Forum Index » GEAR » A Visual Paradigm for Windshirts - Multiple Axis of Understanding.-Rev 0


Display Avatars Sort By:
Jim Colten
(jcolten) - M

Locale: MN
committees: Industry motivations on 02/18/2014 07:10:28 MST Print View

Q. What do you get when a committee sets out to design a horse?
A. a camel

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: A Visual Paradigm for Windshirts - Multiple Axis of Understanding.-Rev 0 on 02/18/2014 08:00:04 MST Print View

I like the legend at the bottom that describes the 4 axes. I can understand what the four axes are and what they should be.

The XL oz and mm Thick values are approximately proportional so you could get rid of one if there was some other value you wanted to put on an axis.

That makes sense the '13-'14 Houdini is more waterproof and put provides less ventilation. 457 mm H2O is getting up towards the 1500 you say is required to be rainproof.

M90 T at 949 mm H2O would be even closer to rainproof. Too bad someone doesn't make a windshirt out of M90. Except, when does a "windshirt" become a "rain jacket"?

EVent is 30,000 mm H2O but maybe that's overkill for a shirt/jacket? 0.5 CFM (vs 0.2 CFM for M90) - that's a trick being both more waterproof and better ventilation, but maybe waterproofness gretaer than M90 doesn't add any utility if M90 is good enough. And it's heavier and maybe the membrane is not very durable.

My big problem with windshirts is they aren't rainproof, so I need a rain jacket in addition, in which case there's not much reason to have a windshirt also.

I've been playing with an M50 rain jacket. 5.5 ounces for extra long, "Napolean" pockets, front zipper, hood. I think it provides enough rain protection but I need more testing. Not very much ventilation which may be it's downfall. I wonder what the mm H2O and CFM are for M50? I see thru-hiker doesn't carry M50 (or M55) currently (anymore?) so maybe M50 is moot.

Woubeir (from Europe)
(Woubeir) - F - MLife
Re: A Visual Paradigm for Windshirts - Multiple Axis of Understanding.-Rev 0 on 02/18/2014 08:53:02 MST Print View

@Jerry
"My big problem with windshirts is they aren't rainproof, so I need a rain jacket in addition, in which case there's not much reason to have a windshirt also."
I guess that you mean it's specificly your problem, because at least for me personally, currently I wouldn't want to trade both a seperate windshell and rainshell for a unique rainshell. No WPB-material at this moment is breathable enough. Maybe in the future ... let's hope. OK, that's heavier. So what.

Dan Durston
(dandydan) - M

Locale: Cascadia
RD WIndshirt on 02/18/2014 09:18:50 MST Print View

"@Dan–Curious what size you went for in the RD, Dan? Also, is there actually a meaningful amount of stretch? "

I'm a hair under 6 feet and 165 lbs. I went with the medium and it fits great - it's perhaps the best fitting garment I have. The torso length and sleeves are on the longer side, while the overall fit is slim. This is exactly how I like my shirts. I can toss a fleece or 3-season down jacket on underneath.

Stockier guys may not find it suitable, as they'd need to size up and then have really long sleeves.

There is a decent amount of stretch. It's certainly noticeable.

RD Windshirt

The hood seals well around the face, so it's extremely functional during bug season or when you just want to keep the wind at bay.
RD Windshirt hood

Edited by dandydan on 02/18/2014 09:23:00 MST.

Paul Hatfield
(clear_blue_skies) - F
MEC RD Windshell Jacket on 02/18/2014 13:24:17 MST Print View

It's great to see some actual test numbers. Thank you very much, Richard. A SOTM report by backpackinglight would be ideal, but if you are open to testing a few more jackets with wide appeal, or that are of particular interest to you, please let us know, and maybe we could send them to you with a postage-paid return envelope.

We might want to stock up on MEC RD Windshell Jackets before they ruin them, Houdini style. Luckily for my wallet, the green one is out of stock in medium.

Daryl Daryl
(lyrad1) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest, USA, Earth
Re: A Visual Paradigm for Windshirts - Multiple Axis of Understanding.-Rev 0 on 02/18/2014 14:26:12 MST Print View

Richard,

Thanks for all the good work and info.

I'm finding that I prefer to refer to the table instead of the graph. Not sure why. It's just the way I think I guess.

Edited by lyrad1 on 02/18/2014 16:04:01 MST.

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Windshirt = shirt ≠ jacket ≠ rain shell. on 02/18/2014 14:51:02 MST Print View

"My big problem with windshirts is they aren't rainproof, so I need a rain jacket in addition, in which case there's not much reason to have a windshirt also."

If you think if a windshirt as a shirt, used like you would use a button down shirt, I think it is easier see the uses. If it has a hood and other jacket like features, so much the better, but it is still worn like a shirt. It provides the final seal to my base layer and/or midlayer choices, which provide little or no wind protection. It can also provide sun and insect protection. The DWR features are a great no-weight addition, but I'm always going to be carrying some sort of dedicated rain gear, be it jacket or poncho. BTW, a poncho makes an excellent pairing with a windshirt.

And that the the reason for all the beefing about breathability. If I want waterproof and sweaty, the niche is well covered (no pun).

These discussions do get down the the core principles for UL gear: I want the utmost performance for the weight with as many uses as possible.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Windshirt = shirt ≠ jacket ≠ rain shell. on 02/18/2014 15:19:58 MST Print View

I don't want to derail this thread onto windshirt pro/con argument

Richard's chart (or table) does help figure out which items make sense for me to take on different trips

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
A Visual Paradigm for Windshirts - Multiple Axis of Understanding.-Rev .1 on 02/18/2014 23:51:03 MST Print View

One well known quote of Albert Einstein’s is: “If you can't explain something simply, you don't know enough about it.” Thanks to your constructive comments, I have an opportunity to compare windshirts more simply.

1.1

2

3.1

4.1a

5

Edited by richard295 on 02/19/2014 11:51:56 MST.

Serge G.
(sgiachetti) - M

Locale: Boulder, CO
rd on 02/19/2014 00:20:10 MST Print View

Thanks for the feedback on the RD, Dan. I have a few windshirts I like a lot, but the fit is not great on any of them. The MEC T2 in a medium is the best fitting baselayer I've found for my 6'2" 170 frame, which seems to have the same style fit as the RD.

Thanks for the revamp on the diagram, Richard. I mentioned it in a pm to you, but I'd be glad to lend my rap alpine, made of equilibrium, if there is collective interest. I'd be curious to see what Dave C.'s BD alpine start is as well, but I doubt will be tearing that one away from him anytime soon.

Daryl Daryl
(lyrad1) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest, USA, Earth
Re: A Visual Paradigm for Windshirts - Multiple Axis of Understanding.-Rev .1 on 02/19/2014 08:59:43 MST Print View

Richard,

Is the regain % of polypropylene similar to Terylene?

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Re: A Visual Paradigm for Windshirts - Multiple Axis of Understanding.-Rev .1 on 02/19/2014 09:43:51 MST Print View

Daryl,

Polypropylene, aka polyolefin, has 0.05% regain where the vertical 65% RH line is. In the chart it would be superimposed on top of the x-axis and not visible. The low-cost DriDucks and Frogg Toggs jackets use this material type.

Edited by richard295 on 02/19/2014 09:47:59 MST.

Woubeir (from Europe)
(Woubeir) - F - MLife
Re: Re: Re: A Visual Paradigm for Windshirts - Multiple Axis of Understanding.-Rev .1 on 02/19/2014 10:09:32 MST Print View

Richard,
is the moisture regain graph the representation of absorption rate/drying time ? Because I read several times that weave/knit type is more important for that then fiber nature.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Re: Re: Re: A Visual Paradigm for Windshirts - Multiple Axis of Understanding.-Rev .1 on 02/19/2014 10:46:00 MST Print View

Woubeir,

Most fabric layers are more air than fiber; so, it is the water in the spaces between the fibers and layers which are the primary determinate of saturated weight gain and inversely, the drying time. If two fabrics are the same weave / thickness but, made with different thread material, then the material with the lower regain will dry only slightly faster.

I think the original text under "mm Thick", your description, and the above alternate description all attempt to convey the same meaning. If you have a suggestion for making "mm Thick" text much clearer without being significantly more verbose, I will change it.

The primary research paper in this area said, "The main fabric property which does determine the amount of water a fabric freely picks up is thickness. Further, the time that it takes a fabric to dry is directly related to the amount of water which is in the fabric initially, the more water it holds initially, the longer it takes to dry. Finally, water evaporates more rapidly from a fabric than from a water drop of equivalent volume. This is because a fabric has a greater surface area from which the water can evaporate."

Edited by richard295 on 02/19/2014 11:01:59 MST.

Woubeir (from Europe)
(Woubeir) - F - MLife
Re: Re: Re: Re: A Visual Paradigm for Windshirts - Multiple Axis of Understanding.-Rev .1 on 02/19/2014 11:49:32 MST Print View

Richard,
I have to admit that I hadn't read those. For me that's, now I have, clear enough. But, of course, I can't speak for others.

Edited by Woubeir on 02/22/2014 15:28:54 MST.

Daryl Daryl
(lyrad1) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest, USA, Earth
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A Visual Paradigm for Windshirts - Multiple Axis of Understanding.-Rev .1 on 02/19/2014 12:00:51 MST Print View

Richard,
"Most fabric layers are more air than fiber; so, it is the water in the spaces between the fibers and layers which are the primary determinate of saturated weight gain and inversely, the drying time"

If I'm understanding this correctly I think it explains why my loosely woven nylon running shorts dry more slowly than my tightly woven uncoated nylon windbreaker......even though both fabrics are about the same weight per square yard.

Benji Hons
(BenjiH) - M
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A Visual Paradigm for Windshirts - Multiple Axis of Understanding.-Rev .1 on 02/22/2014 15:11:11 MST Print View

FYI, a littl

I don't mean to get off subject, but I contacted MEC regarding the RD windshell and they told me the Women's version is discontinued, and all of the Men's colors besides black and Cara Cara (orange) are discontinued. It was unclear if the Men's version will be disco'd altogether but it did seem like it as they mentioned there will be a similar jacket to replace it but couldn't tell me for sure. So act fast... PS only black can be shipped to the US.

Jeremy M.
(JeremyNoVa) - M

Locale: NoVa
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A Visual Paradigm for Windshirts - Multiple Axis of Understanding.-Rev .1 on 02/22/2014 18:18:22 MST Print View

NM

Edited by JeremyNoVa on 02/22/2014 18:19:11 MST.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Lab Tested - RAB Alpine & Boreas on 02/22/2014 19:21:49 MST Print View

The genesis of this analysis originated with Wim Depondt in his thread http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=86498. He used coffee filters to conclude that the RAB Boreas and Pertex Equilibrium fabrics were in the range or 75 CFM or more (single layer coffee filter average).

Subsequently Serge G. said, "I mentioned it in a pm to you, but I'd be glad to lend my RAB Alpine, made of Equilibrium, if there is collective interest." I already had access to a RAB Boreas; so, here is the data. If there are subjective questions on the Alpine, please address them to Serge G. For the Boreas, ask any of the many Boreas users. I am trying to stay objective and not promote or criticize any of the windshirts.


1.5

2.3

3.3

4.1

Edited by richard295 on 02/23/2014 13:07:51 MST.

Wim Depondt
(wim_depondt) - F - MLife

Locale: The low countries
Re: Lab Tested - RAB Alpine & Boreas on 02/23/2014 00:19:21 MST Print View

Thanks Richard. Excellent new information regarding the ongoing wind shirt conundrum. I am somehow surprised of the relatively high CFM rating for the RAB Alpine. Though I have to admit anecdotal evidence confirms it: in 95% of situations that necessitate a wind shirt, the RAB Alpine is perfect, including climbing. It’s also breathable enough to belay my rain jacket over it (a big plus in miserable weather conditions). But on a cold windy ridge, it is sometimes insufficient (RE high CFM ratio).

edit: typo

Edited by wim_depondt on 02/23/2014 06:50:11 MST.