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Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Well we haven't covered immigration this year... on 11/25/2013 16:14:54 MST Print View

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2013/11/25/obama-san-francisco-immigration/3699645/

Who knows what the actual law will look like but I much prefer that they work on immigration reform issue by issue instead of a comprehensive piece of legislation.

What I'd personally like to see:

1. The borders locked forcing all entry through the ports of entry where every person can be vetted for lawful entry or denied if they have been convicted of certain criminal offenses. I realize that this is much easier said than done.

2. Greatly reduce the red tape so obtaining a visa is a viable alternative to illegal entry. No visa shall be issued without a full review of the applicant's criminal history.

3. Offer two options for those who are illegally in the U.S. in lieu of deportation. Return to country of citizenship and obtain visa no-harm-no-foul presuming the applicant has not been convicted of certain criminal offenses or adjust status in U.S. to lawful permanent resident but permanently ineligible to naturalize as US citizen. This is obviously controversial and deserving of its own flame war but since both the GOP and Democrats have done nothing to change the immigration status quo, I see this as an area where some discretion should be exercised. Again, neither option would be available for those who have been convicted of serious criminal offenses.

4. Presumably once 1,2,& 3 have been fully implemented, only criminal aliens ineligible to adjust to legal status would remain (that's the theory anyways). eVerify will be mandated on every employer. Sanctions and fines will be enforced on employers who hire illegal aliens (that's the legal term). This will hopefully starve them of jobs and further create a disincentive to illegally enter the U.S.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 11/25/2013 16:18:47 MST.

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
Re: Well we haven't covered immigration this year... on 11/25/2013 17:23:23 MST Print View

Staying away from the flamier parts of your proposal,

>"No visa shall be issued without a full review of the applicant's criminal history. "

There are currently many countries whose citizens can enter the USA for <90 days under the Visa Waiver Program. Most all of Europe now (formerly just Western Europe), Japan, Australia, NZ, etc. They are compared against the no-fly list before being allowed to board.

If we raise the bar for the most friendly countries, all of them will be pissed and some of them will retaliate with their own, onerous procedures. I rather like that I can hop on a plane to most of world whenever I like. It is unfair that I can do that while 5/7 of humanity can't, but I like that I can. Requiring visas for simple tourism is bothersome, reduces revenue from tourism and minimizes the kind of international goodwill we could use more of.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Should have been more clear on 11/25/2013 17:38:19 MST Print View

I'm primarily speaking of immigrant visas for people who will move to the U.S. and reside here as a lawful permanent resident.

I don't see any point to change the VWP or non-immigrant visas (e.g. tourist, student) or at least, unaware of any reason. People entering as part of the VWP (to my knowledge) are spot checked as needed. They are automatically precluded from entering under the VWP if they have certain criminal convictions; that doesn't mean people don't slip through. As far as non-immigrant visas go, I think they can be screened the same as the immigrant visas.

Regarding VWP, Canada spot checks as well; it's not uncommon for them to turn Americans around who have a DUI conviction. For better or for worse, here in the U.S., a DUI conviction will not prevent you from entering or remaining in the U.S.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 11/25/2013 17:59:26 MST.

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
Re: Should have been more clear on 11/25/2013 18:12:04 MST Print View

>"a DUI conviction will not prevent you from entering or remaining in the U.S."

There's no barrier to leaving. The airline wants to see your passport/visa for an international flight because they don't want to have to bring you back if you're denied entry. But you can drive to two different countries from the USA and sail to a hundred more.

And there's no barrier to re-entering your own country, even if you are a criminal or have a past conviction. You might be arrested, but you are allowed in, regardless. That is an underpinning of international travel - a different country doesn't have to let you in, but your own country has to take you back. Rare exceptions arise (that guy in the Paris airport, some Gitmo detainees, etc, but hundreds of thousands (maybe millions) are deported back to their home countries, or denied entry and therefore end up back where they started. Otherwise border stations would be huge refugee camps.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Should have been more clear on 11/25/2013 18:36:39 MST Print View

"And there's no barrier to re-entering your own country"

There's certainly no barrier to re-entering the U.S. if you're a citizen. We have more than a few career criminals in our local community who have an outstanding order of deportation but their country won't take them back so they remain in limbo here in the U.S.

Just to clarify for anyone who reads this as "locking the border down" means different things to different people. What I'm speaking of is forcing people to enter the U.S. through a port of entry to the best extent possible. I'm not proposing that we prohibit people from entering.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 11/25/2013 18:37:54 MST.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
It's so simple.... on 11/25/2013 21:04:16 MST Print View

On second thought....I'm keeping my mouth shut.

Edited by xnomanx on 11/25/2013 21:05:47 MST.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: It's so simple.... on 11/25/2013 22:15:25 MST Print View

Craig,

Sorry I missed your response. It would have been interesting to hear your thoughts on the topic if you have an opposing viewpoint.

U.S. Immigration law in unbelievably complicated, second only to tax law, and I'm not trying to imply differently. I could fill pages supporting the four bullets from my OP but realize that I don't know it all and I enjoy hearing other opinions and viewpoints on the topic.

There's never going to be a perfect system but I think we can do better than one which encourages people to live in the shadows and not enjoy the privileges of full membership whether that be as a LPR or citizen, especially when often times they are being exploited. Either way, we've ignored this topic here in the U.S. for far too long.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 11/25/2013 22:20:35 MST.

Desert Dweller
(Drusilla)

Locale: Wild Wild West
Immigration on 11/25/2013 23:27:25 MST Print View

I'm tired and it's late, but I'll endure the arrows and slings...Ian I agree with you on most of your points, but the reality of the whole situation sucks. I've lived on the border for 31 years and I'm convinced that most Americans have no idea of the realities of the immigration problems pertaining to both sides of the border. We all would like the ideal situation to exist for the benefit of all, that would be a wonderful thing.

There are already penalties in place for hireling illegals, but they are not enforceable. Here they are trying to enforce them and have with some success, but when I travel north like say to Colorado, I see that every kitchen in every resort town has illegals in the back either cooking or doing menial jobs. Illegal immigration is supported by our businesses and that in my mind is enabling the whole mess to continue. As is the drug problem we have, until people stop taking imported drugs, the importation and trafficking will not stop. This is a huge problem here. I hike the sections of the AZ Trail that no one else will cause they re too scared, the cartels have taken over our borderlands through fear, and I refuse to let that stop me but I'm armed and I'm crazy so don't mess with me cause I'm not afraid to use it. :-) and I grew up with Marines so I do recon all the time. We have jaguar here too by the way, nine sightings on camera by June of 2013 alone.

So in my wandering a I have also encountered illegals and had some interesting conversations about their realities. They cannot get VISAs, period. These are the survivors of civil wars and government programs of destruction. The authorities are simply not giving them out. Many countries south of us are full of desperate, starving people who have no choice but to try to go north. Along the way they are robbed and raped, taken advantage of by the coyotes and just recently we found dead ones with bullet holes in their heads, apparently they are paying to be led across, but are being executed when within sight of border towns. It's a real heartbreaking mess.

As far as "sealing the border". There realistically is no way to do it until we develop the technology to create a barrier that truly does seal the border. The terrain is very very rough, crosses alluvial fans and is a logistical nightmare for the BP to navigate. Those guys do their best, and believe it or not, most of them are very sympathetic and kind to border crossers that are not drug related. They spend most of their time doing rescues. We have UAV's we have night optics, heat sensors and other technologies to help us but it is still not enough. It is physically impossible now to catch all the crossers, they can only apprehend so many. We live in a war zone with helicopters, UAV, balloons and BP all over the place.

Criminals who are released from jails in Mexico and South America are actually encouraged to go north to America. They are in fact given comic books that tell them exactly how to do it, (apparently many of them cannot read) we have been finding them for decades down here, along with copies of the Koran and literature from Africa and all over the world. Those of us that found this stuff cleaning up acres of trash on our lease land and ranches reported it 30 years ago but we were ridiculed and ignored. You think we can keep the bad guys out. Heck they are already here. They just walked in one night and caught a ride north on I-10.

So the issue is very complicated. The people in Washington are very far away and insulated from the issue. Even Janet Neopolitano betrayed us in her own state after she left, she says there is no immigration problem and the border is safe......she's an idiot.

Perhaps handling it in "pieces" is the only way they can do it, it's so volatile. When the subject comes up I usually just leave. People are idealists. Nothing wrong with that but reality rears it's ugly head down here on a regular basis and people die on both sides all of the time and it's repressed. The morgues in Tucson are so full of illegal bodies they had to get more freezers, and those people REALLY see the reality of the situation more than anyone. It's a very sad situation and I truly wish we could just give those who really want to work green cards so they can work, cause it's obvious we have a bunch of fat spoiled and indulged Americans now who refuse to do the menial labor that immigrants are willing to do to live.
The criminal element is a whole nuther ball of wax. Just in my very rural neighborhood we have had mothers escorting their children to bus stops in the early morning assaulted and robbed of their vehicles by illegal criminals who think nothing of breaking into homes, robbing elderly Americans and starting fires in our National Forests as diversions for drug runs that cost us millions of dollars a year. But you won't hear all of this north of here, the information is squelched. We are forsaken and told we are crazy when we want to defend and protect ourselves.

I appreciate that you are thinking of the issue and would like to hear some solutions to the problem, and so would I, but the fact remains that things will continue to go the way they are cause someone in our government wants them to.....if they wanted to fix the problem it would be
solved. And quick. Those of us that live here think that someone is being paid off to let things continue the way they are cause there is money in it. Money talks. Everything else falls by the wayside, including peoples lives.

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
Re: Re: It's so simple.... on 11/26/2013 00:25:28 MST Print View

Ian,

I'll dive into a little more. Rather than jump to policies, maybe discuss goals first. All of the following, I think are generally accepted as good goals:

- low crime
- human rights
- minimize deaths
- keep adjacent countries stable (e.g. Mexico, we don't have to worry about Canada).
- grow our economy
- educate the next generation
- care for our elderly

Most of which suggest a controlled system of immigration, more careful screening, a path to citizenship, and facilitating the education of immigrant's children.

Some criteria that aren't shared by all include:

- cheap labor
- rule of law
- exactly what is human rights

Broadly, D's go for expansive definitions of human rights to include people that may be lower-class, non-white, non-USA born, non-straight, non-able-bodied. Broadly, R's go more strongly for rule-of-law and cheap labor and support the rights of English-speaking, white males born of families in the USA for at least one but not more than 10 generations.

D's and R's will probably never agree on what human rights are. Even R's accept the best behaved African Americans as fully human. Even D's have trouble forgiving pedophiles for their thought crimes. But in between those extremes, there's not a lot of overlap, at least among the "base" of each party.

R's are more conflicted on this issue. Their rank&file are strongly in favor of the rule-of-law while their business supporters want cheap labor. And those are at odds. If everyone is here legally, there is not such an underclass.

Something the D's don't talk about (because it would piss off their hispanic voters) and the Rs don't either (because the current paradigm maintains low wages) is the strong preference for relatives of American citizens over people with higher-level education and job skills. A Mexican peasant from a rural village with minimal education can be admitted legally more quickly than a 5-year university graduate from Slovakia. There's a huge Mexican-American lobby, but not so from other second-world countries which we could actually "brain-drain" of their best and brightest. This is what other developed countries do. How do you provide lower-cost health care to your whole population? With MORE doctors. Where to find them? Many docs in India, Philippines, or South Africa would love to come here and that's how Britain and other countries staff their clinics. Why do we outsource so many jobs to Bangalore? Let's bring those high-skilled workers HERE, tax them, and benefit from the smart and motivated kids they will have.

There's a range of what's acceptable in immigration each year. Between 2 and 3 million. I'd like us to give high priority to the most skilled immigrants and not put people in the front of the line because they have relatives here. It won't happen, because the relatives that are already here are very squeaky wheels, but I think national policy should be about national benefits, not personal ones.

Justin Baker
(justin_baker) - F

Locale: west coast best coast
Re: Well we haven't covered immigration this year... on 11/26/2013 02:03:01 MST Print View

Just an anecdote here.
My father owns a landscaping business here. Many of his employees are obviously illegal. He does not pay them under the table, he fills out all of the proper forms when he employs them. Pays taxes and everything These forms include social security numbers. I think his employees are putting in random or fake social security numbers and the IRS is just ignoring it... I could be wrong though.
The only time he has had an issue is when one employee was using someone else social security number and he was forced by the IRS to fire that employee.
So yes, no enforcement on the part of the IRS.

Edited by justin_baker on 11/26/2013 02:03:59 MST.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Immigration on 11/26/2013 06:49:22 MST Print View

Desert Dweller,

I mentioned it in the OP but I agree with you, sealing the border is a great idea but unbelievably difficult if not impossible to implement.

The problem with that side of the discussion, as I mentioned above, is that "sealing the border" means different things to different people. I know when I say this that I mean that I want to stop people from illegally entering the country but I'm perfectly ok with people entering through a POE with a visa (or VWP if appropriate). Invariably someone will spin that position into one of xenophobia, racism, etc. (fortunately not here yet) which isn't true, at least not for me.

The reality is that even with technology, a fence, and increasing the size of US Border Patrol, people will still sneak in.

That's why I believe a solution has to be multi-tiered and that's where eVerify comes in. As Justin mentioned, there are X millions of illegal aliens who are working without a visa here in the U.S. As a kid back in the '80s, I accidently screwed up my SS# by one number when I was hired by a local pizzeria and my I9 was rejected by HR almost immediately.

We don't have to conduct these multimillion dollar dog-and-pony-show worksite enforcement operations and arrest thousands of aliens to make this work. My opinion is that if we 1) make the visas available to cover the labor need (temporary worker or otherwise) 2) make eVerify or other acceptable program mandatory, and 3) fine the employers, we'll be much better off than where we are now. Not perfect, just better.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 11/26/2013 15:36:05 MST.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: It's so simple.... on 11/26/2013 07:08:25 MST Print View

David,

I agree with you down the line:

- low crime
There are Zetas and other Cartel types in the U.S. that need to go. One of them lived about 40 minutes away from me and slaughtered 30 of his countrymen when he returned to Mexico.

- human rights
Absolutely. Speaks for itself.

- minimize deaths
I think immigration reform will have to include a means for illegal aliens to adjust status to LPR. My absolute largest concern with this is what this will do to our southern border. When I was TDY'd to Arizona back in 2003, there was a rumor in Mexico that W. was going to offer amnesty to illegal aliens and that you had to be in the U.S. to receive it. Obviously you can't swing a dead cat over your head in Arizona without meeting a Border Patrol Agent (or 50) but from speaking with them, US Border Patrol was quickly overwhelmed. People were dropping like flies in the desert and supposedly it was one of their worst years for alien fatalities on record. I didn't go into much detail about this in the OP but that's why I prefer for the visas to be issued outside of the U.S.

- keep adjacent countries stable (e.g. Mexico, we don't have to worry about Canada).
Couldn't agree with you more. Our future is tied with Mexico's.

- grow our economy
- educate the next generation
- care for our elderly
Yes. Yes. Yes.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 11/26/2013 07:19:39 MST.

Desert Dweller
(Drusilla)

Locale: Wild Wild West
Immigration on 11/26/2013 11:28:42 MST Print View

Yes, Ian and David I agree with you on all points, much good could be done if our leadership would in fact lead.
I am glad racism has not entered and hopefully will not in this conversation, my married family is descended from immigrants from Spain and Mexico, and in reality for those of us here, there is no border when it comes to friends and family, it's always been that way here. This is why I think we all instinctively don't like "borders", borders impose artificial divisions of families. And it does nothing to stop the flow of interaction and commerce, both good and bad. I only hope that my insights from the war zone give people reading this a more realistic view of what is happening here. Racism is for small minds. As is judging people by their birth place.

Every time the current President offers amnesty for migrants it's a death knell for men, women and children who only seek relief from inhumane conditions where they come from. We are seeing a lot of Indians now from South America as their local governments and the cartels practice quiet genocides for land take overs. They take the lands to grow drugs.

If indeed our fate is tied to Mexico, then we are in a LOT of trouble. But then again, my opinion only, I have always believed that the USA should take over Mexico and make it the 51st state and eradicate the cartels completely. Mexico is a beautiful place with many gorgeous places to relax and enjoy the ambiance, it would make a perfect "vacation" state. This would be a fantastic economical opportunity for the locals to make a living where they live. It USED to be that way, the people were happy, cottage industries thrived, the rent was cheap and the enjoyments many. Just 30 years ago we used to regularly travel south, and trade needed goods for artwork and their goods to take home and enjoy, the food was awesome, interacting with locals was really fun as was exploring the countrysides. Backpacking and hiking in Mexico was wonderful fun, there are so many different "zones" to explore. Now it's taking your life in your hands to just go to the beach!

Justin, my side of the family is northern european immigrant and as such appreciated the opportunities that a young America provided, and as such in turn also employed and imported legally, immigrants for work on our ranches and fruit farms in California and as household help later, from all over the world, giving these folks training and the skills and the opportunity to immigrate in the proper and legal manner. We also provided housing and transportation. It can still be done by those who care to do it, but of course it is both cheaper and less work to do this illegally. And the employers avoid the taxes of course. What they fail to see is that by doing illegal employment, they are in fact costing everyone more in the end and they themselves lose the benefits of doing things the legally correct and morally correct way. Morals it seems, in this country have gone the way of manners, not a lot of people have them.

Justin Baker
(justin_baker) - F

Locale: west coast best coast
Re: Immigration on 11/26/2013 12:17:49 MST Print View

I see what you are saying, but that's not true for all illegal immigrant employment. My father, just using as an example, pays above minimum wage, pays taxes on their wages, and they have filled out the proper forms for "legal" employment. My theory is that the IRS wants all the taxes they can get and doesn't enforce this.
Some businesses do pay under the table, avoid taxes, and pay cheap wages.
One guy I worked with is a legal resident and he would always say (jokingly) that he regretted not crossing the border illegally because it would have saved him so much hassle ;)
I also met a few immigrants who fled their country when they got tired of seeing dismembered bodies of drug cartel victims laying out in the streets.

Edited by justin_baker on 11/26/2013 12:19:23 MST.

Desert Dweller
(Drusilla)

Locale: Wild Wild West
Yep on 11/26/2013 13:01:25 MST Print View

Yes, it is very gruesome..the cartels have filled the mine shafts here too....yes I understand your family has done things the correct way. It's a shame that those who do, like your friend are paying so much and those who don't are getting away with it.
The generations past had a different attitude, now the new generations have lost that, feel they are entitled to free hand outs, it's the "haves" against the "have nots" as they say. My daughter when she lived here was in the supermarket checkout line, and was rudely bumped hard from behind by a Mexican in a hurry...she turned to her and said "You are a GUEST in this country, try acting like it!" It was hard for me not to fall down laughing.....
We used me to have a wonderful student exchange program here across the border, which my kids all did, they had to earn the privilege of visiting and staying with a Mexican family and they did the same. We really enjoyed those educational visits as the kids came from the interior not the border towns, now of course this has been discontinued, very sad. The cartels put an end to many good things here.
Ah well, beating a dead horse. I'm going hiking.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Immigration on 11/26/2013 18:13:24 MST Print View

"If indeed our fate is tied to Mexico, then we are in a LOT of trouble. But then again, my opinion only, I have always believed that the USA should take over Mexico and make it the 51st state and eradicate the cartels completely. Mexico is a beautiful place with many gorgeous places to relax and enjoy the ambiance, it would make a perfect "vacation" state. This would be a fantastic economical opportunity for the locals to make a living where they live. It USED to be that way, the people were happy, cottage industries thrived, the rent was cheap and the enjoyments many. Just 30 years ago we used to regularly travel south, and trade needed goods for artwork and their goods to take home and enjoy, the food was awesome, interacting with locals was really fun as was exploring the countrysides. Backpacking and hiking in Mexico was wonderful fun, there are so many different "zones" to explore. Now it's taking your life in your hands to just go to the beach!"


Wow.

Tell me I'm not the only one left absolutely and completely speechless by this statement.

I don't even know where to start with this...

And to top it off, the very same post finishes with a lament of the loss of morals and manners in this country.

Fascinating.

Edited by xnomanx on 11/26/2013 18:17:28 MST.

Desert Dweller
(Drusilla)

Locale: Wild Wild West
Immigration on 11/26/2013 21:44:24 MST Print View

Wow, finally some judgementalism......thanks. ;-)
So eradicating evil and freeing the people to make a decent living is bad. I'm not talking about wiping out a culture here..It's just my musing..never mind, means nothing to anyone anyways.

Justin Baker
(justin_baker) - F

Locale: west coast best coast
Re: Immigration on 11/26/2013 22:31:14 MST Print View

I don't see what you are wowed about Craig.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Immigration on 11/27/2013 06:45:47 MST Print View

"So eradicating evil and freeing the people to make a decent living is bad. I'm not talking about wiping out a culture here..It's just my musing..never mind, means nothing to anyone anyways."

With all due respect, taking over Mexico and making it OUR 51st state so we can use it as OUR vacation paradise isn't quite freeing the people to make a decent living - it's simply subjugating an entire people to a different master. That's not really a good thing.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Immigration on 11/27/2013 08:26:42 MST Print View

"That's not really a good thing."

Well let's think outside of the box here... you can't get chili rellenos in the US that are of the same caliber as what you can find in Mexico. I've proposed full scale invasions for less than this.

Joking people. Jokes.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 11/27/2013 08:34:05 MST.

Desert Dweller
(Drusilla)

Locale: Wild Wild West
Tongue in cheek on 11/27/2013 09:22:07 MST Print View

I was thinking more like tongue in cheek people....wow...if you have any better ideas just pipe up.
We can't support the people we have now.
Hey did anyone see the report on immigration on world news tonight? They of course focused on the issue of exemptions for the children of illegals cause they are "innocent". Is anyone here of the opinion that illegal is ILLEGAL regardless of age?
Flame on!

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
DACA on 11/27/2013 09:33:56 MST Print View

I've met people who can't speak Spanish and have no memory of Mexico who are illegal because they were smuggled in with their parents as babies. Conversely, I've met people who can't speak English, who've spent their whole lives in Mexico, but are US Citizens because they were born here and their parents moved or were deported back to Mexico when they were children.

I believe in the rule of law but I also believe in prosecutorial discretion. If you've ever had a police officer let you go with a warning when you factually violated a traffic or criminal law, then you've received the benefit of prosecutorial discretion. The reality is that our criminal justice and immigration system cannot and should not process every case encountered by law enforcement.

DACA allows for some of these children to adjust status to LPR if certain conditions have been met. With the exception of someone who has been on a non stop crime spree, I think they should be cut some slack.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 11/27/2013 09:38:23 MST.

Desert Dweller
(Drusilla)

Locale: Wild Wild West
Ok on 11/27/2013 09:49:13 MST Print View

Ok, so I'm playing devils advocate here.....
But don't you think doing this gets the foot in the door for more "exemptions". I call it bending the law to suit the times. I'm not saying its BAD, just pointing out that if we start making exceptions it might lead to other exceptions that aren't so beneficial.
I admired the pres when he was interrupted by an illegal oriental student and his supporters during a speech the other day, he pointed out that he cannot just change or over ride the law and that he knew they had to use the system that is already in place to make progress on the issue.
Personally, if I break the law, I don't expect any coddling, I expect to pay the price.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Ok on 11/27/2013 09:55:29 MST Print View

I think those can be handled on a case by case basis. There's something that seems inherently wrong about deporting someone who has spent all of their life in the U.S., has graduated from High School, etc, just because their parents smuggled them in when they were seven years old.

Just my opinion and I respect that you are entitled to yours.

BTW by no means am I the PC or grammar police but I believe "Asian" instead of "Oriental" is correct. I could be wrong.

spelt !
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Re: Tongue in cheek on 11/27/2013 09:58:12 MST Print View

If your tongue-in-cheek reads like an unironic colonialist fantasy, you're doing it wrong.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Tongue in cheek on 11/27/2013 10:44:30 MST Print View

"Personally, if I break the law, I don't expect any coddling, I expect to pay the price."

A couple questions have served me well through the years:

"How would I want this person to be treated if they were a family member?"

"What would my kids think if they saw me right now?"

None of this means that I don't enforce the law (or wish for it to be enforced) as much as I try to do it in an evenhanded way and as fairly as I can.

These questions not only help to guide my conduct but also help me form my opinions about proposed legislation. Obviously my vote and writing a letter to my legislators probably has minimal to no impact on how the laws will be written but an avalanche is the result of many individual snowflakes.

Not trying to preach. Thought this was on topic and just wanted to share some thoughts.

Edited out the self righteousy self promotion aspects of this response.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 11/27/2013 18:44:22 MST.

Desert Dweller
(Drusilla)

Locale: Wild Wild West
Alright on 11/27/2013 11:25:47 MST Print View

You are the exception, a very nice exception. My Dad is both a police officer and a Marine and he's of the same mind as you.
Spelt....Yes perhaps I have some irony going on, but so do a lot of us here. If you were constantly forsaken by your government, betrayed by your fellow citizens who happen to be politicians, and had to be on high alert 24/7 for fear of being another statistic of the border issue you might have a little irony too. Go ahead, call me names, cubbyhole me all you want, the facts remain. Immigration is a very hot, emotional issue. But very few of you live where we see the consequences every day. I'm not hard hearted, I'm a compassionate and very giving person. My job for the last 20 years was as the Director for a local charity organization. I'm also not one to pull punches, or put up with crap and things written can be taken wrong and often are. I can be blunt, if my bluntness and honesty offend then don't take it personally. But when I go hiking I'm one of those who finds the bodies, finds the hungry and starving, the injured and I have NEVER turned my back on them and I never will. It's all fine and good to talk online and give opinions and be judgemental, but really are you personally DOING SOMETHING to make an impact on the issue, or are you happy with just sitting on your chair in front of the computer passing judgments?
Sorry Ian, I've got a bit of a temper....done now..I'm going to go do eight miles and blow off some steam. Perhaps someone else will provide a more intelligent discourse.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Border on 11/27/2013 11:40:53 MST Print View

"and had to be on high alert 24/7 for fear of being another statistic of the border issue"

One thing I quickly learned from my TDY in Tucson (worked between Nogales and west desert) is that it's a very dangerous place and there are some very dangerous people coming across. People are getting robbed in their own homes, cars stolen, etc. All of that is very true. I was amazed to see the tons of garbage in the west desert. Discarded backpacks, water jugs, bikes, etc as far as the eye can see. It didn't take long for me to see what's going on down there and how those away from the border really have no idea. Don't know if the media doesn't care or feels compelled to filter it out of the news.

Again, difficult to have an adult conversation on this complicated topic without being called a racist or xenophobe; this usually shuts down the conversation and nothing ever gets better.

Off topic but Tucson is absolutely gorgeous. I live in the desert side of Washington and it's not uncommon for us to see temps in excess of 110* but the temperatures will always drop down to something reasonable at night, normally in the 70*s. You guys never get a break during the summer. I was amazed to see that it was still over 100* at 10pm. If you could figure out how to fix that, I'd move there in a second. I found that almost everyone I met in Tucson to be very down to earth and wonderful people.

Enjoy your hike.

Desert Dweller
(Drusilla)

Locale: Wild Wild West
Border run on 11/27/2013 12:13:45 MST Print View

We tried to solve the temperature issue by moving here, it's 5,500 feet here and 15 degrees cooler than Tucson.
Last week we had four drug busts (and 2 million dollar bust in Nogales) on one night a mile below the section of the AZ Trail I was hiking. I reconned it basically, zipped on through 15 miles in 10 hours of no man's land as fast as I could go. I actually made that damn trail 20 years ago for the AZTA and the FS, so I figured I could do it short and slick. I was going to make two days of it but my sources called while I was out there and told me of more movement south, and I found fresh track of a size 14 shoe so I turned on the afterburners and bailed at Patagonia. I'm calling it "adventure hiking".;-)Red Rock CreekSaddle mountain in the distancesome easy goingborder grasslands

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Drugs on 11/27/2013 12:20:06 MST Print View

Stop the war on drugs; it only drives it all underground. Take the criminal element out of it.
Don't like drugs? Don't take them. Oh, drugs include beer, wine, tranquilizers, stimulants etc.

Edited by Kat_P on 11/27/2013 12:21:03 MST.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Drugs on 11/27/2013 12:26:33 MST Print View

Washington State is one step ahead of you Kat.

.Dope drink

Call me crazy but drinking bong water doesn't sound all that appetizing.

spelt !
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Re: Alright on 11/27/2013 16:34:00 MST Print View

I never thought I would say this outside a hipster enclave but...ironic racism is still racism. You've mentioned before the people you've found and helped--I have no doubt you are a kind and generous person. That doesn't make what you said any less White Man's Burden-y.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Ha ha! on 11/27/2013 18:47:49 MST Print View

Just received this advertisement on BPL:

.dui

Desert Dweller
(Drusilla)

Locale: Wild Wild West
? on 11/27/2013 20:06:44 MST Print View

Racism
a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.


Your accusations make no sense. Your feelings are valid but not realistic.
Illegals come in all shapes and sizes and races. I am not a racist.
Illegal is illegal is illegal, period.
LOOK, accusing me of anything still does nothing for anyone, especially the people who suffer.
Here's a question for you. I have friends from England who immigrated. They went through the legal process, took the tests and the oath and did it in the lawful manner. Do you not think it is an insult to them and all others who have met the requirements of gaining citizenship to allow others who have not and whom in fact have broken the law to be given a privilege they have not earned?

Edited by Drusilla on 11/27/2013 20:09:55 MST.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Immigration status vs race on 11/27/2013 20:44:58 MST Print View

Just wanted to throw it out there that immigration status is not the same thing as race. The visa process is admittedly complicated to wade through but a Russian will not be immune from deportation proceedings just because he/she's white.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: ? on 11/27/2013 22:08:13 MST Print View

No, it's not an insult to someone from a first country that comes over the legal way.
Ours is the only border of a first and third world country; that should mean something.
"Illegals ".....the use of just an adjective is insulting.

Many of these people you are talking about, are up at dark, work in a field, know the soil, the weather, the crops. They are closer to this land that most other citizens. Their awful crime: crossing a border to work.
Please.....

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: ? on 11/27/2013 23:21:39 MST Print View

There are a few distinctions for the purpose of this conversation which need to be made.

The first is citizen vs alien. These are legal terms defined by our law, namely the INA.

Once we've determined that someone isn't a citizen and is indeed an alien, then further legal distinctions need to be made but the most basic is determining whether or not they were lawfully admitted. Simply calling them an "alien" will not make that distinction. Calling them an "illegal" may be somewhat colloquial but is accurate as they are present in the U.S. in violation of the law. It's difficult to have this discussion without making that distinction between those who have been lawfully admitted and those who haven't and while these categories may ruffle some feathers in polite society, they are absolutely necessary to determine if someone can legally receive a benefit or not. I think illegal alien is accurate but if that term is upsetting, for the sake of this conversation I think Present Without Admission (PWA) is fine too.

"Many of these people you are talking about, are up at dark, work in a field, know the soil, the weather, the crops."

Absolutely true. The very large majority of Americans have never worked this hard in their lives. The closest I've come to this was working in a produce factory as a kid and I can't think of another job, including digging fox holes, that comes close to how much this job kicked my arse.

Edit: I could have worded that better but I'm tired and heading to bed. Good night all and Happy Thanksgiving.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 11/27/2013 23:32:24 MST.

Desert Dweller
(Drusilla)

Locale: Wild Wild West
Believe me on 11/27/2013 23:39:10 MST Print View

I empathize, I grow all my own food and I am a rancher. And I have starved, I myself was homeless and weighed 120 pounds for four years and I am just an inch and a half under six foot. I know what suffering is, I know the despair of not knowing where the next meal will come from or where the next place my bed that night would be. I sold my paintings on street corners for food! I am not without feelings for those who suffer. But people here seem numb to the suffering of Americans who work hard to hang onto what they earned. Do you know how much suffering has gone on down here? Do you know about how many Americans have been murdered by illegals? Did you know that Bob Krentz was a good man and friend of mine? He was HELPING an illegal and was murdered. Did you know his wife was run over by an illegal without a driver's license while crossing the street after church just weeks after her husband was murdered? No you probably don't cause the media is told not to report these things. Yet we are supposed to bend over backwards for these illegals?

Think about it. If you worked as I and my husband have for over 30 years, paying for a ranch, working hard to raise a family, building fences, raising livestock, growing grass and crops where there was none before, digging wells, and then a TRESPASSER cuts your fences, sets your horses and goats and cows loose to be killed or lost in the night, tramples your fields and leaves your spigots open, deposits trash and human feces, breaks into your outbuildings, steals your food and clothing....scares your children...now how is THAT justified? Cause that is what has happened and is continuing to happen to us down here. Please, PLEASE??? How about please understand your fellow citizen instead of championing people who break the law!

What illegals do is against the law, entering a country without permission is breaking the law and illegal. What is so hard about that to understand?

The crime is that our country does not seek to help make their country a viable place to live. We go all over the world interfering with every tom dick and harry yet we do not a darn thing to help our neighbors lift themselves IN THIER OWN COUNTRY out of abject poverty, so they don't have to break the law by coming here without permission.
I feel like I'm arguing logic to the illogical. I'm done.

Edited by Drusilla on 11/27/2013 23:47:51 MST.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Believe me on 11/28/2013 07:22:49 MST Print View

I don't mean to dismiss your pain and frustration; I do think that you are not distinguishing violent criminals from people that are breaking the law to come work here and feed their families.
I don't think you or I have the statistics as far as what percentage of murders are committed by immigrants that have entered illegally, versus those committed by American citizens. I do know that this here is a violent society we are living in. Then the incarceration rate in the US is the highest in the world ( higher that North Korea, China and Iran by far) and a lot of the prison population exists because of non violent crimes, like drug use.
I have not lived by the border and I understand that living along the " ONLY border in the world between a first and third world country presents many challenges and you see that first hand. Where you put the blame is clear and that is one of the things we disagree on; I disagree with you on extending the blame of violent behavior to all those that cross the border illegally. Next I disagree with you calling these people by just an adjective, and I am not one to be ruled by political correctness either.
I came Into this country legally; I did not come from a third world country and because of that I cannot compare my experience with those that have little choice when it comes to feeding their families.
I speak Spanish and have both worked in the field along some Mexican workers ( along, not as a boss, supervisor etc); I have gotten to know some of them better than most Americans ever will. To some these people would all be criminals because they did break the law. To me, some of them were more upstanding and real and good hearted than most people I have met that are citizens. I make a distinction between what laws people are breaking.
We also seem to disagree about the fact that all laws need to be obeyed. I am very thankful to the brave people in this world that made it a point to break unjust laws and showed us sheepish masses the way. I think we all know laws that had to be broken first and then change came after.
I know that I am pretty extreme in my views on immigration; I believe we should let anyone that is not a criminal, not has a communicable disease have a permit to come work here. Most of them will want to go back to their own homeland whenever they can, and when they are old.
I also believe in decriminalizing drugs as a crucial element in dealing with violent crimes.

I may not live by the border but my beliefs are based on personal experience and a fair amount of reading about immigration as well as the politics and history of borders in general.

Yours truly,
Legal.

Edited by Kat_P on 11/28/2013 13:30:05 MST.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Believe me on 11/28/2013 10:08:39 MST Print View

"I am very thankful to the brave people in this world that made it a point to break unjust laws and showed us sheepish masses the way."

That's a interesting point. Every country I've traveled to including third world nations have their own immigration laws and set criteria of what must be met to immigrate to their country. Again, I'm not talking about non-immigrant visas (tourist), VWP, or refugees.

My position has been that there needs to be an increase and reasonable means to issue visas, especially when there is a labor shortage and we have created a system which relies on hiring people who are not legally here. An interesting example of this is a couple seasons ago, there was a freak occurrence where the cherry harvest overlapped the apple harvest. There were not enough workers to cover the harvest, farmers were looking to lose millions, and even though we were dealing with record unemployment, you couldn't find people willing to pick cherries. They ended up using prison labor to help with the harvest.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Well we haven't covered immigration this year... on 11/28/2013 18:25:56 MST Print View

Prosecute people that hire illegals. Illegal immigration is way down now because of economic rescession increasing unemployment.

Make "E-Verify" work - if someone uses fake SSN the computer should immediately notify and employee released.

Make drugs legal and regulated.

People that have worked or gone to school here for many years should be allowed to stay one way or the other. We shouldn't let a politically motivated hysterical over-reaction deport all of them, which would be impossible. Too much useful work is being done and there wouldn't be others to do the work. If we let people stay for years, it's unfair to deport them now.

If people can't work here are bring in drugs, it will be easy to make border secure.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Well we haven't covered immigration this year... on 11/29/2013 19:01:21 MST Print View

"Make drugs legal and regulated."

Uh......which ones?

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Border run on 11/29/2013 19:30:19 MST Print View

"Last week we had four drug busts (and 2 million dollar bust in Nogales) on one night a mile below the section of the AZ Trail I was hiking. I reconned it basically, zipped on through 15 miles in 10 hours of no man's land as fast as I could go. I actually made that damn trail 20 years ago for the AZTA and the FS, so I figured I could do it short and slick. I was going to make two days of it but my sources called while I was out there and told me of more movement south"

Sounds like No Country for Old Men.

"and I found fresh track of a size 14 shoe so I turned on the afterburners and bailed at Patagonia."

Good idea. Anton Chigur doesn't distinguish between genders. He'd probably just ask, "If the path you chose led you to this place, what good then is the path?", and pull the trigger.

Cormac pretty much has it nailed. Things are coming unglued, and the end is not in sight. I truly feel for those of you who live in one of the more unglued areas, but at the same time have this sick feeling that up here in the relatively calm PNW it's just a matter of time.... It's a human problem that can only be solved by humans. Unfortunately, we don't seem to be up to it. Where are those damned aliens when we really need them?

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Well we haven't covered immigration this year... on 11/29/2013 20:57:34 MST Print View

"Uh......which ones?"

Start with Marijuana

If that works then move to others like cocaine, heroin, and meth

Making them illegal just makes them worse. Probably possible to sell them legally but discourage use so it's less than now when they're illegal

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Well we haven't covered immigration this year... on 11/30/2013 09:10:26 MST Print View

legalize drugs....oh so libertarian and oh so impractical

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Well we haven't covered immigration this year... on 11/30/2013 09:19:11 MST Print View

"legalize drugs....oh so libertarian and oh so impractical"

We'll see how it goes with Marijuana

If legalizing heroin or whatever resulted in more use, then maybe it wouldn't be so good an idea, but it seems like the illegalization causes more problems than any drug effect

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Well we haven't covered immigration this year... on 11/30/2013 10:06:36 MST Print View

many hard drugs will never become legal because people cannot handle them. Simple as that. To think people are responsible enough to do so is rather ridiculous.

What does legalization of drugs and illegal immigration have in common? Nothing. Just arguments being made or certain members and their agendas being pushed. Nothing new really

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Well we haven't covered immigration this year... on 11/30/2013 10:18:56 MST Print View

Drug cartels and the violence associated with bringing drugs into this country gives all Mexicans that cross the border a bad rap. In this very thread drugs and violence were brought up as one of the bad things associated with "illegals".

There are countless articles and entire chapters in books dedicated to the connection. Hardly something new.

Edited by Kat_P on 11/30/2013 10:36:59 MST.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Well we haven't covered immigration this year... on 11/30/2013 10:39:52 MST Print View

"many hard drugs will never become legal because people cannot handle them. Simple as that."

I'm not saying hard drugs are good or that people should use them.

Just that we'de be better off it they were legal and sold in some controlled way. And you might be able to actually reduce usage.

Like, currently meth users break into cars and houses and steal stuff, and trade for drugs. If it was sold in controlled manner, they wouldn't accept stolen goods in trade for drugs.


"What does legalization of drugs and illegal immigration have in common?"

People bring illegal drugs across border. It's the same path as illegal immigration. The drug importers become powerful organizations doing all sorts of bad stuff including importing illegal immigrants.

If drugs were legal, there would be no cartels and the world would be better.

The damage from being illegal is worse than any damage from actually using the drugs, but if they were legal you might actually be able to reduce the damage from using the drugs.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Well we haven't covered immigration this year... on 11/30/2013 10:55:45 MST Print View

Here is a good read about the ethics of immigration. Article came out today.
I don't agree with everything the author writes, but reading articles like this can help broaden one's perspective.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/11/29/what-gives-us-a-right-to-deport-people-joseph-carens-on-the-ethics-of-immigration/

Peter S
(prse) - MLife

Locale: Denmark
Control on 11/30/2013 11:08:46 MST Print View

Let's make junk food illegal while er are at it. Control control CONTROL!!!

Let people have the option to fill themselves with whatever they want.

The problem lies elsewhere.

Education? Poverty? Immoral food lobby? So much else to spend money on...

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Well we haven't covered immigration this year... on 11/30/2013 12:05:47 MST Print View

Just read the article Katharina suggested. I guess my first reaction is that I accept that when I travel to another country, I'm at the mercy of their laws and that I'm a guest and should act as such. India put me through the wringer about my cell phone, if I was planning on leaving it, and wanted to know if I was bringing a sattelite phone with me. Made no sense to me and it didn't have to; its their country and their rules.

I've said all along that I feel part of immigration reform should be an opportunity for many people to adjust status to LPR. But I also think that there should be a screening process and something more than simply showing up at the border with suitcase in hand saying "hi I'm ready to move in."

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Well we haven't covered immigration this year... on 11/30/2013 13:37:02 MST Print View

"...and something more than simply showing up at the border with suitcase in hand saying "hi I'm ready to move in." "

That would never work - we'de be over-run with people - we don't have enough jobs,...

But due to screwed up policies for the last few decades, there are a bunch of people that have been here for many years. We've allowed it in that we've paid them. Many of them have children that know nothing about their native country.

If we deported them, there are a bunch of jobs that there's no one will do. We'de have crops rotting in the field.

Better to allow those people already here to stay and start a policy of not allowing employers to hire illegals.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Well we haven't covered immigration this year... on 11/30/2013 15:14:56 MST Print View

Completely agree with you Jerry,

Ed Biermann
(longstride) - F
Re: Well we haven't covered immigration this year... on 11/30/2013 15:37:10 MST Print View

My parents had to have a job and a sponsor to immigrate. With as effed up as the US is now I don't think we would be overrun. Not the land of gold paved roads and endless opportunity it looked to be before. Still better than some places. Slipping fast.


"legalize drugs....oh so libertarian and oh so impractical"

Seemed to work with alcohol and tobacco. You'll still have 3% of a population that will overindulge.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Well we haven't covered immigration this year... on 12/01/2013 19:56:20 MST Print View

Should've known that this is all part of a video game:

http://tinyurl.com/kcqd9co

Justin Baker
(justin_baker) - F

Locale: west coast best coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Well we haven't covered immigration this year... on 12/01/2013 20:46:45 MST Print View

"many hard drugs will never become legal because people cannot handle them. Simple as that. To think people are responsible enough to do so is rather ridiculous."

You are implying that a prohibition against illegal drugs will actually stop people from using... that has not been the case. It depends on what you mean by "handle them". If someone wants to kill themselves through drug addiction, that's their decision. If a drug has the potential to make someone extremely violent and dangerous, then I agree with you.


"What does legalization of drugs and illegal immigration have in common?"

Most drugs here in California are smuggled in by people who are crossing the border illegally. Also lots of marijuana being grown in public forests by illegal immigrants. Drugs and illegal immigration have a lot in common.