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Well we haven't covered immigration this year...
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Desert Dweller
(Drusilla)

Locale: Wild Wild West
Tongue in cheek on 11/27/2013 09:22:07 MST Print View

I was thinking more like tongue in cheek people....wow...if you have any better ideas just pipe up.
We can't support the people we have now.
Hey did anyone see the report on immigration on world news tonight? They of course focused on the issue of exemptions for the children of illegals cause they are "innocent". Is anyone here of the opinion that illegal is ILLEGAL regardless of age?
Flame on!

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
DACA on 11/27/2013 09:33:56 MST Print View

I've met people who can't speak Spanish and have no memory of Mexico who are illegal because they were smuggled in with their parents as babies. Conversely, I've met people who can't speak English, who've spent their whole lives in Mexico, but are US Citizens because they were born here and their parents moved or were deported back to Mexico when they were children.

I believe in the rule of law but I also believe in prosecutorial discretion. If you've ever had a police officer let you go with a warning when you factually violated a traffic or criminal law, then you've received the benefit of prosecutorial discretion. The reality is that our criminal justice and immigration system cannot and should not process every case encountered by law enforcement.

DACA allows for some of these children to adjust status to LPR if certain conditions have been met. With the exception of someone who has been on a non stop crime spree, I think they should be cut some slack.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 11/27/2013 09:38:23 MST.

Desert Dweller
(Drusilla)

Locale: Wild Wild West
Ok on 11/27/2013 09:49:13 MST Print View

Ok, so I'm playing devils advocate here.....
But don't you think doing this gets the foot in the door for more "exemptions". I call it bending the law to suit the times. I'm not saying its BAD, just pointing out that if we start making exceptions it might lead to other exceptions that aren't so beneficial.
I admired the pres when he was interrupted by an illegal oriental student and his supporters during a speech the other day, he pointed out that he cannot just change or over ride the law and that he knew they had to use the system that is already in place to make progress on the issue.
Personally, if I break the law, I don't expect any coddling, I expect to pay the price.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Ok on 11/27/2013 09:55:29 MST Print View

I think those can be handled on a case by case basis. There's something that seems inherently wrong about deporting someone who has spent all of their life in the U.S., has graduated from High School, etc, just because their parents smuggled them in when they were seven years old.

Just my opinion and I respect that you are entitled to yours.

BTW by no means am I the PC or grammar police but I believe "Asian" instead of "Oriental" is correct. I could be wrong.

spelt with a t
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Re: Tongue in cheek on 11/27/2013 09:58:12 MST Print View

If your tongue-in-cheek reads like an unironic colonialist fantasy, you're doing it wrong.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Tongue in cheek on 11/27/2013 10:44:30 MST Print View

"Personally, if I break the law, I don't expect any coddling, I expect to pay the price."

A couple questions have served me well through the years:

"How would I want this person to be treated if they were a family member?"

"What would my kids think if they saw me right now?"

None of this means that I don't enforce the law (or wish for it to be enforced) as much as I try to do it in an evenhanded way and as fairly as I can.

These questions not only help to guide my conduct but also help me form my opinions about proposed legislation. Obviously my vote and writing a letter to my legislators probably has minimal to no impact on how the laws will be written but an avalanche is the result of many individual snowflakes.

Not trying to preach. Thought this was on topic and just wanted to share some thoughts.

Edited out the self righteousy self promotion aspects of this response.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 11/27/2013 18:44:22 MST.

Desert Dweller
(Drusilla)

Locale: Wild Wild West
Alright on 11/27/2013 11:25:47 MST Print View

You are the exception, a very nice exception. My Dad is both a police officer and a Marine and he's of the same mind as you.
Spelt....Yes perhaps I have some irony going on, but so do a lot of us here. If you were constantly forsaken by your government, betrayed by your fellow citizens who happen to be politicians, and had to be on high alert 24/7 for fear of being another statistic of the border issue you might have a little irony too. Go ahead, call me names, cubbyhole me all you want, the facts remain. Immigration is a very hot, emotional issue. But very few of you live where we see the consequences every day. I'm not hard hearted, I'm a compassionate and very giving person. My job for the last 20 years was as the Director for a local charity organization. I'm also not one to pull punches, or put up with crap and things written can be taken wrong and often are. I can be blunt, if my bluntness and honesty offend then don't take it personally. But when I go hiking I'm one of those who finds the bodies, finds the hungry and starving, the injured and I have NEVER turned my back on them and I never will. It's all fine and good to talk online and give opinions and be judgemental, but really are you personally DOING SOMETHING to make an impact on the issue, or are you happy with just sitting on your chair in front of the computer passing judgments?
Sorry Ian, I've got a bit of a temper....done now..I'm going to go do eight miles and blow off some steam. Perhaps someone else will provide a more intelligent discourse.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Border on 11/27/2013 11:40:53 MST Print View

"and had to be on high alert 24/7 for fear of being another statistic of the border issue"

One thing I quickly learned from my TDY in Tucson (worked between Nogales and west desert) is that it's a very dangerous place and there are some very dangerous people coming across. People are getting robbed in their own homes, cars stolen, etc. All of that is very true. I was amazed to see the tons of garbage in the west desert. Discarded backpacks, water jugs, bikes, etc as far as the eye can see. It didn't take long for me to see what's going on down there and how those away from the border really have no idea. Don't know if the media doesn't care or feels compelled to filter it out of the news.

Again, difficult to have an adult conversation on this complicated topic without being called a racist or xenophobe; this usually shuts down the conversation and nothing ever gets better.

Off topic but Tucson is absolutely gorgeous. I live in the desert side of Washington and it's not uncommon for us to see temps in excess of 110* but the temperatures will always drop down to something reasonable at night, normally in the 70*s. You guys never get a break during the summer. I was amazed to see that it was still over 100* at 10pm. If you could figure out how to fix that, I'd move there in a second. I found that almost everyone I met in Tucson to be very down to earth and wonderful people.

Enjoy your hike.

Desert Dweller
(Drusilla)

Locale: Wild Wild West
Border run on 11/27/2013 12:13:45 MST Print View

We tried to solve the temperature issue by moving here, it's 5,500 feet here and 15 degrees cooler than Tucson.
Last week we had four drug busts (and 2 million dollar bust in Nogales) on one night a mile below the section of the AZ Trail I was hiking. I reconned it basically, zipped on through 15 miles in 10 hours of no man's land as fast as I could go. I actually made that damn trail 20 years ago for the AZTA and the FS, so I figured I could do it short and slick. I was going to make two days of it but my sources called while I was out there and told me of more movement south, and I found fresh track of a size 14 shoe so I turned on the afterburners and bailed at Patagonia. I'm calling it "adventure hiking".;-)Red Rock CreekSaddle mountain in the distancesome easy goingborder grasslands

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Drugs on 11/27/2013 12:20:06 MST Print View

Stop the war on drugs; it only drives it all underground. Take the criminal element out of it.
Don't like drugs? Don't take them. Oh, drugs include beer, wine, tranquilizers, stimulants etc.

Edited by Kat_P on 11/27/2013 12:21:03 MST.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Drugs on 11/27/2013 12:26:33 MST Print View

Washington State is one step ahead of you Kat.

.Dope drink

Call me crazy but drinking bong water doesn't sound all that appetizing.

spelt with a t
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Re: Alright on 11/27/2013 16:34:00 MST Print View

I never thought I would say this outside a hipster enclave but...ironic racism is still racism. You've mentioned before the people you've found and helped--I have no doubt you are a kind and generous person. That doesn't make what you said any less White Man's Burden-y.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Ha ha! on 11/27/2013 18:47:49 MST Print View

Just received this advertisement on BPL:

.dui

Desert Dweller
(Drusilla)

Locale: Wild Wild West
? on 11/27/2013 20:06:44 MST Print View

Racism
a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.


Your accusations make no sense. Your feelings are valid but not realistic.
Illegals come in all shapes and sizes and races. I am not a racist.
Illegal is illegal is illegal, period.
LOOK, accusing me of anything still does nothing for anyone, especially the people who suffer.
Here's a question for you. I have friends from England who immigrated. They went through the legal process, took the tests and the oath and did it in the lawful manner. Do you not think it is an insult to them and all others who have met the requirements of gaining citizenship to allow others who have not and whom in fact have broken the law to be given a privilege they have not earned?

Edited by Drusilla on 11/27/2013 20:09:55 MST.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Immigration status vs race on 11/27/2013 20:44:58 MST Print View

Just wanted to throw it out there that immigration status is not the same thing as race. The visa process is admittedly complicated to wade through but a Russian will not be immune from deportation proceedings just because he/she's white.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: ? on 11/27/2013 22:08:13 MST Print View

No, it's not an insult to someone from a first country that comes over the legal way.
Ours is the only border of a first and third world country; that should mean something.
"Illegals ".....the use of just an adjective is insulting.

Many of these people you are talking about, are up at dark, work in a field, know the soil, the weather, the crops. They are closer to this land that most other citizens. Their awful crime: crossing a border to work.
Please.....

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: ? on 11/27/2013 23:21:39 MST Print View

There are a few distinctions for the purpose of this conversation which need to be made.

The first is citizen vs alien. These are legal terms defined by our law, namely the INA.

Once we've determined that someone isn't a citizen and is indeed an alien, then further legal distinctions need to be made but the most basic is determining whether or not they were lawfully admitted. Simply calling them an "alien" will not make that distinction. Calling them an "illegal" may be somewhat colloquial but is accurate as they are present in the U.S. in violation of the law. It's difficult to have this discussion without making that distinction between those who have been lawfully admitted and those who haven't and while these categories may ruffle some feathers in polite society, they are absolutely necessary to determine if someone can legally receive a benefit or not. I think illegal alien is accurate but if that term is upsetting, for the sake of this conversation I think Present Without Admission (PWA) is fine too.

"Many of these people you are talking about, are up at dark, work in a field, know the soil, the weather, the crops."

Absolutely true. The very large majority of Americans have never worked this hard in their lives. The closest I've come to this was working in a produce factory as a kid and I can't think of another job, including digging fox holes, that comes close to how much this job kicked my arse.

Edit: I could have worded that better but I'm tired and heading to bed. Good night all and Happy Thanksgiving.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 11/27/2013 23:32:24 MST.

Desert Dweller
(Drusilla)

Locale: Wild Wild West
Believe me on 11/27/2013 23:39:10 MST Print View

I empathize, I grow all my own food and I am a rancher. And I have starved, I myself was homeless and weighed 120 pounds for four years and I am just an inch and a half under six foot. I know what suffering is, I know the despair of not knowing where the next meal will come from or where the next place my bed that night would be. I sold my paintings on street corners for food! I am not without feelings for those who suffer. But people here seem numb to the suffering of Americans who work hard to hang onto what they earned. Do you know how much suffering has gone on down here? Do you know about how many Americans have been murdered by illegals? Did you know that Bob Krentz was a good man and friend of mine? He was HELPING an illegal and was murdered. Did you know his wife was run over by an illegal without a driver's license while crossing the street after church just weeks after her husband was murdered? No you probably don't cause the media is told not to report these things. Yet we are supposed to bend over backwards for these illegals?

Think about it. If you worked as I and my husband have for over 30 years, paying for a ranch, working hard to raise a family, building fences, raising livestock, growing grass and crops where there was none before, digging wells, and then a TRESPASSER cuts your fences, sets your horses and goats and cows loose to be killed or lost in the night, tramples your fields and leaves your spigots open, deposits trash and human feces, breaks into your outbuildings, steals your food and clothing....scares your children...now how is THAT justified? Cause that is what has happened and is continuing to happen to us down here. Please, PLEASE??? How about please understand your fellow citizen instead of championing people who break the law!

What illegals do is against the law, entering a country without permission is breaking the law and illegal. What is so hard about that to understand?

The crime is that our country does not seek to help make their country a viable place to live. We go all over the world interfering with every tom dick and harry yet we do not a darn thing to help our neighbors lift themselves IN THIER OWN COUNTRY out of abject poverty, so they don't have to break the law by coming here without permission.
I feel like I'm arguing logic to the illogical. I'm done.

Edited by Drusilla on 11/27/2013 23:47:51 MST.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Believe me on 11/28/2013 07:22:49 MST Print View

I don't mean to dismiss your pain and frustration; I do think that you are not distinguishing violent criminals from people that are breaking the law to come work here and feed their families.
I don't think you or I have the statistics as far as what percentage of murders are committed by immigrants that have entered illegally, versus those committed by American citizens. I do know that this here is a violent society we are living in. Then the incarceration rate in the US is the highest in the world ( higher that North Korea, China and Iran by far) and a lot of the prison population exists because of non violent crimes, like drug use.
I have not lived by the border and I understand that living along the " ONLY border in the world between a first and third world country presents many challenges and you see that first hand. Where you put the blame is clear and that is one of the things we disagree on; I disagree with you on extending the blame of violent behavior to all those that cross the border illegally. Next I disagree with you calling these people by just an adjective, and I am not one to be ruled by political correctness either.
I came Into this country legally; I did not come from a third world country and because of that I cannot compare my experience with those that have little choice when it comes to feeding their families.
I speak Spanish and have both worked in the field along some Mexican workers ( along, not as a boss, supervisor etc); I have gotten to know some of them better than most Americans ever will. To some these people would all be criminals because they did break the law. To me, some of them were more upstanding and real and good hearted than most people I have met that are citizens. I make a distinction between what laws people are breaking.
We also seem to disagree about the fact that all laws need to be obeyed. I am very thankful to the brave people in this world that made it a point to break unjust laws and showed us sheepish masses the way. I think we all know laws that had to be broken first and then change came after.
I know that I am pretty extreme in my views on immigration; I believe we should let anyone that is not a criminal, not has a communicable disease have a permit to come work here. Most of them will want to go back to their own homeland whenever they can, and when they are old.
I also believe in decriminalizing drugs as a crucial element in dealing with violent crimes.

I may not live by the border but my beliefs are based on personal experience and a fair amount of reading about immigration as well as the politics and history of borders in general.

Yours truly,
Legal.

Edited by Kat_P on 11/28/2013 13:30:05 MST.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Believe me on 11/28/2013 10:08:39 MST Print View

"I am very thankful to the brave people in this world that made it a point to break unjust laws and showed us sheepish masses the way."

That's a interesting point. Every country I've traveled to including third world nations have their own immigration laws and set criteria of what must be met to immigrate to their country. Again, I'm not talking about non-immigrant visas (tourist), VWP, or refugees.

My position has been that there needs to be an increase and reasonable means to issue visas, especially when there is a labor shortage and we have created a system which relies on hiring people who are not legally here. An interesting example of this is a couple seasons ago, there was a freak occurrence where the cherry harvest overlapped the apple harvest. There were not enough workers to cover the harvest, farmers were looking to lose millions, and even though we were dealing with record unemployment, you couldn't find people willing to pick cherries. They ended up using prison labor to help with the harvest.