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Tony Beasley
(tbeasley) - MLife

Locale: Pigeon House Mt from the Castle
Re: Should BPL go metric? on 08/05/2007 18:01:16 MDT Print View

Thanks again for the constructive debate. I can sense a “I wish America was metric” coming into the debate. Australia went metric some 35 years ago and even though some people thought it would the world did not end it only became easier.

I will confess this: After 35 years of living with the metric system I still sometimes think in Imperial, psi, half inch, thousands of an inch, 100 degrees on a hot day, a pint of milk, 12 inch ruler. I have used and still use imperial machines to machine metric sizes and metric machines to machine imperial sizes, my old lathe at home where I do my MYOG stoves is in both measurement systems and I can only cut Imperial TPI threads on it so some of my stoves only have Imperial threads. The screw canister thread is Imperial. It will probably take another generation before Australia is truly metric.

I would be interested to know for this debate what is the ratio of national to international BPL members.

Shawn sorry if you feel offended by my metric only comment it was put there to start a debate not to offend. I will change my position a bit “I would like BPL to be metric based” eg. all first measurements in metric. I have no problems with the Imperial or US units being places along side as long as that unit has been defined as such. Eg US cup, US fluid ounce etc. Shawn in my MYOG stove testing 8 or 10 x1.16ml can add up to enough error to mask a small improvement in efficiency.

I would also like to see metric standards set for testing purposes, eg for a stove tests 500ml or (2.113 US cups) 1000ml (4.2266 US cups) of water used, Kg, grams for weight and Grams and mL for amounts of fuel used.

To get my point across can forum users following this debate please convert to metric units and post results of this stove testing result for me.

I used 1 oz of alcohol to boil 2 cups of water from 20C.

Tony

Shawn Basil
(Bearpaw) - F

Locale: Southeast
Who wrote the review? on 08/05/2007 18:25:42 MDT Print View

Considering that most of the BPL staff are Americans (Roger Caffin is the only one who comes to mind who is not), you can expect them to use American units, versus the tiny difference with UK measurements. Thus,

"I used 1 oz of alcohol to boil 2 cups of water from 20C."

readily becomes

"I used 1 oz (29 ml) of alcohol to boil 2 cups (.47 L) of water from 20C (68 F)."

These are firmly established, trade-legal measurements, not the arm-length measurements of a couple of centuries ago. Even my Snow Peak mug, a Japanese company, is marked with fl. oz. gradations as well as metric ml. There is more than enough room for both systems.

Edited by Bearpaw on 08/05/2007 22:27:24 MDT.

Doug Johnson
(djohnson) - MLife

Locale: Washington State
Re: The issue is EXCLUSION of standard units on 08/05/2007 22:10:40 MDT Print View

Hey- thanks for the help Shawn. We're a publication here to privide information about ultralight backpacking and to provide community to this group. Of course we have to provide information in a format that is applicable to the greatest number of people. Otherwise, we would be exclusive. It would be awful for BPL to force a certain system of measurement when both can be easily expressed so as to be inclusive of a larger group. Sure, we don't measure in stones, use Mayan numerology, or offer translation in Kiche' but standand and metric, that's a slam dunk.

Just as we need to be inclusive of all backpackers and allow others to "hike their own hike", we need to present information that is understandable to the greatest majority of readers possible.

I love metric, though. As my Grandpa used to say, "when we come to power, Doug, we'll set everything straight."

:-)

Brett .
(Brett1234) - F

Locale: CA
very well said Shawn on 08/05/2007 23:02:18 MDT Print View

The comments of the crucible of change for an occupied nation are quite true. America as a country will not change to SI because no one will force us to and it is an unpopular conversion.
I will use dual systems or provide a conversion factor for my posts most of the time; whenever possible.

Tony Beasley
(tbeasley) - MLife

Locale: Pigeon House Mt from the Castle
Shawn part of the answer to the question on 08/06/2007 00:31:14 MDT Print View

Hi Shawn part of the answer to the question

"I used 1 oz of alcohol to boil 2 cups of water from 20C."

If I asked : 1 oz of alcohol to boil 16 US fl oz of water from 20C, would this give the same result as your previous answer

“oz” is a standard unit for mass or weight.

1 oz = 28.3495g of alcohol which = 35.885ml

Your 29 ml is the value of a US fl oz
1 US fl oz = 29.574 ml
1 UK fl oz = 28.421 ml


Tony

Edited by tbeasley on 08/06/2007 15:55:59 MDT.

Arapiles .
(Arapiles) - M

Locale: Melbourne
BPL does do both ... on 08/07/2007 07:10:27 MDT Print View

... metric and imperial ... but the metric is occasionally wrong. I see the same on some US gear sites, so its probably a mix of unfamiliarity and bad conversion programmes.

Brett - I'm in Tokyo next week - are you around?

Arapiles .
(Arapiles) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Yarigatake on 08/07/2007 07:13:42 MDT Print View

By the way, by the way - I'm in Kamikochi and went up Yari this morning ....

Brett .
(Brett1234) - F

Locale: CA
Yes, in Tokyo on 08/07/2007 08:54:01 MDT Print View

Arapiles, Yes, I'll be in Tokyo also; PM me and we'll meet. And darn it, I had to cancel my Yari trip due to Typhoon#4. Its on my list for September now.. I want to hear about it please..

Ben 2 World
(ben2world) - MLife

Locale: So Cal
Please Leave the Empire Out of This!!! on 08/07/2007 14:36:13 MDT Print View

Folks -- our American system is derived from the English system -- but it is absolutely different from the British imperial system! Britain developed and adopted the imperial system in 1824 -- well after the US became independent. Never, never, never interchange the two! As you can see, the terms may be the same, but the measurements are completely different:

1 US fluid ounce = 1/128th of an US gallon
1 imperial fluid ounce = 1/160th of an imperial gallon
1 US gallon = 0.83 imperial gallon

Arapiles .
(Arapiles) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Re: Yes, in Tokyo on 08/07/2007 18:02:13 MDT Print View

Hi Brett

What's your address? Mine's XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

I will probably be in Tokyo tomorrow and then probably a couple of days next week and the week after. Leaving Japan on the 25th.

Edited by Arapiles on 05/30/2013 18:23:26 MDT.

Brett .
(Brett1234) - F

Locale: CA
Ben,Should BPL go metric? on 08/07/2007 20:00:38 MDT Print View

Ben,
Thanks for making the case for metric even stronger; confusing, isn't it! Glad I hardly use it anymore.

Brett .
(Brett1234) - F

Locale: CA
Arapiles re; Tokyo on 08/07/2007 20:03:30 MDT Print View

Arapiles, email sent. For some reason clicking on member names does NOT bring me to their page. This has been broken since the new website went up. So, I can not send you a PM..
Im hiking this weekend and back on Tuesday. We could meet anwhere along yamanote-sen?

Edited by Brett1234 on 08/09/2007 22:36:34 MDT.

Ben 2 World
(ben2world) - MLife

Locale: So Cal
Hybrid System on 08/07/2007 21:41:45 MDT Print View

Brett:

I'm a total mutt when it comes to measurements. I mostly prefer English, with the glaring exception of temperature. I love Celsius and absolutely hate Fahrenheit.

But when it comes to floor area, I can't think in either English or Metric. Square feet and square meters do nothing for me. I much prefer the Taiwanese ping -- which I understand is derived from the Japanese -- where one ping equals three standard tatami mats. Tell me how many pings your apartment has, and I will have an instant feel for its size! :)

Edited by ben2world on 08/07/2007 21:43:53 MDT.

Peter McDonough
(crazypete) - F

Locale: Above the Divided Line
Should BPL go Metric? on 08/07/2007 23:07:38 MDT Print View

Should BPL go Metric?? NO!!

First off, SUL would no longer be less than 5 pounds. It would be some ridiculous decimal number.

I hate the metric system, and I use it all the time. If you are doing any meaningful calculations, one still has to enter in conversion factors. In the metric system, these factors are all powers of 10, meaning you can easily miss a power and have your answer be completely wrong. In the american system, one has easily memorized factors such as 5280 feet per mile. None of this ridculous 10 to the 6th nonsense.

People complain about the american system because they are incapable of memorizing the factors of conversion. After you do memorize them, the system becomes less error prone because incorrect factors are much easier to identify.

And that is why we should NOT have the metric system on BPL.

Tony Beasley
(tbeasley) - MLife

Locale: Pigeon House Mt from the Castle
re:Crazy pete's 5 pounder on 08/08/2007 03:26:00 MDT Print View

"First off, SUL would no longer be less than 5 pounds. It would be some ridiculous decimal number."

yes Pete 2 or 3 kilo pack sound awful.

"memorized factors such as 5280 feet per mile. None of this ridculous 10 to the 6th nonsense."

I never looked at the metric system that way, I won't need my fingers anymore.

Tony

Edited by tbeasley on 08/08/2007 16:17:43 MDT.

Arapiles .
(Arapiles) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Re: Should BPL go Metric? on 08/08/2007 07:26:35 MDT Print View

"First off, SUL would no longer be less than 5 pounds. It would be some ridiculous decimal number."

Isn't 5 a decimal?:)

Edited by Arapiles on 08/08/2007 07:34:08 MDT.

Ben 2 World
(ben2world) - MLife

Locale: So Cal
One Issue About Converting to Metric on 08/08/2007 10:54:07 MDT Print View

Crazy Pete does touch upon a valid issue -- which in my mind is one major impediment to conversion.

It is absolutely stupid to buy milk that comes in 1 gallon/3.7854 liter or 1 quart/0.9464 liter sizes. Nobody will put up with "decimals" like that.

If we are serious about changing, then we will have to change everything. Containers, product weights, etc. should all be re-sized / reconfigured to metric. Milk, as an example, should come in 1L or 4L containers. That means, of course, that crates will need to be resized as well. And when we buy gear and add up the base weight, we can brag about 2 kilo SUL -- no "decimals".

Yes, it will be horribly expensive... but also hugely effective. The way we have done it the last 30 years is also horribly expensive (cumulatively) but totally ineffective -- a waste of both money and effort with little results to show.

Take a "third world" country like Turkey. In 1924, their president decreed that the Arabic script be abandoned and the Roman alphabet adopted. His ministers pleaded with him to "do it in phases" -- there wasn't a single printing press in the entire country that could print in the Roman script! The president simply refused to budge. As a result, not a single book was published for an entire year. But then, starting in 1926, the whole country made the transition successfully. One year. That was all it took!

Amazing what one can do -- when NOT given a choice! We are a democracy. I say let Congress decide once and for all. Either we stay put -- or we make a dash for it. But once decided, we take no half-measures.

Edited by ben2world on 08/08/2007 11:00:34 MDT.

Richard Matthews
(food) - F

Locale: Colorado Rockies
sports records on 08/08/2007 14:25:20 MDT Print View

I hope the new backetball hoop will be 4 meters rather than 3. A 100 meter rushing day in football will be an even more impressive feat, but will leave many records frozen in time. In time no one will understand Roger Bannisters accomplishment.

larry savage
(pyeyo) - F

Locale: pacific northwest
ah heck,let's go archaic on 08/08/2007 21:45:03 MDT Print View

A system of measurement has to be coherent and consistent to be considered a system, english measurement isn't even considered a recognized system, even the US gov. labels it US Customary Units. A coherent system uses one base unit to measure a property, meter for length versus inch,foot,yard,mile,rod,furlong in the English system.
And a consistent system requires that a name not be duplicated like the way ounces can be troy or avoirdupois or a measurement of mass,volume, or weightIt's for reasons like this that the English method is not even considered a ststem.
I say what the heck let's go archaic and measure in slugs and stones, don't even get me going about time with astronomy based seconds and minutes and hours and days and years and then ....we go "metric" with a century and millineum. Now I gotta go buy some 5cm by 10cms and then go hike ten thousand shakus.

Edited by pyeyo on 08/08/2007 21:49:51 MDT.

Peter McDonough
(crazypete) - F

Locale: Above the Divided Line
Metric on 08/08/2007 22:37:05 MDT Print View

What I don't understand is everyone's fascination with the metric system. Do yall want to switch over just because the rest of the world uses it? Half of the world is socialist--should we import that political philosophy as well? We are all familiar with our own system of measurement. We do not wish for a change that would bring hardship upon ourselves. We do not care if the rest of the world uses a different system. Converting between the two isn't all that difficult, and thus, for matters of everyday life in the US, I will use the American system. I prefer not to move zeros around in scientific notation.