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"Faux-dini": 2.3 oz. Windshirt, <$15 - Initial Review and Sourcing
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Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
Re: Re: Price has gone up on 11/14/2013 22:38:38 MST Print View

Holy crap,

You guys have too much time on your hands.

Must be winter time...

Delmar O'Donnell

Locale: Between Jacinto & Gorgonio
Talking to me? on 11/14/2013 22:45:17 MST Print View

Justin...? You had written a long post directed at me, and now it's gone?

OK, I'll remove my reply, and spare the rest of the forum who must be dead tired of this thread. But I haven't changed my mind on value-laden moral sermons being inappropriate and misplaced on what is essentially a recreational skill forum. (Yes, I realize the irony of this post, so am keeping it short.) At the same time, Justin, please keep up with your very informative on-topic BPL posts, I enjoy them. You're a wealth of knowledge.

Can you imagine the puzzlement at Cnfocus? They've got to be saying: "What in the world is going on? Why are we getting a huge spike in sales on this one jacket? Quick, raise the price before these Gweilos deplete our stock! "

Shucks, Valerie, you should be paid a dividend for your post! Nothing sells like controversy.

Edited by Bolster on 11/14/2013 23:16:28 MST.

just Justin Whitson
Re: Talking to me? on 11/14/2013 23:13:48 MST Print View

To Delmar,

It might be hard to believe from certain vantage points, but i DO make a definite effort to try to keep my spirituality and philosophical side toned down here--considering it's my primary focus in life, and is much more important to me than gear, etc..i think i do an "ok" job at doing that. It occasionally slips out, but rarely in any long winded, overly involved, preachy posts, and most of that which has the former attributes has been in chaff, and really i don't even post that much in chaff. Seriously, if you read ALL my posts, you would see that i primarily focus on the parameters of the forums i'm engaged in. My initial post which apparently initiated or facilitated this firestorm of controversy, etc, was an extremely brief and extremely generalized and impersonal one.

Mainly, i'm upset by the amount of suffering in this world. It has it's place as a teacher, but it would be nice if things could improve more. It's one thing to intellectually be bothered by it (as i'm sure many are to some extent), but it's a totally other thing to acutely FEEL it at times (i've sort of been like the main character in the movie "Powder" in that sense for most of my life, and often treated similarly by my peers since kindergarten, as if i was an alien that did not belong here)

I believe the best way to improve things, is by being a positive example, and that is something i try to focus on doing here, there, and everywhere. However, it's rather hard to do on a forum without some mentioning of ones deeper ideals, wishes, experiences etc.

In person, i don't talk much at all, and certainly rarely talk much about my beliefs, deeper experiences, etc, (unless people ask questions). I try to let my vibe and example do the talking primarily. Again, it's rather hard to communicate in that way on a forum, and unlike MANY people, i only see preaching as "bad" or distasteful, when it totally deafens most others to one's words, but the old saying is also very true, often it's only those with ears to hear and eyes to see who will be the ones who listen and get it anyways.

So, stuck between a rock and a hard place, as per usual.

Sometimes i am tempted to the extremely apathetic and thinking there is no point at all in trying to help anything because the huge majority of people just do not seem to want to change this world for the better because it would involve such brutal self honesty, such self change, such dedication, such self sacrifice, that it's downright scary for most to even attempt to think about, let alone deeply ponder or try to enact. The price of responsibility is a heavy one, and the more aware you become, the heavier that weight.

I think i need a BPL abstinence or vacation for awhile.

Delmar O'Donnell

Locale: Between Jacinto & Gorgonio
Appreciate. on 11/14/2013 23:17:58 MST Print View

For the record, Justin, I carefully read and appreciate your backpacking posts. You've taught me a lot about backpacking. My thanks for that.

just Justin Whitson
Re: Appreciate. on 11/14/2013 23:23:59 MST Print View

As i appreciate your voice, many voices here, and the general BPL community and vibe. For such a diverse and prolific crowd, there certainly is a much greater harmony here than meets the eye (despite the occasional squabbling). Generally speaking, it's an unusually helpful, open minded, and sharing community.

I've learned a lot and continue to learn from many folks here about backpacking, gear, etc, and some about life in general.

And i will always be grateful and appreciative

Ian B.

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Talking to me? on 11/14/2013 23:25:42 MST Print View


Edited by IDBLOOM on 11/15/2013 07:22:50 MST.

scree ride
recreational slavery on 11/15/2013 05:00:16 MST Print View

I took a bus tour myself, then I stayed at a Holiday Inn. I know all about American misconceptions. We should never, ever let the plights of others get in the way of our entertainment. Especially when we don't even have to make up our own excuses. We're not exploiting kids, we're feeding the hungry.

My apologies to Valerie. I don't mean to imply that this is a bad product. As with everything, the reviews will tell. At some point it probably was or still is licensed under Jack Wolfskin. My comments would apply to my Korean made stove as well as my American made pack. The resulting discussion has absolutely nothing to do with you or your original post. It was really nice of you to share and I hope you do again.

Ian B.

Locale: PNW
It's a fake on 11/15/2013 07:09:12 MST Print View

I sent the ebay link to Jack Wolfskin to see if this was a legitimate product or not. Here is their response:

Dear Ian,

Many thanks for your mail and the interest in our company.

This jacket is an fake. Our logo is never on the right chest.

You could visit one of our British dealers on either or, if you wish to purchase anything. They offer an extended JACK WOLFSKIN range and also do shipping overseas. You will be able to find the exact costs for postage / shipping on their homepage.

We hope that this information is of any help to you. Do not hesitate to contact us in case of further questions.

Best regards

Ines Wiegand

Ausrüstung für Draussen GmbH & Co. KGaA

Jack Wolfskin Kreisel 1· D-65510 Idstein/Ts., Germany ·
Phone: +49 6126 954 0· Fax: +49 6126 954 158·

Edited by IDBLOOM on 11/15/2013 07:10:06 MST.

(smoke) - F
I really wish - on 11/15/2013 07:16:44 MST Print View

I really wish you guys would take your "let's save the world from itself" discussion somewhere else.

I came here to find out about the performance and sizing of this windshirt, not all this extraneous stuff.

Ian B.

Locale: PNW
Intellectual Property Rights on 11/15/2013 07:17:56 MST Print View

To report:

Contact the IPR Center
Report IP Theft:
Mail: National IPR Coordination Center
2451 Crystal Drive, STOP 5105
Arlington, VA 20598-5105
Telephone: 1-866-IPR-2060

Edited by IDBLOOM on 11/15/2013 07:18:30 MST.

Jon Leibowitz
(jleeb) - F - MLife

Locale: 4Corners
Re: "Faux-dini": 2.3 oz. Windshirt, <$15 - Initial Review and Sourcing on 11/15/2013 09:00:46 MST Print View

Thanks to this thread the shirt is now 17 bucks! haha.

Well, I just ordered one. I wear a medium and got a XL.

I'll post impressions when I get it in another thread that is not crazytown.

Edited by jleeb on 11/15/2013 09:16:12 MST.

scree ride
candy on 11/15/2013 11:34:01 MST Print View

I better hide my candy.

Delmar O'Donnell

Locale: Between Jacinto & Gorgonio
IP and the East on 11/15/2013 11:42:42 MST Print View

Normally I'd apologize for being OT, but this thread is long ago cooked, so here goes:

Intellectual property (IP) is a western concept. As a westerner, I "get" it. (Our own cultures always seem to make more ‘sense’ than foreign cultures.) But the concept of IP is confusing to many people in eastern cultures, who can’t understand how anybody can “own” an idea. It just doesn’t compute for them.

Here in the United States, for example, a certain company “owns” a certain shade of red that only they may use to advertise and sell their products. Chinese manufacturers think that’s the silliest thing in the world--to them it’s like saying you “own” the sun or the moon. You can argue all day long about the investment it takes to build a brand name, and how using that brand name is “stealing,” and it just doesn’t compute for the vast majority of easterners I’ve discussed the issue with. It’s a design, an idea, it’s letters in an alphabet, a graphic, not an actual physical item that can be stolen, is their view. Different world view, different morality.

Same phenomenon in academia. Chinese students are known to plagiarize more than, say, Euro or NA students. Western professors catch them and punish them severely for it. “What did I do wrong?” they wonder in honest puzzlement, not grasping the concept of what plagiarism is. “It’s an idea, it’s words, how can you steal an idea or words? I am honoring these thoughts by repeating them, not stealing them!” Different world view, different morality.

Then they’ll observe how terribly we treat our own parents, and consider us to be highly unethical people. Or they'll be disgusted how unhygenic we are when using the toilet. Different world view, different morality.

That’s why I use the term “Projectile Moralism.” Many of us westerners think our morality is the ONLY acceptable morality, and seek to move heaven and earth to make sure the rest of the world falls in line with ours. It makes us feel good -- feeling smugly self righteous is a good feeling, it's validating, we're saving the earth, etc. We feel good when we've successfully forced our world view on those-- those unenlightened people who live over there.

There are many, many brands of morality on earth. Western “media headline” style morality is but one of them. Travel the world a bit, and you start to understand why the rest of the world thinks we’re so pushy and offensive (speaking as an American, here). It has to be our way or the highway. Accept our morality, or you are evil.

It’s just like Tom said: “…maybe, just maybe, they might have developed value systems that are every bit as legitimate as ours in their cultural/historical context. Our incessant attempts to impose our own on them has led to much needless suffering down thru the years…”

Edited by Bolster on 11/15/2013 11:48:42 MST.

just Justin Whitson
Re: IP and the East on 11/15/2013 13:48:22 MST Print View

Vacation hasn't started yet apparently.

Just wanted to say this in relation to Delmar's last post.

I call B.S. There is some truth to that in a broad sense, but Chinese businessmen certainly know the difference between utilizing or recreating an idea in a general way (say like using a specific combo of merino and polypropylene for specific purposes that another company pioneered), and purposely using a name brand logo in order to fool people to think that they are buying a certain name brand with the motive of profit. That is outright deception in ANY culture.

They understand western culture perhaps better than you think they do, and money and profit is THE universal language in this sad, dark world.

I have traveled the world enough to know that while there are certainly cultural differences between different peoples, but since we're all human, we're still basically more similar than different at the end of the day. Plenty of world wide studies on core psychology strongly suggest that.

And just because something is part of someone's culture, doesn't make it innately sacred, right, acceptable, or ok to agree with or support. Take female genital mutilation in Africa. It may be my western ignorance on my part, but never in a million years will i agree with such practice, never will i support it, and always i would speak against it.

Also, there is a big difference between distanced tolerance of another's cultural practice and outright support that perpetuates, especially in the monetary sense which seems to influence or effect more than anything nowadays. I'm not free of that support, i don't even know how to completely free myself of that besides going out into the wilderness and trying to live a completely sustainable, cut off from civilization lifestyle.

Edited by ArcturusBear on 11/15/2013 13:54:45 MST.

Jon Leibowitz
(jleeb) - F - MLife

Locale: 4Corners
I'm sorry on 11/15/2013 14:14:03 MST Print View

I'm sorry to add oxygen to this fire....but do people here really think there is any difference whatsoever between this shirt and any other windshirt made anywhere in China, India, Malaysia, etc.? What is the difference between this 10 dollar shirt and a $130 windshirt from Montbell...or anything made by REI, or NorthFace, or Brooks, or La Sportiva....? Nothing other than a brand name. NOTHING at all. You're $130 montbell windshirt actually cost about 3 dollars to make just like this one...and the pour soul making your shirt got paid the same shitty wage no matter how much you got ripped off for it.

Has anybody on BPL not purchased a montbell product here because of horrid labor conditions in China? I doubt it. Does anybody here actually know with certainty that a word MEC or Patagonia peddles to us is true about their labor practices other than what is said in their marketing materials? I certainly have never been to a factory in China making Patagonia clothing and I doubt not a single one of you have either.

Apple Computer has gone more out of the way than practically any other American company that exists today to try and guarantee their factories (electronic vs garment, I know)are meeting fair labor standards and even with threats to cut off supply chains and constant audits, Apple still finds egregious labor law violations on a constant basis.

It's the unfortunate nature of outsourcing and unless you purchase 100% American made gear, it's all the same crap made by underpaid folks living under the same horrible labor standards.

I'm not hear saying you shouldn't care or try to make the world a better place but I am saying that this windshirt is no different than any other windshirt you may buy. The fact that it's 10 bucks simply makes it closer to the reality of what it costs to produce.

Delmar O'Donnell

Locale: Between Jacinto & Gorgonio
You're calling what? on 11/15/2013 14:31:48 MST Print View

Justin, I call BS on your BS of calling my BS, BS. :-)

Your reply is entirely culture-bound. You'll score points, maybe, with other westerners, but many easterners would disagree with your perspective. Don't let your insistence that the world conform to your own moral system, spill over into Moral Imperialism. The "sad, dark" world is not as broken as you think it is, nor breathlessly waiting for you to fix it. But if you disagree, then spend your energies on actually doing something, rather than wasting your talents writing rebuttals on an internet forum. Neither you nor I are changing anybody's mind about anything; we're just irritating people at this point. And I think I'll go waste my time on something else for awhile.

"You are young, my son, and, as the years go by, time will change and even reverse many of your present opinions. Refrain therefore awhile from setting yourself up as a judge of the highest matters." -- Plato, Dialogues

Edited by Bolster on 11/15/2013 14:35:04 MST.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: It's a fake on 11/15/2013 14:51:24 MST Print View

I find the response from Jack Wolfskin interesting - more for what they did not say than anything they said.

Reading between the lines, I would guess that they knew all about the fakes and the eBay vendors, and a) knew they could do nothing about them, and b) were not greatly fussed anyhow.

Why this conclusion? They seemed mainly interested in pointing Ian to their retail outlets, not in doing anything about the eBay vendors. It looked like a boilerplate response.

My understanding, from talking to Westerners who live in China and do business in China, is that they do not have or even understand the concept of Intellectual Property, nor do they have any concept of a legally binding agreement or a contract. It drives Westerners crazy, trying to do businesss there in a Western manner.

PS: Personally, I think this thread has some merit in the Gear channel, as it does inform our buying decisions.

scree ride
There is a difference on 11/15/2013 15:18:03 MST Print View

It has a name on it.
While it may be acceptable in other cultures to present myself as somebody else, (and somehow I doubt it), it is not here and right, wrong or indifferent, those are the standards that we live by. That is our culture.

Jon Leibowitz
(jleeb) - F - MLife

Locale: 4Corners
Re: There is a difference on 11/15/2013 15:48:39 MST Print View

So are we talking about the morals of ripping off a corporation (Wolf Skin or whatever they are called) or the morals of essentially supporting slave labor? If it wasn't mislabeled, would it make it more OK to buy it?

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: Re: It's a fake on 11/15/2013 15:50:48 MST Print View

Roger said, "Reading between the lines, I would guess that they knew all about the fakes and the eBay vendors, and a) knew they could do nothing about them, and b) were not greatly fussed anyhow."

Any manufacturer can contact eBay and have counterfeit merchandise removed, after eBay got sued into the Stone Age over Louis Vuitton luggage a few years back. On the other hand, if it's not brought to their attention, this stuff slides under the radar. Keep in mind they are handling many millions of items (and they make a profit by all of them). Note that the logo is legible, but not mentioned in the listing, so you won't catch it on a search. This sort of thing is common with pocket knives, where they show a photo of an expensive knife with the logo well displayed. What you get is a cheap copy and the name isn't mentioned. They are playing on our own greed and wanting something for nothing.

The Chinese aren't alone in this by any means. You can find knock offs all over SE Asia and they are sent all over the world. I don't completely buy the cultural excuse, but I can see your point. The Taliban has cultural differences too, but I'm not buying that either!