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"Faux-dini": 2.3 oz. Windshirt, <$15 - Initial Review and Sourcing
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Rick M
(rmjapan) - F

Locale: London, UK
Re: just ordered a couple on 11/13/2013 16:22:17 MST Print View


Edited by rmjapan on 06/19/2015 17:38:58 MDT.

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: @Tarptent
Faux-dini": 2.3 oz. Windshirt, <$15 - Initial Review and Sourcing on 11/13/2013 16:24:10 MST Print View

That jacket has nothing to do with Patagonia and I am pretty sure that it is just a wind jacket with the Wolfskin name on it.
As far as I am aware, Jack Wolfskin does not sell anything like that but in any case it would be about 10x or more than that.
BTW, all Jack Wolfskin jackets have the logo on the other side.
Also if you compare the logo you will find that it does not match :

Edited by Franco on 11/13/2013 16:28:24 MST.

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: Conscience? on 11/13/2013 16:40:51 MST Print View

"Sometimes a wind shirt is just a wind shirt :) I am glad some folks believe they are saving the world one purchase (or non-purchase) at a time. Go get 'em."

Tadpole, whatever you do, you make ripples in the pond. I have visions of abused workers, corruption and shoddy goods. When you put money in, you encourage more. Think.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
Re: Re: morality on 11/13/2013 16:47:37 MST Print View

I'm not familiar with MEC. Could you explain their "standards" in comparison to Patagonias?

ill let you read all about it ... it will take up a lot of posts just to put everything on BPL ...

code of conduct ...

factory list ...

2012 accountability report manufacturing section ...

environmental initiatives

MEC 1% for the planet

MEC charitable donation and land acquisitions ... note that MEC is a major financial supporter of acquiring land for local parks to preserve areas from real estate development ... in squamish they helped decades ago with serious financing to preserve the smoke bluffs, today likely the busiest climbing area in canaada ... they also recently helped acquire the upper malamute to preserve the climbing routes for future generations

Jim Rutter, manager of the FMCBC, discovered that the Smoke Bluffs were to be bought by a property developer and closed to the public for good. Unfortunately, the FMCBC didn’t have the money to purchase the bluffs. After some discussion, there was a pause as Dad tallied up his life savings then said, “Tell them I’ll offer $70,000.” And to their surprise the offer was accepted. Suddenly The Smoke Bluffs belonged to Mr. John Randall and were safe.

But Mr. and Mrs. Randall weren’t in a financial position to purchase crags willy-nilly. My Dad’s actions gave the FMCBC time to act, and it agreed to purchase the bluffs from Dad. With Jim Rutter’s efforts in securing a loan from The Mountain Equipment Co-op, the Smoke Bluffs became the property of the Federation, who quickly put fundraising schemes into motion to permanently secure the area.

The climbing community has been working for years to protect and secure access to this important area which has, until now, been privately owned. New life was breathed into the campaign when the property was sold about three years ago for a fraction of its value (recently estimated to be $1.66 million). That’s when MEC became actively involved by making a $15,000 grant to The Land Conservancy of BC (TLC) to support the research and groundwork required to land a deal.

and a recent story on overseas partners ...

for patagucci you can read about it here ...

i would say MEC follows the "same" standards in terms of sustainable and ethical practices as any other "outdoor" company you can name out there

and their gear is pretty good, and substantially cheaper ...

i indicated this years ago that patagucci "premium" for "ethics" and "sustainable" practices can be had just as easily at MEC for a better value .. it wasnt well received back then

hopefully the made in CANADA T2/T3 layers that many BPLers did a group buy on can start to change some minds


Don Morris
(hikermor) - F
Clothing and Ethics on 11/13/2013 16:47:57 MST Print View

I have become concerned about the conditions in which my threads are produced ever since this summer's horror show in Bangladesh. Interestingly enough, Patagonia has very detailed information on their suppliers; REI has a general statement that they support ethical standards and decent working conditions (presumably that would include factories that do not collapse spontaneously). Noting that I had several items of theirs labeled from Bangladesh, I wrote to Duluth Trading and inquired about their feelings on the issue. I got a pro forma response "Your concerns have been conveyed to the Board of Directors." Too bad - their stuff is pretty good, but I won't be buying it anymore. I will be happy to spend more at Pat and similar enterprises.

Anyone have more info about ethical retailers?

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
Re: Re: Re: morality on 11/13/2013 16:55:42 MST Print View

just to add ... some companies sweep it all under a rug ...

heres what you want to see ... from MEC

At the end of 2012, 13% of our audited factories in the past 18 months (10 of 79) had unacceptable violations. This number has decreased from 17% that were found at the end of 2011.

Our 2012 audit year noted four factories with new unacceptable violations. Two of these factories resolved their violations and were confirmed complete through a verification audit. Two other factories that had unacceptable violations in 2011 have also remediated these violations. MEC chose to phase out of two factories with unresolved violations. At the end of 2012, ten factories were left with outstanding unacceptable violations.

Seven of these ten factories restricted MEC auditor access. In two of the seven factories, we have started collaboration initiatives with other brands to share social compliance audits and remediation plans. Once we have completed the shared audits and see needed improvements, we will take these two factories off the unacceptable list. We are in communication with two factories who only allowed a partial audit. We are working with them to come to an agreement for the audit scope. At the same time, we are seeking other sourcing options, should either of the factories not wish to comply with the STEP program. As for the other three facilities restricting the STEP audit, we understand the risks associated, as we have been able to visit the facilities. We are working with the Product Manager to find new suppliers that will participate fully in our STEP program.

The graph above provides an overall look into our total supply chain. The apparel industry has been exposed to social compliance for over a decade. This is one of the reasons why many of the apparel factories in our supply chain meet our minimum standards and have fewer high-priority items.

and now back to el cheapo windshirts ....


Edited by bearbreeder on 11/13/2013 17:03:31 MST.

Valerie E
(Wildtowner) - M

Locale: Grand Canyon State
A Thunderhead of Judgment/Do the Best You Can on 11/13/2013 17:18:38 MST Print View

Wow. I really wasn't intending to make a political statement here. I just thought I'd highlight a product I found, foreign-made though it is.

Yes, Patagucci and MEC and many other companies have corporate citizenship programs that are good public relations exercises for them. Maybe I'm being too cynical; maybe I'm not, but I think we should all question just how much impact these programs have...and whether one company's contributions are more "important" than another's.

Thanks for all the input, but please consider that many of you standing in judgment may, many times a day, make equally impolitic consumption decisions.

Do you know where every bite of your food comes from (and if you grow your own, what about soil, seeds, "organic" purchased fertilizer, irrigation systems, etc.)? How many electronics do you own, and what do you know about the mines where the manufacturers got the metals for those "toys"? What kind of cars/trucks do you own? What about all your clothes, furniture, toiletries, etc.? Do you live off the grid, or do you buy power/water from the local utility, and what are their environmental practices? I could go on, but I think I've more than made my point.

Personally, I try to do the best I can to be a responsible person. I didn't drive a car until I was 38 years old (I walked, biked, or took public transit), I only have one car (a gas-sipping Honda Civic), my house has low ceilings (HVAC is in cubic inches!), I often walk to the local farmer's market to buy food, I buy MANY things used (re-use!!!) and try to give away/sell things I don't want (keep stuff out of the trash and create less need for new items to be manufactured), etc. I do not pretend that I am an "eco-warrier" or try to tell others how to live (well, I try not to, anyway!). ;~)

I'm sure that many of the people on this website also TRY THEIR BEST to live in a responsible manner, given that we are "first world" folks, with first world wants/expectations.

Please, before you start slinging vitriol my way for simply being honest about peoples' "actual" environmentalism, do the following: look at your own lifestyle with a more critical eye, to be sure that you aren't "people in glass houses throwing stones". I find it very hard to believe that the folks who were upset by this jacket have never bought Chinese-manufactured goods of any kind.

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: A Thunderhead of Judgment/Do the Best You Can on 11/13/2013 17:23:50 MST Print View

I thought it was a rather mature disscussion. Some stating of opinions and insights. No name calling or the like. Please don't be distressed!

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F
Re: Re: A Thunderhead of Judgment/Do the Best You Can on 11/13/2013 17:34:37 MST Print View

invariably almost any BPL discussion on cheap gear from china becomes bogged down in "ethics" ... as someone always says "well im not putting kids into slavery making my goods, so ill buy patacucci (its almost ALWAYS patagucci that gets bought up)"

i can dig out threads from years pasts of the exact same thing if we so desire =P

other than the "morality" of focusing on a few pieces of outdoor gear vs. all the other stuff you consumer ... as mentioned above

people often forget that the first world nations of japan, korea, taiwan, hong kong, and even the US/UK were industrialized this way ... and in the asian countries lifted out of poverty

china has brought hundreds of millions of into relative prosperity, not without problems of course ... thanks to all us american/canadian/european consumers ... its quite fair to say that when you buy stuff from those countries, the population there benefits somewhat

remember that there are tons of "abuses" even in the first world .. if you look at the MEC report ... theres abuses in canadian factories, and notably taiwan ones (which is a first world nation with generally decent standards) ...

all of this of course goes out the window once someone brings up "ethics" on BPL

what i find amazing personally is that its always patagucci thats brought up ... what about the rest of us who own dead birds, MH, montbell, etc ...


Ron D
(dillonr) - MLife

Locale: Colorado
Re: A Thunderhead of Judgment/Do the Best You Can on 11/13/2013 17:42:35 MST Print View

If you want to buy the windshirt from China, just buy it. If you feel guilty then take the price difference between it and a Houdini and donate it to an appropriate charity. The Philippines could certainly use the help right now and the good you would be doing is much greater than buying from Patagonia or MEC.

Justin Baker
(justin_baker) - F

Locale: Santa Rosa, CA
Gear on 11/13/2013 17:55:15 MST Print View

This entire discussion seems so ridiculous coming from a site where many of it's members have entire rooms dedicated to gear.

Edited by justin_baker on 11/13/2013 17:56:55 MST.

Delmar O'Donnell

Locale: Between Jacinto & Gorgonio
Now I want one. EYOE! on 11/13/2013 18:00:24 MST Print View

All the grandstanding and ethical one-upmanship in this thread is having the effect of making me want to buy one, even though I don't need one.

Valerie, please know we DO appreciate your finding & reporting on this item.

EYOE - Employ Your Own Ethics (an hommage to the HYOH ethos). I feel no compunction to follow anyone else's ethical system but my own, and don't give a hundredth of a hoot if anyone thinks I'm unethical from buying a Chinese windshirt.

I think people who try to control my behavior by imposing their value systems are unethical!

Edited by Bolster on 11/13/2013 18:10:21 MST.

Delmar O'Donnell

Locale: Between Jacinto & Gorgonio
No. on 11/13/2013 18:11:17 MST Print View

I wish! Sadly, my ethical system does NOT allow me to do whatever I want.

In Plain American Non-vulgar English, it would be:

"I have my own internal guidance system, I don't need yours."

My ethical system is likely different from other peoples' systems.

Embrace the diversity.

Edited by Bolster on 11/13/2013 18:32:35 MST.

Valerie E
(Wildtowner) - M

Locale: Grand Canyon State
RE: Re: A Thunderhead of Judgment/Do the Best You Can on 11/13/2013 18:24:25 MST Print View

A few things...

Ron D -- Great idea - LOVE IT! I'm texting a donation for the Philippines right now!

Eric C -- About 10 years ago, in a discussion of the (then) burgeoning Chinese manufacturing giant, my husband predicted that within a few years, the workers would want a better lifestyle, and would demand higher wages, and their society would change, and then we'd have to find a new source of cheap manufacturing. What's amazing is that this is coming to pass, even under "communism"! (I know, name only...)

Justin B -- said it best:
>>This entire discussion seems so ridiculous coming from a site where many of it's members have entire rooms dedicated to gear.

And I thought I had pretty good logic...if brevity is the soul of wit, YOU are one witty dude! :~)

Delmar -- good for you; you know who you are and are willing to "own" your choices.

I didn't open this discussion, but if there's one thing I hope this post will do (besides letting people know about a cheapie windshirt, LOL), it is to get folks to look into their souls (and their own behavior) a little bit deeper before galloping off on their high horse. Said with empathy, kind intentions, and for the betterment of all.

zorobabel frankenstein
(zorobabel) - F

Locale: SoCal
nice find on 11/13/2013 18:27:41 MST Print View

Thank you Valerie for sharing your find and reviewing it!

About sizing, could you please measure your medium jacket and post the measurements here? (chest, sleeves, center back length...).

I usually wear a mens size small, though about half the time I feel it is too big (a Land's End small would be kinda large but short; TNF, Marmot are usually large); do you think I'd fit in the medium?

P.S. Guys, please stop the thread crapping.

Edited by zorobabel on 11/13/2013 18:28:56 MST.

Rusty Beaver
(rustyb) - F

Locale: Rocky Mountains
Re: Re: Re: morality on 11/13/2013 18:59:47 MST Print View

Thanks, Eric. From a cursory look, MEC looks like a decent company.

RE Patagonia, I was/am aware of what they have done and are doing. "Let My People Go Surfing" goes into it far deeper than what they could put on their website.

Have you read that book?

To the original poster, Valerie: Sorry your thread got derailed the way it did. It's par for the course here though. On the bright side, think about the good that may come from it. The derailment of threads like this might just have a positive influence on someone.

Peace to all.

Edited by rustyb on 11/13/2013 20:25:51 MST.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: RE: Re: A Thunderhead of Judgment/Do the Best You Can on 11/13/2013 19:01:34 MST Print View

"but if there's one thing I hope this post will do (besides letting people know about a cheapie windshirt, LOL), it is to get folks to look into their souls"

Awwww shucks Valerie, you had me until this. My soul is a dark, scary place. Ain't gonna go looking there....

BTW, nice find!

Edited by idester on 11/13/2013 19:02:14 MST.

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: nice find on 11/13/2013 19:03:36 MST Print View

So promoting the purchase of counterfeit products should go without mention? Counterfeiting is illegal and theft of the logo's reputation.

Consider this, if the product had a label from one of our cottage manufacturers, there would be a hew and cry heard all the way to Canton. Well, the people who work for Jack Wolfskin need their jobs too.

I think it is fine to point such things out, but it should be done with politeness and respect.

IMHO, when you knowingly buy counterfeit merchandise, you contribute to worker abuse and corruption and it is a form of theft.

I don't think the OP knew or really considered that when starting this thread and deserves some slack. I think Franco's points on the details do identify this item as counterfeit and I encourage you all to refrain from buying them.

What gets me is that the manufacturer could simply post them for what they are, pointing out the attributes that attracted us all in the first place and leave the stolen logo off. I think they would sell just fine.

My (respectful) $0.02

Rusty Beaver
(rustyb) - F

Locale: Rocky Mountains
Re: Re: nice find on 11/13/2013 19:07:58 MST Print View

"I think it is fine to point such things out, but it should be done with politeness and respect. IMHO, when you knowingly buy counterfeit merchandise, you contribute to worker abuse and corruption and it is a form of theft. I don't think the OP knew or really considered that when starting this thread and deserves some slack."

Good words, Dale. Thanks.

just Justin Whitson
Re: Re: Re: nice find on 11/13/2013 19:43:02 MST Print View

Edited because i am human, and not a paradigm of ethics, and i understand that most do try with what they know, can afford, etc.

It was not my intention to cause a ruckus or to sit in judgement of others, or to point fingers. As i said, i'm not a paradigm of ethics, but i do think and care about these issues, and really wish that i, personally do could more, or that were more people who cared more.

I do admit i got a little defensive and irked when i read Paul A.'s 2nd reply which seemed, directed, albeit subtly with indirect innuendo, towards my direction in a rather more personal and judgmental way.

In my first post, i was speaking extremely generally and impersonally, but i should not have let myself start getting defensive and personal later on. It doesn't matter what others say or do to me, only what i do or say to others. I will try to live that more in the future, and try to stick harder to being impersonal and general with this kind of stuff.


p.s., i want to thank Eric Chan for all the info on MEC. They sound like a company i would like to and should support in the future.

Edited by ArcturusBear on 11/13/2013 22:29:03 MST.