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"Faux-dini": 2.3 oz. Windshirt, <$15 - Initial Review and Sourcing
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Jon Leibowitz
(jleeb) - F - MLife

Locale: 4Corners
Re: Re: Re: It's a fake on 11/15/2013 16:15:01 MST Print View

Good point about the Taliban. Moral relativism only goes so far. But when you go down that road, you have to ask yourself....are there some morals which are universal? One could probably soundly argue that not murdering people and not raping/beating women for trying to go to school are universally accepted morals....on the other hand it's pretty darn hard to argue that intellectual property rights is a universal moral :)

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: It's a fake on 11/15/2013 16:22:45 MST Print View

"The Taliban has cultural differences too, but I'm not buying that either!"

Nor are they trying to sell you their culture. What they ARE selling us is a one way ticket out of their country, so they can get back to living according to their own values, whatever you may think of them. They're not trying to sell us windshirts, either, so I don't know why they got brought into the conversation. ;0)

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: It's a fake on 11/15/2013 16:40:16 MST Print View

Copyright infringement isn't comparable to murder, BUT, these factories are bound up in corrupted officials, abused workers, pollution, theft of materials and patterns, etc. You really are buying into a whole quagmire of issues and you don't know how far it goes. As with illegal drug sales, you can toss out all the issues with the drugs themselves, and you are still left with the criminal enterprise that profits by it.

I do know that the practice is illegal in the US and punishable. Gauging by the penalties listed below, the citizens of this country take the matter seriously. Whether you feel that copyright infringement is immoral, it is without a doubt considered a criminal act. If you knowingly buy such merchandise, you are taking part of the crime, just like downloading pirated music.

"Copyright infringement is the act of exercising, without permission or legal authority, one or more of the exclusive rights granted to the copyright owner under section 106 of the Copyright Act (Title 17 of the United States Code). These rights include the right to reproduce or distribute a copyrighted work. In the file-sharing context, downloading or uploading substantial parts of a copyrighted work without authority constitutes an infringement.

Penalties for copyright infringement include civil and criminal penalties. In general, anyone found liable for civil copyright infringement may be ordered to pay either actual damages or "statutory" damages affixed at not less than $750 and not more than $30,000 per work infringed. For "willful" infringement, a court may award up to $150,000 per work infringed. A court can, in its discretion, also assess costs and attorneys' fees. For details, see Title 17, United States Code, Sections 504, 505.

Willful copyright infringement can also result in criminal penalties, including imprisonment of up to five years and fines of up to $250,000 per offense."

scree ride
(scree)
Re: Re: There is a difference on 11/15/2013 17:21:33 MST Print View

Mislabeled or sleazy business practices?

michael levi
(M.L) - F

Locale: W-Never Eat Soggy (W)affles
re on 11/15/2013 17:28:00 MST Print View

this shirt is light and cheap, i have a montbell tachyon already though.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Re: It's a fake on 11/15/2013 18:01:15 MST Print View

> One could probably soundly argue that not murdering people and not raping/beating
> women for trying to go to school are universally accepted morals

But one would be certainly wrong. Not universally, for sure (been off-planet recently?), and not even globally.

Murder over an 'affair of honour' (however you may define that) is still quite 'legal' in many countries, especially the Middle East. As for women trying to go to school - definitely punishable by execution in some countries.

For that matter, duelling was accepted in America at least into the 1840s. "In 1838 former governor of South Carolina John Lyde Wilson published The Code of Honor; or Rules for the Government of Principals and Seconds in Dueling." Note that this acknowledged that a fatal shot was possible and acceptable, and happened in perhaps 20% of duels. Andrew Jackson boasted of fighting at least 14 duels.

What are morals anyhow? They are just the accepted norms of behaviour within a culture. There are no absolutes anywhere.

Cheers

Edited by rcaffin on 11/15/2013 18:04:54 MST.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: It's a fake on 11/15/2013 18:20:05 MST Print View

"What are morals anyhow? They are just the accepted norms of behaviour within a culture. There are no absolutes anywhere."

Maybe 150 years from now, having wars like we do today will seem as immoral as slavery 150 years ago seems today

Not to mention dumping CO2 into the atmosphere with abandon

(seeing as this thread as already gone far astray from the original post : )

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
The almighty BPL moral code on 11/15/2013 19:31:25 MST Print View

The one thing that I've really come to love about BPL is that this is a community of thinkers. Deep, deep, deep... thinkers. What are morals really? Do we really need words like right and wrong?

So you want to throw a little acid on a girl to prevent her from going to school. Who am I with my dang western eyes to pass judgment on you? Young lady, we'll just call those scars badges of cultural diversity.

The extinction of the western black rhino... yesterday I thought that this was a bad thing but now I'm not so sure. I now find some comfort knowing that while this beast is no more, poachers.... excuse me (too harsh).... benevolent traditional Chinese medicine hunters were able provide bazillions of Chinese with rhino horn because who am I to judge them?

Laws? Sheesh! What in the world have I been thinking?!? It's just a little federal law.. barely a felony. If you weren't looking really close, you'd almost miss it. More of a guideline really.. except technically a crime (air quotes).

So counterfeit goods are sometimes used to fund terror and criminal organizations... do those terms really mean anything anymore? You know what they say... what you call a lunatic blowing up buses in the middle east based on your judgmental code is an misunderstood explosion artist to others (you judgmental fool you!)

So what if the reputation of a business is tarnished when a backpack spontaneously falls apart at a trailhead, medicine contains a sub therapeutic amount of product, kid gets lead poisoning from her Thomas the Train, garment catches fire at a party… the critical thing here is that you saved money and weren’t judgmental!

Why, you can probably buy your moral code at Walmart on sale!

So congratulations BPLers! Stay nice and warm in your counterfeit wind shirt while casting stones at the real villains like dastardly cottage industry folks offering gear in exchange for TGO votes.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: It's a fake on 11/15/2013 20:09:44 MST Print View

"But one would be certainly wrong. Not universally, for sure (been off-planet recently?), and not even globally.

+1

"What are morals anyhow? They are just the accepted norms of behaviour within a culture. There are no absolutes anywhere."

A timeless truth that we just can't seem to wrap our heads around, no matter how much blood and treasure is spent. The values of long surviving cultures have generally selected for survival of the culture in a particular historical context, as incomprehensible and abhorrent as they may seem to us. Lord knows we have enough problems here at home that reflect on our morality to keep us busy for generations. Why not start here and save our smug sense of moral superiority for that far off time when our own house is tidied up? We're not going to force them to adopt our morals in any case. That much should be clear by now.

"One could probably soundly argue that not murdering people and not raping/beating
women for trying to go to school are universally accepted morals"

One could also argue that we are partially responsible for the mayhem by trying to cram Western style education down the throats of a people to whom it is an alien concept, while simultaneously engaged in a war with them.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: The almighty BPL moral code on 11/15/2013 20:28:38 MST Print View

"The one thing that I've really come to love about BPL is that this is a community of thinkers. Deep, deep, deep... thinkers. What are morals really? Do we really need words like right and wrong?"

I feel your pain, Ian. I'd probably feel it even deeper if you could see fit to ponder how far we've gone astray here at home and direct some of your righteous rage inward, where it might do some good. The world is a very big, rough and tumble place full of all sorts of people who don't agree with each other on how to behave, i.e. the meaning of right and wrong. We've had quite a go at sorting the world out over the past 50 or so years and, as near as I can tell, precious little to show for our prodigious expenditure of blood and treasure. Meanwhile, if you can believe government statistics, something like 10% of our kids go to bed hungry every night
while our politicians take a meat ax to food stamps while preserving agricultural subsidies for the wealthy, our infrastructure crumbles, our freedoms are slowly disappearing, drug use is rampant, our prisons inhumane and overflowing(4th Amendment stuff according to the Supreme Court in a recent California case), lordy I could go on, but I think this is enough to make my point. Don't get me wrong, I find all sorts of behavior in various parts to of the world repugnant by my own code, and I've seen some pretty nasty characters/behavior up close, but I also realize that in the long run we can do very little to change it at any acceptable cost; and that as long as our own house is a mess, our moral pronouncements ring hollow in the ears of many who do not share them. Better to deal with problems we have a chance of solving, IMO.

Edited to clean up.

Edited by ouzel on 11/15/2013 20:35:29 MST.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: You're calling what? on 11/16/2013 08:35:14 MST Print View

DOD "The "sad, dark" world is not as broken as you think it is, nor breathlessly waiting for you to fix it."

You're right, its waiting for us, the collective to fix it, and its going to take a majority of people united.

DOD "But if you disagree, then spend your energies on actually doing something, rather than wasting your talents writing rebuttals on an internet forum."

Voting with ones wallet seems to be one of the more effective ways to affect change I think and because of this thread I've resolved to be more consistently conscious and concerned with this process. Talking openly about it on a public forum that many read is also a start, though I agree that it probably should have been brought up in another section of the forum.

DOD "Neither you nor I are changing anybody's mind about anything; we're just irritating people at this point."

You're probably right there. But as far as people being irritated, I say GOOD, this should not be an easy, comfortable and feel good issue or conversation. A man of peace that I greatly admire once said, " I come not to bring peace, but a sword". Sometimes you need to stir up the shadow side of people and society, which invariably leads to conflict of some sort, to affect change.

Perhaps you and others would join me in a think tank of how to affect positive change besides voting with ones wallet and open discussion, because I do feel a bit stuck on ideas to implement.

Edited by ArcturusBear on 11/16/2013 08:37:34 MST.

Ed Biermann
(longstride) - F
Re: "Faux-dini": 2.3 oz. Windshirt, <$15 - Initial Review and Sourcing on 11/16/2013 08:55:51 MST Print View

Will there be Cliff Notes available for this thread on the points relevant to the wind shirt's performance and fit?

Changing the global conscience on a backpacking website seems like a folly. You efforts could be utilized elsewhere.

Mahatma Gandhi — 'Be the change that you wish to see in the world.'

The Golden Rule - “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them,

If everyone would follow these, we would all be better off. Who can't remember and follow two such simple rules? Though I admit that the Golden Rule is somewhat subjective. Some people are into some weird stuff.

Still waiting for a wind shirt with hand pockets. No chest pocket. In tall sizes too.

Link .
(annapurna) - MLife
Re: Re: "Faux-dini": 2.3 oz. Windshirt, <$15 - Initial Review and Sourcing on 11/16/2013 09:07:47 MST Print View

Ed, Then you wanted an Eddie Bauer Sirocco ,it has two hand pockets no chest pockets and Eddie Bauer sells tall sizes and were on sale last year for $25 but I don't know when they will be back.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: "Faux-dini": 2.3 oz. Windshirt, <$15 - Initial Review and Sourcing on 11/16/2013 09:09:20 MST Print View

Faux-dini, terrorism and Gandhi are heading over to Chaff.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: "Faux-dini": 2.3 oz. Windshirt, <$15 - Initial Review and Sourcing on 11/16/2013 09:14:02 MST Print View

I thought that it was decided to put chaff in forums that people see when you click "recent posts" or "recent threads"? : )

Interesting how there are occasional posts related to the original post intermingled with chaff posts

Ed Biermann
(longstride) - F
Re: "Faux-dini": 2.3 oz. Windshirt, <$15 - Initial Review and Sourcing on 11/16/2013 09:14:03 MST Print View

Thanks Link. Anything available without a hood? Or at least a hood that stores away? In muted colors? It can't be just me.

Rusty Beaver
(rustyb) - F

Locale: Rocky Mountains
Re: Re: You're calling what? on 11/16/2013 09:28:30 MST Print View

"Perhaps you and others would join me in a think tank of how to affect positive change besides voting with ones wallet and open discussion, because I do feel a bit stuck on ideas to implement".

Hey Justin,

I've appreciated some of your posts here...as well as some from other posters too.

Re "how to affect positive change besides voting with ones wallet"? There's a super simple way...but it's terribly unpopular: Stop consuming...or more accurately put, stop consuming like a wildfire. I hear/read all the justifications of why people need this or that (I do it myself) when in reality, they simply want...to fulfill a part of their ego. It feels good to get something new. It makes us happy for a short time and then we need to do it again, and again and again. Eckhart Tolle explains this really well in "A New Earth".

I satisfy those "needs" by shopping at thrift stores and modifying stuff if it doesn't suit/fit me. I repair stuff rather than getting rid of it. I make stuff. I do all this not only to satisfy my ego but because I thoroughly enjoy working with my hands....and I do it because of my personal convictions, not because I'm silly enough to believe that I alone am going to make a big difference. What kind of person would I be if I just talked about it on Internet forums? Not a genuine one. What kind of person would I be if I turned a blind eye to the worlds issues?

I cross this philosophy over into all aspects of my life (I can explain if anyone wants)...but I'm careful not to use the terms "green", "sustainable", etc. Those are trends. I prefer to use the term "practical" instead...because that's what this is: being practical. It's not a popularity contest, a rah rah football game, or a fashion show.

Sat morning soapbox'n.....

Edited by rustyb on 11/16/2013 11:47:57 MST.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: The almighty BPL moral code on 11/16/2013 14:08:27 MST Print View

Yeah, we've done some pretty nasty things abroad - not so much to enforce our moral code on others but really to ensure wealth for our 1 percenters. But, as with everything, nothing is black and white. Enforcing our 'western moral code' on others has also helped to end apartheid, is helping to combat human trafficking and the child sex trade, and helping to combat some other repugnant practices in other countries. And, I'll admit, I'm quite alright with that, regardless of whether the 'locals' are quite fine with their own moral code.

I also agree, completely, with the need to turn our holier-than-thou eyes inward - because there's an awful lot of repugnant practices still going on in this country. I just don't agree that we have to fix everything here before we pay any attention to other things elsewhere.

Valerie E
(Wildtowner) - M

Locale: Grand Canyon State
The International Fashion Industry & A Just Society on 11/16/2013 14:22:08 MST Print View

1. A few words on how the Fashion Industry works:

How “leftovers” [of factory runs] should be disposed of varies by contracts, according to Susan Scafidi, a law professor at the Fashion Law Institute of Fordham University. “Some trademark holders insist that they be destroyed, some allow them to be sold within a specific geographic area, others, less concerned with exclusivity and scarcity, will allow the products to be sold,” Scafidi said. ...Obviously, it can be a touchy subject for retailers. Forever 21, for example, declined to comment on the practice, and J.Crew didn't provide an immediate comment.

Apart from contract issues, selling overruns with labels or displaying the brands is more serious offense—it can be seen as a violation of a company's trademark. As a result, VENDORS ARE ASKED NOT TO MENTION THE BRANDS, AND TO EITHER CUT THE LABELS OFF OR CONCEAL THEM IN PICTURES. [Emphasis added] By minimizing the involvement with the brand, the matter is made a lot easier as fashion designs are rarely protected, at least in China and the US, according to Scafidi.

Note that, in the eBay listing, the brand name is not mentioned, nor is the logo very clear in the majority of photos. (Using a small laptop, I didn't even see it when I ordered the garment.)

2. Legal vs. Grey Areas

[From "The Economic Impact of Counterfeiting", by the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development, 1998, http://www.oecd.org/sti/ind/2090589.pdf ]

A number of activities, such as parallel trading and factory over-runs, are treated as counterfeiting by trademark owners but not by enforcement agencies.

“Parallel trading” refers to situations where products are legitimately bought in one territory and diverted for sale to another territory without the consent of the right holder in the receiving territory. [aka "grey marketing]

A related problem for trademark owners is the unauthorised production by legitimate suppliers. In some sectors, such as toys and spare parts, it has become the practice for suppliers to produce “over-runs” – extra quantities of products which they do not account for – and sell them on the black market. THE TRADEMARK OWNER AGAIN CONSIDERS THE GOODS TO BE COUNTERFEITS BUT FINDS IT DIFFICULT TO TAKE ACTION. COURTS AND ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES TREAT OVER-RUNS AS A BREACH OF CONTRACT RATHER THAN AS A TRADEMARK INFRINGEMENT. [Emphasis added]

Maybe this accounts for the VERY strange response that Ian B got from Jack Wolfskin ("It's an [sic] fake.", go to our website and buy our stuff.) Very odd, indeed, as a reaction to being ostensibly told that someone is committing an international crime, where you're the victim!

Edited to add: Those of you unfamiliar with the clothing industry probably don't know that for each "collection" (think NF's 2013 Fall line), a large number of sample styles are created. Many of these pieces will NOT end up in the collection; some will end up in the brand's outlet stores; others will just be put aside. I bought a "legitimate" MH women's sample shirt that was never released in the long-sleeved version, but dozens of samples were made of that style before it got cut from their summer line.

3. How can BPLers be missing the very foundation of a just society?????

What disturbs me the most about SO many of the comments to this thread is the COMPLETE distain for "due process" under the law -- you have tried and convicted the manufacturer and seller, with ONE TINY SHRED of circumstantial evidence, no knowledge of industry practices, and no opportunity for him to defend himself! Wow, that's scary! Especially from folks who've written pages and pages of fine sentiments about "making a difference", "morality", etc. One of the ONLY things that separates a polity from fascism is DUE PROCESS. Please, think about it. Am I really the only one here who thinks very foundation of the Anglo-American legal system is vitally important?

Edited by Wildtowner on 11/16/2013 14:28:51 MST.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: The almighty BPL moral code on 11/16/2013 15:05:13 MST Print View

" we've done some pretty nasty things abroad - not so much to enforce our moral code on others but really to ensure wealth for our 1 percenters. But, as with everything, nothing is black and white."

+1 That, too. As you say, nothing is black and white, excepting perhaps Zebras and Pandas. ;0)

"Enforcing our 'western moral code' on others has also helped to end apartheid, is helping to combat human trafficking and the child sex trade, and helping to combat some other repugnant practices in other countries. And, I'll admit, I'm quite alright with that, regardless of whether the 'locals' are quite fine with their own moral code."

I would feel better about that were our enforcement a bit less selective, to the point of being cynical. And I am totally against it if it involves sacrificing our young men and women, or inflicts even greater suffering on the local population than they are already undergoing. Iraq is a poster child for my line of reasoning. As are The West Bank and Gaza, speaking of apartheid. Closer to home, to the degree that it is presented to our own people as the reason for undertaking coercive measures abroad, I think it distracts us from dealing with our mess.

Edited by ouzel on 11/16/2013 15:07:33 MST.