Uniqlo UL Down Parka reduced $10 - now $59.90
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Delmar O'Donnell
(Bolster)

Locale: Between Jacinto & Gorgonio
Down on 01/28/2014 20:53:02 MST Print View

I take your point. Do you think the multiplier for down is off?

I don't imagine the CLO would be THAT much different between 800 and 700-740-750 FP down (take your pick of estimates) that Uniqlo uses. (Remember that their 640 down is "on the Japanese scale" and would be higher on the US scale).

Edited by Bolster on 01/28/2014 23:53:14 MST.

Mitchell Ebbott
(mebbott) - F - M

Locale: SoCal
Re: Down on 01/28/2014 21:45:50 MST Print View

The best information I could find says Uniqlo uses the European scale, which runs 100 lower than the US scale. That would put the Uniqlo stuff at 740 fill power. I can't find the thread where the down multiplier is listed, does he list any fill powers other than 800?

The variable could also be the loft height, that makes a big difference in the formula. As I mentioned, the fill on my parka is somewhat uneven. Using the lower (but not quite lowest) loft number I measured gives a single-layer loft height of .65", which (using the 800 fill multiplier) gives a CLO of 2.2. That sounds more likely to me.

Then again, the Uniqlo fabric is really quite light and the Alpine Light got high marks for durability, implying a heavier fabric. That makes more of a difference than the weight of the down.

Rick M
(rmjapan) - F

Locale: London, UK
Re: Down on 01/28/2014 23:13:09 MST Print View

>>(Remember that their 640 down is "on the Japanese scale" and would be higher on the US scale).<<

Don't think so. Japan specs are the same min 640fp for these pieces and Japan uses the same standard as the USA.

Delmar O'Donnell
(Bolster)

Locale: Between Jacinto & Gorgonio
Re: Re: Down on 01/28/2014 23:29:28 MST Print View

Mitchell: Nisley gives the Iclo of an inch of 800 FP down at 6.562: "800+ down fill is 6.562 clo per inch" in thread 9378. By comparison, an inch of cotton reportedly gives a CLO of 4. Perhaps the loft measurement is the culprit as you say. I've given my jacket multiple loft measurements, resting a light ruler across the top of several baffles, and using another ruler to measure the distance from tabletop to bottom of horizontal ruler. I pretty consistently come up with 7/8 for a double layer (.44 for a single layer) over multiple attempts to measure. So your parka still appears to be significantly loftier than my jacket.

Rick you may be right, but if you are, you contradict several posts to the contrary, which state that Uniqlo use either Japanese or Euro scale (different posts reference different scales), one or both of which are reported to be lower than the US scale. I've also read several mentions here on BPL that the Uniqlo down doesn't have the look and loft of American 640. But...I don't have first hand knowledge here, just reporting what I've read. I've never gotten the impression that the +100 is definitive. But then, we're far into the Nerd Ether here.

I haven't a clue to where you'd go to confirm or disconfirm that Am, Euro and Jap ratings for down FP are different or the same. I've just read plenty of posts declaring they're different, and that the Am is "inflated." Perhaps someone can furnish a reference.

Edited by Bolster on 01/28/2014 23:51:20 MST.

Mitchell Ebbott
(mebbott) - F - M

Locale: SoCal
Re: Re: Re: Down on 01/28/2014 23:56:39 MST Print View

FWIW, the information that their advertised fill power is in the European scale came directly from Uniqlo. They had it on the product page at one point, and customer service confirmed it in an email to me. I imagine the rumor that it's on a Japanese scale started because they're a Japanese company.

The US=EUR+100 formula is less reliably sourced.

Edited by mebbott on 01/28/2014 23:57:18 MST.

Rick M
(rmjapan) - F

Locale: London, UK
Re: Re: Re: Down on 01/29/2014 00:23:35 MST Print View

Delmar, these links may reveal more "official" info. Unfortunately, you may have to rely on translation software. But the gist is Japanese companies follow both a domestic JIS L 1903 "Down Power" and IDFB (International Down and Feather Bureau) "Fill Power" standard of measurement and rating.

http://www.qtec.or.jp/jp/index.php?id=395

http://www.qtec.or.jp/jp/index.php?id=548

http://www.qtec.or.jp/jp/index.php?id=438

http://www.qtec.or.jp/jp/index.php?id=439

Any past variances between countries appear to related to sample size, e.g. 1oz (28.4g) vs. 30g and the sample pre-conditioning. But pretty much all independent labs worldwide now use the same IDBF Lorch cylinder test method and steam pre-conditioning.

Edited by rmjapan on 01/29/2014 03:33:24 MST.

Richard Nisley
(richard295) - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Down insulation clo/inch depends on its density plus other stuff on 01/29/2014 01:00:03 MST Print View

Most manufacturers offer products with the lowest possible 800 fill density of ~2.16 kg/m^3. This is done in part because most consumers erroneously believe only thickness determines warmth. For this class of product, the iClo/inch averages ~2.56. Uniglo products are almost certainly in this density range.

For 800 fill down at a maximum thickness-efficiency-density (aka lowest W/m K) of 24.028 kg/m^3, the iClo/inch averages ~6.56. I don't know of any manufacturer who produces products in this density range.

Besides not knowing what the insulation density of down used in a product, the loft will also vary with: the relative humidity; the movement of the down; and the point measured. A good illustration of the daily loft measurement variability was discussed in the very first BPL article I ever read by Alan Dixon. He said, "...Measuring the loft of a down garment is a difficult thing. Each of the many chambers has a slightly different loft. Measure a jacket once, pick it up and shake it, put it down and measure it again, and you won’t get the same number. Measure it a day later and you’ll get yet another number. All of the jackets increased 10% to 20% in loft over the week of observation... "

Edited by richard295 on 01/29/2014 21:06:58 MST.

Delmar O'Donnell
(Bolster)

Locale: Between Jacinto & Gorgonio
Recalculation on 01/29/2014 16:21:11 MST Print View

A range of 2.6 to 6.6 iClo for good down is quite a range; this surprises me. I guess there's a big advantage to packing it in tight (up to a point).

I believe an inch of cotton is listed as iClo of 4, and I'd never thought of an inch of down being almost half as efficient as an inch of cotton.

So if we run a ballpark calculation on a Uniqlo UL jacket with the new low down (“lowdown” ha ha) multiplier supplied above:

.44 x 2.6 x .50* = CLO of .57, about the same as an R1 hoody (.54) or a Nanopuff vest (.55). (I own a Nanopuff vest, and the Uniqlo jacket is much warmer.)

And recalculating the Parka:

.75 x 2.6 x .52 = CLO of 1.0, just a bit warmer than a Polartec 300 sweater (.92) or a wool work suit.

(*Note: Jacket or shirt is usually .48 but I upped it to .50 because the jacket’s cut so low below the waistline)

Edited by Bolster on 01/29/2014 16:35:34 MST.

Delmar O'Donnell
(Bolster)

Locale: Between Jacinto & Gorgonio
Asian or European? on 01/29/2014 16:30:33 MST Print View

Mitchell & Rick: the source of my confusion, here:

"Thank you for contacting the UNIQLO USA Customer Center. Regarding our fill power it is on the Asian scale and is 640 FP." Thread 69741.

"Found a review that stated the 640fp was EU rating." Also thread 69741.

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=69741

Edited by Bolster on 01/29/2014 16:32:31 MST.

Rick M
(rmjapan) - F

Locale: London, UK
Re: Asian or European? on 01/29/2014 17:09:19 MST Print View

To emphasize, there is no longer a difference between US, EU, or "Asian" ratings for down used in garments as tested by worldwide independent labs for international sale. They all follow the IDFB (International Down and Feather Bureau) "Fill Power" standard of measurement and rating, e.g. sample inspection for down content and quality, steam preconditioning and Lorch cylinder test. It has been this way for several years now.

Of course, variation in test accuracy between labs around the world can be expected as well as the factors alluded to, e.g. fill power changes over time with humidity, temp and age/wear & tear on the garment.

Over time, lower FP down fares better and is more cost effective and the preferred choice when weight and volume are not factors, e.g. bedding duvet. But for UL backpacking, high FP is the desired primary feature. With consumer pressure on for ethical supply chain, high FP down is getting more expensive, especially in the last year, and may be why we are starting to see down/synth blends coming to market.

Edited by rmjapan on 01/29/2014 17:10:40 MST.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Asian or European? on 01/29/2014 19:28:53 MST Print View

Rick, does the new standard of measurement correspond to the old US one, the EU one, or is it different than both?

Thanks

Rick M
(rmjapan) - F

Locale: London, UK
Re: Re: Re: Asian or European? on 01/29/2014 20:23:23 MST Print View

Justin, I am not a textile expert. Just a dude with average Google-fu and too much free time to waste reading online documents from "official" sources, i.e. labs, OEMs, and trade groups. If you have the time to waste, these sources are a fountainhead of info.

But to answer your question, I understand the US method based on ASTM D-4522 seems to have been adapted as the IDFB "world" standard with the help of Japanese steam pre-conditioning research since 2005.

http://www.idfl.com/pdfs/IDFL%20Fill%20Power%20-%20Questions%20and%20Answers/

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Re: Re: Asian or European? on 01/29/2014 20:39:22 MST Print View

Ah... Hah, i would say your google fu may be at least a bit above average as this is the first i've heard of this development. Perhaps not being college educated, nor primarily left brained, i sometimes have a hard time with the more technical articles.

Thanks much for the link and reply

Delmar O'Donnell
(Bolster)

Locale: Between Jacinto & Gorgonio
Advanced. on 01/29/2014 21:09:18 MST Print View

Agreed, that's advanced Google-fu. Don't try it at home, kids.

Odd that Uniqlo would respond "Asian scale" if there is but one. Do they know??

Thanks for the new info Rick. Where do I send my tuition money, and how many Yen do I owe?

Edited by Bolster on 01/29/2014 23:44:58 MST.

Rick M
(rmjapan) - F

Locale: London, UK
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Asian or European? on 01/29/2014 21:11:05 MST Print View

The IDFL site was off line yesterday, but I just read this from their 2011 newsletter:

http://www.idfl.com/media/pdfs/news/IDFL%20Newsletter%20-%202011-8.pdf

Then I saw this FP reporting change from 2013:

http://www.idfl.com/media/pdfs/news/IDFL%20Newsletter%202013-3.pdf

Which might explain the recent appearance of FP850 down in products that used to be rated FP800 when using the conversion chart from the Japanese lab I linked to above:

http://www.qtec.or.jp/jp/index.php?id=548

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Advanced. on 01/29/2014 21:14:48 MST Print View

"Agreed, that's advanced Google-fu. Don't try it at home"

Yeah, you wouldn't want to poke your eye out or anything, heaven forbid. Typing so fast, fingers flying, and then BAM, one bounces off the keyboard in a freak body or physics reaction, and there you are with a finger in your eye. More eyes have been lost that way than folks realize. A very serious issue, that we need to raise awareness about.

Delmar O'Donnell
(Bolster)

Locale: Between Jacinto & Gorgonio
I tried advanced google fu once... on 01/29/2014 23:43:10 MST Print View

No kidding!

My wife took this photo of me shortly after I attempted some advanced google-fu, and failed:

google fu

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: I tried advanced google fu once... on 01/30/2014 19:13:57 MST Print View

Man, you certainly took it to the next level there Delmar!

Edited by ArcturusBear on 01/31/2014 16:27:56 MST.

Tim Czarkowski
(buylow12) - MLife

Locale: South East
Sizing? on 02/24/2014 23:52:09 MST Print View

I'm about 6'2" 155 lbs, what do you all think, medium or large?

I was going to wait till next year to get another jacket but this seems like a great deal.

Thanks,

Mark Andrews
(buldogge) - F

Locale: Midwest
Re: Sizing? on 02/25/2014 07:41:21 MST Print View

On the Parka I have (from last year) you wouldn't want any larger than a medium.

I'm 6'/180-185/41" chest and I have the medium.

-Mark in St. Louis