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John Abela
(JohnAbela) - MLife

Locale: www.hikelighter.com
Re: 900 for life? on 03/17/2014 21:41:21 MDT Print View

Michael L: I would rather have 900!


I would rather NOT have 900fp down!

Myself and MANY others have been saying for the last few years that 900fp down wets out WAY to easily. In raining regions 900fp down is just hell at trying to keep from getting damp and starting to cluster up on you. Even in the desert during the cold seasons when you get frost at night a 900fp down bag can become saturated and start to clump.

This is not a comment against Michael, but rather against 900fp down being used.

Sure, it might be ok for weekenders but for long distance hikes 900fp down is just not the way to go IMVHO/FWIW. Stick with 800fp or 850fp. For whatever reason the difference between 850fp and 900fp is rather drastic when it comes to the down becoming saturated and clumping up on you. Got no "scientific" proof of this... just a whole lot of nights out on the trail... and as I said, I am far from the only person saying this over the last few years.

Stuart .
(lotuseater) - M

Locale: Where the air is thin
WM on 03/17/2014 22:26:37 MDT Print View

"seen new bags from WM lately ?"

"No innovation from them, I havent even seen a quilt from them."

How about the Terralite? It's the first bag in the Extremelite range that unzips all the way around the foot to allow it to be opened fully, quilt style. It's also cut wide at the hip to better accommodate side sleepers.

It may not be your idea of an innovation, but it is an extension of their product line.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: WM Innovation on 03/18/2014 01:17:43 MDT Print View

In case everyone didn't get the email, quilts are a niche market. If I was WM, I wouldn't enter that market either.

What innovations are to be had for sleeping bags/quilts? First would be insulation, which is what this thread is about. I find it interesting that some companies have jumped on the waterproof down and are now selling it in their offerings with no proven track record.

Perhaps they just want your money any way they can get it.

I don't know if WM has an official position regarding waterproof down, but if they are taking a "wait and see" stance, I view that as a responsible way to approach it instead of jumping on the bandwagon and ending up with dissatisfied customers.

michael levi
(M.L) - F

Locale: W-Never Eat Soggy (W)affles
Re: Re: 900 for life? on 03/18/2014 01:25:12 MDT Print View

"Stick with 800fp or 850fp."

John Aleba, I went with 900 with my Zpacks quilt. I see what your saying and agree with you, but with my 30deg rating I'm not in cold, or damp and humid conditions that much.

With a bag that costs that much saving weight and keeping it ultralight is important me. it's only an ounce saved but still.

Mark S
(gixer) - F - M
Terralite not new on 03/18/2014 03:38:11 MDT Print View

"How about the Terralite? It's the first bag in the Extremelite range that unzips all the way around the foot to allow it to be opened fully, quilt style. It's also cut wide at the hip to better accommodate side sleepers.

It may not be your idea of an innovation, but it is an extension of their product line."

Stuart the Terralight has been sold here in Europe under the "Lets move" brand for around 15 years

James Marco
(jamesdmarco) - MLife

Locale: Finger Lakes
Re: Re: WM Innovation on 03/18/2014 06:47:27 MDT Print View

I agree with Nick. I would not expect WM to immediatly jump into any fairly new market. They are slow to innovate. That was never their interest. Their focus was to produce high quality sleeping bags. They did not innovate anything.

Nanatak is more innovative. I think they were one of the first companies to embrace quilts and half bags, more popular in mountaineering/climbing circles. They are much more innovative, but quilts/half bags were popular before they started manufacturing. Again, they don't really innovate, invent, test and market beta models.

Feathered Friends is about the same. They never liked to innovate. They took some tried and true products and simply made high quality varients. Again, walking bags, couples bags, etc have been around a while.

Z packs, EE, et al are even newer companies who use newer technologies as THEIR selling point. But is this ever really new? Yeah, DriDown is new enough, we still have 8 years to go before anything can be said about it as far as durability. Cuben is not the best for bags, anyway. Again, they don't have much to offer, so DriDown or 900FP is about it. But, Even Nunatak admits that 900FP down degrades more than lower fill 750 or 800FP down. The initial weight *might* be an ounce less, with more degradion over the course of a night.

DiDown and ilk are still too new for any to say, good or bad. Yes, the feathers resist water takeup for an hour or two. Tested and proven. Question: Why would this help? I try NOT to get my bag wet. Indeed, I choose fair to good ground to sleep on. I use a tarp. I try NOT to get stuff wet. Even if I dump my canoe, my sleeping gear is in dry bags. Most of my planning, and about a pound of my carry weight, is dedicated to staying dry through three days of torrential rains. Even with DriDown, this would not change. I try to sleep for 7 hours at a time, not for <2. The effect of DriDown on my gear is to pay extra for the treatment, since, I would buy a base 800fp down anyway.

The believe the increased loft associated with DriDown is due to changes in the surface nature of the static charges of the plumes, forcing the down to loft higher. Easy to test for with the current standards, since it is dried pretty thuroughly. But this fails in any sort of real world damp conditions because the charges can dispate before doing any usefull work, ie, seperating fibers in the plume. Down does this naturally, of course. Down bags in general will loft higher if clean and freshly dried. I have dried my bags maybe 50-75 times, they ALWAYS loft higher than when I got them new for the first night. Are they any warmer? Well, no, not really, since this effect disipates with contact, especially with my body. I believe DriDown, and ilk, is a gimmick, and not a true, real world improvement in down. It just tests at a higher loft. I think WM, FF, Nunatak, and others that DON'T use DriDown are using better knowledge and ignoring the marketing hype.

"Perhaps they just want your money any way they can get it." Ha, ha, I believe that is called wally world marketing.