz AlpenLITE pack. Just big enough, just enough features, comfortable with 30 pounds ... And not a gram of silnylon, cuben, or titanium to be found. Just great design.

Too bad various parts rotted and fell off after 30 years. I had to throw it away.

Lots of mainstream lightweight backpacking equipment was available in the early 1980s, then vanished.

Ray Jardine helped bring it back.

Thanks, Ray.

-- Rex

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: AlpenLITE Superlight packs on 04/02/2014 21:24:44 MDT Print View

Rex, I had three models of their packs. The little one was about 1500 cubic inches. The medium one was maybe 2400 cubic inches. The big one was about 3000 cubic inches. That was good stuff.

--B.G.--

ROBERT TANGEN
(RobertM2S) - M

Locale: Lake Tahoe
Does this author hate Z-Packs? on 04/02/2014 21:55:33 MDT Print View

This author,in multiple articles, seems bound and dtermined to deny the existence of Zpacks. Is he at war with them? Or are they financial competition?
"Disclaimer: The author enjoys a non-renumerative relationship with both Seek Outside and Gossamer Gear in product development and as an ambassador." Maybe it's because the Arc Blast blows all of the authors home-made packs, and the packs he mentions here, out of the water.

Luke Schmidt
(Cameron) - MLife

Locale: The WOODS
Re Does this Author Hate Zpacks on 04/02/2014 22:09:37 MDT Print View

David has only been a Gossamer Gear ambassador for a short while. He was using rugged packs way before that. The arc blast is definitely a cool design but its not the most durable in the world according to multiple users. For the kind of trips he does this would be a concern. I've worn out packs made of more durably material then the arc blast and I don't get out as much as David does.

Edited by Cameron on 04/02/2014 22:11:07 MDT.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Does this author hate Z-Packs? on 04/02/2014 23:22:09 MDT Print View

"Maybe it's because the Arc Blast blows all of the authors home-made packs, and the packs he mentions here, out of the water."

April Fools was yesterday.

Paul Magnanti
(PaulMags) - MLife

Locale: People's Republic of Boulder
cheese and rice! on 04/03/2014 06:21:56 MDT Print View

(Better than my usual religious based expletive)

Not mentioning a brand does not imply hate.

There are so many cottage gear makers now. Unless you collect gear as your hobby [1] or get lots of gear sent your way it is impossible to use every brand and model. And if you are blessed getting so much gear, how effective is the testing, really? :)

In any case, seems a rather sharp barb and accusation for what was an overview article and not really gear specific.


[1] Seems there are many people who collect gear as their hobby first. :D

Edited by PaulMags on 04/03/2014 06:22:56 MDT.

David Chenault
(DaveC) - BPL Staff - F

Locale: Crown of the Continent
Re: Does this author hate Z-Packs? on 04/03/2014 07:15:18 MDT Print View

Robert, I've seen very few Zpacks products first hand. As Luke mentions, their design priorities don't mesh well with my own. The Arc Blast looks like a cool pack, but as a consumer I hesitate to spend so much on something I fear I'd break, and as a reviewer I'd struggle to do it justice.

I mentioned Golite here for obvious historical reasons. I mentioned Gossamer Gear because the BPL archives have more GGear reviews than any other, and thus it made the most compelling example by a wide margin.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: "The Grocery Sack Grows Up: A Genealogy of the Modern Ultralight Backpack" on 04/03/2014 07:22:29 MDT Print View

Excellent post Tony.

David Chenault
(DaveC) - BPL Staff - F

Locale: Crown of the Continent
Re: "The Grocery Sack Grows Up: A Genealogy of the Modern Ultralight Backpack" on 04/03/2014 07:56:29 MDT Print View

Tony, that Litepac catalogue is very cool. Thanks.

Beyond RayWay the trail gets very diffuse, and the print evidence even thinner. That '82 Backpacker article is about the only thing I could dig up from that decade. It would be great to tell the tale of how those products lost favor, but I couldn't get enough sources. It doesn't help that my own recollection of gear trends begin in the early 90s.

Tony Ronco
(tr-browsing) - MLife
RE: "The Grocery Sack Grows Up: A Genealogy of the Modern Ultralight Backpack" on 04/03/2014 10:25:03 MDT Print View

- RE: "Beyond RayWay the trail gets very diffuse, and the print evidence even thinner."

David, you mean the google trail becomes thinner (*smile*)

Actually, there were many print articles from that time.
Some of the ones that influenced me more were are earlier Backpacker articles by Chuck Kennedy, and the earlier Backpacker article done on Fred Williams. Even early than that, Doug Robinson wrote some great advice on going light (more aimed towards cross-country skiing), and a while later Bela Vadasz wrote a fantastic article on going light (aimed more toward back-country climbing).

There is a BPL thread on Marlyn Doan's "Hiking Light" book (1982)

My Scoutmaster (who helped launch me down this path) was heavily influenced by Albert Saijo's book "The Backpacker" in 1972. The author was kind of an Eco-Buddhist in promoting this as a lifestyle and avoiding woodcraft (among other things): "The only way to break this cycle is to begin thinking in terms of an ultra-light wilderness style … And ultra-light comes to mean not only cutting back on the load, but also treading light on the wilderness, thus helping to preserve it”

For history students David Brower's "Going Light with Backpack or Burro" (Burro?? LOL) never the less, the book had many of the concepts (yup, the author is the Sierra Club's David Brower - one and the same)

Of course there were the writings of Horace Kephar (1906) the weights of his big three: Backpack = 2 lbs, 3 oz; Sleeping = 3 lbs: Shelter = 2 lbs, 4 oz
(of course back then, there was a lot of woodcraft included too)

While she didn't publish any articles, Emma "Grandma" Gatewood (as previous mentioned in this thread), was a pioneer for being the first woman to thru-hike the AT back in 1956.

- RE:"It would be great to tell the tale of how those products lost favor"

For AlpenLITE, their driving force (and a market force) was Don Douglass who an ultralight promoter that (among other things) set a speed record for the JMT because of going ultralight ... anyway, he decided to leave the business and sail around the world (which was a disastrous trip - but its a good read). The company lost its rudder when he left (to add an nautical analogy to the summary *smile*)

But in a nutshell, the rest is just the result of the market ... it didn't sell, as there was no marketing venue for movement to close the gap between the early adopters and the early majority. Because of an uneducated user base within the early majority there was also a backlash on the movement because of perceived durability problems coming from those folks who didn't know how to properly use the gear. More traditional companies were also nervous about warranty issues as well.

But most important factor was closing the gap on the user base. For example, Gregory was one of the more traditional company with a iron clad warranty and a high quality product, came out at the time with a superlight version of their Snow Creek backpack ... which they ended up dropping long before the Snow Creek model ran its course. I had an opportunity to ask Wayne why he dropped it from his line (it was a good pack, I was saving my money up for it), his reply was an exasperated "It didn't sell, I have to sell people what they want, and by the sales they didn't want that"

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: Vintage ultralight on 04/03/2014 10:25:12 MDT Print View

There was the book "Hiking Light" by Marlyn Doan published in 1982.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/xdpy/forum_thread/83309/index.html?skip_to_post=720933#720933

I think Jardine radicalized the process a bit, really looking to weigh everything and cut it all down to the bare minimum with an engineer's cold eye for efficiency.

The hurdles to cross were emotional and romantic notions of what was right and proper to equip yourself for wilderness travel. Once those idols were toppled, it kicked the door open to much more scientific layering systems, analysis by spreadsheet and using modern materials to full advantage.

You can still see the process in sharing gear lists, where people overpack due to fear of weather, wanting clean clean clothes every day, separate sleeping clothing, heavy boots and so on. There are some leaps from double wall shelters to simple tarps, Spartan thin sleeping pads and trading out heavy jackets for 2oz windshirts that run parallel to the grocery sack packs.

As far as pack evolution, I think there has been parallel development of SUL frameless packs right along with UL internal frame packs. Gossamer Gear is a good example of both within one company with the G4/5/6 packs vs the internal stay models like the Gorilla and Mariposa. The grocery sacks are still out there for those who want the lightest possible alternative.

IVAN DOMINGUEZ TEJERA
(idtejera) - MLife

Locale: CANARY ISLANDS
Thank your very much David for your article on 04/03/2014 12:38:29 MDT Print View

I have enjoyed reading your article. Good job.

Andy Jarman
(AndyJarman) - M

Locale: Edge of the World
ARC BLAST Fragile? on 04/03/2014 19:43:17 MDT Print View

Try one, I've just spent two years wearing one canyoning, reversing backwards through impenetrable thickets and dragging it along rock shelfs. They are tough as.

Ripped the netting on mine crawling under some thickets in January, repair cost for replacement of the entire mesh pocket by Zpacks a princely $15. What's not to like?

Whilst the carbon fibre struts look fragile (Zpacks gave me a spare strut when I expressed incredulity that it was adequate ... that was a waste of postage), believe me they are far from fragile. Couldn't get the buckle to loosen enough to remove the strut when returning the bag, very nervously flexed the strut to a rediculous degree (wincing and sweating) the thing didn't even creak.

468grams(16 ounces) of pure ingenuity, and a thoroughly decent bunch of people to deal with too!

Edited by AndyJarman on 04/03/2014 19:55:33 MDT.

Monty Montana
(TarasBulba) - MLife

Locale: Rocky Mountains
Re: "The Grocery Sack Grows Up: A Genealogy of the Modern Ultralight Backpack" on 04/05/2014 20:52:14 MDT Print View

Thanks! This was a great read, a trip down memory lane as it were. I have the GG Whisper and the original Jam and still use them but sure appreciate the latest GG Gorilla for heavier loads. Again, nice work.

David Chenault
(DaveC) - BPL Staff - F

Locale: Crown of the Continent
Re: ARC BLAST Fragile? on 04/06/2014 18:40:25 MDT Print View

Andy, every cuben hybrid pack I've seen which has been beaten on a fair bit has given me cause for skepticism about the materials longevity, but I really ought to suck it up and build with it to find out for myself.

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: Re: ARC BLAST Fragile? on 04/06/2014 19:14:44 MDT Print View

I also wonder a bit - only because my singular experience with the arc blast was on the JMT where I ran into 5 people with an arc blast; four of them had already patched their brand new packs with tape by the time I met them.

Is it the granite?

My pocketbook is happy that I'm not enamored with the Arc Blast just yet - I assume it will be fine, but I also have enough skepticism to stick with Xpac for now.

Randy Martin
(randalmartin) - F

Locale: Colorado
Re: Re: Re: ARC BLAST Fragile? on 04/06/2014 20:03:11 MDT Print View

My ultralight gear I baby because I have spent too much on it not to. If I am doing off route hiking where I expect to do abrasive scrambling I wouldn't take my Arc Blast. For climbing and the like I would have taken a climbing pack that is heavier gauge material.

Common Sense. Use the right tool for the job.

M B
(livingontheroad) - M
Arc on 04/06/2014 20:13:45 MDT Print View

I dont particularly view the Arc Blast as fragile at all.

Cuben hybrid, is tough stuff. But in these packs, HMG included, cuben isnt used just for wt savings, 2.92 oz cuben hybrid is pretty heavy actually compared to many other fabric options. Its also mostly waterproof, for a period of time at least, and the time for waterproof taped seam packs is long overdue.

Does it wear out? maybe. But plenty have deep pockets and dont seem to mind that. Nothing lasts forever, some things just longer than others. Even if something does last forever, it will become obsolete.

I can say a few positive things about the Arc Blast. Joe is doing something right with its design. It carries weight on the hips extremely well, the simple belt is more comfortable than most, and, for some reason even with a heavy heavy bearcan, it does not try to lean away from my back at all

Randy Martin
(randalmartin) - F

Locale: Colorado
Re: Arc on 04/06/2014 20:29:46 MDT Print View

I have the Arc Blast and absolutely LOVE it!. I just meant that if I am doing day or two hikes/climbs where I expect to do a lot of scrambling I wouldn't take my Arc Blast.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Arc on 04/06/2014 21:24:38 MDT Print View

Dave may be referring to the frame, which is not intended to carry heavier loads. Vertically stiff but too flexible horizontally? The 50d cuben hybrid is strong stuff but not as abrasion resistant as say, 210d Cordura, and it shouldn't be given the denier and weight.

No perfect fabric. Except maybe Spectra....

David Drake
(DavidDrake) - F - M

Locale: North Idaho
Hybrid cuben vs. X-Pac: Question for the pack fabric gurus on 04/07/2014 13:35:37 MDT Print View

So what advantage (if any) does hybrid cuben have over Dimension Polyant fabrics?

Both have waterproof films, are reinforced with high-strength fibers, and have woven face fabrics. It looks like TX-07 is essentially the same weight as 2.92 oz/sy hybrid cuben (esp. given how little fabric goes into a pack), and less than half the price.

Educate me.

Dan Durston
(dandydan) - M

Locale: Cascadia
Cuben Hybrid vs. Dimension Polyant on 04/07/2014 14:14:00 MDT Print View

Regarding Cuben Hybrid vs. Dimension Polyant, I could be wrong, but I think the key differences are:

1) Cuben Hybrid uses spectra fibers bonded between the woven and waterproof (plastic) layers, which I think are superior to what DP uses (I could be totally wrong here).

2) DP fabrics are available with wider range of face fabric options

3) DP fabrics always (sometimes?) have an extra layer on the inside to protect the waterproof layer. Cuben hybrid does not.

4) DP fabrics are cheaper I think, although for a pack the actual cost difference is minor since you just need a couple yards.

So my general sense is that if you're looking for a face fabric similar to what Cuben Hybrid offers, and if you don't mind paying more, then you can get a somewhat stronger material for a similar weight of DP material. However, if you're looking for something more robust (face fabric or liner) or if you're looking for lower cost then DP is the way to go.

Both are great pack fabrics for the right application. It's great to see truly waterproof pack fabrics, not just ephemeral coatings. DP makes fabrics that work for beefier applications.

Edited by dandydan on 04/07/2014 14:15:09 MDT.

kevin timm
(ktimm) - M

Locale: Colorado (SeekOutside)
Cuben vs XPAC on 04/07/2014 18:15:32 MDT Print View

A few items to clarify.

VX07 is actually a bit heavier at 4.9 ounces per sq yard. On a packbag this is a 2 -3 ounce difference usually.

Not all XPAC fabrics have the inner protection film. Some do, some don't. X33 for instance does not have it and really does not need it since it is 330D Cordura.

As far as feel , they both (Cuben Hybrid / XPAC) have a similar and sort of stiff feel initially. DP does have one fabric, that is lighter than the Cuben hybrid at 1.8 ounces, but IMO this is a good fabric for a true UL pack, that is constrained to someone operating and using with a bit of care.

I've used both the fabrics and personally would put VX07 and Cuben hybrid as about the same in regards to abrasion.

So why use heavier fabrics ? To extend the life of a product, through multiple users and adventures, and to reduce returns / defects when packs are used outside the realm of what the design / fabric is intended for. Yes, we can explain to someone the pack wasn't made for a certain type of use, but it easier to not have the conversation at all. We make our suspension components out of 500 D Cordura, simply because we don't want them to wear out for a long long time. Yes we have used pack cloths and they worked, but I prefer the longevity of Cordura. With the Paradox, / Seek Outside packs, we know where we have opportunities to save weight, but we view most of these opportunities as having too much of an impact on longevity. We can use lighter foam, lighter materials and have done a lot of testing with these, but we have greater piece of mind adding a couple ounces and using more substantial components at high stress areas.

In pure theoretical terms, and applying some usage limits, say confining to a more "ultralight with some care", we could get a Paradox / Seek Outside style design close to 2 lbs and still have a very good carry and fit to 60 and perhaps 80 lbs. We have not pursued this yet, because, at least for me it would not be a pack I could use for everything. Yes I would love a 35 ounce (as an example) pack that carried 60 lbs great, but there are times it would get stored in the closet as it would just not be suitable for the task. Also, I can get very close to 35 ounces now on the present design, by using the UL frame, a Cuben Base Talon, and a lightweight Cuben Roll Top Bag, or even Silnylon in more of a large "stuff sack" style.

Regarding The Arc Blast / Zpacks being a competitor, I would not consider that at all personally. The Arc BLast looks like a great pack, and innovative design but I would suspect the design goals are very different. The Arc Blast looks like a great UL pack, where the Paradox / Seek Outside is more of a platform.

Kevin

ROBERT TANGEN
(RobertM2S) - M

Locale: Lake Tahoe
Cilogear fabric on 04/07/2014 18:35:02 MDT Print View

Cilogear uses "proprietary woven Dyneema with the NWD laminate inside." How does this compare to Seek Outside fabrics?

David Drake
(DavidDrake) - F - M

Locale: North Idaho
Re: Cuben vs XPAC on 04/07/2014 19:53:42 MDT Print View

Thanks so much for the info, Kevin. At least for my purposes, I prefer the heavier x-pac fabrics. Also to clarify, the DP fabric I was comparing to hybrid cuben was *t*x-07, not vx-07--I don't have any and was referring to specs from Rockywoods--they show it as 3.2 oz/sy and without the layer of scrim over the PET film, unlike the vx fabrics.

David Chenault
(DaveC) - BPL Staff - F

Locale: Crown of the Continent
Re: Cuben vs XPAC on 04/07/2014 22:18:36 MDT Print View

"I've used both the fabrics and personally would put VX07 and Cuben hybrid as about the same in regards to abrasion."

Interesting. VX-07 is an ideal trail fabric in my book. It seems to do ok with bushwacking, but not with hauling and rock bashing. TX-07 is good for extension collars only, though its transparency is kinda nifty.

The Cilo woven/non-woven dyneema is a pretty phenomenal fabric. Better abrasion resistance than 1000D cordura for less than half the weight, and waterproof to boot. For the price (~100 bucks a yard) it bloody well ought to be.

Dan Durston
(dandydan) - M

Locale: Cascadia
Cuben Hybrid on 04/08/2014 07:05:52 MDT Print View

Cuben Hybrid also comes in a few face fabric options, which seems to be less well known.

It's been a while since I looked into it, but I think the Zpacks stuff (2.9oz/yd) uses a 30D face fabric polyester, while the stuff HMG and ULA use (~3.3oz/yd) uses a 50 or 70D face fabric, and then I think there's another option that's less well known but heavier still around 4-5oz/yd.

kevin timm
(ktimm) - M

Locale: Colorado (SeekOutside)
Great Assessment on 04/08/2014 07:08:48 MDT Print View

Dave's assessment is pretty much spot on in my book. VX07, is a great trail, or bushwhacking fabric, not great for things like rock bashing etc. IMO, the hybrid Cuben is about the same. Granted with some care, it is possible to mitigate some of the rock bashing , but it's not always feasible if your pack is on a haul loop for a 100 ft drop and it's windy and cliffy and it has 40 lbs in it.

Interestingly enough, I went on a recent canyon trip with a VX07, VX21, and Tan 210 D packs. I chose not to ask anyone to be careful and let kids be kids. The Tan 210D (3.9 ounce sq yard) faired the best, with only some minor abrasion on the bottle pockets. This was mostly due to the fact the person using the Tan just took a little more care and they had a bigger day talon (in VX33) which took most of the punishment.

Brendan Swihart
(brendans) - MLife

Locale: Fruita CO
Re: Cuben Hybrid on 04/08/2014 08:08:05 MDT Print View

While I haven't used any for a pack (but have played with samples), the heavier hybrids seem pretty promising (looks like cascade craftworks sells a 150d face version for MYOG). The hybrid face fabrics are impressively abrasion resistant for their weight because they're such a super tight weave. They're also impressively stiff, which I worried would cause some sharp corners that would be prone to wear, but depending on how much it breaks in this might not be a concern.

The full spectra/cuben laminates that Cilo/McHale uses is functionally about as perfect as you can ask. Cost, color, and the fact I have the itch to build a new pack and mine looks to be a couple decades from wearing out seem to be the only downsides. The DP DX40/D40 could be similar if they'd just put some spectra in both parts of the weave. It's as tough as anything in one direction and the other you can tear it easily with your hands.

David Chenault
(DaveC) - BPL Staff - F

Locale: Crown of the Continent
Re: Re: Cuben Hybrid on 04/08/2014 10:06:19 MDT Print View

Just ordered a yard of that Cascade Craftworks 5 oz/yard cuben (nice find). 52 dollars shipped; stuff better be worth it.

Nathan Meyerson
(NathanMeyerson) - F - M

Locale: NW
Regarding Xpac and Cuben on 04/08/2014 22:37:14 MDT Print View

Hi folks, I thought I'd chime into the fabric discussion. Bear with me :)

The biggest thing to keep in mind with all of this is that every fabric has applications, and within the design of gear (especially backpacks), success is going to come from matching an appropriate fabric to a fitting design element.

When I consider fabrics for use in packs, I generally look at four things:

1.Relative tear strength- How easy will a fabric shred when it is pulled and tugged upon. This is mostly affecting stitch hole elongation, very important for load-bearing areas, (ie suspension-systems: shoulder strap and hipbelt attachment points)

2. Abrasion resistance- How will the fabric hold up to abrasion. These needs are dependant upon design elements. A 40denier or 70denier fabric may be appropriate for an extension collar, but I generally dont want the bottom or front of my pack made solely of this stuff (unless I'm going SUL!)

3. Waterproofness- How well will a fabric resist water penetration through the fabric. (PU coatings are generally more supple, but wear off in time. Laminates (like Xpac or cuben maintain their waterproofness longer (or so we're led to believe))

4. Long term durability- how well will a fabric hold up to UV degradation, will a PU(or other coating wear off with time, etc)

Other factors like stiffness, color etc are a bit less functionally important to me as a bag designer.

The three big players for pack fabrics right now seem to be Xpac(several styles), Cuben(two hybrid variants) and the ever popular 210 Dyneema Ripstop.

"So what advantage (if any) does hybrid cuben have over Dimension Polyant fabrics"

The tensile strength per weight is FAR higher. The dyneema content of cuben is the cause of this. Dyneema being a much stronger material than nylon or polyester PER WEIGHT

For regular non-woven cuben(rarely seen in heavy-use packs), sewing is an issue because of stitch-hole elongation. This comes from the VERY loose-knit structure of dyneema thread in the material(hold a piece of cuben up to light and you can see all the individual threads).

For Hybrid cubens, the face fabric helps solve the issue with stitch hole elongation(but then is only as effective as the face fabric plus the cuben, and the lighter weight hybrids have only a 50D face fabric).

Any Dimension Polyant Xpac fabric whos name begins with "V" as in VX70, VX21 etc has a LINER of 50d polyester. That has the same denier (thickness) as the FACE fabric of the common 'lightweight' hybrid Cuben.

IMHO, it's hard to find a true workhorse fabric under 4oz/yd2. I personally don't see the lightweight cuben hybrid as a workhorse fabric. It fills a niche and thats great. But as a general use pack fabric, its abrasion resistance is too low for my liking.

Looking to the future,a new fabric that I'm excited about, and have been testing and sewing with the last 6-8 months is the new Xpac X21. It consists of a 210D nylon face, Xpac grid and a thicker .5mil (instead of .25mil) film. No 50d Scrim. Lack of scrim (most likely a wash for a 210d Fabric) creates a fabric about 25% Lighter than the common VX21 While maintaining similar tear strength(at this denier of fabric, the tear strength comes mostly from the face fabric anyway).

DP seems to be creating this option for their larger Denier fabrics(as evidenced by the new X51 also, and the soon to be restocked X33). It makes a good deal of sense to me.

All said, I'm an Xpac man myself, but I see the viability of a niche for cuben hybrid. The DyneemaX stuff is great too, but from a producers perspective, Xpac is a better value, delivering much more bang for the buck.

Kevin said:

"Not all XPAC fabrics have the inner protection film. Some do, some don't. X33 for instance does not have it and really does not need it since it is 330D Cordura."

To clarify, Kevin, I assume you're referring to the 50d polyester liner 'Scrim', not the film. I have never seen an Xpac fabric that does not have a waterproof PET(or otherwise) film.

Brendan says:
"The DP DX40/D40 could be similar if they'd just put some spectra in both parts of the weave. It's as tough as anything in one direction and the other you can tear it easily with your hands."

I'm sitting here with a piece of D40 trying my best to tear it in either direction, and it wont budge. Perhaps I'm just weak, but it wont tear easily in either direction for me. If I remember correctly, it's a 400D polyester warp/400D spectra weft plus a 600D Spectra ripstop face fabric on, a .25mil PET film and 50D polyester liner/scrim. In my little experience, that would add up to TOUGH AS NAILS. I was told DP uses polyester in the face fabric so that their laminate will stick to the fabric better.


Reminiscing, many Years ago There was a pack maker (I believe SMD) that offered a 210D Dyneema ripstop that was produced by Xpac. It was an amazing fabric. The strength of the workhorse 210D Dyneema ripstop with the waterproofness of xpac laminates (and a 50d Polyester scrim) I made my my fifth backpack out of this stuff and it lasted me nearly 7 years of hard use. Eventually the scrim fabric delaminated from the face fabric and I cannibalized it. If I had the capital to purchase 1000 yards of uncoated dyneema ripstop and have Xpac laminate it for me, I'd be all over it.

P.S.

For fun, as a very unscientific test of abrasion resistance you can do at home: scrape a rough rock across the face of a fabric it until you put a hole in it. Try with 50Denier, 70 Denier 150 Denier 210Denier fabrics etc. You will get a general idea of relative abrasion resistance. Cuben(sub 2oz) without a face fabric SHREDS NEARLY RIGHT AWAY(as does silnylon, TX34 etc)

Edited by NathanMeyerson on 04/08/2014 22:39:56 MDT.

Luke Schmidt
(Cameron) - MLife

Locale: The WOODS
Re Regarding Xpac and Cuban on 04/08/2014 23:01:23 MDT Print View

Nathan what has been your experience with the heavier 150 Cuban? How would you compare it to other fabrics particularly in abrasion resistance.

Nathan Meyerson
(NathanMeyerson) - F - M

Locale: NW
compare it to what? on 04/09/2014 08:49:37 MDT Print View

What would you like me to compare it to?

As far as I'm concerned, the hybrid cubens are only slightly more abrasion resistant than their face fabric.The Cuben laminate itself doesn't add much. For a 150D fabric, that adds up to maybe as resistant as a 210D fabric, but the Cuben laminate itself, a 9k (heavyweight) version in the 150d hybrid adds a huge margin to tear and tensile strength, blowing traditional 210d wovens away.

All speculation here as I don't have any data to back it up.(aside from manufacturer specs on Xpac and Cuben)

That being said, it is heavier than x21 and DyneemaX, but lighter than vx21.

P.s. Anyone with the money to buy minimums could have Cubic Tech custom produce a fabric with varying properties by combining face fabrics and laminates. Just like Dimension Polyant produces nearly 800 custom fabrics a year(or so I'm told).

Edited by NathanMeyerson on 04/09/2014 10:19:30 MDT.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: The Grocery Sack Grows Up: A Genealogy of the Modern Ultralight Backpack on 04/09/2014 21:27:13 MDT Print View

Dave C said,

"Beyond RayWay the trail gets very diffuse, and the print evidence even thinner. That '82 Backpacker article is about the only thing I could dig up from that decade. It would be great to tell the tale of how those products lost favor, but I couldn't get enough sources. It doesn't help that my own recollection of gear trends begin in the early 90s."

------------------------------------------

Tony has really helped fill in some of the blanks. For all things backpacking in the U.S. in the past 50+ years, it seems the trail constantly crosses the path of Colin Fletcher, which I will explain.

In 1959 he published the 1,000 Mile Summer, a book that slowly gained popularity over the years. A few years after the book was published, the 60's Counter-culture Revolution and a quasi back-to-nature movement saw backpacking gain popularity. Then in 1968 Fletcher published the first Complete Walker book, which (with subsequent revised editions) influenced most modern backpackers directly or indirectly.

Then in the early 70's we see a covey of frameless packs hit the market, all under 3 lbs and some close to 2 lbs. The 3 most popular brands were owned or influenced by Don Wittenberger, whose designs morphed the alpine rucksack into a larger frameless packs suitable for backpacking. The 3 packs were the Rivendell Jensen, Yakworks Yakpak, and the Pacific Ironworks (Chouinard) Ultimate Thule. Now 2-3 lbs may seem heavy, but keep in mind that materials were limited and these packs were built by climbers with an eye towards durability. I remember seeing ads for all 3 packs and availability in mail order catalogs. I never owned any of them, but saw a few in the backcountry. I seem to remember some of them even had "load lifters."

Like we are seeing today, with a decline in frameless packs and movement to UL framed-packs, a lot of people modified these Wittenberger packs by adding internal stays or other kinds of suspension upgrades. The biggest problem for these 3 early companies was the lack of an economical method to market to the mainstream backpacker -- there was no Internet and they could not produce the quantities needed to attract a mainstream retailer.

So what killed these 3 packs for backpacking? Two things:

The first was that without a frame they didn't do the job for long trips, and it seems that people did more longer trips back then, than today -- that is -- not a lot of overnighters or short trips like a lot of people do today; but more trips in the 5 - 7 day range. A we certainly weren't doing boutique hiking by dropping into a trail town every 3-5 days on our big long hikes of several weeks or several months.

The 2nd thing that killed the Jensen and it's brethren was Fletcher's Complete Walker II (1974), a book that really started driving the popularity of backpacking and the sales of external frame packs, which became easily available from the large mail order companies like REI and large retailers. If Fletcher used an external, then that is what you should buy.

Now we head into the early 80's with the AlpenLITE and many other similar light packs. Along with this next generation/iteration of frameless packs, articles are written about lightweight backpacking, and many people start hiking with lighter gear, but it was still a niche just as it is today. Many people "embraced" lightness, myself included, and lots of us continued to do so over the decades.

Things have gotten lighter over the years mostly due to the innovation in materials, not design.

Tony mentioned Kennedy and Williams. It is also interesting that in The Complete Walker III (1984), Fletcher also mentions them, calling it the New Wave. Fletcher doesn't necessarily endorse it, he calls it evolution, casts a hopeful eye to what may be possible, and reiterates that New Wave Lightness Skills are needed... he uses the metaphor of an Indy race car driver versus the normal person driving a Chevy.

What Fletcher does do in this 3rd edition is kill the external frame pack and the second generation of (1980's) commercial frameless packs.

He also killed Gregory's super light packs, which Wayne Gregory knows is the reason they didn't sell.

How did Fletcher do this?

Well after 26 years of the Fletcher minions emulating him with their external frame packs (Fletcher had a Trailwise, but Kelty had the market share), Fletcher drops a bombshell by abandoning his external and extolling the virtues of the Gregory Cassin -- a really heavy internal frame pack. Cassin sales go through the roof, Gregory gets rich and owes his success to Fletcher, sales of internal packs by all the other brands go crazy, and the externals & frameless packs die. No one holds a funeral because the internals are more expensive and retailers hold good gross on sales.

But some folks didn't go the Fletcher Way, especially for shorter trips. In the backcountry there was a minority with rucksacks, or even those who just removed their internal frames. Instead, I kept my light external and reduced the weight of everything I carried in it.

So, there isn't a Ray Way -- it exists only in Jardine's mind.

Yes, he help popularize this next iteration of lightweight backpacking, but he surely didn't invent it or the Stuff Sack with Straps. The Internet popularized the "new" fad. Ray happened to publish at the beginning of the Internet age. To be honest, Ryan Jordan probably has had the biggest impact popularizing lightweight backpacking by starting BPL.

Matthew Black
(mtblack) - F
Re: Re: The Grocery Sack Grows Up: A Genealogy of the Modern Ultralight Backpack on 04/09/2014 22:03:31 MDT Print View

Nick,

My copy of The Thousand Mile Summer lists 1964 as the original publication date.

I am not familiar with many of the companies presented in the original article or your post. I do know that my father purchased a Wilderness Experience frameless pack between 1978 and 1980. It was 1000 denier Cordura and comprised of two vertical channels for the main pack bag with a separate sleeping bag compartment. It had leather lashing tabs and included two external pockets secured with webbing and slider buckles. All hardware was metal, the waist belt wasn't padded. I haven't seen any reference to this type of pack in any article although it was presumably inspired by other experiments or trends at that time.

I carried it on a Yosemite trip in 1986 and it worked well enough. Don't recall specifics about the pack's carry comfort or fitness for use. I do remember blisters from a pair of Vietnam era leather combat boots that I wore incessantly and of course I wore jeans and a cotton t-shirt throughout the trip.

Backpacker ran a hike off between a UL proponent in the '90s in addition to the article listed for 1982. Regretfully I don't have the reference as I came across it reading every issue of Backpacker scanned into Google's maw several years ago at a job I wish to forget.

The only reason for bringing it up is that regardless of what one may think of Ray Jardine as a person he has had an indelible impression upon lightweight backpacking. He may have simply been in the right place at the right time, but his writings were most likely to turn up in a search for lightweight backpacking in 1997 or later. Go-Lite was formed after discovery of his writing. Gossamer Gear is also largely the result of his writing. He has had a tremendous impact on lightweight backpacking and it is unfair to simply dismiss him.

Edited by mtblack on 04/10/2014 00:37:05 MDT.

Paul Magnanti
(PaulMags) - MLife

Locale: People's Republic of Boulder
backpacker mag article on 04/10/2014 07:50:08 MDT Print View

"Backpacker ran a hike off between a UL proponent in the '90s in addition to the article listed for 1982. Regretfully I don't have the reference as I came across it reading every issue of Backpacker scanned into Google's maw several years ago at a job I wish to forget."

I remember this article well!


And here it is :
http://www.backpacker.com/june_1998_feature_gear_ultralight_controversy/articles/819

I remember this article because the lightweight backpacker was a big, burly guy vs the little guy who was loaded down. The lack of photos really misses some of the joy in the original article. :)

The lightweight guy's method was not so much about the gear he took but the gear he DIDN'T take and his minimalist approach. Something we tend to forget when going light esp in he past five years.

"But there are those curmudgeons among us who are irritated-insulted, actually-with how high-tech the backpacking experience has become. All the fancy gear, they contend, insulates and distracts you from the purity of nature. In a nutshell, they believe the gearheads are missing the point."

What was written in 1998 seems to apply to 2014. :)

Edited by PaulMags on 04/10/2014 07:52:35 MDT.

Matthew Black
(mtblack) - F
Re: backpacker mag article on 04/10/2014 10:08:28 MDT Print View

Thanks, Paul. That's the one. I drank a lot of Instant Breakfast after reading that then decided that pop tarts are the way to go since I like hot tea in the morning and only have the one pot/bowl with me.

David Chenault
(DaveC) - BPL Staff - F

Locale: Crown of the Continent
Re: backpacker mag article on 04/10/2014 10:44:28 MDT Print View

Good stuff folks, I appreciate it.

Mags, I recall that article as well. I was actually a Backpacker subscriber back in high school, and that article had me all psyched to go take my blue K-Mart tarp and TNF school bag backpacking.

Paul Magnanti
(PaulMags) - MLife

Locale: People's Republic of Boulder
Archive is online on 04/10/2014 11:08:40 MDT Print View

The archive, with photos, is online:
http://bit.ly/1kvRBBi

Pg 52: Modern Man vs Mad Dog

Besides the amusing photos, there is a chart for gear and weights (with food, water and fuel included).

I remember reading this not too long after I did the AT in my leather boots, wearing a 5500 CI pack and using a whisper lite.

Things started changing...

Edited by PaulMags on 04/10/2014 11:09:54 MDT.

HK Newman
(hknewman) - MLife

Locale: Western US
"Modern man vs mad dog" preceded by "Less is more" on 04/10/2014 11:24:32 MDT Print View

I remember the Mad Dog article but there was also another BP article earlier in the 90's by Mark Jenkins "Less is More, (April 1994, p. 75) kind of all over the place, plus another somewhere about "fast packed" the Gore mountain range in Colorado due to time/work constraints.


ed: names

Edited by hknewman on 04/10/2014 20:12:18 MDT.

Paul Magnanti
(PaulMags) - MLife

Locale: People's Republic of Boulder
Fast Packing article on 04/10/2014 13:12:25 MDT Print View

Scary how I remember all this crap....

The Gore Range one was by M.J Fayhee (now one of the main writers at Mountain Gazette: http://www.mountaingazette.com/

Currently he is based out of Silver City, NM.

The BPer Mag article can be found here:
http://bit.ly/1kOm1KX

OCt 1996, p71

I was just starting to backpack then. As with anything I tend to like, I dive deep. Read, research and immerse myself into quite a bit.

I read Backpacker Mag religiously in those first years of backpacking. So those early readings are really seared into memory.

Neat to see the nascent version of today's lightweight backpacking in those earlier articles.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Re: The Grocery Sack Grows Up: A Genealogy of the Modern Ultralight Backpack on 04/10/2014 19:41:56 MDT Print View

"My copy of The Thousand Mile Summer lists 1964 as the original publication date."

Matt,

That could very well be the publication date. I am 3,000 miles from home and cannot check my copy.

I did read about it in 1959. Thinking back, maybe it was in a newspaper or magazine. I seem to remember Fletcher wrote a series of articles while doing the trip -- it is how he financed all or part of the trip.

However I know I read it or an article in 1959. It was during the week I was at the LA Coliseum when a young Koufax struck out 18 S.F. Giants and Wally Moon won the game in the bottom of the 9th with an opposite field home run over the big fence in left field. I had never backpacked, but I was intrigued with the concept.

Matthew Black
(mtblack) - F
1959 on 04/10/2014 20:12:28 MDT Print View

Nick,

I can imagine why that would stick in your memory.

I found references to field reports from Colin Fletcher published in the San Francisco Chronicle for 1958. Time to start digging through newspaper archives.

Aaron Patt
(apatt_tm) - MLife

Locale: Southern NH
Internal stays.... on 05/10/2014 17:28:27 MDT Print View

I thought this article was very interesting. I was hoping that the discussion of the internal stays, wedded to the hipbelt would get some more comments. Despite the discussion of the latest fabrics, its the load transference that interested me most. I started backpacking longer distances in 1980 with frame packs. The memory of the aluminum "lightweight" frames that I wore and the transition to internal backpacks is still with me. Back then we compared the weight of these different carry methods (and costs) a lot while on trail. When UL became accessible I tried a version of the grocery sack and didnt appreciate the shoulder soreness. Being a person that doesnt fare well with (mainly) shoulder only carry, I have moved away from UL 'sacks' that don't transfer weight. If someone were to do an article that focuses on the internal stays (or point me to one thats been done recently) and their nuances, I would appreciate it.

David Chenault
(DaveC) - BPL Staff - F

Locale: Crown of the Continent
Re: Internal stays.... on 05/10/2014 17:51:35 MDT Print View

A few suggestions on UL suspension systems:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/paradox-evolution-review-chenault.html#.U266VC_eO98

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/hyperlite_mountain_gear_porter_pack_review.html#.U266ti_eO98

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/how_packs_work.html#.U2661C_eO98

Those three have links to older BPL articles going back over a decade which all together should provide a reasonably complete treatment of the subject.

outdoors *
(outdoors) - MLife

Locale: Michigan
Arc Blast/Cuben Haters on 05/26/2014 06:25:50 MDT Print View

Seems most of the Cuben haters have never picked the stuff up and used it. Yes it is $$. I have never bought a pack and expected it to last 10 years or even 5. Its laughable that most on this forum are not thru hikers and will never put to the test as what Joe from Z Packs says. "Good enough for one thru hike, but most people don't so it should be good for many years of usage."

Do you throw your pack on the ground at a rest?

Use it as a sled to down scree?

Most of us carry a mini roll of duct tape. Use it if you get a hole and stop crying.

Arc Blast in tow. No holes. Do I take care of it. Yes. Am I a weekend warrior NNSFS? No

We all have bias in life. Some times it is so easy to spot in a review, then claim it does not fit into my hiking style, or claim you are free climbing granite all day with your pack on.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: Arc Blast/Cuben Haters on 05/26/2014 07:42:28 MDT Print View

^ Wow. OK, feel better?

Bob Moulder
(bobmny10562) - F - M

Locale: Westchester County, NY
Re: Arc Blast/Cuben Haters on 05/26/2014 09:14:32 MDT Print View

What is amazing is that when ANY Zpack gear is FS in the Gear Swap forum it is snapped up literally within minutes.

So, there are plenty of Zpack aficionados out here.

Order wait times are another indicator.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Arc Blast/Cuben Haters on 05/26/2014 09:38:57 MDT Print View

Nm

Edited by FamilyGuy on 05/26/2014 18:17:11 MDT.

Bob Moulder
(bobmny10562) - F - M

Locale: Westchester County, NY
Re: Re: Re: Arc Blast/Cuben Haters on 05/26/2014 16:57:51 MDT Print View

'Lots' relative to what? Also plenty of WTB for Zpacks gear... Why is that? People are selling all kinds of other nice gear... why is that?

However, it appears that recently some people are simply upgrading, say from a Hex Twin to a Hex Duplex. There were a couple of people who wanted to trade or upgrade simply for the new camo material that just became available.

But, getting back to facts, which of my statements was incorrect?

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Arc Blast/Cuben Haters on 05/26/2014 17:34:46 MDT Print View

NM

Edited by FamilyGuy on 05/26/2014 18:18:07 MDT.

David Drake
(DavidDrake) - F - M

Locale: North Idaho
Re: Re: Re: Re: Arc Blast/Cuben Haters on 05/26/2014 17:57:36 MDT Print View

You know, Dave, I've been on BPL a few years now, and have learned a thing or two from your comments. But more often than not, your attitude kills it. I've looked around on Backpacker.com, and your M.O. there seems pretty much the same.

What is it with you? Are you this aggressive and rude in real life? Or do you only feel comfortable behaving like this online?

outdoors *
(outdoors) - MLife

Locale: Michigan
Gear Turnover on 05/26/2014 18:06:28 MDT Print View

Sold a Duplex to buy a Duplex. Wanted camo. Sold at full price. Threw in a ground sheet for good karma.

Gear turnover is gigantic in this business. If it wasn't you would not see this website, and about 3/4 of companies you depend on to craft your outdoor wares. If one thinks all people care about is the lovely outdoors, then I start laughing. Gear junkies unite.

Doesn't mean it is all bad or good gear being sold. I also don't think you will ever see in Gear Swap. I hated it, piece of junk now buy it from me.

Again I say how many have really put on a Cuben pack or slept in the tent, that tend to poo poo it all the time?


Really on the feelings part. I feel like I am talking to my second grade son. Lets keep it to a higher level than that.

Bob Moulder
(bobmny10562) - F - M

Locale: Westchester County, NY
Re: Re: Re: Re: Arc Blast/Cuben Haters on 05/26/2014 18:18:18 MDT Print View

"Have I hurt your feelings? LOL."

Pretty sad, Dave.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Arc Blast/Cuben Haters on 05/26/2014 18:24:13 MDT Print View

"You know, Dave, I've been on BPL a few years now, and have learned a thing or two from your comments. But more often than not, your attitude kills it. I've looked around on Backpacker.com, and your M.O. there seems pretty much the same.

What is it with you? Are you this aggressive and rude in real life? Or do you only feel comfortable behaving like this online?"

No problem Dave. Glad you have learned a thing or two.

Deleted previous posts because challenging the status quo is no longer permitted. That is what is really sad.

Edited by FamilyGuy on 05/27/2014 10:23:07 MDT.