Forum Index » GEAR » "Faux-dini": 2.3 oz. Windshirt, <$15 - Initial Review and Sourcing


Display Avatars Sort By:
And E
(LunchANDYnner) - M

Locale: Pacific Northwest
all initial D/the fast and the furious up in here on 11/14/2013 13:59:23 MST Print View

Cuz this thread is pulling off some sick drifts.

I ordered a couple, as I've mentioned earlier. Whether they're counterfeit or not, is not for me to determine, nor is it my job to police ebay. If it is counterfeit, well, that sucks for jack wolfskin, but it played no part in my decision to buy it, as I had not ever heard of that company. I bought it because it was cheap and looked interesting to try out. If it is counterfeit, then I hope jack wolfskin will be able to do something about it to stop exploitation of their brand name.

I read the gear posts to read about gear, not about politics and ethics and whatnot. I thank Valerie for her post that highlighted a purchase she made and received, and it's regrettable that people took it upon themselves to turn this thread into their personal soapbox.

I ordered mine yesterday and it has already shipped, so +1 to the seller for being quick with that.

Edited by LunchANDYnner on 11/14/2013 14:03:16 MST.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Doug on 11/14/2013 14:16:05 MST Print View

Doug could sort this out pretty quickly.

Franco, you don't understand how your comment about the F word had nothing to do with my specific question to Roger?

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Question for Roger about editing on 11/14/2013 14:40:57 MST Print View

Hi Katharina

> I know that Roger has changed over the last few weeks
Um ... not that much?
Ryan and I discussed some recent problems and it seemed that my taking a slightly more active role could be beneficial. That's the only change I am aware of. If I have meanwhile gone senile or something, I don't want to know about it :-)

> How did the survey go and did Roger not jump in to some of our complaints about the
> proposed new rules
Ryan is running the survey. You need to ask him, not me. And he makes the rules as it is his web site.
Mind you, I don't think any of the rules are 'new'. They were summarised by someone as 'be nice'. I think that is a good summary.

> It would save you some time not to edit posts that contain no vulgarity are are not
> in the least bit offensive.
I have answered that question once already. At the time, before I deleted one sentence, it was rated 'offensive'.

Cheers

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Question for Roger about editing on 11/14/2013 14:46:48 MST Print View

"They were summarised by someone as 'be nice'. I think that is a good summary."

No reason for "the rules" to be more than that.

It just encourages people to argue about the rules and how they're being enforced.

Corbin McFarlane
(raven15) - MLife
Consider the Chinese Perspective on 11/14/2013 14:48:52 MST Print View

The average Chinese factory worker was/is a peasant farmer, using a hand-whittled stick with metal on the end to scratch the ground for peanuts to subsist on. Literally. The farmer raises pigs, the profit from the pigs goes to new clothes for the whole family for New Year. They raise the pigs with little or no veterinary knowledge. If ten pigs live and are not stolen they break even, if twelve pigs can be sold the family will be lucky to get new underwear for New Year, if an average of 30 pigs are sold everyone gets a whole new set of clothes per year!

Now you go to work for a factory while continuing to subsist by growing peanuts. You stitch sleeves on windshirts for $1.35/hr, working 2000 hours per year even while planting and harvesting peanuts. You think "Wow, $2700 per year guaranteed income for just sitting here stitching! Just think how many things I can give my family this New Year with $2700!!! I can buy two sets of clothes for my whole family! Heck, by this time next year I can even afford a solar water heater! Imagine the luxury of being able take a hot shower in my own home 8 months out of the year... This beats the heck out of raising sick pigs seven times before Wednesday!"

So it's safe to say that your $15 is going to a Chinese worker who is quite agreeable with the money from the job, and may even be considered a good cause (just because someone works for the money doesn't make it a bad cause). Given the permeating face-saving, there is no reason at all to believe that there is any more corruption or worse working conditions than the $150 windshirt factory. In fact, at $15 there is no margin for bad corruption or profiteering. In fact, I would say the $15 shirt is overwhelmingly the most ethical shirt because a very high percentage of the money is going to the workers. For that price it is likely either a fly-by-the-seat-of-the-pants cottage operation in the sticks with flexible hours and local workers, or an after-hours profit-the-little-guy run in a larger factory that just happened to be picked up by an entrepreneur with an eBay account. Compare that to a name-brand jacket retailing for $150, with a production value of $10, and $140 of profiteering and corruption in between.

I doubt Jackwolfskin is losing anything either. Probably the jacket is intended for local consumption. Every local who buys it never heard of or saw the company, and couldn't afford it either way. Everyone who knows of Jack Wolfskin immediately knows it's not genuine.

As stated above, by far the most ethical and beneficial choice for all (excluding some potential name brand profits) is to buy the $15 jacket, and donate $135 to the Philippines.

scree ride
(scree)
Wolfskin or Wolfsken? on 11/14/2013 14:53:25 MST Print View

Like it or not, kids in third world countries need work. Free enterprise isn't free. Somebody has to pay for it. They get the privilege of exposure. Lead, fiber dust, machinery... All that stuff we don't allow our own kids around. Not that all foreign factories are substandard , or that all American factories aren't. One should simply be as aware as they can possibly afford to, as to where their goods come from.
If you think they might be counterfeit, contact the seller, report it to Ebay. It really is our concern.
If I have the slightest inkling that something may be counterfeit or stolen, I don't buy it. I don't see much difference between the two.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Question for Roger about editing on 11/14/2013 14:53:33 MST Print View

Roger,
You answered my question about the survey.
As far as the other question the only related answer you have given was when you said it would take too long to write the explanation in a separate post.
Back to square one.
You deleted an entire post, based on an offensive word. Fine.
Craig wrote a post without anything offensive in it, just commenting about having had a post deleted. Instead of answering in your own post you took the liberty to edit Craig's perfectly legitimate post to add a possibly snarky explanation. Snarky is debatable here.
Right below that you had enough time to write a whole post about the ethics of the jacket etc.

Now. If you want this to just move on, the only honest answer at this point is that you did it because you could. Not because it was right, not because you did not have enough time.
That we can/ have to live with.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Question for Roger about editing on 11/14/2013 15:03:17 MST Print View

Please, if you are going to answer, address my question. I do not need another explanation of why the first post was deleted.

D S
(smoke) - F
Am I somehow more ethical?? on 11/14/2013 15:05:32 MST Print View

Am I somehow more ethical for paying a lot of $ for my Mountain Hardwear Ghost Whisperer Wind Shirt that says "Made in China" on it?? I doubt that it cost more to manufacture than the shirt being discussed and was probably produced under similar conditions (maybe even in the same factory).

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: Am I somehow more ethical?? on 11/14/2013 15:55:22 MST Print View

Maybe. That is why companies like MEC have gone to great lengths to insure that the whole process is good for the workers, the environment and the end consumer. They have the time and resources to get accurate information that a consumer can't chase on a practical level. I like the idea that I can check that off on any products I buy there.

There are a number of issues that should concern us all. The issues of working conditions and worker's rights are important. Environmental issues like air, water and soil contamination should be considered. Also, the safety for the end user has been an issue as well. From my memory, China has had problems with food contamination and heavy metal content in toys and recycled shopping bags.

Stepping aside from the obvious moral issues, much of the knockoff stuff is junk. I bought a fleece on eBay with the Mountain Hardwear logo prominently displayed and sold by a stateside vendor. It was the worst stuff I have ever seen. It even *smelled* bad! I had to ship it back at my own cost to get at least partial refund. I might have just thrown it away, or washed it and donated it, but I wanted the seller to feel some of the pain.

In the case of these windshirts, I would be suspect of the DWR and fabric quality in general, as well as the zippers and the thread used.

There are products that may have some real safety issues and this counterfeit to eBay system sidesteps a lot of the consumer safety process. Think about the problem with the Jetboil stoves doing meltdowns and then take that to stoves sold with no quality control/consumer safety process. There is no good reporting chain, so it would take a lot of incidents for the problem to be identified. Basically, you step into anarchy when you buy counterfeit goods.

It's not just China, of course. I'm afraid it is an ignorance-is-bliss challenge and it is global in nature. Think before you buy. Vote with your wallet.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Question for Roger about editing on 11/14/2013 16:07:28 MST Print View

Hi Katharina

> Craig wrote a post without anything offensive in it, just commenting about having
> had a post deleted.

How can I say this any more clearly? I am not talking about the first post.
Craig's second post contained unacceptable language.

The explanation I added to the second post referred to the contents of the second post.

I believe I made this point in every posting in this thread.

Cheers

Edited by rcaffin on 11/14/2013 16:10:18 MST.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: the bigger picture on 11/14/2013 16:45:07 MST Print View

"Maybe instead of talking about lowest base weight, we could compare how many (or few) slaves each of us employ inadvertently. I'm joking of course. Well, at least half-joking."

On first examination, this would seem to be a very good tool to inform our purchasing decisions, analagous to the environmental footprint. However, when viewed from ground level in, say, India or Nepal, things start to look a bit different, and the results sobering. Well intentioned efforts, of the kind that the road to hell is paved with, to crack down on practices that are abhorrent by Western standards may well result in a "slave" with at least a full belly and perhaps a couple of rupees to contribute to their family's survival being cast out on the street with only even less palatable options for staying alive. Anyone who has spent more than vacation time in that part of the world learns that Western values and logic have limited applicability. Better, IMO, for the righteous among us to focus their wrath and indignation on the numerous problems here at home threatening to rot our nation from within, including sweat shop labor and human trafficking.

Edited: As Roger C put it: Difficult.

Edited by ouzel on 11/14/2013 16:46:00 MST.

scree ride
(scree)
"slave" with at least a full belly and perhaps a couple of rupees to contribute to their family's survival on 11/14/2013 17:26:26 MST Print View

...and thus we excuse ourselves for our perpetuation. He is a rich man. He has many children. Many rupees.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: "slave" with at least a full belly and perhaps a couple of rupees to contribute to their family's survival on 11/14/2013 17:39:47 MST Print View

"...and thus we excuse ourselves for our perpetuation. He is a rich man. He has many children. Many rupees."

I'm probably a bit dense, but could you clarify this for me?

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Question for Roger about editing on 11/14/2013 17:40:46 MST Print View

Ok. My bad then for not getting this the first time around.
My apologies.



So Craig in his second post wrote that he used the F word. Just like I wrote it right now. That is now considered unacceptable on BPL.

Edited by Kat_P on 11/14/2013 18:01:15 MST.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Question for Roger about editing on 11/14/2013 18:02:13 MST Print View

Hi Kat

No worries.

Yes, we try to cater to minors and their parents as well. I'll ignore the suggestion that the internet-age kids have seen worse - probably quite true of course. But what else can I do?

Cheers

Edited by rcaffin on 11/14/2013 18:04:24 MST.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: the bigger picture on 11/14/2013 18:16:15 MST Print View

> Well intentioned efforts, of the kind that the road to hell is paved with,

Let me recount a (true) story.

Way back when transistors and integrated circuits were new and assembled by operators with a microscope and a micro-spot-welder, Motorola had a plant in Malaysia. They had rows and rows of girls doing the work every day (in clean room conditions). They were taken to task by some well-meaning Americans for the pitiful wages they were paying the girls (ladies). Their reply to this was illuminating.

Yes, they paid low wages - on an American scale.

But these girls had never had a job before. Any money their men earned was usually spent either on beer or on gold jewellry for the girl to wear - to enhance the man's status of course. Meanwhile, their children had little food, little clothing, no education, and no medical care. A self-perpetuating poverty loop.

So Motorola hired these girls and put their wages into a bank account in the girl's name only. The men did not even know what the girls were earning. The girls had this explained very carefully to them when they were hired. Yes, there were queues for the jobs.

With this money the girls (mothers) were able to feed and clothe their children, and get them schooling and medical attention. The poverty loop was broken.

Cheers

Valerie E
(Wildtowner) - M

Locale: Grand Canyon State
Re: Everything... on 11/14/2013 18:21:23 MST Print View

Sigh. I REALLY don't want to be all "Holden Caulfield" here, but...

Interesting that the fundamental principle of the Anglo-American justice system is being ignored by some people here -- who believe that the Chinese manufacturer is "guilty until proven innocent" of trademark infringement.

Now, to be honest, when I ordered the jacket I couldn't make out any logo in the listing photos (small laptop), so I was a bit surprised to see the Jack Wolfskin on the chest. I guess I'm a bit naïve, but my first thought was that this was either a factory over-run, or a factory run that was rejected by the contracting company (Jack Wolfskin). I guess I just don't think that the "Jack Wolfskin" brand is expensive or prestigious enough to merit counterfeiting (rampant for uber-luxury goods, such as Louis Vuitton, Chanel, etc.) Yeah, I know The North Face is counterfeited, but they are a world-wide "status" brand, regardless of widespread criticism of them on BPL. If I were a counterfeiter, I would make those same jackets and slap a Patagonia logo on them; then I could sell them on eBay for $40-$20 and make $38-$48 profit (aot selling them for $12 with a Wolfskin logo and making $10 profit). I'm think you're grossly underestimating the intelligence and business acumen of the Chinese clothing manufacturers, my friends! :~)

I support Roger 100% in his role, and I'm really dismayed at the bitter flavor of the criticism directed towards him. In fact, although I am still somewhat new to BPL, he seems to be quite laissez faire overall, and (bless him) often includes an element of humour in his postings. Mary Poppins was right: a spoonful of sugar DOES make the medicine go down!

I am heartened to see that some folks out there see the complexities involved in the global economy. We should all be thinking more about these issues and trying to put forward "best practices", while still understanding that our values may NOT be the only legitimate ones out there...The older I get (and I'm getting pretty old!) the more I realize that "black & white" thinking is simply irrelevant. If the issues were that simple, they'd've been solved a long time ago.

Respectfully, I propose that the ethics discussion be re-routed to "Chaff" where it really belongs, and I hope someone will set up a thread on this subject there.

And BTW, as a woman, if I HAD TO CHOOSE between a miserable factory job and working in the sex trade -- I'd take the factory EVERY time! The risks from lead/cloth dust seem laughable compared to the risks of violence/disease from men who think I'm less human than they are. Now THERE'S an issue that needs more action from the West!!!!!!

scree ride
(scree)
Re: Re: "slave" with at least a full belly and perhaps a couple of rupees to contribute to their family's survival on 11/14/2013 18:24:44 MST Print View

If I make my money off of cattle, I want a lot of cattle.
If you make money off of your children, you want a lot of children.

The system perpetuates itself while churning out an endless supply of land fill material.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: the bigger picture on 11/14/2013 18:34:52 MST Print View

.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 11/15/2013 07:27:39 MST.