Pad Straps Below Single Layer Hammock?
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Joe Medlin
(kc_joe)
Pad Straps Below Single Layer Hammock? on 12/19/2013 11:46:54 MST Print View

Someone shoot me down here as I'm feeling like this has been tried but why not sew a few 'strips' of light weight material on the underside of a (1.1 ripstop) single layer hammock to slide the pad into? What am I missing that makes this a bad idea...just seems 'too simple'.

Steven McAllister
(brooklynkayak) - MLife

Locale: Atlantic North East
Pad Straps Below Single Layer Hammock? on 12/20/2013 12:36:01 MST Print View

I think there could be problems with gaps caused by sag of the pad between the straps.

It depends on the pad, but even the slightest gap could zap some warmth.

todd harper
(funnymoney) - MLife

Locale: Sunshine State
Re: Pad Straps Below Single Layer Hammock? on 12/20/2013 13:08:45 MST Print View

Gaps = cold butt.

He's correct - There is almost no way to install enough straps to avoid at LEAST a minimal air gap. Even the tiniest gap means cold air will work its way in, robbing you of warmth and it doesn't get better as you try to "sleep thru it". Trust me!

Save yourself the aggravation and go for the underquilt now. Added expense, yes. Where you'll eventually end up anyway, yes (well - almost certain:) ).

For comfort and warmth, it can't be beat. For price, it can be beat.

Joe Medlin
(kc_joe)
modular system constraints on 12/20/2013 13:30:41 MST Print View

Don't get me wrong, I'm as cheap as anyone with my money. And a big motivation is carrying the extra weight of a quilt over a pad but that's still not my sticking point. I really want this system to be modular and able to go to the ground and the pad is somewhat imperative in that configuration...that and the pad doing the double duty of giving structure to my pack.

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: Pad Straps Below Single Layer Hammock? on 12/20/2013 13:39:52 MST Print View

Yup, you'll get Gaposis which leads to CBS (Cold Butt Syndrome). A double layer hammock is the way to go there.

The Hennessy SuperShelter system uses a waffle OPEN cell foam pad with shock cords on the ends for insulation. That is soft enough to conform to your backside and has the additional heat retention of the undercover. Hennessy recommends adding a space blanket between the pad and the hammock bottom, which works well.

A CCF foam pad also works when used inside. Another way to improve CCF pad use is to add the ENO HotSpot pad holder that fits a 20" wide pad and has insulating "wings" on the sides to keep your sides warm. Not as comfy as an underquilt, but light and inexpensive and you can "go to ground" if you have a conventional pad.

I really want a hammock that has synthetic baffled insulation sewn to the bottom in an asymmetrical layout, in the same way your would lay in the hammock. If it had a zipper on one side, you could add a space blanket or other insulation to extent the range. That would get ride of the gap issue and eliminate the suspension needed for an underquilt.

The other insulation system that I would like to see is an insulated air chamber that could be Velcro mounted to the bottom. I'm thinking of something like a NeoAir made from material like a Mylar balloon--- it only needs to hold up it's own weight, so it can be really thin material. Again, an asymmetrical cut/mount would work great.

Steven McAllister
(brooklynkayak) - MLife

Locale: Atlantic North East
Pad Straps Below Single Layer Hammock? on 12/20/2013 13:44:46 MST Print View

A duplicate post.

Edited by brooklynkayak on 12/20/2013 14:00:14 MST.

Joe Medlin
(kc_joe)
light second layer? on 12/23/2013 12:23:41 MST Print View

Why not make a double layer hammock with your second layer being a very light material (m50? Noseeum? Other suggestions?) since the top layer of 1.1 will be all that is load bearing.

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: light second layer? on 12/23/2013 12:40:46 MST Print View

Typically both layers are sewn together less a gap on the side to insert a pad and both end up being weight bearing due to stretch. Note the weight recommendations on the Warbonnet web site: https://store-2ieh8pn.mybigcommerce.com/hammocks-101/. Stretch is as much a consideration in terms of comfort and hanging geometry as general safety issue.

If you're going to bother with a second layer, it should be somewhat windproof for maximum bang for the weight.

Here's a question: why not a simple pocket for a CCF pad, set on an angle as the user would lay in the hammock, made of the same stretch mesh used for pack side pockets to make it adaptable to varied pad thickness or even layered pads?

Joe Medlin
(kc_joe)
pocket? on 12/23/2013 12:44:58 MST Print View

So you are saying to sew in a pocket layer basically below my body print? i know it's different but for philosophical purposes a skinny second layer?

i guess we are talking about a very small amount of weight if using 1.1 over something lighter so you are probably right. best point being so the stretch is equal. i'm not overly concerned with additional wind resistance since i will probably do more warm weather camping then cold and that could be as much of a bad thing in the heat as it is a good one in the cold.

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: wind and hammocks on 12/23/2013 12:56:39 MST Print View

Wind is what is makes you cold in a hammock. If you are lounging on a hot summer afternoon with a bare hammock, you can feel the slightest breeze, which is a good thing in those conditions. Anything below 60F will find you cold.

You do want a taut outer layer to seal the pad to your backside and eliminate buckling. For warm weather a double layer with a windshield reflector or a space blanket might do the trick. Hennessy has a tapered bubble insulator pad that might be interesting to you:

http://hennessyhammock.com/catalog/products/radiant_double_bubble_pad-xl/

Hennessy  Bubblepad

Joe Medlin
(kc_joe)
clearity on 12/23/2013 13:00:59 MST Print View

just to be clear you are saying to just sew a second layer of 1.1 below my hammock body big enough to hold my pad? so there will be stitching in the middle of my hammock body, any issues with that?

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: clearity on 12/23/2013 13:54:59 MST Print View

"just to be clear you are saying to just sew a second layer of 1.1 below my hammock body big enough to hold my pad? so there will be stitching in the middle of my hammock body, any issues with that?"

I don't recommend it as much as suggest it as an avenue of experimentation. Sewing through the main hammock body may be a bad idea if it weakens the "skin."

I've done a lot of fiddling with hammock insulation schemes, mostly based on using an undercover. My primary undercover is also a poncho, getting back some of the weight in multiple use. You could adapt just about any poncho for use as an undercover.

My current light/summer scheme is a Hennessy SuperShelter open cell foam pad with a space blanket and an undercover. For colder weather, I use a shorter underquilt along with the undercover and space blanket which gives helps reduce the impact of any gaps as well as giving extra rain protection and a windproof layer, exactly like adding a rain shell to your layered clothing.

My personal gripe with the state of current hammock design in the complexity and fiddle factor of the insulation systems. We started with plain fabric hammock bodies made for hot summer backyard naps and started adding tarps, insulation and bug nets to get workable camping shelters. That has created some rather stuck-together designs with a lot of lines and parts and as we know in the UL world, that equals weight.

Ultimately, I think we need a hammock body with baffled insulation sewn to the bottom layer, an integrated bug net and ridge line and a separate tarp. Of course that means the customer staring into the face of a $300 or so price before the tarp is added.

The usual hammock buying trap is starting by getting a hammock and assuming "oh, I'll just use my pad," which leads into a long session of nickle and dime-ing yourself into a contraption that is makeshift, fussy, heavy, expensive, and looks like a backyard laundry line.

The cure is to start over now that we know we want to drag this into the woods and design to that point. We know we are going to need insulation for camping in most of North America for temps anywhere below the mid-60F and will need bug protection and a rain tarp.

Another UL design that comes to mind is to create a bivy hammock. That would have the sewn-in synthetic insulation with a waterproof/breathable outer shell or perhaps waterproof side panels with a breathable center section on an asymmetrical hammock body, a ridgeline style top side (a la Hennessy) with a vented Cuben or silnylon cover and integrated bug screen. That top cover would slightly overlap the sides to channel rain water past the seam and entry zipper, just like the storm flap on a rain jacket. The top should be able to unzip and roll down for warm weather ventilation. The bottom cover could be made with an expandable section so winter insulation could be added. Suspension would be just tree straps, carabiners and whoopie slings so setup would be simply wrapping the tree straps and clipping in: no guylines, stakes, underquilt rigging, etc, etc. Topside insulation would be a conventional sleeping bag or quilt.

Think this style hammock would be very weatherly in the wind and rain. We're talking about a five minute pitch, including tweaking for optimum sag.