Return dilemma
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Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: Return dilemma on 02/14/2014 13:01:37 MST Print View

Lifetime means lifetime. You did not abuse the product, nor do you want to return it for a frivolous reason such as not liking the color. The product has failed and the manufacturer should live up to the guaranty.

I returned a suitcase to Eagle Creek because the PU coating was degrading and a sticky mess, making it unusable. It was sold with a lifetime warranty. Eagle Creek said that the PRODUCT was past it's lifetime and they would not honor the warranty. The suitcase was very lightly used and looked it-- no dirt, tears, fraying or other signs of heavy use or abuse.

I pointed out that every other manufacturer I had dealt with regarding a lifetime warranty had replaced the item with no hesitation. I asked to have the suitcase returned so I could initiate a claim with my state consumer protection office. I was promptly sent a new suitcase.

It is the frivolous returns that concern me. It is quite obvious when an item has seen heavy use and then returned due to color, fit, or rips and tears that are obviously beyond reasonable use.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Return dilemma on 02/14/2014 13:24:40 MST Print View

"Lifetime means lifetime."

What lifetime?

If the product has failed, then it has past its lifetime.

--B.G.--

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Re: Return dilemma on 02/14/2014 13:27:33 MST Print View

"If the product has failed, then it has past its lifetime."

Not true. I've failed more times than I like to admit, but I'm still kicking.....

Of course, me mum has tried to send me back numerous times. No luck so far. Something about not intended to be used in this fashion or something....

David Olsen
(bivysack.com) - F

Locale: Channeled Scablands
Put your own floor in. on 02/14/2014 13:31:34 MST Print View

I have an REI goretex tent. The PU coating on the floor is well named. It is about 30 years old. Some day I will replace the floor with a silnylon fabric. You could do the same and seal the seams with liquid sealer. Should work well for a bivy and it would be lighter.

Tad Englund
(bestbuilder) - F - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: Re: Re: Re: Return dilemma on 02/14/2014 13:33:29 MST Print View

Doug your failing is just your opinion. Its a fact that you were a lemon from the beginning. Your poor mum, she wasn't given a good return policy!

When I fail, I keep telling my wife "at least my mom loves me" (poor lady).

Justin Baker
(justin_baker) - F

Locale: Santa Rosa, CA
Re: Re: Return dilemma on 02/14/2014 13:35:02 MST Print View

Lifetime means lifetime of the product, how long you could reasonably expect a type of gear to last. I'm too young to have experienced the old school nylon pu stuff, but I was under the impression that 20 years of that stuff sitting in a closet was past the lifetime of the product regardless of how much use it got.

Paul Andronico
(Jakesandwich) - M

Locale: S.F. Bay Area
When lifetime doesn't mean forever on 02/14/2014 13:39:35 MST Print View

There are at least two kinds of lifetime warranties, the first is the "satisfaction guaranteed" lifetime warranty, and the second is the more traditional lifetime warranty "against defects in materials and workmanship". The first type would allow for return of the bivy (although I would not, personally). The second type would probably not allow for a return because the failure is more likely the result of the natural degradation of a perfectly fine material, rather than a defect in the material. I have never read REI's return policy, but my impression from reading BPL is that it is more of a lifetime satisfaction guaranty.

David Olsen
(bivysack.com) - F

Locale: Channeled Scablands
REI- no return on lifetime warranteed Nalgene. on 02/14/2014 13:44:50 MST Print View

Long time ago, I had one of those lexan Nalgene's break when dropped. REI refused to take it back, even tho the bottle right in the store said lifetime guaranteed. They said I had worn it out. It was about 2 years old, but daily used.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
Re: "Return Dilemma" on 02/14/2014 13:46:08 MST Print View

As for the dead bird return

The person got a full credit ...

The result is the same regardless of what the returner "asked" for... A 10+ year old jacket was fully refunded and then some

The effect on the company is the same ... Theyre out the full price regardless whether its rei or dead bird

So in BPL theory dead bird will now need to raise prices or reduce their future warranty

Again internet morality is a funny thing ...

Now how about those "chinese" windshirts or buying walmart goods

;)

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Return dilemma on 02/14/2014 14:25:10 MST Print View

From eric chan :
but when its REI, everyone starts going crazy

A) do you want to return a 20 year old jacket to XXXX ? Not my problem
B) do you want to return a 20 year old jacket to REI ?
Are you nuts ??? this is my problem , I am a member !!!

BTW, "REI does not charge significantly more..."
ask the owner of your local indipendent outdoor store if he thinks he is buying at the same price REI does.

Edited by Franco on 02/14/2014 14:32:23 MST.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
Re: Return dilemma on 02/14/2014 14:30:56 MST Print View

Well according to the "REI is not UL ... Dont shop there ... Big box is bad" threads on BPL a few years ago ...

I dont think we need to worry too much about it

;)

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: When lifetime doesn't mean forever on 02/14/2014 14:38:47 MST Print View

To me, "lifetime" means the lifetime of the original owner, unless specified otherwise. If there is to be a product lifetime, that needs to be spelled out in a specified time: 2, 10, 20 years. There could certainly be disclaimers as to abuse vs material defects.

If the product shows no no unusual wear and has simply failed in storage, how do you determine the "useful service life" of the product without stating it? With luggage, I'm sure most spends far more time in storage than use. There's no odometer, but I think it would be pretty obvious to spot one used by a road warrior flying weekly vs the typical twice a year traveler. Likewise a through hiker vs the summer weekend hiker.

IMHO, the failure of fabric coatings and seam taping is a clear failure of the product to perform as manufactured. As with my example with Eagle Creek, I'm sure they have had a wave of claims due to interior coating degradation, but that is as much a product failure as a seam coming apart or a wheel falling off in the abscence of abuse. It is simply a company policy to reject such claims unless the customer escalates. The real issue is between the fabric manufacturer and Eagle Creek. Not my problem.

Over the years, I have made claims regarding product failures with Outdoor Research, GoLite, REI, Timbuk2, and Pacsafe with stellar, no-questions-asked service. Kudos to those organizations for walking the talk.

As far as REI's purchasing power, I'm sure part of their negotiations includes no warranty returns and they handle it all in house. I'll bet that their gear garage sales recoup a good percentage of the actual cost too.

Edited by dwambaugh on 02/14/2014 14:44:59 MST.

Justin Baker
(justin_baker) - F

Locale: Santa Rosa, CA
Re: Re: When lifetime doesn't mean forever on 02/14/2014 15:04:35 MST Print View

A "lifetime warranty" is usually intentionally deceptive. I awlways thought in meant forever, for the rest of my life. But if you actually ask someone working at REI they will tell you that it means the lifetime of the product. The appropriate lifetime of a product is hard to tell and it's up to the REI employees to determine that.

Of course like most companies they will usually try and make the customer as happy as possible.

Buck Nelson
(Colter) - MLife

Locale: Alaska
Literal translation of a guarantee on 02/14/2014 15:24:49 MST Print View

I used to sell quite a bit of stuff on eBay, mostly books and DVDs. I'd describe all items carefully and include good photos. The end of the description would say "Your satisfaction is 100% guaranteed." For the very rare return I'd refund 100% and pay their shipping.

One time a guy insisted that he had paid too much and demanded I give him a free DVD as well. He was angry with the price, but said he was happy with his book otherwise. I pointed out that he, not I, had set the price and I sometimes sold at a loss.

He said that I had a 100% satisfaction guarantee, and if I didn't give him a free DVD he'd go "mad-dog on me."

He and I had different world views. :)

Larry De La Briandais
(Hitech) - F

Locale: SF Bay Area
Re: Return dilemma on 02/14/2014 15:32:15 MST Print View

"BTW, "REI does not charge significantly more..."
ask the owner of your local independent outdoor store if he thinks he is buying at the same price REI does."

I was only referring to the price the consumer pays, not the markup amount. That is a whole nuther story. ;^)

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: Re: Re: When lifetime doesn't mean forever on 02/14/2014 15:34:02 MST Print View

Yeah, here is Eagle Creek's current warranty:

"No Matter What™ Warranty

Our No Matter What™ Warranty covers the Lifetime Warranty promise plus the added insurance of repair or replacement due to damage, regardless of the cause. During this period, we will repair or replace it at our discretion. Contents of your bag are excluded.

Collections backed by the added protection of the No Matter What™ Warranty: Exploration Series, Ease Collection, EC Adventure Collection, No Matter What™ Duffels


Lifetime Warranty

Our Lifetime Warranty covers workmanship and materials against defect for the entire life of the product. During this period, if the product is covered by the warranty, we will repair or replace it at our discretion. Contents of your bag, normal wear and tear, abuse and cosmetic wear and tear are excluded.

=====================================================================

Contrast that with the Outdoor Research warranty statement:

Infinite Guarantee

At Outdoor Research, our mission is to provide innovation and inspiration for the relentless adventurer.

Outdoor Research products are Designed By Adventure™ and from this, we deliver the hallmark of all our products – beautiful, functional gear that works and lasts. By placing quality first, we can offer the finest guarantee in the industry for each and every product – the Outdoor Research Infinite Guarantee™.

We believe so strongly in the quality of the apparel and gear we make that if our product fails to meet your needs at any time, we are happy to replace it. Our products are guaranteed forever, and your total satisfaction with our product is our goal.

Though we doubt you’ll ever need it, if you ever have to use our Infinite Guarantee, visit the Warranty section of our website.

Dena Kelley
(EagleRiverDee) - M

Locale: Eagle River, Alaska
"Return dilemma" on 02/14/2014 15:41:27 MST Print View

Eric said:"As for the dead bird return

The person got a full credit ...

The result is the same regardless of what the returner "asked" for... A 10+ year old jacket was fully refunded and then some"
========

Eric, not sure if you're being obtuse or deliberately stirring the pot.

It's NOT the same.

The guy with the Arcteryx Jacket asked for a REPAIR. Arcteryx made the determination to replace the coat. That's their choice, not an abuse by a customer. Are we supposed to beat that guy up because even though all he asked for was a repair, he got a free coat and so he's the problem? Um, no. He didn't ask for that. It was offered. That makes a huge difference in my mind.

And I have no idea what you mean by "internet morality". It's just morality. It doesn't change just because I'm on the net.

Justin Baker
(justin_baker) - F

Locale: Santa Rosa, CA
retail vs manufac. on 02/14/2014 15:49:12 MST Print View

there is a big difference between a retailer and a manufacturer. The retailer has limited knowledge about the quality and workmanship of a product. A manufacture has the knowledge and responsibility to create quality products. Returning a 10 year old jacket to Arcteryx, who designed the jacket for many years of use, is different from returning a 10 year old jacket to REI who simply resells and distributes the jacket.

If your product is really old and having problems you should deal with the manufacturer first and give the retail store a break.

Paul Andronico
(Jakesandwich) - M

Locale: S.F. Bay Area
Re: Literal translation of a guarantee on 02/14/2014 15:49:54 MST Print View

Good story, Buck. Sounds like a line from a Bruce Willis movie :)

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Literal translation of a guarantee on 02/14/2014 15:54:08 MST Print View

So, did you give him a free DVD?