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Titanium Sand/Snow Stakes
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Lawson Kline
(Mountainfitter) - M

Locale: LawsonEquipment.com
Titanium Sand/Snow Stakes on 03/23/2014 17:32:34 MDT Print View

Hey Everyone,

I wanted to see if there was an interest in my titanium sand/snow stakes? I made myself a set a few years back and they work great. Now that I am working to increase my product line, I wanted to see if there was any interest in selling them. I know we are coming out of the winter season but they work great in sand too.. Actually that's really what I originally designed them for. These are the "small" UL ones. They are 5" long x 3" wide and weigh 19.5 grams (.68oz) each which is equal in weight to 3 quarters and 1 penny for those of you who don't have a gram scale. Not sure on pricing just yet, but my goal price point is $10-$12 each.. So all that said, is there any interest?

Thanks,
Lawson

Sand/Snow Tent Stake Lawson Equipment

Matt Weaver
(norcalweaver) - F

Locale: PacNW
Re: Titanium Sand/Snow Stakes on 03/23/2014 18:52:27 MDT Print View

I'd take a set of those.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Titanium Sand/Snow Stakes on 03/23/2014 20:20:58 MDT Print View

Hi lawson

Can I suggest you do NOT put all those holes in the stakes for snow? You don't save much weight, and the holes can make them really hard to extract. I put no holes in my Ti stakes.

Cheers

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Titanium Sand/Snow Stakes on 03/23/2014 20:50:24 MDT Print View

"Can I suggest you do NOT put all those holes in the stakes for snow?"

Agreed. I'd be up for a set without the big holes (only the two small holes along the center line).

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Titanium Sand/Snow Stakes on 03/23/2014 21:22:46 MDT Print View

I've made my own snow anchors like this out of aluminum, never titanium, although they were about 50% larger. At least for those, I felt like the holes were very important. Roger said that the holes would make them hard to extract. Yes, that is exactly the point. I want those suckers frozen in solidly so that the wind can't pull them out. Now, if I really really need to extract them, then prying them with an ice axe always did the trick. The aluminum ones were thick enough that they could be pounded in with a rock or with an ice axe. Although the titanium ones would be thinner, I think they still need to be that strong. So, which titanium alloy are we talking about?

For the vendor, this doesn't matter, but for the user, I recommend running a steel wire or steel cable through the two small center holes and tie to it that way.

--B.G.--

michael levi
(M.L) - F

Locale: W-Never Eat Soggy (W)affles
Re: Re: Titanium Sand/Snow Stakes on 03/23/2014 22:04:56 MDT Print View

For sure, but when I first opened this thread I thought the weight was going to be like .3oz. What gauge ti are you using? Any chance of getting these really light?

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Re: Titanium Sand/Snow Stakes on 03/23/2014 22:12:19 MDT Print View

"weigh 19.5 grams (.68oz) each"

Isn't that what Lawson estimated? Where did 0.3 ounce come from?

--B.G.--

michael levi
(M.L) - F

Locale: W-Never Eat Soggy (W)affles
Re: Re: Re: Re: Titanium Sand/Snow Stakes on 03/23/2014 22:21:39 MDT Print View

" Where did 0.3 ounce come from?"

My dreams, white sand, small bikinis, light stakes.

Kenda Willey
(sonderlehrer)
Re: Titanium sand/snow stakes on 03/23/2014 22:27:55 MDT Print View

I'd take a set.

Stuart .
(lotuseater) - M

Locale: 40°N,-105°W-ish
Re: Titanium Sand/Snow Stakes on 03/23/2014 22:44:07 MDT Print View

Having trashed a Hilleberg snow and sand peg on its first use last night, I'm up for an alternative. Let me know what the decision is for holes / no holes, and whether you plan to include steel cable or similar as Bob suggests above.

Lawson Kline
(Mountainfitter) - M

Locale: LawsonEquipment.com
Thanks on 03/24/2014 08:22:13 MDT Print View

Thanks for all the feedback : )

The weight is as low as I would be comfortably going and still putting my name on them. For these stakes I used .020" Grade 5 6AL-4V Titanium Sheet. I tested .016" which I found to be way to thin, flexible and weak. I also tested .025" which I found to be really burly and stiff. Probably the perfect blend of weight and strength.. But to be honest, I am concerned the extra 4 grams (23.5 grams/.80oz total) will turn people off...??

As far as the holes go, its kind of a catch 22. The holes give the stakes better holding power in snow and less holding power in sand. But stakes with no holes work good in snow and stakes with holes work good in sand.. So while there is a difference I can't say its huge... So I guess it depends on what your going to use them mainly for.. I had thought about doing both stakes with holes and without holes but I am not sure I want to make so many different versions especially since I plan to make larger ones as well, so I think I might go with whatever is more popular or what more people want..??

As far as cables go. I think this would be a user installed thing as everyone is going to want something different and it would really jack up the cost of the stakes.. Another option is to use my Ironwire cord or any full Dyneema type cord and double it up through the holes. This is what I do and it works great with no issues what so ever.. Let me see if I can figure out a way to take a photo of what I am talking about..

Edited by Mountainfitter on 03/24/2014 08:25:41 MDT.

USA Duane Hall
(hikerduane) - F

Locale: Extreme northern Sierra Nevada
Titanium Sand/Snow Stakes on 03/24/2014 14:03:12 MDT Print View

Measuring SMC's against these. 1.65 oz. I'll have to calculate the footprint.
Duane

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Thanks on 03/25/2014 00:11:36 MDT Print View

Hi Lawson

0.020" ~= 0.5 mm. Yeah, that's about what I used. Maybe 0.55 mm.

Now, the holes. A couple of things to consider here. A big thing is the type of snow and the overnight temperatures expected. So much depends on that. But first ...

Some basic physics. Snow will bond to the surface of aluminium - actually to the very thin layer of aluminium oxide. It will bond very well in fact. Translation: you may need a sledge hammer to get the stakes out in the morning if the snow was at all near melting in the late afternoon. They may be rock solid!

It's all very well to say you can use an ice axe, but we don't carry ice axes when XC skiing. You can stomp on the top edge with a (ski) boot, but you risk crumpling the edge of the aluminium. That bond can be really strong.

So we move to titanium, for TWO reasons. The first is that Ti alloy is stronger than aluminium. It is denser too, but the greater strength means you can use a thinner gauge. The second reason for using Ti is that it does NOT bond to snow the same way. It will stick slightly, but not rock solid. Provided you insert the anchor at the correct angle (and you would be silly to not do this), then the Ti anchor will hold very well - just as well. But a slight tap can break the bond and the Ti stake can then be extracted fairly easily.

Now, what happens when you put those holes in? Well, if the snow is at -15 C, nothing. Big deal. But if the snow was slightly wet when you camped - and that happens a lot in Oz, then the snow can freeze overnight through the holes. That makes the stake extremely hard to get out, usually needing an ice axe or worse. The thing is, you just don't need that anchoring through the holes bit if you put the stake in correctly.

OK, cables through the holes. Beware the sharp edges on cut Ti sheet!!! Read When Things Go Wrong for some real-life graphic descriptions of what cut Ti sheet can do to Spectra! Cut right through!

Steel cable would be OK, or aluminium eyelets or pop rivets through the holes if you want to use synthetic string. I do the latter: it's much lighter. Then I use a loop of 200 (or 300) lb Spectra fishing line through the holes, with little Ti wire hooks. The fishing line is quite strong enough for extraction, and the loops weight very little.

heers

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Titanium Sand/Snow Stakes on 03/25/2014 00:16:24 MDT Print View

"Measuring SMC's against these. 1.65 oz."

My 6-hole SMC aluminum is 9.4 inches long is 1.1 oz.

Strange.

--B.G.--

USA Duane Hall
(hikerduane) - F

Locale: Extreme northern Sierra Nevada
Titanium Sand/Snow Stakes on 03/25/2014 06:48:34 MDT Print View

My SMC's are 11.25" to 11.50" long depending on amount the top is hammered down by rocks. :) 1.50" wide.
Duane

Jeff Gerke
(mtnrunner) - M

Locale: Utah
Stakes on 03/25/2014 14:57:29 MDT Print View

I would be interested in a set.

Lawson Kline
(Mountainfitter) - M

Locale: LawsonEquipment.com
Holes vs. No Holes on 03/25/2014 15:22:02 MDT Print View

So to all the people that are interested. Do you want holes or no holes?

As Roger said, the holes do help the stakes to freeze in place but can be problematic to remove in wet snow conditions. So depending on how you look at it, the holes can be a good thing or can be a bad thing. One thing I did find is stakes with no holes work alot better in soft sugar sand. In softer dirt/soils, there is no difference either way..

Let me post some more photos of stakes I have made. You tell me what you like and don't like... as feedback would be great.

Thanks again,
Lawson

KEN LARSON
(KENLARSON) - MLife

Locale: Western Michigan
Sand/Snow T-Anchor on 03/25/2014 16:00:05 MDT Print View

Two other anchors to think about.....again Alpine Designed.

t anchor




SMC Snow Anchor

Model #: 164000 (small)
164100 (large) UIAA Certified
Material: High Quality Aluminum
Finish: Natural
Dimensions: small: 7.5” x 4.48”
large: 10.25” x 5.98”
Weight: 7.2 oz. (211 g)
10 oz. ( 296g)

Like the SMC I Pickets, the finish is “natural” resulting in a more
secure placement than comparable powder-coated or anodized anchors and
flukes. The angle of the 1/8” diameter steel cable harness attachment enables
the Snow Anchor to dive deeper when loaded, piling up snow ahead of it as
it sets into place, while the holes provide a good bite on the snow. Bigger is
sometimes better, so if you want maximum holding power in extreme conditions
or have a condo-sized mountaineering tent, then a large Snow Anchor may be
your best choice.

Edited by KENLARSON on 03/25/2014 16:00:50 MDT.

Jeff Gerke
(mtnrunner) - M

Locale: Utah
Holes or No Holes on 03/26/2014 21:04:09 MDT Print View

I think I would lean towards having holes but I would buy some either way. Is there anyway you could do both?

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Holes vs. No Holes on 03/26/2014 21:07:35 MDT Print View

No holes for me.