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Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
A Visual Paradigm for Windshirts - Multiple Axis of Understanding on 02/16/2014 23:56:33 MST Print View

There was a recent thread entitled “Windshirt Question”. See http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=87001&disable_pagination=1

As is common on the forum, there were a lot of dissenting opinions. About ½ ways through the thread, Paul Hatfield (clear_blue_skies) posted, “"The MEC RD Windshell Jacket has a CFM rating of 7. MEC does not carry any high rated CFM jackets." - MEC Service Centre.

This was first countered by Dan Durston (dandydan), who said, “From ample personal experience, the RD Windshell is highly breathable. It's nothing like the pseudo-plastic bag windshirts (ie. Montbell). Unless you're looking for a super DWR windshell to attempt to wear during light rains, the RD is great. Compared to the Houdini, the RD is easily more durable and breathable.”

Dan tweaked my curiosity and then Eric Chan (bearbreeder) PUSHED ME OVER THE CLIFF TO LAND ON A CLOUD OF ENLIGHTENMENT. I had never seen windshirt marketing and the resultant user psychology so honestly and clearly explained in a few words. The companion challenge was if I could explain the performance aspects as clearly and succinctly as Eric did his part. I have tried and my results are to follow after restating Eric’s post:

“the RD windshells of my partners that ive tried and the ones ive played around with at MEC are quite breathable IMO. much more so that my trail wind. as the the MB ... if its the same fabric as the EXL puffies ... well that fabric isnt "breathable" at all ...as to the "high CFM" thing ... i suspect that most "normal" people these days use their windshells as a semi-static layer or just walking around the park, so a less "breathable" windshell makes sense from a marketing perspective god forbid you get reviews on backcountry, REI or amazon saying "this $$$$ windbreaker SUCKS, it doesnt block the wind !!!" and to be quite honest, even among people who use it for higher exertion, most dont think that sweating is such a big deal anyways ... you can always walk into a warm building to dry off. if you want "guaranteed" breathability get a thin non-membrane softshell ... theyll be more durable (and heavier) to boot.

1

2.1

3

People frequently seek quick understanding by asking, "What is the best?"
Best is only known when the options can be objectively evaluated in Multiple Axis of Understanding. Has this ever been done before in an easy-to-understand way? If so, I have never seen it.

The objective of this thread is not to discuss windshirts other than those three measured and shown above. The objectives are to determine your opinions as to the most relevant windshirt characteristics to measure? Also, what is the most desirable way for that information to be presented?

Edited by richard295 on 03/01/2014 14:00:30 MST.

Roman Vazhnov
(joarr) - MLife

Locale: Russia
Re: A Visual Paradigm for Windshirts - Multiple Axis of Understanding.-Rev 0 on 02/17/2014 01:01:17 MST Print View

Those axis are good. It would be useful to measure water absorption somehow, and add it to the graph.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: A Visual Paradigm for Windshirts - Multiple Axis of Understanding.-Rev 0 on 02/17/2014 02:23:20 MST Print View

Hi Richard

Brilliant!

Cheers

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
tested on 02/17/2014 02:35:12 MST Print View

are those tested values for the MEC RD richard?

i would make it a graph with 3 variables ... weight/breathability/water-resistance, thickness doesnt matter except as a function of the weight unless it implies durability ... and i would invert the scale for the weight

that way the more area the in the graph a windshirt covers, the "better" (lighter, more breathable, more water resistant) it will be

i think most of the outdoor clothing industry is driven by marketing (and fashion) personally ... not necessarily by performance, durability or common sense

how else will they sell new shinny gear every year to people who already have still functional models of their jackets/pants/baselayers/etc ...

;)

Edited by bearbreeder on 02/17/2014 02:41:30 MST.

Woubeir (from Europe)
(Woubeir) - F - MLife
Re: A Visual Paradigm for Windshirts - Multiple Axis of Understanding.-Rev 0 on 02/17/2014 05:18:54 MST Print View

"i think most of the outdoor clothing industry is driven by marketing (and fashion) personally"

+1 (sadly enough)

Personally, I would like to see water absorption, drying time and durability and thickness might not be very usefull (unless that is like Eric already said actually an indicator of durability ).

And then (of course): a CFM of 31,5 for the MEC RD while they say only 7 and they also say they do not carry or make highly breathable windshirts themself. Any idea why this difference ?

Dan Durston
(dandydan)

Locale: Cascadia
Windshirts on 02/17/2014 06:22:27 MST Print View

Wow. This is a really cool analysis. Thanks.

It clearly reveals the difference (trade-off) between the '12 Houdini and the newer version.

I tend to agree with Eric that a single axis could be used to communicate durability. I personally prefer fabric thickness, as weight can be pretty loosely correlated with durability due to differences in feature sets.

Edited by dandydan on 02/17/2014 06:28:12 MST.

David Chenault
(DaveC) - BPL Staff - F

Locale: Crown of the Continent
Re: A Visual Paradigm for Windshirts - Multiple Axis of Understanding.-Rev 0 on 02/17/2014 09:05:21 MST Print View

Awesome Richard. I wouldn't change a thing.

Delmar O'Donnell
(Bolster)

Locale: Between Jacinto & Gorgonio
More than one dimension. on 02/17/2014 09:47:48 MST Print View

It's good to think about reality in more than one dimension! Especially if one can use a nifty radar plot.

If water resistance is generally a tradeoff with wind resistance, then I'd put those on one axis (say, vertical). If weight and thinness are usually opposed, I'd put those on the other axis (horizontal).

Edited by Bolster on 02/17/2014 09:53:12 MST.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: tested on 02/17/2014 10:08:13 MST Print View

Eric,

You said, "are those tested values for the MEC RD richard?"

The answer is yes! A few days after mulling over your post of 2/4/14, I ordered a MEC RD. After it arrived, I tested it for the variables shown.

Edited by richard295 on 02/17/2014 10:39:47 MST.

Steven Paris
(saparisor) - M

Locale: Pacific Northwest
A Visual Paradigm for Windshirts - testing on 02/17/2014 10:33:35 MST Print View

With all the hang-wringing in a recent thread, I'm almost worried to see it graphed, but I'll send you a Rab CIrrus for testing if you want or have time. No worries if you don't.

Ryan Smith
(ViolentGreen) - M

Locale: Southeast
Re: Re: tested on 02/17/2014 10:40:39 MST Print View

Good news! 31 CFM is a good number and the HH is even higher than the old Houdini. Looks like a winner even if a bit heavier than I would prefer. Not overly expensive either.

Ryan

Edited by ViolentGreen on 02/17/2014 10:42:27 MST.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
Re: Re: tested on 02/17/2014 11:18:57 MST Print View

Richard thanks for the tests and ordering one

I was pretty certain that it was fairly breathable based on the ones my partners have, the instore darth vader tests and dan's testimony

I think its good news for those who want something breathable as its cheaper than the old houdini ... Though slightly heavier

And while this might not help folks outside canada ... There is the mec no question asked warranty if you dont like it

If you need to combine shipping remember that the T2/3 are still in clearance at mec

;)

John Harper
(johnnyh88) - M

Locale: The SouthWest
Re: tested on 02/17/2014 11:37:02 MST Print View

Really nice work, Richard. I would volunteer to send you my Montane Mountain Star for testing if you'd like.

Dan Durston
(dandydan)

Locale: Cascadia
RD on 02/17/2014 11:37:11 MST Print View

The RD is a good windshirt. The hood seals well around the face to keep out bugs, so it's highly funtional in bug season. It is a bit heavier than some windshirts, but the weight is all in the fabric so you're getting a more durable garment. It's also got a nice long cut, so it doesn't ride up when you bend over.

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: Industry motivations on 02/17/2014 12:04:58 MST Print View

"i think most of the outdoor clothing industry is driven by marketing (and fashion) personally ... not necessarily by performance, durability or common sense"

The checkbook rules. Some gambles are made and there are winners and losers.

But somwhere somebody thought that the changes would increase sales, profitability on that item, or serve the whole product line better. Who knows.

Others have pointed out that these garments may be pointed to other markets than backpacking. If consumer research is done, I assumed it is pointed at use per activity: climbing, running, hiking, skiing, etc. They may be responding to data that shows the sales are dominant in areas other than hiking, with marketing and design leaning to the surveyed needs of the activities that produce larger sales. If there is more money from runners, the needs of backpackers may take second seat. The horror!

Or there was some Peter Principle of Comittee rule that kicked in and they made a dumb choice--- for our needs anyway. It has been interesting to see this slice of the outdoor market, looking at one category of clothing within one activity. Richard's contributions have really added to the science and objectivity.

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
To Eric Chan on 02/17/2014 12:08:33 MST Print View

Partially unrelated, but I feel like Eric has come dangerously close at times to being completely dismissed on BPL because of his somewhat reckless way of presenting his (often polarized) opinions.

...and I think he's one of the smartest contributors to this forum, pushing other people to substantiate their claims and keeping a "hivemind" from forming on loads of topics.

I think this is awesome, and I think I want to apologize to Eric for what I can only assume were several times I ignored or publicly denounced him over the last year (though, I don't do anything like that often). Looking back, he's usually right, usually contributes a ton, and usually does it in a way that reflects a great deal of clarity.

Cheers, mate

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
Re: To Eric Chan on 02/17/2014 12:41:34 MST Print View

No apology needed

Everyone and their bear is entitled to their say =P

Dale is correct IMO that there are markets other than backpacking

For climbing i use my trail wind as an UL belay layer ... In the summer i clip it to my harness and wear it belaying ... It acts as wind and emergency light drizzle protection

Belayed climbing is very stop and go ... Even while climbing a pitch youll try to take a decent amount of rests on technical pitches ... So breathability isnt thr biggest deal

Of course youll sweat like a hippo in a sauna on steep approaches

Im sure theres other sports like this as well

And then theres the marketing ...

;)

J Dos Antos
(Damager) - M

Locale: Redwoods of Santa Cruz Mts
Re: A Visual Paradigm for Windshirts - Multiple Axis of Understanding.-Rev 0 on 02/17/2014 17:13:12 MST Print View

Richard,

Thank you so much for all the time and effort you put into your analysis. I greatly appreciate it.

IMHO, in this case very humble, I think you nailed it with your existing criteria.

The only drawback to your awesome data is I learned my 2013 Houdini is not the product I thought I was buying based on past performance reviews from many satisfied BPL members. However, since it's my first dedicated windshirt, I have nothing else to compare it to, and honestly have found it to be adequate thus far. That MEC RD looks mighty tempting now.

Eric,

I also want to echo Max's comment and say thanks for much of the great info you have posted. I like that you present a differing opinion based on your experience. I wish I had more access to MEC gear, which I had never heard of (I'm in the US) until reading your posts.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Industry motivations on 02/17/2014 21:22:51 MST Print View

> But somwhere somebody thought that the changes would increase sales, profitability on
> that item, or serve the whole product line better.

Industry does not have motivations. Individual people do.
In this case, maybe a guy in marketing (or design) thought he had better come up with a new design for the next year so the boss doesn't think he is 'surplus to requirements'.

> Peter Principle of Committee
Quiz question: What constitues a majority on a committee?
Answer: two people coordinating and ignoring the rest.

Cheers

Serge G.
(sgiachetti) - M

Locale: Boulder, CO
nice job on 02/17/2014 22:00:11 MST Print View

Thanks for your work, Richard. Nice to have some real data to reference in these forums.

I also appreciate a lot of your insights Eric.

@Dan–Curious what size you went for in the RD, Dan? Also, is there actually a meaningful amount of stretch?

Cheers

Jim Colten
(jcolten) - M

Locale: MN
committees: Industry motivations on 02/18/2014 07:10:28 MST Print View

Q. What do you get when a committee sets out to design a horse?
A. a camel

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: A Visual Paradigm for Windshirts - Multiple Axis of Understanding.-Rev 0 on 02/18/2014 08:00:04 MST Print View

I like the legend at the bottom that describes the 4 axes. I can understand what the four axes are and what they should be.

The XL oz and mm Thick values are approximately proportional so you could get rid of one if there was some other value you wanted to put on an axis.

That makes sense the '13-'14 Houdini is more waterproof and put provides less ventilation. 457 mm H2O is getting up towards the 1500 you say is required to be rainproof.

M90 T at 949 mm H2O would be even closer to rainproof. Too bad someone doesn't make a windshirt out of M90. Except, when does a "windshirt" become a "rain jacket"?

EVent is 30,000 mm H2O but maybe that's overkill for a shirt/jacket? 0.5 CFM (vs 0.2 CFM for M90) - that's a trick being both more waterproof and better ventilation, but maybe waterproofness gretaer than M90 doesn't add any utility if M90 is good enough. And it's heavier and maybe the membrane is not very durable.

My big problem with windshirts is they aren't rainproof, so I need a rain jacket in addition, in which case there's not much reason to have a windshirt also.

I've been playing with an M50 rain jacket. 5.5 ounces for extra long, "Napolean" pockets, front zipper, hood. I think it provides enough rain protection but I need more testing. Not very much ventilation which may be it's downfall. I wonder what the mm H2O and CFM are for M50? I see thru-hiker doesn't carry M50 (or M55) currently (anymore?) so maybe M50 is moot.

Woubeir (from Europe)
(Woubeir) - F - MLife
Re: A Visual Paradigm for Windshirts - Multiple Axis of Understanding.-Rev 0 on 02/18/2014 08:53:02 MST Print View

@Jerry
"My big problem with windshirts is they aren't rainproof, so I need a rain jacket in addition, in which case there's not much reason to have a windshirt also."
I guess that you mean it's specificly your problem, because at least for me personally, currently I wouldn't want to trade both a seperate windshell and rainshell for a unique rainshell. No WPB-material at this moment is breathable enough. Maybe in the future ... let's hope. OK, that's heavier. So what.

Dan Durston
(dandydan)

Locale: Cascadia
RD WIndshirt on 02/18/2014 09:18:50 MST Print View

"@Dan–Curious what size you went for in the RD, Dan? Also, is there actually a meaningful amount of stretch? "

I'm a hair under 6 feet and 165 lbs. I went with the medium and it fits great - it's perhaps the best fitting garment I have. The torso length and sleeves are on the longer side, while the overall fit is slim. This is exactly how I like my shirts. I can toss a fleece or 3-season down jacket on underneath.

Stockier guys may not find it suitable, as they'd need to size up and then have really long sleeves.

There is a decent amount of stretch. It's certainly noticeable.

RD Windshirt

The hood seals well around the face, so it's extremely functional during bug season or when you just want to keep the wind at bay.
RD Windshirt hood

Edited by dandydan on 02/18/2014 09:23:00 MST.

Paul Hatfield
(clear_blue_skies) - F
MEC RD Windshell Jacket on 02/18/2014 13:24:17 MST Print View

It's great to see some actual test numbers. Thank you very much, Richard. A SOTM report by backpackinglight would be ideal, but if you are open to testing a few more jackets with wide appeal, or that are of particular interest to you, please let us know, and maybe we could send them to you with a postage-paid return envelope.

We might want to stock up on MEC RD Windshell Jackets before they ruin them, Houdini style. Luckily for my wallet, the green one is out of stock in medium.

Daryl Daryl
(lyrad1) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest, USA, Earth
Re: A Visual Paradigm for Windshirts - Multiple Axis of Understanding.-Rev 0 on 02/18/2014 14:26:12 MST Print View

Richard,

Thanks for all the good work and info.

I'm finding that I prefer to refer to the table instead of the graph. Not sure why. It's just the way I think I guess.

Edited by lyrad1 on 02/18/2014 16:04:01 MST.

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Windshirt = shirt ≠ jacket ≠ rain shell. on 02/18/2014 14:51:02 MST Print View

"My big problem with windshirts is they aren't rainproof, so I need a rain jacket in addition, in which case there's not much reason to have a windshirt also."

If you think if a windshirt as a shirt, used like you would use a button down shirt, I think it is easier see the uses. If it has a hood and other jacket like features, so much the better, but it is still worn like a shirt. It provides the final seal to my base layer and/or midlayer choices, which provide little or no wind protection. It can also provide sun and insect protection. The DWR features are a great no-weight addition, but I'm always going to be carrying some sort of dedicated rain gear, be it jacket or poncho. BTW, a poncho makes an excellent pairing with a windshirt.

And that the the reason for all the beefing about breathability. If I want waterproof and sweaty, the niche is well covered (no pun).

These discussions do get down the the core principles for UL gear: I want the utmost performance for the weight with as many uses as possible.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Windshirt = shirt ≠ jacket ≠ rain shell. on 02/18/2014 15:19:58 MST Print View

I don't want to derail this thread onto windshirt pro/con argument

Richard's chart (or table) does help figure out which items make sense for me to take on different trips

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
A Visual Paradigm for Windshirts - Multiple Axis of Understanding.-Rev .1 on 02/18/2014 23:51:03 MST Print View

One well known quote of Albert Einstein’s is: “If you can't explain something simply, you don't know enough about it.” Thanks to your constructive comments, I have an opportunity to compare windshirts more simply.

1.1

2

3.1

4.1a

5

Edited by richard295 on 02/19/2014 11:51:56 MST.

Serge G.
(sgiachetti) - M

Locale: Boulder, CO
rd on 02/19/2014 00:20:10 MST Print View

Thanks for the feedback on the RD, Dan. I have a few windshirts I like a lot, but the fit is not great on any of them. The MEC T2 in a medium is the best fitting baselayer I've found for my 6'2" 170 frame, which seems to have the same style fit as the RD.

Thanks for the revamp on the diagram, Richard. I mentioned it in a pm to you, but I'd be glad to lend my rap alpine, made of equilibrium, if there is collective interest. I'd be curious to see what Dave C.'s BD alpine start is as well, but I doubt will be tearing that one away from him anytime soon.

Daryl Daryl
(lyrad1) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest, USA, Earth
Re: A Visual Paradigm for Windshirts - Multiple Axis of Understanding.-Rev .1 on 02/19/2014 08:59:43 MST Print View

Richard,

Is the regain % of polypropylene similar to Terylene?

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Re: A Visual Paradigm for Windshirts - Multiple Axis of Understanding.-Rev .1 on 02/19/2014 09:43:51 MST Print View

Daryl,

Polypropylene, aka polyolefin, has 0.05% regain where the vertical 65% RH line is. In the chart it would be superimposed on top of the x-axis and not visible. The low-cost DriDucks and Frogg Toggs jackets use this material type.

Edited by richard295 on 02/19/2014 09:47:59 MST.

Woubeir (from Europe)
(Woubeir) - F - MLife
Re: Re: Re: A Visual Paradigm for Windshirts - Multiple Axis of Understanding.-Rev .1 on 02/19/2014 10:09:32 MST Print View

Richard,
is the moisture regain graph the representation of absorption rate/drying time ? Because I read several times that weave/knit type is more important for that then fiber nature.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Re: Re: Re: A Visual Paradigm for Windshirts - Multiple Axis of Understanding.-Rev .1 on 02/19/2014 10:46:00 MST Print View

Woubeir,

Most fabric layers are more air than fiber; so, it is the water in the spaces between the fibers and layers which are the primary determinate of saturated weight gain and inversely, the drying time. If two fabrics are the same weave / thickness but, made with different thread material, then the material with the lower regain will dry only slightly faster.

I think the original text under "mm Thick", your description, and the above alternate description all attempt to convey the same meaning. If you have a suggestion for making "mm Thick" text much clearer without being significantly more verbose, I will change it.

The primary research paper in this area said, "The main fabric property which does determine the amount of water a fabric freely picks up is thickness. Further, the time that it takes a fabric to dry is directly related to the amount of water which is in the fabric initially, the more water it holds initially, the longer it takes to dry. Finally, water evaporates more rapidly from a fabric than from a water drop of equivalent volume. This is because a fabric has a greater surface area from which the water can evaporate."

Edited by richard295 on 02/19/2014 11:01:59 MST.

Woubeir (from Europe)
(Woubeir) - F - MLife
Re: Re: Re: Re: A Visual Paradigm for Windshirts - Multiple Axis of Understanding.-Rev .1 on 02/19/2014 11:49:32 MST Print View

Richard,
I have to admit that I hadn't read those. For me that's, now I have, clear enough. But, of course, I can't speak for others.

Edited by Woubeir on 02/22/2014 15:28:54 MST.

Daryl Daryl
(lyrad1) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest, USA, Earth
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A Visual Paradigm for Windshirts - Multiple Axis of Understanding.-Rev .1 on 02/19/2014 12:00:51 MST Print View

Richard,
"Most fabric layers are more air than fiber; so, it is the water in the spaces between the fibers and layers which are the primary determinate of saturated weight gain and inversely, the drying time"

If I'm understanding this correctly I think it explains why my loosely woven nylon running shorts dry more slowly than my tightly woven uncoated nylon windbreaker......even though both fabrics are about the same weight per square yard.

Benji Hons
(BenjiH) - M
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A Visual Paradigm for Windshirts - Multiple Axis of Understanding.-Rev .1 on 02/22/2014 15:11:11 MST Print View

FYI, a littl

I don't mean to get off subject, but I contacted MEC regarding the RD windshell and they told me the Women's version is discontinued, and all of the Men's colors besides black and Cara Cara (orange) are discontinued. It was unclear if the Men's version will be disco'd altogether but it did seem like it as they mentioned there will be a similar jacket to replace it but couldn't tell me for sure. So act fast... PS only black can be shipped to the US.

Jeremy M.
(JeremyNoVa) - M

Locale: NoVa
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A Visual Paradigm for Windshirts - Multiple Axis of Understanding.-Rev .1 on 02/22/2014 18:18:22 MST Print View

NM

Edited by JeremyNoVa on 02/22/2014 18:19:11 MST.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Lab Tested - RAB Alpine & Boreas on 02/22/2014 19:21:49 MST Print View

The genesis of this analysis originated with Wim Depondt in his thread http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=86498. He used coffee filters to conclude that the RAB Boreas and Pertex Equilibrium fabrics were in the range or 75 CFM or more (single layer coffee filter average).

Subsequently Serge G. said, "I mentioned it in a pm to you, but I'd be glad to lend my RAB Alpine, made of Equilibrium, if there is collective interest." I already had access to a RAB Boreas; so, here is the data. If there are subjective questions on the Alpine, please address them to Serge G. For the Boreas, ask any of the many Boreas users. I am trying to stay objective and not promote or criticize any of the windshirts.


1.5

2.3

3.3

4.1

Edited by richard295 on 02/23/2014 13:07:51 MST.

Wim Depondt
(wim_depondt) - F - MLife

Locale: The low countries
Re: Lab Tested - RAB Alpine & Boreas on 02/23/2014 00:19:21 MST Print View

Thanks Richard. Excellent new information regarding the ongoing wind shirt conundrum. I am somehow surprised of the relatively high CFM rating for the RAB Alpine. Though I have to admit anecdotal evidence confirms it: in 95% of situations that necessitate a wind shirt, the RAB Alpine is perfect, including climbing. It’s also breathable enough to belay my rain jacket over it (a big plus in miserable weather conditions). But on a cold windy ridge, it is sometimes insufficient (RE high CFM ratio).

edit: typo

Edited by wim_depondt on 02/23/2014 06:50:11 MST.

Paul Hatfield
(clear_blue_skies) - F
Difference from specs on 02/23/2014 00:55:52 MST Print View

I don't understand how the air permeability that you measured for the Rab Alpine Jacket (111 CFM) can be so off from the spec for the Pertex Equilibrium fabric that it is constructed of (~ 20 CFM). Any thoughts?

Edited by clear_blue_skies on 02/23/2014 00:58:04 MST.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
Re: Difference from specs on 02/23/2014 02:14:03 MST Print View

i think it just shows that unverified "specs" should be shoved down where the sun dont shine

this isnt climbing gear where specs need to be accurate for safety, or en-rated sleeping bags where EU rules require actual testing standards

quoted manufacturer specs can be wildly inaccurate ... and honestly much of the time have more to do with marketing mumbo jumbo

ive always found it quite funny personally when there are whole threads dedicated to arguing how this or that gear is better on paper according to the manufacturer specs, when you dont know if they are even accurate

also remember that a fabric that has seen usage can be quite different from when it is new

;)

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Re: Difference from specs on 02/23/2014 12:00:55 MST Print View

Serge

Eric correctly pointed out a variable which we have no information on. All other garments I tested were new.

When was your garment purchased and what was the summary profile of its use / care?

Edited by richard295 on 02/23/2014 12:43:47 MST.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
RAB Alpine jacket CFM mystery solved? on 02/23/2014 17:54:00 MST Print View

I was curious as to why the “coffee filter” air permeability tests that Wim Depondt conducted on a NEW RAB Alpine seemed to indicate comparable breathability to the RAB Boreas. Wlm Depondt tested approximately 75 CFM for both. My lab tests showed the RAB Boreas was 68.7 CFM but, the USED RAB Alpine tested 111 CFM.

I took multiple micrographs of both fabric sides of the USED RAB Alpine. The following micrographs are 5.0mm and 1.4mm Field of View clearly indicating that a very-thin-clear PU (VTC PU) coating was added to the inside of the fabric during manufacture:

b


3


There were no visible wear spots on the outside of the fabric to indicate abnormal use. Consequently, it is plausible that the NEW air permeability could have been comparable to the RAB BOREAS when new, but, degraded to the 111 CFM level, from the VTC PU coating reduction, with 20 - 25 days of normal use.

A VTC PU coating on the inside of the Gossamera fabric (Arcteryx Squamish) has been used by Arcteryx since the 2009 model year. My hypothesis may also apply to this garment.

Edited by richard295 on 02/25/2014 13:24:56 MST.

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: RAB Alpine jacket CFM mystery solved? on 02/23/2014 18:11:38 MST Print View

68cfm sounds pretty breezy let alone 111cfm. From my experience with other PU coated fabrics, there isn't much of a coating there. Do they mechanically abrade it like some other fabrics?

Any specs on the OR Ferrosi fabrics? They seem similar to some Supplex shirts given the Darth Vader test.

Serge G.
(sgiachetti) - M

Locale: Boulder, CO
alpine use on 02/23/2014 18:16:16 MST Print View

I'd estimate that's I've worn the alpine 20-25 days since last winter, mostly back country skiing with a pack on. It might have gotten thrown in the wash & dwr'd with a couple other garments, but I'm not certain.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
interesting on 02/23/2014 20:20:09 MST Print View

now thats a VERY interesting question IMO

how does a windshirt breath after a decent amount of usage

i can say with my trail wind it doesnt seem to breath much better ...

i suspect it all depends on the fabric and the coating

hmmmm

;)

Ross Bleakney
(rossbleakney) - MLife

Locale: Cascades
Re: A Visual Paradigm for Windshirts - Multiple Axis of Understanding.-Rev 0 on 02/25/2014 13:26:31 MST Print View

Getting back to your original questions Richard:

I would say that the first three (breathability, water resistance and weight) are the most important to me. Other factors are nice, and will play a part in my purchasing decision, but those three are by far the most important for me. For example, I care about durability, but own Propore (I just know they are fragile). I want to save money, but I've bought (and will continue to by) Cuben. If there is some magic windshirt that does well in all three categories, then I'll spend lots of money, even if is fragile.

With that in mind, I suggest a table with at least those three items. It can have more (your call). Along with that, I would make a chart with breathability on the X and water resistance on the Y (these can be swapped if you prefer). Then I would represent weight with a bubble (the bigger the bubble, the heavier it is). I think this would be fairly intuitive. For example, if you were displaying rain jackets, than an Event jacket shows up in the upper right quadrant (very breathable and water resistant). A Propore jacket is a little bit closer to the axes. But the Propore jacket has a much smaller circle. (I've used rain jackets for my examples, even though I know this is for comparing windshirts).

The other advantage of this approach is that you can draw a line to designate something. For example, you could have a line designate what is generally considered "waterproof". Beyond that, a lot of people won't care if a jacket is more water resistant. Likewise, a line for the 35 marker on CFM.

Roman Vazhnov
(joarr) - MLife

Locale: Russia
water absorbtion on 02/25/2014 13:30:28 MST Print View

I wonder - are there polypropylene windshirts? I have found only Rohan Ether and Klattermusen Tjatse.

Jeff Jeff
(TwoFortyJeff) - F
Re: A Visual Paradigm for Windshirts - Multiple Axis of Understanding.-Rev 0 on 02/25/2014 18:31:07 MST Print View

I don't think this has been done before because it's not necessary. If you want to display these four attributes, it's best to just list them out.

The most obvious problem is that the chart has lines that imply, for example, that an item has more water resistance as it gets lighter. From an engineers perspective, if a given line represents a given product, it implies that the product's attributes exist anywhere on that line. We know that this isn't true because all of the attributes shown are fixed, not functions of each other.


I do enjoy your CLO and CFM charts though :)

Edited by TwoFortyJeff on 02/25/2014 18:33:13 MST.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: A Visual Paradigm for Windshirts - Multiple Axis of Understanding.-Rev 0 on 02/25/2014 20:50:35 MST Print View

How important are ALL four components?

We can't have everything at the same time -- or you can't have your cake and eat it too :)

For me (1)breathability and then(2)durable are most desirable.

(3) Next comes weight.

(4) Water resistance is last, because it will suffer if my first two items are of most importance.

I like the latest axis chart, which shows the older Houdini meets my important criteria, which I can anecdotally confirm.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Rev. 3 - A Visual Paradigm for Windshirts - Multiple Axis of Understanding on 02/25/2014 21:01:53 MST Print View

Jeff correctly pointed out that the Rev. 2 chart could be interpreted that an item has more water resistance as it gets lighter.

This was a limited data set artifact. The simplest clarification was to add the Wild Things WT 1.0 EPIC fabric windshirt.

1.3

2.1

3

4

Edited by richard295 on 02/25/2014 23:21:43 MST.

David Chenault
(DaveC) - BPL Staff - F

Locale: Crown of the Continent
Re: Rev. 3 - A Visual Paradigm for Windshirts - Multiple Axis of Understanding on 02/26/2014 09:49:13 MST Print View

Thanks Richard, keep up the good work.

I do wish Wild Things would put a more refined hood on the tactical windshirt.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
WT 1.0 Mods - A Visual Paradigm for Windshirts on 02/26/2014 11:37:14 MST Print View

David,

Thanks for the positive feedback.

For bushwhacking in perpetually damp conditions, I have found the WT 1.0 fabric without equal. If a fabric doesn't test well for my intended purpose, I just get rid of the garment. If I keep it, then I inevitably find a few tailoring issues to moan and groan about. After that, I make the DIY tailoring changes to optimize the garment for my needs.

Tailoring Issue 1: Like you, I found the hood lacking. It’s only cut for "under helmet" applications and there are no options to adjust its volume or head position. To correct this, I always wear a wide brim hat with it; the hat has an internal adjustable head band size. It allows me to customize the WT 1.0 hood volume and position the way I want it and keep it in place under the hat.

Tailoring Issue 2: I want to close the wrist aperture when heat needs to be retained and loosen it up, along with the neck zip, to facilitate chimney effect cooling when needed. I rarely take off my pack to make clothing adjustments. I added Velcro wrist closures.

wrist

Edited by richard295 on 03/07/2014 00:00:13 MST.

Paul Hatfield
(clear_blue_skies) - F
Balancing breathability/water resistance on 02/26/2014 13:55:24 MST Print View

Balancing Breathability/Water Resistance

Graph of Air Permeability (CFM) x Hydrostatic Head (mm H2O) for the garments that Richard tested.

This is my take on interpreting the data.

Edited by clear_blue_skies on 02/26/2014 14:01:13 MST.

KEN LARSON
(KENLARSON) - MLife

Locale: Western Michigan
BD Alpine Start Hooded Jacket on 02/26/2014 17:18:39 MST Print View

This data might interest some:

The Alpine Start is at 40 CFM

FROM:
Brad Curkendall
Black Diamond Equipment

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: BD Alpine Start Hooded Jacket on 02/26/2014 17:42:38 MST Print View

Ken,

Thank you for the information!

Needless to say but, the CFM spec is near optimal for aerobic activities; what is the companion HH spec?

Also please inquire if both of these specs are based on Black Diamond's tests or Scholler's tests?

Edited by richard295 on 02/26/2014 23:08:57 MST.

KEN LARSON
(KENLARSON) - MLife

Locale: Western Michigan
Re: BD Alpine Start Hooded Jacket on 02/26/2014 17:50:16 MST Print View

Richard .....I did not inquire, an over sight!

Paul Hatfield
(clear_blue_skies) - F
Black Diamond Alpine Start Hoody air permeability / hydrostatic head specs on 02/28/2014 17:27:10 MST Print View

I received this response from Black Diamond:
-----------------------
Thanks for getting in touch with us. The jacket is 40 CFM (cubic feet per minute) which is technically 40 CFM/M2 (cubic feet per minute per meter squared) but the industry simply refers to this as CFM. This is testing done by Schoeller and tested by BD. It is a stretch fabric and should increase the CFM slightly when stretched.

The hydrostatic head is approx 500 mm. It is treated with Nanosphere but does not have any coating that is generally required to get higher hydrostatic performance.

Kim Hall | Black Diamond Equipment

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Black Diamond Alpine Start Hoody air permeability / hydrostatic head specs on 02/28/2014 18:08:51 MST Print View

It is false that, “40 CFM (cubic feet per minute) is technically 40 CFM/M2 (cubic feet per minute per meter squared)”

The ASTM D737 standard on page 3 says, "11.1 Air Permeability, Individual Specimens—Calculate the air permeability of individual specimens using values read directly from the test instrument in SI units as cm3/s/cm2 and in inch-pound units as ft3/min/ft2, rounded to three significant digits."

Kim may have the English representations and the SI representations mixed up. If so, a 40 SI value equals a 78.74 CFM value. As a general rule, EU companies (Schoeller is Swiss) spec their values in SI format.

Edited by richard295 on 02/28/2014 20:17:09 MST.

Wim Depondt
(wim_depondt) - F - MLife

Locale: The low countries
My experience with the BD Alpine Sport Hoody on 03/01/2014 12:14:52 MST Print View

I owned a Black Diamond Alpine Start Hoody but returned it. Black Diamond needs to work on its fit: the diameter of the neck area was so small that, during a hike, the jacket slowly but certain became uncomfortable to wear when fully zipped up (read: the zipper constantly pressing against my Adam’s apple). I normally wear a size medium but this problem also occurred wearing a size large.
I found the RAB Boreas and RAB Alpine significantly more comfortable to wear: the Boreas has more stretch and the Alpine is less athletic (which I find a plus).

FWIW:
- The ‘suck test' revealed the wind shirt to be in between the RAB Boreas and the RAB Alpine (RE breathability) But it is a close call - lab tests will certainly be more conclusive.
- The DWR finish is superb - the best I have personally ever seen. Most probably as a result of the Nanosphere finish. Superior to both the Boreas – which by default doesn’t have any DWR – and the RAB Alpine. I am very curious how durable this DWR would be as a result of both frequent washing and abrasion. At first sight, it seems Nanosphere is just a coating ( a special coating though as both fluorocarbons and nanoparticles are used to enhance repellency). Quid ‘Nanospere coating’ = as durable as ‘Nextec EPIC encapsulation’? I personally have to little knowledge to answer this question.
Patent information on the Nanosphere coating can be found here:

https://www.google.com/patents/US20080214075?dq=patent:20080214075&hl=en&sa=X&ei=m9QRU_i9M5KM7AaCr4GIBQ&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAA

- The RAB Alpine and – certainly – the Boreas start leaking faster than the BD Alpine Start under modest rain. But I would be surprised if HH would be around 500mm (as apparently claimed by a BD rep). I would rather settle for double or triple the HH of the RAB Alpine (anecdotal & arbitrary assessment). My cheap nylon Decathlon wind shirt certainly has a higher HH than the BD Alpine (but crap DWR).
- The BD Alpine Start has a 2-way stretch fabric and is – as is the Boreas – clearly less fragile then the RAB Alpine (the RAB Alpine is certainly not designed for lengthy sections of bushwacking).. The RAB Alpine has virtually no stretch.

Interesting to note: while the BD website state the fabric is 93% nylon and 7% elastane, the tags of the jacket tell otherwise: 93% polyester and 7% elastane. It was difficult to assess which statement is correct.

I will continue to use my RAB Alpine wind shirt. It remains a notch more breathable and is significantly more comfortable than the BD Alpine Sport. Compared to the Boreas, the RAB Alpine withstands drizzle and short rain showers but is still breathable enough to quickly ‘belay’ my rain jacket over it when it starts wetting through (which I find a very big plus in miserable weather).

edit: typo

Edited by wim_depondt on 03/02/2014 00:12:20 MST.

Eric Blumensaadt
(Danepacker) - MLife

Locale: Mojave Desert
FWIW on 03/01/2014 13:53:16 MST Print View

I have never used a "wind shirt" and never intend to. The extra weight is not worth it for something so specialized.

Instead my eVent parks is my wind shirt if my long sleeved poly or nylon hiking shirt can't protect em enough. It's about "dual purpose" gear to lighten the load.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: My experience with the BD Alpine Sport Hoody on 03/01/2014 14:19:39 MST Print View

Wim,

Thanks again for a very comprehensive and interesting review!

You have really piqued my investigative interest.

Edited by richard295 on 03/01/2014 22:18:26 MST.

William Segraves
(sbill9000) - F - M
Re: A Visual Paradigm for Windshirts - Multiple Axis of Understanding on 03/01/2014 17:09:28 MST Print View

I'm late to this party, so please feel free to redirect me if this has been covered fully elsewhere, but what is the relationship between the wind resistance and water vapor diffusion rate? Does CFM tell us everything we need to know until we get down to windproof, or might there plausibly be differences in water vapor diffusion among fabrics with similar wind resistance? Within some relevant range?

Thanks much!

Best,

Bill S.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Re: A Visual Paradigm for Windshirts - Multiple Axis of Understanding on 03/01/2014 18:37:41 MST Print View

Bill,

Rain-proof shells have a requirement for a minimum hydrostatic head of 1,500 mm H2O; they are not required to move aerobic level moisture levels to the outside. To achieve this, the most common alternative is to use a nonporous lamination or coating. They utilize the polymer's molecular movement (micro Brownian movement) to efficiently absorb perspiration vapor and disperse it throughout the fabric but, have an air permeability of 0 CFM. The more expensive and efficient alternatives utilize micro-porous coatings or membranes but they are limited in air permeability to a maximum of about .5 CFM in order to fulfill the HH requirement. Moisture vapor transmission tests are the only way these two broad classes of technologies can be compared. There are many different tests used and results from different tests are not comparable.

In contrast, non-rain-proof shells (windshirts/soft shells/etc.) have the primary goals of moving internal aerobic level moisture levels to the outside, adding warmth, and protecting users from the wind as their primary goals; they are not rain-proof. There is a general but, not universal, inverse linear correlation, between CFM and HH. They are primarily compared using their CFM and HH values. There is only one universal test to determine each value and so they can be accurately compared.

Edited by richard295 on 03/07/2014 18:07:37 MST.

William Segraves
(sbill9000) - F - M
Re: Re: Re: A Visual Paradigm for Windshirts - Multiple Axis of Understanding on 03/01/2014 18:56:38 MST Print View

Thanks for your reply, Richard. I think I must not have phrased my question right, or I'm missing something. I'm not wondering so much about the relationship between HH/rainproofness and CFM (though it's important, of course), but about how directly CFM tells us how well sweat will get out (the water vapor transfer rate). Will a 15 CFM garment dissipate 5 times as much sweat and insensible water loss as a 3 CFM garment? Will that 3 CFM garment dissipate 9 times as much as a 0.33 CFM propore garment? Will all 3 CFM or 15 CFM garments, for instance, be about the same? (If I understand correctly, *not* all garments of 0.33 CFM would be expected to be the same.)

Best,

Bill S.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Re: Re: Re: A Visual Paradigm for Windshirts - Multiple Axis of Understanding on 03/01/2014 19:38:22 MST Print View

William,

The answers to all of your above questions is "Yes" up to approximately 400 CFM. Furthermore, the porosity (CFM) and the associated convective permeability are more predictive of the capacity of an ensemble to support evaporative cooling than diffusive permeability (MVTR).

Edited by richard295 on 03/01/2014 20:03:54 MST.

William Segraves
(sbill9000) - F - M
Re: Re: A Visual Paradigm for Windshirts - Multiple Axis of Understanding on 03/01/2014 19:58:57 MST Print View

Thanks, Richard. That's helpful. It seems pretty clear why that would be the case wrt the maximum water vapor transfer rate that can be sustained without getting any significant condensation. But when I'm not venting adequately, I almost always first start to build up condensation on the inside face of my garments. Once that happens, the other properties of the fabric might make a *lot* of difference, right? Potentially the difference between whether I can stay just a little bit damp (MVTR approx equal to perspiration and insensible water loss rate) or instead get drenched?

My questions are partly just out of interest and trying to understand whether there's potentially another relevant dimension for your model, but also motivated by trying to understand why some low porosity garments actually seem to perform decently wrt water vapor transfer.

Cheers,

Bill S.

Roman Vazhnov
(joarr) - MLife

Locale: Russia
Re: My experience with the BD Alpine Sport Hoody on 03/02/2014 12:01:16 MST Print View

"The ‘suck test' revealed the wind shirt to be in between the RAB Boreas and the RAB Alpine (RE breathability)".
Wim, can you please clarify the ordering: Boreas < Alpine Start < Alpine ?

Wim Depondt
(wim_depondt) - F - MLife

Locale: The low countries
Re: Re: My experience with the BD Alpine Sport Hoody on 03/02/2014 13:34:23 MST Print View

Yes, but I have to admit I now have second guesses and I can’t redo my ‘suck test’ anymore as I have returned the BD Alpine Start.

I can recall with much certainty that the RAB Alpine is more air permeable than the Alpine Start. But I now started doubting whether the Alpine Start is more breathable than the Boreas or vice versa. Maybe BPL member and staff David Chenault might be able to confirm/correct the order of breathability (I think he still owns the Boreas and has recently purchased the BD Alpine Start).

Wim

Serge G.
(sgiachetti) - M

Locale: Boulder, CO
Re: Re: Re: My experience with the BD Alpine Sport Hoody on 03/03/2014 08:05:48 MST Print View

I breath tested the alpin start vs. Rab alpine & found the alpine start to be more air permeable than the alpine. I have a Boreas which i'll check it against later. I like the fabric of the alpine start but the fit is weird around the neck & hood so I'm returning it. I need to put a cap on my windshirt collection anyway.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Black Diamond Alpine Start Hoody on 03/07/2014 14:08:24 MST Print View

This update is a result of ground work done by both Ken Larson and Woubeir (from Europe). Ken provided information regarding his discussions with Schoeller Corporate and Black Diamond Corporate about Alpine Start fabric specs. Woubier provided information regarding the value of incorporating iClo comparisons to better understand windshirts.

Ken’s input, along with other forum members, is included in the following summary BD Alpine Start specifications:

1.2

Woubier’s input, incorporated into my BD Alpine Lab test results, is as follows:

2.1

3

4.1

5

Edited by richard295 on 03/07/2014 20:54:05 MST.

Paul Hatfield
(clear_blue_skies) - F
Schoeller fabric on 03/07/2014 16:28:30 MST Print View

Thanks for taking the time to test the the Black Diamond Alpine Start and give us some hard numbers. According to your measurements, the Schoeller fabric used in the Black Diamond Alpine Start seems to expand the envelope of breathability vs. water resistance.

Wim Depondt
(wim_depondt) - F - MLife

Locale: The low countries
Re: Black Diamond Alpine Start Hoody on 03/07/2014 23:28:50 MST Print View

Hi Richard,

Thanks for taking out the time and energy to do this and previous tests. Invaluable information for hikers in need of a good windshirt.

So, the fabric is indeed polyester/elastane (and not nylon/elastane as provided on BD's website)?

Wim

Paul Hatfield
(clear_blue_skies) - F
Black Diamond Alpine Start on 03/08/2014 15:30:52 MST Print View

The tag on the Black Diamond Alpine Start indicates polyester/elastane. This is in disagreement with Black Diamond's web site.

The Scholler fabric in the Black Diamond Alpine Start is a 2-way stretch fabric. The orientation on the stretch is horizontal in the torso of the garment (This is in contrast to the Outdoor Research Ferrosi Hoody, which orients the stretch vertically.)

Via breath-testing side-by-side on new jackets, in my opinion, the Schoeller fabric has slightly higher air permeability than the Pertex Equilibrium of the Rab Alpine Jacket. This is in contrast to Richard's measurements on a new Black Diamond and *used* Rab.

If not using a helmet or hat, the brim of the Black Diamond hood needs to be rolled back. Also the hood does not want to turn with your head. The hood on the Rab Alpine Jacket is better sorted out, in my opinion.

The front neck area of the Black Diamond is on tight side when fully-zipped. It might not be comfortable if fully zipped. Zipped down 3 or 4 inches, it is fine for me.

The zipper of the Black Diamond works well and doesn't catch on the zipper flap. (The zipper on the Rab often catches on the zipper flap, at least just trying it out in the house.) What is the purpose of a zipper flap on a wind jacket anyway?

The Rab has a lot of extra fabric in the chest and torso for me. I suspect the MEC RD Windshell might be better fitting for me, though I haven't seen one in person.

Perhaps Rab should consider making their Alpine Jacket out of the Schoeller fabric.

Edited by clear_blue_skies on 03/09/2014 01:17:53 MST.

Serge G.
(sgiachetti) - M

Locale: Boulder, CO
zip on 03/08/2014 15:48:45 MST Print View

Yes, thanks again for testing, Richard. Paul, that matches my breath test of the alpine start as well. Honestly, they both would likely fill similar rolls for me breathability wise, but the weird fit of the alpine start collar was what got me.
I'm probably way to picky about this sort of thing, but the zipper/flap on the alpine is what had me looking at alternatives. Its just way to stiff & built up for a jacket with fabric that light. When wearing a hipbelt or harness the zipper bunches up awkwardly & blocksthe view to your feet, which is important for climbing & sometimes hiking/skiing too. If I had any hope I wouldn't butcher it, I'd sew it into an anorak with a small flexible half zip. Again, I'm picky though. Too much time on these forums.

Paul Hatfield
(clear_blue_skies) - F
Black Diamond Alpine Start vs. Rab Alpine Jacket on 03/10/2014 23:53:55 MDT Print View

Some more thoughts on the Black Diamond Alpine Start vs. Rab Alpine Jacket.

The length of both jackets is okay for use with a backpack. In the front, they are just about the same length, but in the rear, the Rab has a drop tail which makes it about 3" longer.

My hipbelt just covers the bottom of the zipper of the hand pockets of the Rab. I wish the pockets were just about 1 inch higher.

The Rab has a lot of extra fabric in the stomach area, and when I sit down, or I fasten my pack's hip belt, the stomach area balloons out.

The Black Diamond has a much cleaner front, having only a single chest pocket. The pocket is okay-sized, but not large enough for gloves.

The hood on the Rab is brilliant. The hood on the Black Diamond rubs your forehead when you turn your head.

If you are going to use the hood a lot, or like walking with your hands in your pockets, I would suggest the Rab. If you rarely use a hood, and prefer a clean front, the Black Diamond would be better.

Brian Lindahl
(lindahlb) - MLife

Locale: Colorado Rockies
Re: A Visual Paradigm for Windshirts - Multiple Axis of Understanding on 03/12/2014 11:41:07 MDT Print View

If I wanted to send some garments to you for testing, would that be ok?

I have a OR Ferrosi, a Stoic Wrath, and a Montane windshirt.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Re: A Visual Paradigm for Windshirts - Multiple Axis of Understanding on 03/12/2014 13:42:20 MDT Print View

Brian,

Which of your jackets are currently broadly available for new sales and what is the use-profile? Early indications are that coated windshirts increase in air permeability with use.

Edited by richard295 on 03/12/2014 17:22:59 MDT.

Brian Lindahl
(lindahlb) - MLife

Locale: Colorado Rockies
Re: Re: Re: A Visual Paradigm for Windshirts - Multiple Axis of Understanding on 03/13/2014 10:19:53 MDT Print View

The Stoic Wrath is no longer available, and the one I am most interested in getting tested.

The OR Ferrosi and Montane Lite-Speed is still available.