Current UL windshirts and breathability: are there other options and layering techniques?
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Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Current UL windshirts and breathability: are there other options and layering techniques? on 02/13/2014 01:14:54 MST Print View

Roman,

Yes, the most recent high air permeability EPIC windshirt I tested was a 70 denier nylon, size XL @ 8.7 oz.; it tested 29.8 CFM. It is the Metacam color Windshirt WT 1.0 ($109) sold by Wild Things LLC. The Coyote color tests much differently. My micrographs also indicated that the Patagonia Houdini uses EPIC process fabric. Up until the 2013 model year, it tested approximately 35.4 CFM.

As I have explained in another recent post, once you go beyond ~35 CFM for a windshirt, in a windshirt/base layer ensemble, there is no increase in the amount of moisture vapor that can be transported out of the ensemble.

My lab equipment's manufactures and model numbers are proprietary information but, it is similar to the commercial equipment that Gore-Tex scientists used for their air permeable Gore-Tex patent measurements. It is not a DIY tester.

Edited by richard295 on 04/02/2014 15:32:34 MDT.

Paul Hatfield
(clear_blue_skies) - F
Salomon Fast Wing Hoodie on 02/13/2014 01:19:00 MST Print View

I was interested in the Salomon Fast Wing Hoodie because it was on sale online for very, very cheap. I have no firsthand knowledge of it but I found a review of it at TrailRunningReview.com
http://www.trailrunningreview.com/es/Salomon_Fast_Wing_2_Hoodie/REVIEW--147.html

I don't understand Spanish, but I'm pretty sure the Tranpirabilidad rating is the breathability rating, and it did not do well. The use of ClimaWIND Pro also led me to suspect that it wouldn't breathe well. So I decided to pass up the deal.

Paul Hatfield
(clear_blue_skies) - F
Wild Things Windshirt - WT 1.0 on 02/13/2014 01:30:05 MST Print View

The Wild Things Windshirt - WT 1.0 that Richard mentioned is under the military section of Wild Thing's website.

http://www.wildthingsgear.com/products/military-windshirt-wt-1

Tech Specs
70 denier textured nylon shell encapsulated with silicone in a proprietary process that provides durable water resistance, abrasion resistance, and breathability
½ zip pullover
One angled chest pocket
Concealed zippers
Adjustable shock cord hem
Stow-away hood
Elastic wrist closures
Dropped tail
Weight: 10 oz
Made in U.S.A.

Roman Vazhnov
(joarr) - MLife

Locale: Russia
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Current UL windshirts and breathability: are there other options and layering techniques? on 02/13/2014 01:36:43 MST Print View

Hmm, i thought EPIC in Windshirt WT is much lesser air permeable, interesting. Richard, is there a place were we can find all of your CFM measurement results?

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Salomon Fast Wing Hoodie on 02/13/2014 01:40:19 MST Print View

Paul,

It is speced at <5 CFM.

dave e
(hipass) - F

Locale: Los Angeles
Re: Canada on 02/13/2014 01:43:24 MST Print View

Vancouver?you mean,Hong-Kouver :)

Woubeir (from Europe)
(Woubeir) - F - MLife
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Current UL windshirts and breathability: are there other options and layering techniques? on 02/13/2014 03:29:01 MST Print View

Interesting Richard. Do you happen to know what is the CFM-rating from WT themself ?

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Current UL windshirts and breathability: are there other options and layering techniques? on 02/13/2014 05:34:25 MST Print View

Tom,

I have never seen that information published nor have I asked for it from WT. If they give you any CFM or HH information, please share it with me.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Current UL windshirts and breathability: are there other options and layering techniques? on 02/13/2014 05:47:05 MST Print View

Roman,

Like Patagonia, WT changes the fabric used for some model years. Sometimes the product name changes and sometimes it doesn't.

Woubeir (from Europe)
(Woubeir) - F - MLife
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Current UL windshirts and breathability: are there other options and layering techniques? on 02/13/2014 06:02:53 MST Print View

Richard,
it's just that your measurements are high compared with specs. from brands.
I guess that would mean that or they use different parameters or their specs. are indeed very low but consumers are unaware of this and/or don't know what cfm is.
Alone, their is not directly a way to compare because afaik the garments you measure are not the same as garments where brands to give an AP-number. Or have I missed something ?

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Current UL windshirts and breathability: are there other options and layering techniques? on 02/13/2014 07:07:03 MST Print View

Tom,

Please list all the spec values that vary from my higher test results. If the differences are major, please independently test the values that differ and post your results. This should allow to reconcile any problems.

Woubeir (from Europe)
(Woubeir) - F - MLife
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Current UL windshirts and breathability: are there other options and layering techniques? on 02/13/2014 07:54:18 MST Print View

Richard,
that's just it. Your measurements show values of e.g. 35 or 67 or even 100.
I never see those high values with brands. If those are listed, they show values in cfm, but also in cc or liters and in cfm it's always 2, 5, 7 or 10 cfm. Always on fabrics/clothing you haven't had the chance to measure.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Current UL windshirts and breathability: are there other options and layering techniques? on 02/13/2014 14:04:05 MST Print View

Tom,

Backpacking is listed in standard physiology energy expenditure guide entitled “The Compendium of Physical Activities Tracking Guide” as an average 7 MET activity. That is the highest level of energy that can be expended indefinitely. Most retail shop manuals put garments for this aerobic MET level in their Aerobic Softshell Fabric category (or similar).

A great example used to be the old The North Face shop manual which at one time was found at http://www2.thenorthface.com/sa/technologies/technologies-OU3.html ; excerpts from that shop manual stated in part:

The North Face Apex™ Universal Softshell Fabrics
Usage: Medium levels of aerobic activity (hiking, biking, climbing, skiing, snowboarding) in moderate conditions.

Our most versatile all-around soft shell performance fabric. Apex™ Universal fabric features stretch, high breathability, water resistance and thermal capability. Ideal for moderate aerobic activity in mild climates. Use as a protective outerlayer or insulating midlayer. CFM 5-20

The North Face Apex™ Aerobic Softshell Fabrics
Usage: High levels of extended aerobic activity (running, biking, climbing) in mild conditions.

Our lightest, stretchiest and most breathable Apex™ soft shell fabric. Ideal for high-output aerobic activities in cold, dry climates. Apex™ Aerobic fabric is performance-fitting soft shell fabric that protects you from the elements while providing temperature regulation. CFM 20+.

One of their most common OEM material sources for garments they offered for this market segment was -Polartec WindPro spec’ed 60 CFM. See http://www.polartecheat.net/documents/WindPro.pdf

Solomon CLIMAWIND III Softshell
See http://www.salomon.com/us/product/momemtum--softshell-vest-m.html
-Spec’ed at 40 CFM

Patagonia's Nano-Air Jacket and hoody
See http://gossamergear.com/wp/buzz-blog/outdoor-retailer-winter-2014-trade-show-part-1-pre-show-hiking-loads-interesting-new-gear-technologies-lightweight-backcountry-travel
-Spec’ed at 42 CFM

Woubeir (from Europe)
(Woubeir) - F - MLife
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Current UL windshirts and breathability: are there other options and layering techniques? on 02/13/2014 14:31:32 MST Print View

Richard,
sure but still not a direct comparison. But if one day you would be able to test e.g. Nano Air-clothing and you would also come to a cfm of 42, that would be a real comparison. Now, there's always the possibility of doubt; "perhaps", "maybe", ...

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Current UL windshirts and breathability: are there other options and layering techniques? on 02/13/2014 14:48:06 MST Print View

Tom,

Take one garment to an independent local lab and measure its air permeability. POOF... no more doubt, perhaps, or maybe. You will experience much less angst knowing for sure (smile).

Woubeir (from Europe)
(Woubeir) - F - MLife
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Current UL windshirts and breathability: are there other options and layering techniques? on 02/13/2014 15:10:00 MST Print View

Richard,
I will always have doubt. It's my scientific background. Wouls I be worthy of my degree if I didn't have that. It's not angst; it's just a curious mind. :-)

Michael Gillenwater
(mwgillenwater) - M

Locale: Seattle area
New OR "hybrid" wind shirt? on 02/13/2014 18:16:51 MST Print View

http://www.outdoorresearch.com/en/catalog/product/view/id/41052/category/2158/?mc_cid=18b5806b13&mc_eid=ed871ae5ab

Just came across this new jacket from OR. At least it is new to me. Seems like an interesting idea. Some other manufacturer must have done something like this before, no?

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: New OR "hybrid" wind shirt? on 02/13/2014 21:15:11 MST Print View

Nice idea, using Pertex Shield for the hood and shoulders. With a pack on, it leaves just the front panels and sleeves. Not too much of a weight hit either. Should be great for those drizzly days when you choose wet from sweat or rain. As spendy as the Westcomb Crest, of course. Durnit :)

Edited by dwambaugh on 02/14/2014 10:37:46 MST.

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: an interesting Nike contender on 02/13/2014 21:42:38 MST Print View

I found a Nike Hurricane Vapor running jacket today. It's an interesting design: super breathable fabric like an old Houdini, with mesh lining in the hood shoulders, upper and lower arms--- all the places you would feel the cold on your skin. Weight isn't bad at 6.5oz. It has drawstrings in the hood and hem, 2-way front zipper and a self-stowing pocket near the right kidney. My sample is used, so I can't vouch for the DWR. Sizing is small-- I would go up at least one size.

Nike Hurricane Vapor running jacket.

Woubeir (from Europe)
(Woubeir) - F - MLife
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Current UL windshirts and breathability: are there other options and layering techniques? on 02/14/2014 08:22:47 MST Print View

Coincidentally, I got to see the SS14 range guide from Berghaus today and I took a look at their soft- and windshell fabrics. Maximum a CFM of 25.