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just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Replies to Gear section thread "Gear Swap Practices" on 01/26/2014 16:20:21 MST Print View

nm

Edited by ArcturusBear on 01/26/2014 21:26:41 MST.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Replies to Gear section thread "Gear Swap Practices" on 01/26/2014 17:55:50 MST Print View

nm

Edited by ArcturusBear on 01/26/2014 21:28:05 MST.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Replies to Gear section thread "Gear Swap Practices" on 01/26/2014 18:45:59 MST Print View

nm

Edited by ArcturusBear on 01/26/2014 21:28:54 MST.

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Replies to Gear section thread "Gear Swap Practices on 01/26/2014 19:10:30 MST Print View

"I'm not sure what you are trying to say here Franco"
I'll explain the problem...

You are basically calling another forum member dishonest because he buys and sells all the time possibly for a profit
(I don't know that, just posting your take on it, for all I know he could be one of the many that likes to try things out and or play with gear)

You then want a discount because the item in question (the Gatewood Cape you were after) was bought ALMOST TWO YEARS BEFORE and (your assumption) used in the meantime.

Not obvious to you but those two arguments cancel each other.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re on 01/26/2014 19:34:27 MST Print View

I am with Franco on this.

Justin, is it unethical in your opinion to buy a house and ten years later sell it for more than you paid for?

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Replies to Gear section thread "Gear Swap Practices on 01/26/2014 20:12:35 MST Print View

nm

Edited by ArcturusBear on 01/26/2014 21:29:30 MST.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re on 01/26/2014 20:18:04 MST Print View

nm

Edited by ArcturusBear on 01/26/2014 21:30:15 MST.

Mike Gervais
(MikeG) - M
Tempest do you own anything of value? on 01/26/2014 20:36:34 MST Print View

Such idealism smacks of not having a dog in the fight.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re on 01/26/2014 20:43:51 MST Print View

Justin,
I think you are a nice guy and I am not saying that in a condescending way. I also think that you come off as better than thou, implying that the rest of us just cannot understand what living an ethical life means.
This may not be a question of ethics, but it may not be the nicest thing to do, assuming that someone on the forum lacks ethics based on the sale of one item.
What life one truly lives is way too hard to tell from what people write on an online forum; one can make assumptions and that is about it.

It is easy to condemn someone we do not know at all for trying to make a few bucks. That is not a sign of greed to me.

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: Replies to Gear section thread "Gear Swap Practices" on 01/26/2014 20:46:15 MST Print View

I've never heard such whining in all my life. Grow a pair and get on with it.

What you have done here is far more destructive to any sense of community. You're like Joe McCarthy, just trying to garner attention for yourself. For shame.

NO WHINING

Edited by dwambaugh on 01/26/2014 20:50:52 MST.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Tempest do you own anything of value? on 01/26/2014 20:50:05 MST Print View

nm

Edited by ArcturusBear on 01/26/2014 22:25:10 MST.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Tempest do you own anything of value? on 01/26/2014 23:01:49 MST Print View

Btw, after thinking about it some, i apologize for projecting my sense of ethics onto others and expecting others to think similarly. That's limiting and only tends to foster separation and discord. We all have different ways of looking at things, and my way isn't necessarily the best. I was speaking from the space of the golden rule and that i treat others how i would like to be treated, and since i wouldn't upcharge others on gear swap on a used item, i sometimes automatically and unthinkingly expect the same of others.

Marko Botsaris
(millonas) - F - MLife

Locale: Santa Cruz Mountains, CA
Re: Re: Replies to Gear section thread "Gear Swap Practices" on 01/26/2014 23:35:21 MST Print View

"I've never heard such whining in all my life. Grow a pair and get on with it."

There's no crying in baseball!

cry


Every time you "apologize" it seems to take the form of an "I'm so sorry for expecting you guys to be as good/sensitive/open minded as me". Like I said a while back - passive aggressive.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Re: Replies to Gear section thread "Gear Swap Practices" on 01/26/2014 23:49:17 MST Print View

Thought you said awhile back you were ignoring me hence forth? Couldn't help yourself?

Mark, from your consistently rather lengthy posts here, i could say what i think of you and your issues, but what good would that do me, you, or the community here oh ye who is so free from all issues and human lacks.

I haven't apologized much here at all either. I did apologize for my grumpiness when i was home sick, bored and irritated in general almost a month back.

Roger Dodger
(RogerDodger) - F

Locale: Wess Siide
Re: Re: Re: Re: Replies to Gear section thread "Gear Swap Practices" on 01/28/2014 12:18:09 MST Print View

Saw this cartoon a while back.

Husband madly typing on his laptop.
Wife nags: When are you coming to bed?
Husband: Hold on! Someone on the Internet is wrong!


I've often seen overpriced items for sale on Gear Swap, and when I enquired for the reason, I got barked at, since I could always buy it at REI with a 15% to 30% off, AND free shipping.

Unfortunately the 75% of the posts on Gear Swap are Gear Scams, overpriced with no value add. I gravitated to the BPL marketplace because I naively considered it to be a higher caliber than the dark alleys of eBay's stolen and counterfeit products.

I still look on Gear Swap, but I also look on the seller's forum profile. I skip and ignore the fast and furious peddlers that have no forum community contributions.

Sad and True to the sayings:
A fool and his money will soon part.

Let the buyer beware.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caveat_emptor

To be fair, the 25% of the Gear Swap posters that have improved an existing product or created a new product, are not Gear Scams, their prices are competitive and I value their posts and recommend them to my friends.

While we are at it, I have 20 used assorted tea bags, soaked once, slightly used, they still have the tags on. HAHA. I'm selling the lot for $20, I secretly only paid $3 new.
Yeah.... exactly.

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Replies to Gear section thread "Gear Swap Practices on 01/28/2014 15:07:55 MST Print View

"Unfortunately the 75% of the posts on Gear Swap are Gear Scams, overpriced with no value add"
So about 75% of the buyers there are suckers.
Or do you mean that because the price is not low enough for you but good enough for someone else , that makes the former dishonest and the latter stupid ?

How about just for "fun" you have a look at the last 4 pages (25 threds per page) and find those 75 scam posts so that we can have a better idea of what you mean ?
Or just do one page and list the 19 out of 25 that are ?

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Replies to Gear section thread "Gear Swap Practices on 01/28/2014 15:22:48 MST Print View

I also question the 75% being either scams or overpriced items.

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: Re: Replies to Gear section thread "Gear Swap Practices on 01/28/2014 21:17:48 MST Print View

Steaming!

Roger Dodger
(RogerDodger) - F

Locale: Wess Siide
Re: Re: Re: Replies to Gear section thread "Gear Swap Practices on 01/29/2014 12:00:41 MST Print View

For the record, R.caffin commented that buy-low, sell high, is acceptable, and it's his website, so the fast and furious gear resellers are compliant with the site policy of free economics and trade.

As a potential buyer and consumer of gear, I look for value in the product quality, cost, warranty and return policy when available. I used to consider BPL for sale posts as a reasonably fair trade. Here is an example of what I consider price gouging and overpaying. You want to pay more, for less options, great, lighten your wallet. This is a turn off and for my perspective goes against the community concept, and instead it belongs on eBay's dark alleys.

Take this for example, though it's not my intent to single out this individual, this behavior is common.

1. This person buys a product for price X from a store chain.


http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=86612&skip_to_post=738163#738163

2. The product is still available for sale TODAY at the same price X, with the store return policy and warranty.

http://www.sears.com/nordictrack-men-s-microfleece-pullover-jacket/p-041VA57152512P?prdNo=2&blockNo=2&blockType=G2

3. This person is trying to re-sell the same product for 2X price, without a receipt, without the store return policy, and without a warranty.
Possibly the item has been worn, even though it has the tag on. As many keep tags on with usage with the intent to resell used items as new.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=86891&skip_to_post=740552#740552


What is the added value to the BPL community does this For Sale adv have?

While this is BPL website policy compliant per R.Caffin, it's does not add value to buyer, who will not have the option to return to store, will not have the manufacturer warranty with no original receipt, and insult to injury, paid 2X for an item available STILL for sale from a reputable company for 1X.

This is why I am turned off by the Gear Swap forum.

The ones really hurt are the cottage business that make their own original and unique products, hats, pot lids, books, Ti stakes grills and scoopers, beer can stoves and tents, that are the true inovators and sell their items at honest fair and competitive pricing.

Edited by RogerDodger on 01/29/2014 14:03:40 MST.

Roger Dodger
(RogerDodger) - F

Locale: Wess Siide
Boat re-sale and karma on 01/29/2014 12:28:41 MST Print View

On the west coast, there is a superstition that it's bad karma to flip/resell a boat for more than it was purchased within a short timeframe, with the consideration that there was no significant upgrades done.

Roger Dodger
(RogerDodger) - F

Locale: Wess Siide
Reply to Kat. on 01/29/2014 12:34:59 MST Print View

> is it unethical in your opinion to buy a house and ten years later sell it for
> more than you paid for?

Kat,
No disrespect intended. I wanted to respond to your question, because it was valid.

A house building with no additional upgrades depreciates in value due to weather, and deterioration, however the land supposedly can appreciate or depreciate because of external factors such as high/low crime rate, school district, surrounding neighbors, flood zoning, nearby attractions, regional job market, etc...

House A in City X identical build to House A in City Z will not have same value, so the valuation will differ. It's not an identical match due to many external variables.

However, a factory made outdoors product being sold at the retail store is in the best condition. In some cases the individual reselling a product may have a less than best condition, and now without receipt return option, manufacturer warranty, and possibly item has been circulating in the consumer market, outside the retail market.

A house resale value is not a good comparision to a backpacking retail shelf product resold without inspection.

Edited by RogerDodger on 01/29/2014 14:14:21 MST.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Reply to Kat. on 01/29/2014 17:34:38 MST Print View

I get your point Roger, but I still have to meet someone that during the housing bubble would not take more than they paid for when selling their house, irregardless of improvements.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Boat re-sale and karma on 02/02/2014 21:09:05 MST Print View

I find all this really wierd. Here we have America, the champion of freedom, independence and capitalism for the whole world ... and a few people want heavy-handed rules and regulations about what a vendor can ask for some goods.

You might get that sort of state interference in a Communist or Fascist society, but here in the free world on the internet????????

I boggle. If you don't like the price, don't buy!
If you want to mention that the price is too high (for whatever reason), feel free to do so (politely).
It's a free world!

Cheers

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Boat re-sale and karma on 02/02/2014 21:23:50 MST Print View

+1 Roger.
All we need is more rules ...

Roger Dodger
(RogerDodger) - F

Locale: Wess Siide
Re: Re: Re: Boat re-sale and karma on 02/02/2014 23:26:52 MST Print View

Roger Caffin, Kat,

I am not against the free market, profit and Capitalism in the real world.
I am not looking to shutdown eBay and Amazon.

Kat used the example of the real estate market boom and many profited from selling at high prices. That's the free market that I'm totally OK with.

What I am whining about (more cheese with that wine please) is that BPL is a community. Amazon and eBay are are free markets without a community.

When selling a product to your brother (assuming you like your brother,) or selling a car to your son, or selling a power tool to a member of your adventure club, or buying a used piano from someone in your church community, do you gouge with the intent to make an excessive profit? or do you set a fair value price, based on the original price of a brand new item at a retail store, then reduce a percentage based on age and condition. That's ethics, and good karma. You can't legislate ethics.

Buying a new product from a retailer for price 1X, then a week later trying to resell for 3X on Gear Swap, when it's still available at the retailer for 1X is disrespectful to the BPL community. Again, you can't legislate respect.

Here's how I used to see it. Community meant trust. I definitely don't trust the dark back alleys merchants of eBay and Amazon marketplace (or Silk Road anyone?) so they have a rating and sellers reputation, to close the gap.

Here on BPL, where people debate for 10 pages the nano weight of lint, formed a community of free advice and freely share MYOG tips. So it's only reasonable to think that when selling a product among members, the price would be set in good faith and honesty.

Look at the profile of some of those posters on Gear Swap, they are using their BPL presence to profiteer and exploit. They take more out then they put in.

But in the end, this is your site Roger Caffin. You set the policy.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Re: Re: Boat re-sale and karma on 02/03/2014 08:53:34 MST Print View

"But in the end, this is your site Roger Caffin. You set the policy."

I think that's twice you've said that, but it's not true. Roger is simply a moderator (well, and a sometime rabble-rouser, but he is an Aussie, so it's expected). This is Ryan Jordan's site. Ryan sets the policy, not Roger.

"What I am whining about (more cheese with that wine please) is that BPL is a community. Amazon and eBay are are free markets without a community."

I think many of us see it as a community, but obviously many don't. They're here to sell stuff and read stuff, not to contribute or communicate. And that's okay, it's allowed. It's not how I choose to use the site, it's not how many others choose to use the site. But, really, every community has 'members' who don't really participate or contribute, BPL is no different. It's pretty easy to recognize those folks, and interface with them accordingly, FWIW.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Boat re-sale and karma on 02/03/2014 09:11:10 MST Print View

I have no problem with gear swap. I feel like it would be improper of me to post something like "you can get that for the same price new" or whatever.


"Kat used the example of the real estate market boom and many profited from selling at high prices. That's the free market that I'm totally OK with."

I have a huge problem with real estate bubble. It was precipitated by loans that were made to people that couldn't afford it. Because a bunch of scamster bankers were make mega money "packaging" these loans and selling to people that didn't know they were junk. Because they paid off politicians to eliminate regulations. And then, the bubble inevitably crashed, which then took down the world economy.

This is the problem with "the free market". Inevitably, insiders scam unsuspecting people and you get bubbles and crashes.

Leading up to the 1930s "great depression" there were a series of great depressions, then they put those regulations in the 1930s, things were much calmer until the Reagan/Friedman/Clinton/Bush free market repeal of those regulations.

Roger Dodger
(RogerDodger) - F

Locale: Wess Siide
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Boat re-sale and karma on 02/03/2014 09:14:52 MST Print View

Doug,
Thanks for the correction.

I've beat the dead horse dead-er-er far into it's next 12 reincarnations.

This dead horse meat topic is ready to be served in the Canadian school lunch cafeteria :)

Ian Destroyer of Forums
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Boat re-sale and karma on 02/03/2014 10:56:44 MST Print View

This is an area where it's best to let adults negotiate what they think is a fair price regardless of the seller's desire to make a profit. Of course my wife would quickly mention that I'm an overgrown man-child so I have to reconsider my qualifications to enter into these agreements.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 02/03/2014 13:39:05 MST.

Damian Chavez
(DamianC) - F

Locale: Southern California
PM sent on 02/03/2014 13:34:46 MST Print View

"I have 20 used assorted tea bags, soaked once, slightly used,  HAHA. I'm selling the lot for $20, I secretly only paid $3 new."

Pics?

David Olsen
(bivysack.com) - F

Locale: Channeled Scablands
lolly on 02/03/2014 16:45:59 MST Print View

I have a black licorice lolly pop for sale. Don't really care for the black. As a bonus, it has been unwrapped for quick access and pre-moistened.

Edited by bivysack.com on 02/03/2014 20:58:36 MST.

Brian Crain
(brcrain) - F

Locale: So Cal
Re: lolly on 02/03/2014 17:42:19 MST Print View

"I have a black licorice lolly pop for sales. Don't really care for the black. As a bonus, it has been unwrapped for quick access and pre-moistened."

I'm looking specifically for one with the stick modded to a length of 22mm - or removed and replaced with a ti rod - so as to bring the total weight under 28 grams. Thanks for the offer though.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: lolly on 02/03/2014 18:25:15 MST Print View

I hate licorice

thanks anyway

Sumi Wada
(DetroitTigerFan) - F

Locale: Ann Arbor
Re: Replies to Gear section thread "Gear Swap Practices" on 02/05/2014 07:51:19 MST Print View

Ultimately, I think *most* of us here would agree that it's gauche to use the Gear Swap as a profit-making tool, and would find it offensive if someone was blatantly doing so.

I would also guess that if it became obvious someone was using the site just to flip gear, it would be noted. So, basically, we're talking "etiquette" and relying on peer pressure to enforce. No rules necessary.

But that's not the same thing as tarring-and-feathering someone who may have made a few bucks once, and the implication that it's the greedy-American attitude that's letting him/her get away with it.

JMO.

Tony Ronco
(tr-browsing) - MLife
RE: Replies to Gear section thread "Gear Swap Practices on 02/05/2014 08:27:32 MST Print View

Another + 1 on Roger Caffin's reply.

Caveat emptor

IMHO, Buyers (= adults) do indeed have a responsibility to research the both item being offered and the seller's history on this forum.



RE: "I have a black licorice lolly pop for sale. Don't really care for the black. As a bonus, it has been unwrapped for quick access and pre-moistened."

Q: Is this the pre-2013 model or the 2013 model?

Roger Dodger
(RogerDodger) - F

Locale: Wess Siide
Re: Re: Replies to Gear section thread "Gear Swap Practices" (Reply to Sumi) on 02/05/2014 09:37:15 MST Print View

> So, basically, we're talking "etiquette" and relying on peer pressure to enforce.

I agree Sumi.

I would like to read more from you on how this is done politely, without the tar/feather, McArthy/Witch hunt.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Replies to Gear section thread "Gear Swap Practices" (Reply to Sumi) on 02/05/2014 10:18:32 MST Print View

Is it inconsistent with etiquette to use Gear Swap blatently as profit making tool?

I don't care, I don't buy or sell and don't really mind reading posts from others.

Maybe the only etiquette is to not take someone's money without shipping what you said?

Ian Destroyer of Forums
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Replies to Gear section thread "Gear Swap Practices" (Reply to Sumi) on 02/05/2014 10:21:09 MST Print View

"I would like to read more from you on how this is done politely, without the tar/feather, McArthy/Witch hunt."

I'm on a couple Facebook forums for buying/selling crap. The moderators and community actually prefer for all negotiations to be done on the thread instead of through PMs. I personally don't see anything wrong with respectfully explaining why you think an item is overpriced, what a fair price would be (in your opinion) and publicly posting a lower offer.

I've yet to sell anything on Gear Swap but I try to comment on the following after making a purchase

1. Item as described in the OP
2. Purchase price and date sold
3. Date mailed
4. Date/condition received as compared to how it was described

Keep it factual and the information will speak for itself imo.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 02/05/2014 10:46:03 MST.

Kronos Master of Fate
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: "Gear Swap Practices" on 02/05/2014 20:12:46 MST Print View

I gotta find some stuff to sell so I can p*ss someone off. This thread has some hilarious posts that I am sure were not meant to be.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Replies to Gear section thread "Gear Swap Practices" on 02/05/2014 20:47:00 MST Print View

"But that's not the same thing as tarring-and-feathering someone who may have made a few bucks once,..."


Just to note, the person i mentioned has well over 100 posts, and last i checked, only in gear swap, buying and selling.

They are clearly an Ebayer BPL member here. While i can't be certain, it's logical to assume they are here to make profit, to buy lower and sell higher when they can. Some see that as "ok", some don't, what'evs.

Also, pretty hard to tar and feather someone when you keep them completely anonymous. I didn't even hint so much as to the gender of the person.

Nuff said. Not even sure why this thread is still going on when i erased most of my posts, left the scene awhile back, etc.

Ian Destroyer of Forums
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Replies to Gear section thread "Gear Swap Practices" on 02/05/2014 20:51:12 MST Print View

"I gotta find some stuff to sell so I can p*ss someone off."

I'll take it sight unseen. Will you take $7 and a half eaten power bar? I promise to spend at least fifteen minutes running around the neighborhood in lukewarm wrath.

Kronos Master of Fate
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: "Gear Swap Practices" on 02/05/2014 21:47:25 MST Print View

I take that offer. But you must remove the price from your post after the deal. You keep the half Power Bar if you pay using Friends and Family selection. or add 3% to that bar. CONUS only.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: "Gear Swap Practices" on 02/05/2014 21:50:04 MST Print View

Ken got it from me two years ago for only $3.50 and a 1/4 eaten Powerbar. And he's probably stained it since then.

And now he's selling to you for twice the price?

Some community member.

Ian Destroyer of Forums
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: "Gear Swap Practices" on 02/05/2014 22:05:13 MST Print View

You keep your 1/4 stained power bar, I'll STILL throw in my 1/2 power bar (oops I was hungry) 1/3 power bar, a Walmart trekking pole which was ravaged by a marmot but still works 63% of the time 100% of the time, AND.... a myog pair of carbon fiber Crocs that didn't quite work out.

William F
(wkf) - F

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: "Gear Swap Practices" on 02/06/2014 17:02:15 MST Print View

haha, all this talk about licked lollipops and ⅓ powerbars reminds me of a particular character from In Living Color back in the day. Maybe this belongs in the multiple use gear or MYOG section but here goes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BNgRpRuWGs

That show was sooooo good. Check out more Anton Jackson videos if interested in M.U.G. or if you are just into stretching things really thin. Today we have Critter style, but before the Critter there was this guy.

Kronos Master of Fate
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: "Gear Swap Practices" on 02/08/2014 22:39:30 MST Print View

"And he's probably stained it since then."

No. But I did dye it.