Hey Reinhold,
I just had to say it.
As far as the shoe review goes, the JMT is good for absolutly destroying a pair of shoe, (no matter what brand). Michaels shoes looked as new before the hike.
It didn't look like they had more than 20 miles on them.

Well, energy gels work this way, you eat too many and you'll end up like this poor kitten. If you look looooong, you notice he never stops :))

But honestly energy gels are a very easy nutrition on the go, albeit expensive. One pouch usually gets you 100-120 calories and sets you back ~$1.25. Some gels are laced with 25-50 mg of caffeine, some are laced with 5g protein, some are both.

All of them have electrolytes to them and some, like PowerGel, have a high sodium content, 200 mg per pouch.

Also all of them use mostly the complex carbohydrates and a little bit of simple sugar. The ratio may look like - 25g total carbs/3 grams sugar. Except for Honey Stinger Gel, which uses natural honey laced with B vitamins, it's all simple sugar.

And most gels have antioxidative vitamins C,E to them, and some have vitamin B as well. Usually 100% daily dose per package.

I consumed a little less than 40 pouches for this trip, and brought energy bars also, but out of 16 bars I forced myself to eat only 2, all the rest were dead weight. No more bars for me. Mountain House Pro-Packs were amazing though. Sausages laced with cheddar cheese were even better. Gotta have hot food when you stop for a bit.

Edited by mpopov on 08/10/2007 01:19:08 MDT.

Aron,
I agree with you 100%...The JMT is extremely hard on feet & shoes and more JMT record
attempts probably went up in smoke due to
feet or shoe problems than any thing else.
Many running shoes just do not have the support
needed on a rough trail like the JMT and a light
weight hiking shoe might be a better choice.

First of all, I'm just a old fashioned backpacker, rather ignorant of the high tech energy strategy utilized by present day endurance runners, who can use and will appreciate any help in understanding
the advantages of energy gels etc. over traditional
backpacker foods.

My initial thinking is if energy gels deliver 100-120
calories/poutch, I assume 1 oz/poutch, then I can get more calories/oz from nuts(175-200), potato chips & cookies(150-160), crackers & cereal(110-130), salami &
beef jerky(80-100) delivering fat, complex carbs &
protein at a fraction of the cost and weight of energy
gels, so why use the gels?...I know gels are instant
energy, while the other foods need to be digested, and some are rich in protein & sodium.
But, my thinking is I can get all the protein & sodium I
need from nuts, salami & beef jerky, again at a fraction
of the cost & weight of gels, and, for quick energy I can hunk down some M & M's or a Sniker bar, again at a fraction of the weight & cost of gels.
Sniker bars worked well for Brian Robinson on his
Tripple Crown.
So, from a weight and cost point of view energy gels
don't seem to add up...there must be something else
I am not factoring in that makes endurance athletes prefer gels...help me out here.

Reinhold, in a race situation, energy gels will be easier to take in while moving and easier to digest than more solid foods. The ingredients probably have hardly any fat so they are made for competitive events over relatively short periods of time (hours to days).

Being able to take in your fuel easier and put it to use quicker are the advantages.

Edited by jshann on 08/10/2007 07:45:56 MDT.

Reinhold - As your heart rate goes up you transition from burning primarily fat to primarily carbohydrates.

For a JMT record attempt you need a very small amount of protein, no fat, and mostly carbs in your race diet. Your body can store a maximum of 1,200 C of carbs as glycogen and glucose and after that is expended, you bonk.

You can only digest 30 - 60 grams of carbs per hour with a race exertion pace. At 4 calories per gram for carbs, that is 120 C to 240 C of carbs per hour.

1 - 2 gel packets per hour provide all of the carbs your body requires for maximum aerobic performance and nothing else. By contrast the conventional foods you mentioned are harder to digest but most importantly don't provide the required carbs.

For example, 100 grams of your nuts (almonds as typical of this food group) provide 578 C or about the equivalent of 4 gel packs. The nutrients in 100 g are 21.26 g of protein, 50.4 g of fat, and 19 g of carbs. The 19 g of carbs is further broken down as 11.8 fiber, 4.8 g sugar, 4.54 g Sucrose, and .12 Glucose. In summary only (4.8+4.54+.12)/100 = .0946 or 9.5% of the energy is useable for eating while racing versus 100% for a gel.



I created this chart as part of a forum post to Aaron a while back when he was planning his JMT attempt. It uses Aaron's specific physiology. The analysis showed that if he wanted to carry the least amount of food that he would have to keep his VO2max at about 38%. In retrospect, if he was going to beat Michael by a significant margin, he would have to keep his VO2max in the 62% range and that would require close to 400 C of carbs per hour. The only way to get close to this energy expenditure is to ingest up to 240C (versus Michaels 120C) of carbs per hour while racing plus carb load for conventional meals.

Edited by richard295 on 08/10/2007 12:02:11 MDT.

"For a JMT record attempt you need a very small amount of protein, no fat, and mostly carbs in your race diet."

I would disagree with this statement. The amount of fat utilized during exercise depends the persons level of fitness and diet. Studies comparing untrained individuals, amature marathon runners and professional marathoners show that as the level of trainig increases the percent of energy coming from fat during exercise increases. Also, recent studies have shown that a high fat diet for 2-3 weeks prior to an endurance race increases fat utilization and improves performance. People don't eat fat during a marathon because it takes longer to be digested and utilized, however use of fat stores during the race slows depleation of intramuscular and hepatic glycogen. A marathon however is only a 2-4 hour race, while finishing the JMT takes days. For a trained athelete, adding fat to his diet would privide sustained energy and slow depletion of glycogen. It also has the added benefit of being more calorie dense and therefore lighter.

There have also been studies that show consumption of protein improves performance in endurance events. In a multiple day race where you at get least some rest, the addition of extra protien to help with muscle recovery would likely be beneficial.

Still, carbs will make up the majority of your calories (60-80%). I'm sure people could argue endlessly what the optimal ratios should be, and it probably varies between individuals.

James - I agree that the amount of fat utilized during exercise depends on the person's level of fitness and diet. But what is consistant is as the exercise intesity moves up, the fat % moves down and the carb percentage moves up. The majority of athletes have enough stored fat (3,500 C per lb) to take care of their fat requirements for a 5 day race.

Protein requirements for Lance Armstrong and his bike race team averaged only 15% during the long endurance races like the Tour de France.

Edited by richard295 on 08/10/2007 10:21:44 MDT.

Yeah, Cris Carmichael says the team tried to get 15% protien, 15%fat and 70% carbs. But if you are eating a lot of energy gel (0%) protien, or even snickers bars (5% protien) you are going to have to find something higher in protien (like jerky) to balance it out to reach 15%. It acutally can be fairly difficult to get 15% protien in your diet. Even strait almonds are only about 14% protien. Getting 15% fat in your diet is far easier since anything with nut has quite a bit (snicker 50%, almonds 80%) My main point was that while you can run a marathon on just energy gel and water, you need a more balanced diet for a multi-day race. I gave a range for the carbs (60-80%) because its difficult to control for all variables.

Edited by monospot on 08/10/2007 11:27:03 MDT.

James - We are in general agreement.

I should have clarified "race diet" to mean what he consumed when running/fast hiking and not resting. Michael said, "...Bratwurst sausages with Cheddar cheese, got these 500 calories in... two pouches of Mountain House Pro-Pak freeze dried dinners – “chicken teriyaki with rice” and “spaghetti in meat sauce”". When resting, his gel carbs were augmented with the approximate 15% protein and 15% fat he required for a multi-day endurance event.

Edited by richard295 on 08/10/2007 12:02:52 MDT.

Thanks a lot guys,
You cleared up a lot of confusion but at the
same time created a lot of questions for some
one like me.

OK, so carbs are the preferred primary fuel for a multy day endurance race like the JMT.
What is the advantage, weight wise & energy
availability when needed wise, of getting those
carbs from gels vs lets say crackers, cookies, cold cereal and potato chips?
If protien is important, is it best taken at the end
of the day prior to sleep for optimum muscle recovery?
How about fat?...Calorie dense but slow to digest, therefore not an immediate source of energy, is it
better taken during the day or before sleep to allow more time for digestion?
Long distance trekkers frequently carry olive oil to
supplement their calorie needs with minimum weight. What is your opinion and how much would you recommend?
Are nuts not a good choice, even though calorie dense,
because of slow digestion and low usable energy availability?
Again all my questions are related to a multy day
endurance event.

Honorable Reinhold,

I hope I am as fit as you when I reach 60! Anyway, check out Hammer Nutritions free 70-page downloadable book on "Endurance Athlete’s Guide to Success". It is great and very informative. You can also call them and may be able to have them send you printed version of it. I printed off my computer.

Here is the link to the downloads page on their site. It is in PDF form and is the second item in the list, after their catalog:

http://www.hammernutrition.com/za/HNT?PAGE=FREEDOWNLOADS

Here is a direct link to open the PDF (large file):

http://www.hammernutrition.com/downloads/fuelinghandbook.pdf



I highly recommend it.

Reinhold - The major problem with crackers, cookies, and potato chips is the relative fat content which makes them hard to digest and the relatively low carb contribution. For example, the detailed breakdown on 100g of crackers is 502 C; 7.4 g of protein, 25.3 g of fat, and 61 g of carbs. 81% of your calories are from fat since fat is 9C per gram versus 4C per gram for carbs and protein.

One manufacturer of sports nutrition products has a patent on the ratio of 25% protein to 75% carbs. A series of studies showed a slight edge for this consumption pattern versus eating your protein after your day is finished. Protein takes the longest time to digest and consequently best benefits warmth when most of it is eaten in the evening.

Fat is better taken in the evening. The lower you keep your VO2max (correlated with heart rate) the more that you benefit from fat consumption. Olive oil is excellent if your objective is to pace yourself by maintaining a relatively low VO2max to achieve the maximum distance with the least weight for food.

Nuts are best for distance optimized hiking as opposed to speed optimized hiking.

Hey Richard,
I was waiting for you to jump in on this.
You also have to remember about how many cal/hour someone can consume.
For Michael it would be about 250 and for me about 230.
You just have to realize the needs for carbs and get the % out of what you can with the least amount of callories to sustain you so you can get the rest of the calories with protien and fat.
If you can do that while getting the amount of carbs you need you are good to go.

By the way, you guys are awesome on this site.
Thank you for all of the great feed back and encouragement.

Edited by awsorensen on 08/10/2007 18:05:29 MDT.

Thanks a lot to all of you guys for the info. This is all new to me. I can see now that there is a whole new science in selecting the most suitable menu for endurance activities, not just gobbling down a lot of calories.
OK, let's say for a multiple day JMT fast pack where the hiker alternates between power walking & shuffle jogging for 20 hours a day with periodic rests, walking the ups, jogging the downs, and alternating between power walking & shuffle jogging on the straights (not as intense as racing but pushing yourself at the maximum pace that you can maintain for several days).
It seems to me that energy gels alone may not be a wise choice and 70% carbs, 15% protein, 15% fat may be more appropriate...am I correct?
Is it more advantageous from a weight and performance point of view to get those 70% carbs from energy gels or standard backpacking food like nuts, beef jerky, crackers & cheese, m & m's & snicker bars? What is the preferred combo?

What about fibers in carbs, are they counted at 4 calories per gram or are they excluded when figuring available calories?
For the 30% protein and fat need, are nuts, olive oil, cheese,& beef jerky a good choice or what is the preferred combination from an available energy and weight point of view?
As you can see, it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks.

JMT Reinhold
The old dog

whoa!! I was absent for some time and come back to quite a discussion!
I guess it depends on a person, which food is preferred, but in this particular application, if I had to use nuts, chips, jerky etc, it would have slowed me down significantly (stopping down to chew, time and energy it takes for the nutrients to get processed by the body), whereas gels get absorbed by the body almost instantly without any byproducts formed in the process, and there's no need to stop and catch breath when flying down the trail. All of the fats and protein I ate at longer rest stops before sleeping. This way it's easier for the body to process those when at rest, when there's bigger volume of blood available for the stomach's work. At least this is my understanding of it.

Reinhold - You are correct; a ratio of 70/15/15 is best for a multiple day endurance event.



The preferred combo can be illustrated by the above metabolic substrate model for a 64 year old male, VO2 Max = 45, height = 5'11", and weight = 190 lbs. Assume he eats adequate carbohydrates during his conventional dinners and breakfasts resulting in starting each day with full glucose and glycogen stores of 1200C.

During a normal paced hike his heart rate averages 90 bpm. After about a half hour of walking, his body transitions to burning 86% fat (378 C/h) and 9% CHO (39 C/h). He can walk for 1200/39 or 30.8 hours without eating before he would be forced to slow down. At his pace most any balanced diet he selected would be adequate.

During a JMT fast pack his heart rate would average about 124 bpm. After about a half hour of fast packing, his body transitions to burning 36% fat (266 C/h) and 59% CHO (433 C/h). He could only fast pack for 1200/433 or 2.8 hours without eating before he would be forced to dramatically slow down. Let’s assume that he averages consuming 1 gel packet consisting of 120 C of complex CHO each 1/2 hour. He could then easily maintain his required energy levels for the required 20 hour days and replenish fat/protein while digesting conventional food during sleep. There are no conventional foods that can be digested while exercising at this pace and provide the required CHO that I am aware of.

Dietary fiber is included in total carbohydrate on food labels but it doesn't count in providing energy for a fast pack. Fiber promotes bowel regularity and helps fight some diseases. However, fiber is not a nutrient, because it is neither digested nor absorbed by the body.

Any of the food combinations you mentioned are fine for replenishing your glycogen stores, fat, and protein. Just eat any combination that provides the required totals.

Edited by richard295 on 08/14/2007 21:45:33 MDT.

Richard,
Just to let you know, I believe my V02 Max is now higher than what the chart is set up for.
I have been doing a great work out that racks it up quick.
Get on a treadmill at 15% grade and 3.5 mph for an hour.
This is the hardest workout I do, (and by far the best).
When I first started doing it,(last year), I would almost pass out at the end.
Now I have done it for 3 hours.
After the 1st hour your heart rate is just below 175, just below 180 for the 2nd and just below 185 for the 3rd.
It also helped to have the A/C down to 60* and the fan on me.
Talk about results though, (just had to put this in).

I have to agree with Michael about the chewing.
It slowed me down a lot. After the first day, your stomach starts to reject everything you put down it.
I had to stop every time to eat, mainly because I had to drink with the food chewed to get it down.

Edited by awsorensen on 08/15/2007 00:27:08 MDT.

Aaron - The chart I most recently posted is for someone who is in much older and with a much lower VO2max than you. On 1/20/07 your forum post listed your relevant values as

6'- tall
155 - lbs
34 - years old
58 - max VO2

Your 1/20/07 metabolic profile, prior to your enhanced VO2max contrasted with an in-good-shape-64-year-old-man would be as follows:





In contrast to the 64 year old example, at a fast pack heart rate of 124, you would be burning 417C per hour of fat (68%) and 166C per hour of CHO (27%). Assume a 1,200 glycogen store from a conventional breakfast and dinner. I don’t have your waist measurement to calculate your % of body fat but I will assume that your are a typical athlete that can count on a reserve of up to 100,000 calories in the form of stored fatty acids. That’s enough, if you could process it all, to fuel a run from Portland, Oregon to Los Angeles, California-a distance of almost 1000 miles. In other words having enough fat for fast packing is not an issue.

You would need less than 1 gel packet per hour or less than ½ the gel packets per hour and smaller gel packets as the representative 64 year old athlete would require. The calculation is as follows:

166 CHO C per hour * 20 hrs = 3,320 CHO C per day required
1,200 C in glycogen storage from a conventional dinner
3,320 – 1,200 = 2,120 CHO C needed to consume during the day
2,120 / 20 hrs = 106 C per hour in CHO needed

Edited by richard295 on 08/15/2007 09:59:11 MDT.