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"Faux-dini": 2.3 oz. Windshirt, <$15 - Initial Review and Sourcing
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Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Re: Re: The almighty BPL moral code on 11/16/2013 15:10:55 MST Print View

"I would feel better about that were our enforcement a bit less selective, to the point of being cynical. And I am totally against it if it involves sacrificing our young men and women, or inflicts even greater suffering on the local population than they are already undergoing."

We agree here. Notable that in the examples I gave above - economics was our forcing function, not our service members. And generally much more successful, though you might point out, and I'd also agree with, our sanctions are often very poorly conceived and hurt the 'rank and file' without effecting the rich and powerful in the target country....

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: The International Fashion Industry & A Just Society on 11/16/2013 15:25:48 MST Print View

The trademark owner has already stated that this is a fake. If you want to ignore the law because it's inconvenient and perform mental gymnastics to justify the purchase then you do so at your own peril.

Knowingly importing counterfeit goods from China never sounds like a good idea.

Edit:

"One of the ONLY things that separates a polity from fascism is DUE PROCESS."

"Due process" relates to criminal proceedings. If a prosecutor a) finds that you are in violation of the law, b) finds your case worthy of prosecuting, and c) can secure an indictment... you will certainly have your day in court to argue your case.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 11/16/2013 15:46:50 MST.

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Faux-dini": 2.3 oz. Windshirt, <$15 - Initial Review and Sourcing on 11/16/2013 15:27:48 MST Print View

Valerie,
at best it can only be a failed pre-production run, in other words (at best....) a line that Jack Wolfskin has rejected.
Why ?
Because again the label is on the wrong side and very simply JW does not sell that particular item.
Same as finding an $80 Apple iPhone 7 with interchangeable battery.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: The almighty BPL moral code on 11/16/2013 15:43:04 MST Print View

Tom,

From reading your postings since I joined last year, I agree with you more often than not. I don't disagree with anything you've written here. However, I can't justify breaking the law by purchasing counterfeit goods just because America's foreign policy flaws are many and massive.

I never heard of Jack Wolfskin before this thread. Just because they are a multi million dollar business does not make them exempt from internationally accepted protection.

The funny thing is that this ebay company adds no value to this wind shirt that I can perceive by adding the logo. It seems far simpler to just remove the logo or create their own TM and sell this product through legitimate means. Lord knows that there's a market for this shirt.

Edit to add: If they sold this shirt legally with the logo "cheap piece of crap" on the chest for <$20, I'd buy one right now.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 11/16/2013 15:49:06 MST.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The almighty BPL moral code on 11/16/2013 15:51:35 MST Print View

"economics was our forcing function, not our service members. And generally much more successful"

Yes, particularly in South Africa, where the major impact came when US corporations like IBM were forced to close up shop there. The Afrikaners saw the handwriting on the wall and folded before there was much of an impact at the grass roots level.

"though you might point out, and I'd also agree with, our sanctions are often very poorly conceived and hurt the 'rank and file' without effecting the rich and powerful in the target country...."

Indeed. That was the case in Iraq, where close to one million Iraqis, half of them children, perished as a result of the sanctions regime engineered by the US in the mid 90's. A very similar situation prevails in Gaza since the people there made the wrong choice when they elected Hamas to govern them and we immediately imposed sanctions. And now Iran. Cuba has fared a bit better, but in all these cases, it is the common people who have borne the brunt of the suffering.

Justin Baker
(justin_baker) - F

Locale: Santa Rosa, CA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The almighty BPL moral code on 11/16/2013 15:53:54 MST Print View

If I buy the shirt and rip off the logo when I get it, then is it ok?
I've never heard of jack wolfskin and I'm certainly not going to buy their reportedly expensive products, so I see no moral issue here (legal issues aside).

It would be different if I found a jack wolfskin product that I liked and intentionally searched the internet for a cheaper knock off of that item.

Edited by justin_baker on 11/16/2013 15:59:08 MST.

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Fake Jack Wofskin jacket on 11/16/2013 15:57:45 MST Print View

I'll give you another clue...
If you look at the top of the page in that listing you will see a photo named "all".
That is the one that shows all the colours in one photo.
look carefully and you will see that they have a different brand (can't read it) and on the other side .
all

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Fake Jack Wolfskin jacket on 11/16/2013 16:08:19 MST Print View

Let me propose a scenario. Same ebay company starts making cuben fiber shelters. They add the Zpacks logo and market the shelter as a hexamid but for hundreds less that the real company can sell the shelter for. (replace with MLD, TT, or other cottage industry you respect). No gray area in the law; it's a completely illegal product but (in this scenario) there is zero chance of you being served with a warrant.

Would you buy this shelter?

Edited by IDBLOOM on 11/16/2013 16:10:36 MST.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The almighty BPL moral code on 11/16/2013 16:10:37 MST Print View

"From reading your postings since I joined last year, I agree with you more often than not. I don't disagree with anything you've written here. However, I can't justify breaking the law by purchasing counterfeit goods just because America's foreign policy flaws are many and massive."

Ian,

My bad if you thought I was using a critique of US foreign policy to justify buying a counterfeit windshirt. Nothing could be further from the truth. Personally, I have never knowingly purchased anything that is counterfeit, nor would I. I'm pretty sure my record on that score, knowingly or not, is clean. It's unfortunate the thread drifted, and I got involved in a subject that would have been better addressed in Chaff. I think that is where Katharina tried to move it, but half of the conversation is still being conducted here. Not sure what to do about that....

As for my postings, I have a hunch that, while we are bound to disagree on various specifics, we both want what is best for this country. My hope is that thru discussions like these we can start to arrive at a grass roots consensus on what needs to be done to get our country back on course. If has to start somewhere; if not in forums like BPL, then where? Otherwise, I wouldn't waste my time presenting my own ideas for dissection/debate. To me, this is where the rubber meets the road in an open, democratic society.

Looking forward to continuing the dialogue(s).

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: The International Fashion Industry & A Just Society on 11/16/2013 18:04:42 MST Print View

Hi Valerie

> 1. A few words on how the Fashion Industry works:
Ah, you know too much. :-)
You are letting Harsh Reality (the Real World) intrude into an armchair rant about why the rest of the world should conform to some people's slightly misled ideas about how the American system works.
In other words, I agree.

> Maybe this accounts for the VERY strange response that Ian B got from Jack Wolfskin
> ("It's an [sic] fake.", go to our website and buy our stuff.)
Yup, exactly. Boilerplate response, as I said before. I imagine Jack Wolfskin have zero interest in pursuing the matter - and probably anticipated it happening before they placed the contract! As, most likely, in years past as well.

There's a JW shop in Oberstdorf in Germany (I think JW is a German company), and towards the end of the season everything 'left over' from the peak selling season (ie all the seasonal fashion stuff) goes at half price. They still make a good profit from that.

> Please, think about it. Am I really the only one here who thinks very foundation of
> the Anglo-American legal system is vitally important?
Yup - for instance the NSA does not.

Cheers

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: The International Fashion Industry & A Just Society on 11/16/2013 18:07:58 MST Print View

Hi Ian

> "Due process" relates to criminal proceedings. If a prosecutor a) finds that you are
> in violation of the law, b) finds your case worthy of prosecuting, and c) can secure
> an indictment... you will certainly have your day in court to argue your case.

Er, well, better add 'd) it is politically expedient to pursue the matter' to that list. The fraction of reported offenses which are NEVER pursued is not small.

Cheers

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Fake Jack Wofskin jacket on 11/16/2013 18:15:04 MST Print View

Franco wrote:

> If you look at the top of the page in that listing you will see a photo named "all".
> That is the one that shows all the colours in one photo.
> look carefully and you will see that they have a different brand (can't read it)
> and on the other side .

Hum ... I wonder ... perhaps the company did a production run of these shirts first, then added a number of known logos to the WRONG sides, then offered them as samples to the various Western companies? When (some of) the Western companies declined to place a contract (or even if they did), all the samples were put on eBay?

That fits kinda close to how they work. It also means the logo is, from the vendor's point of view, completely irrelevant - which may be why they simply did not mention the logos in the ad.

Cheers

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: The International Fashion Industry & A Just Society on 11/16/2013 18:16:48 MST Print View

"Am I really the only one here who thinks very foundation of the Anglo-American legal system is vitally important?"



You are almost alone, I am afraid. Due process is almost a thing of the past but maybe we could reintroduce the idea; I am all for that.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: The International Fashion Industry & A Just Society on 11/16/2013 18:21:30 MST Print View

Keep in mind that Kat is one of the cornerstones of the International Fashion Industry. She has a whole team of lawyers ready to litigate any improper use of Mountaingoat Hats.

--B.G.--

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: The International Fashion Industry & A Just Society on 11/16/2013 18:33:47 MST Print View

Roger,

I've testified to hundreds of cases in grand jury and and investigated many more than that but thanks for explaining to me how it works. Kind of like me telling you how to put a stove together.

Edit none of them were IPR cases as that's not my field of work.

Edit edit: Well I went full d-bag with this response but I'll leave it up seeing that you people piss me off.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 11/16/2013 18:44:11 MST.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: The International Fashion Industry & A Just Society on 11/16/2013 18:49:55 MST Print View

"You are almost alone, I am afraid. Due process is almost a thing of the past but maybe we could reintroduce the idea; I am all for that."

I'm clearly looking at this from a legal perspective and don't understand where you're coming from. I ask without hostility, what does this mean to you and could you provide an example?

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: The International Fashion Industry & A Just Society on 11/16/2013 18:53:51 MST Print View

Well, if you are ok with me bringing up drones, then yes, I do have an example.
There have been at least 4 American citizens, one famous case the others not so much, that have been killed by drones without due process.



http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-02-08/obama-s-drone-attack-on-your-due-process.html


http://reason.com/blog/2013/05/24/aclu-calls-bullshit-on-obamas-drone-spee


http://www.salon.com/2011/09/30/awlaki_6/


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/barackobama/9913615/Barack-Obama-has-authority-to-use-drone-strikes-to-kill-Americans-on-US-soil.html

Edited by Kat_P on 11/16/2013 19:21:08 MST.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: The International Fashion Industry & A Just Society on 11/16/2013 19:11:06 MST Print View

Well that's a whole other thread altogether!

I can't speak for Valerie but from reading her response, it seemed she's implying that the individual citizen should apply due process before judging the ebay vendor. To me, this isn't a case of being judgmental towards the vendor but one of using good judgment.

The trademark owner has stated the wind shirt is a counterfeit. There is no other information available to us at this time to dispute this. If the vendor or another source is willing to provide conclusive evidence that this isn't a fake, I'll order a couple for my kids tomorrow.

If this was a legal proceeding, we'd have probable cause to arrest. But it isn't.

Edit to add: "If this was a legal proceeding, we'd have probable cause to arrest. But it isn't." wasn't directed at the OP but at the vendor. My apologies.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 11/20/2013 14:39:25 MST.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The International Fashion Industry & A Just Society on 11/16/2013 19:15:20 MST Print View

"If this was a legal proceeding, we'd have probable cause to arrest. But it isn't."

To arrest already... or to investigate more and then maybe arrest?

Edited by Kat_P on 11/16/2013 19:16:30 MST.

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
Spending time on 11/16/2013 21:18:22 MST Print View

Nice sleuthing, Franco. The Patagonia connection seems to come from the 'dini' reference in the thread title to the Houdini, one of their windshirts. FWIW: http://www.jackwolfskin2013online.com/jack-wolfskin-women-windproof-jackets_c6

Took a look at this thread because wondered how a post about a windshirt could possibly go on at such length.

Made me think of a guest Bill Moyers had on his PBS show recently. She was a psychologist who specializes in how the internet and portable computers have totally changed how we spend our time, and how that affects us. She had a very pleasant way of presenting her views and findings, but reflection on what she said was for me positively scary. Will we all end up like those pod people in the Matrix movie sequel, physically and socially inert, but happily living out our existence in pods while communicating on computers?