Forum Index » GEAR » "Faux-dini": 2.3 oz. Windshirt, <$15 - Initial Review and Sourcing


Display Avatars Sort By:
Valerie E
(Wildtowner) - M

Locale: Grand Canyon State
"Faux-dini": 2.3 oz. Windshirt, <$15 - Initial Review and Sourcing on 11/13/2013 12:04:28 MST Print View

So, I decided to try out a cheapie Faux Houdini being sold on Flea-bay, and I'm amazed!

Salient Facts (photos follow)

- Weight for a medium = 2.3 oz
- Darth Vader test = VERY breathable
- Water test = VERY water resistant (water beads up and rolls off easily)
- Sizing = Asian (i.e., EXTREMELY small; a "unisex Med" is like a Patagucci Women's Sm., so probably not relevant for you big boys out there.)
- Stowaway hood (my preference, since I'm usually wearing a hat, and I don't like hoods flapping behind my head)
- Chest zip pocket (same configuration as Houdini), can be used as a Stow Pocket
- Workmanship = surprisingly good; bottom of jacket & cuffs are elasticized wrap
- Colors = several choices
- Price = $12.30 + $2.42 shipping
- Brand Name on Jacket = Jack Wolfskin
- Shipping time = Paid 11/01; received 11/12
- Source: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Unisex-Sky-ultralight-uvioresistant-Waterproof-Wind-Coat-Cycling-Jacket-Jersey-/121139101853?pt=US_Cycling_Clothing&var=&hash=item1c3474009d
- Seller: chntrade on eBay

Photos:
Jkt 1Jkt 2Jkt 3

D S
(smoke) - F
Sizing on 11/13/2013 12:17:29 MST Print View

Do you think the Unisex size XXL would be anything like US Men's L?

Edited by smoke on 11/13/2013 12:18:08 MST.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: "Faux-dini": 2.3 oz. Windshirt, <$15 - Initial Review and Sourcing on 11/13/2013 12:25:41 MST Print View

Nice find Valerie.

Hopefully it comes from a company/factory that is more ethical than the average in China. One of the few reasons I'm willing to pay for Patagucci (sales and discounts at least) is because they do seem to be more committed than the average to source more ethical companies to work with.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F - M
morality on 11/13/2013 13:06:59 MST Print View

MEC has the same standards as patagucci and still gives 1% back to charity... at half the price

i think that if one wants to be "moral" they should extend their philosophy to things such as everyday clothes, shoes, electronics, appliances, food, etc ... its ironic to worry about a few outdoor pieces when the rest of what you use is not made at the same labour standards .... or the oil that you drive to the trails with that is extracted with real environmental consequences, etc ...

on "cheap" goods ... a few years ago someone made a sub 300$ UL gear list, it caused quite a commotion back then

i really think we should update it ... the price of ALOT of "UL" items have come down, as more and more retailers/manufacturers create "UL" style items ...

im betting that we can either get the price down even lower than 300$ or have better goods for the same amount ...

one of the biggest "wastes" of money for what 99% of what people do here is the $$$$ for outdoor branded clothes ... save money on that and youll likely save hundreds alone

IMO this is quite important as it lowers the barriers for entry to recreation ...

BPL has touched on this before with various articles

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/lightweight_backpacking_wal-mart_style.html

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/made_in_china.html

one thing that struck me today was this article i saw ...

The Guide:
Leo Siecienski, guide and manager at Sea Trek outfitters in Sausalito, California. Siecienski has been a touring, rock gardening, and kayaking guide for 10 years; at one point taught kayaking for six different organizations in the Bay Area at once.

The Gear:
Old baselayers and fleeces, at the cheapest price possible from thrift stores.

The Reason:
Siecienski loads up on inexpensive fleeces and synthetic layers from second-hand stores and packs them in a dry bag for all of his guiding trips. If the client did not bring the correct type of layers, Siecienski can outfit them and not worry about the layers being lost or damaged. "You never know when a client is going to get hypothermic," he says, noting that extra-larges are best to accommodate a range of sizes.


http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-gear/gear-guy/Do-Professional-Guides-Use-Cheap-Gear.html

;)

Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
Re: "Faux-dini": 2.3 oz. Windshirt, <$15 - Initial Review and Sourcing on 11/13/2013 13:09:52 MST Print View

I'm ordering 2 so I can take it apart and add a synthetic layer in it.
Take the zipper and hood off the inside one and no insulation in the hood.

The cheapest price I can find on a Montbell UL jacket is $106, so $30 for a Faux works for me (I already have the insulation).
May even come out lighter than the MB?

The very first piece of clothing I made was a thru-hiker Maxima jacket and it came out like crap.
at least this one should come out much better.

I'm between a medium and a large, hope the XL fits.

Edited by awsorensen on 11/13/2013 13:20:52 MST.

Paul Andronico
(Jakesandwich) - M

Locale: S.F. Bay Area
Sizing on 11/13/2013 13:37:21 MST Print View

I just ordered an XXL to see if it would fit as a US Large (which is what I wear). I'll post the results when the jacket arrives.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: "Faux-dini": 2.3 oz. Windshirt, <$15 - Initial Review and Sourcing on 11/13/2013 13:39:03 MST Print View

Jack Wolfskin is a very well known brand in Europe, FWIW.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: morality on 11/13/2013 14:07:19 MST Print View

Good to know about MEC.

Re: the rest. Unfortunately in this world it tends to take wealth to source only ethically made products. For American standards I'm not even close to being wealthy. However I think every little bit helps, which is why I do try when I'm able. Also why I buy a lot of used clothes, why I eat mostly organic or local, why I eat 99% vegetarian, etc, etc. If everyone tried and did more than not, there would be definite changes in the world. It wouldn't even have to be close to having to do 100%, all the time.

But there are too many apathetic or extremist attitudes out there where people say to themselves or others, well since you or I don't or can't do only ethical, why even bother trying with anything.

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: Re: "Faux-dini": 2.3 oz. Windshirt, <$15 - Initial Review and Sourcing on 11/13/2013 14:20:13 MST Print View

I assume these things from China are piped off the production line. I've heard of conterfitters running an extra shift, using the same patterns elsewhere, etc.

These "communists" can show all the worst attributes of capitalism it seems. This sellers feedback is shaky too.

It seems like a lot of trouble to buy two and attempt to make an insulated jacket from it. One plus a fleece would be as good or better and you can pick the fleece to suit the conditions, wear them separately, etc.

Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
Re: Re: Re: "Faux-dini": 2.3 oz. Windshirt, <$15 - Initial Review and Sourcing on 11/13/2013 14:31:44 MST Print View

So you're basically saying synthetic jackets are no good?

Fleece is heavy. I am looking to have this jacket for back country use as the only jacket to pack.
Works as a wind jacket, doesn't matter if it gets wet and is much lighter than carrying two jackets.

I may also run Vol State next year and need something packable.
I will have a 6 litter vest but still needs to carry 120 ounces of liquids, a 3oz bivy, the jacket and some food.
To me, it's worth every bit of taking it apart and putting the insulation in.

Edited by awsorensen on 11/13/2013 14:33:29 MST.

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: old fleece on 11/13/2013 14:35:44 MST Print View

"Old baselayers and fleeces, at the cheapest price possible from thrift stores."

My kids were both summer camp counselors and the camps maintained clothing boxes. The campers parents were given clear lists of what clothing to send with them and often ignored the lists and sent the kids with cotton sweats, no rain gear, no water bottle, etc. for several years we would snag a duffle bag of this stuff to donate each summer from thrift stores and yard sales.

On a tangent, my wife worked as a camp nurse and found Crocs very useful for kids who chewed their feet up on rocks and barnacles. I found real Crocs and knock-offs for the camp to use as universal shoes.

Paul Andronico
(Jakesandwich) - M

Locale: S.F. Bay Area
Thanks, Valerie on 11/13/2013 14:38:18 MST Print View

Valerie, thanks for sharing a find you made with the BPL community. It is sad to me how often these kind of helpful posts get immediately sidetracked into negative socio-political commentary. If the jacket fits I plan to use it with zero qualms or guilt. And I think a 98.5% positive feedback rating with over 7000 reviews is pretty darn good. Valerie, thanks again.

D S
(smoke) - F
Sizing on 11/13/2013 14:45:58 MST Print View

There appears to be a sizing chart that only comes up about half the time you click on the item (for me anyway). I assume it is in cm. A quick conversion seems to indicate that the sizing is EU, not Asian. Therefore, it would be 1 size off???

It will be interesting to get some feed-back from those actually ordering the bigger sizes.

Edited by smoke on 11/13/2013 14:47:26 MST.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Thanks, Valerie on 11/13/2013 14:51:12 MST Print View

I appreciate her sharing a good deal with us, but unfortunately some of us have a more acute, more sensitive conscience and do think or wonder about some things that to others are inconvenient to think about. Fortunately for you, you're in the majority. Unfortunately for the world those who do think and care about stuff like that are the minority, which is why things tend to stay status quo more or less.

Edited by ArcturusBear on 11/14/2013 09:05:32 MST.

Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
Re: Re: Thanks, Valerie on 11/13/2013 15:11:53 MST Print View

No mater who you order it from, the product still comes from there.

Paul Andronico
(Jakesandwich) - M

Locale: S.F. Bay Area
Conscience? on 11/13/2013 15:20:51 MST Print View

Sometimes a wind shirt is just a wind shirt :) I am glad some folks believe they are saving the world one purchase (or non-purchase) at a time. Go get 'em.

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: Thin insulated jackets on 11/13/2013 15:30:17 MST Print View

"So you are saying that insulated jackets are no good?"

I think I said a fleece plus a windshirt would be less trouble and more versatile.

Thin insulated jackets aren't very warm and don't breath very well. They are only good for a narrow band of temperatures and not very good for hiking in due to breathability and more so with down and perspiration issues.

Note the recent review by Will Riteveld, where he found that a light down jacket wasn't of much use for temps below freezing at rest.

As you have surmised, they are two windshirts with a thin layer of fill between.

If (and only if) you normally use a windshirt, IMHO, a fleecy mid layer like Power Dry/R1 or Power Stretch is as warm and far more versatile. Even a basic 100w fleece will work. My point is that much of the insulated jacket is a duplication of your windshirt. The fleecy mid layer can be worn with your rain shell and for sleep. Fleece can be worn alone while you launder or dry your base layer too.

The logical extension of the windshirt and fleece system is that it can be taken to lower temps by simply taking loftier fleeces like R2 or R3.

You have the option of using fleece vests with a windshirt as well. I'm have a Power Stretch vest that makes an excellent paring.

At some point, the spreadsheet will show that a loftier puffy style layer is a real advantage, but that should be 100g or better synthetic jacket or down for cold/dry conditions.

I own a NanoPuff and use it around town and for travel, but not for hiking. It sucks for anything more active than a stroll in the park. The new 40g jackets coming out are more fashion and folly than useful hiking clothing.

The bottom line for me is this: if you are going to the expense of a puffy layer and then hauling it over hill and dale, it should keep you warm to be worth the bother. If you don't need much warmth and you are already taking a windshirt, then adding a fleecy mid layer is more efficient over a range of uses rather than just a 20-25f temperature range on rest stops and camp. If you are going to add a puffy to your layering system, get a puffy one!

You will have the windshirt. Get or use your existing light fleece and try it before making your insulated jacket.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Conscience? on 11/13/2013 15:32:25 MST Print View

I think you guys should spend more time getting drinking water to third world countries instead of talking about lightweight backpacking : )

Rusty Beaver
(rustyb) - F

Locale: Rocky Mountains
Re: morality on 11/13/2013 15:45:06 MST Print View

"MEC has the same standards as patagucci and still gives 1% back to charity... at half the price"

Hi Eric,

I'm not familiar with MEC. Could you explain their "standards" in comparison to Patagonias?

Also, have you read "Let My People Go Surfing" by Patagonia owner, Yvon Chouinard?

And E
(LunchANDYnner) - M

Locale: Pacific Northwest
just ordered a couple on 11/13/2013 16:13:48 MST Print View

Thanks, Valerie! I just ordered one for myself and one for my lady.

Rick M
(rmjapan) - F

Locale: Tokyo, Japan
Re: just ordered a couple on 11/13/2013 16:22:17 MST Print View

Jack Wolfskin is a popular German outdoor brand. Kinda like Columbia. At $12, I'd think it might ba a faux Jack Wolfskin!

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Faux-dini": 2.3 oz. Windshirt, <$15 - Initial Review and Sourcing on 11/13/2013 16:24:10 MST Print View

That jacket has nothing to do with Patagonia and I am pretty sure that it is just a wind jacket with the Wolfskin name on it.
As far as I am aware, Jack Wolfskin does not sell anything like that but in any case it would be about 10x or more than that.
BTW, all Jack Wolfskin jackets have the logo on the other side.
Also if you compare the logo you will find that it does not match :
logo

Edited by Franco on 11/13/2013 16:28:24 MST.

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: Conscience? on 11/13/2013 16:40:51 MST Print View

"Sometimes a wind shirt is just a wind shirt :) I am glad some folks believe they are saving the world one purchase (or non-purchase) at a time. Go get 'em."

Tadpole, whatever you do, you make ripples in the pond. I have visions of abused workers, corruption and shoddy goods. When you put money in, you encourage more. Think.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F - M
Re: Re: morality on 11/13/2013 16:47:37 MST Print View

I'm not familiar with MEC. Could you explain their "standards" in comparison to Patagonias?

ill let you read all about it ... it will take up a lot of posts just to put everything on BPL ...

http://www.mec.ca/AST/ContentPrimary/AboutMEC/Sustainability/EthicalSourcing.jsp

http://www.mec.ca/AST/ContentPrimary/AboutMEC/Sustainability/ProductSustainability.jsp

code of conduct ...

http://www.mec.ca/media/Images/pdf/MEC_Code_of_Conduct_v2_m56577569831344307.pdf

factory list ...

http://www.mec.ca/media/Images/pdf/MEC_Factory_List_v2_m56577569831342684.pdf

2012 accountability report manufacturing section ...

http://www.mec.ca/AST/ContentPrimary/AboutMEC/Sustainability/AccountabilityReport/Manufacturing.jsp?CONTENT%3C%3Ecnt_id=10134198674180684

environmental initiatives

http://www.mec.ca/AST/ContentPrimary/AboutMEC/Sustainability/GreeningOperations.jsp

MEC 1% for the planet

http://www.mec.ca/AST/ContentPrimary/Community/PartnershipsAndAffiliations/1ForThePlanet.jsp

MEC charitable donation and land acquisitions ... note that MEC is a major financial supporter of acquiring land for local parks to preserve areas from real estate development ... in squamish they helped decades ago with serious financing to preserve the smoke bluffs, today likely the busiest climbing area in canaada ... they also recently helped acquire the upper malamute to preserve the climbing routes for future generations

Jim Rutter, manager of the FMCBC, discovered that the Smoke Bluffs were to be bought by a property developer and closed to the public for good. Unfortunately, the FMCBC didn’t have the money to purchase the bluffs. After some discussion, there was a pause as Dad tallied up his life savings then said, “Tell them I’ll offer $70,000.” And to their surprise the offer was accepted. Suddenly The Smoke Bluffs belonged to Mr. John Randall and were safe.

But Mr. and Mrs. Randall weren’t in a financial position to purchase crags willy-nilly. My Dad’s actions gave the FMCBC time to act, and it agreed to purchase the bluffs from Dad. With Jim Rutter’s efforts in securing a loan from The Mountain Equipment Co-op, the Smoke Bluffs became the property of the Federation, who quickly put fundraising schemes into motion to permanently secure the area.


http://gripped.com/2010/08/sections/articles/can-rockies-legend-andy-genereux-climb-50-routes-on-the-yamnuska-2/

The climbing community has been working for years to protect and secure access to this important area which has, until now, been privately owned. New life was breathed into the campaign when the property was sold about three years ago for a fraction of its value (recently estimated to be $1.66 million). That’s when MEC became actively involved by making a $15,000 grant to The Land Conservancy of BC (TLC) to support the research and groundwork required to land a deal.

http://blogmec.wordpress.com/2010/09/28/the-malamute-is-protected/

http://www.mec.ca/AST/ContentPrimary/Community/CommunityContributions.jsp

and a recent story on overseas partners ...

http://blog.mec.ca/2012/09/06/sourcing-a-good-nights-sleep/

for patagucci you can read about it here ...

http://www.patagonia.com/us/patagonia.go?assetid=67583

i would say MEC follows the "same" standards in terms of sustainable and ethical practices as any other "outdoor" company you can name out there

and their gear is pretty good, and substantially cheaper ...

i indicated this years ago that patagucci "premium" for "ethics" and "sustainable" practices can be had just as easily at MEC for a better value .. it wasnt well received back then

hopefully the made in CANADA T2/T3 layers that many BPLers did a group buy on can start to change some minds

;)

Don Morris
(hikermor) - F
Clothing and Ethics on 11/13/2013 16:47:57 MST Print View

I have become concerned about the conditions in which my threads are produced ever since this summer's horror show in Bangladesh. Interestingly enough, Patagonia has very detailed information on their suppliers; REI has a general statement that they support ethical standards and decent working conditions (presumably that would include factories that do not collapse spontaneously). Noting that I had several items of theirs labeled from Bangladesh, I wrote to Duluth Trading and inquired about their feelings on the issue. I got a pro forma response "Your concerns have been conveyed to the Board of Directors." Too bad - their stuff is pretty good, but I won't be buying it anymore. I will be happy to spend more at Pat and similar enterprises.

Anyone have more info about ethical retailers?

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F - M
Re: Re: Re: morality on 11/13/2013 16:55:42 MST Print View

just to add ... some companies sweep it all under a rug ...

heres what you want to see ... from MEC

AUDITED MEC-BRAND FACTORIES WITH UNACCEPTABLE VIOLATIONS
At the end of 2012, 13% of our audited factories in the past 18 months (10 of 79) had unacceptable violations. This number has decreased from 17% that were found at the end of 2011.

Our 2012 audit year noted four factories with new unacceptable violations. Two of these factories resolved their violations and were confirmed complete through a verification audit. Two other factories that had unacceptable violations in 2011 have also remediated these violations. MEC chose to phase out of two factories with unresolved violations. At the end of 2012, ten factories were left with outstanding unacceptable violations.

Seven of these ten factories restricted MEC auditor access. In two of the seven factories, we have started collaboration initiatives with other brands to share social compliance audits and remediation plans. Once we have completed the shared audits and see needed improvements, we will take these two factories off the unacceptable list. We are in communication with two factories who only allowed a partial audit. We are working with them to come to an agreement for the audit scope. At the same time, we are seeking other sourcing options, should either of the factories not wish to comply with the STEP program. As for the other three facilities restricting the STEP audit, we understand the risks associated, as we have been able to visit the facilities. We are working with the Product Manager to find new suppliers that will participate fully in our STEP program.





The graph above provides an overall look into our total supply chain. The apparel industry has been exposed to social compliance for over a decade. This is one of the reasons why many of the apparel factories in our supply chain meet our minimum standards and have fewer high-priority items.



http://www.mec.ca/AST/ContentPrimary/AboutMEC/Sustainability/AccountabilityReport/Manufacturing.jsp?CONTENT%3C%3Ecnt_id=10134198674180684


and now back to el cheapo windshirts ....

;)

Edited by bearbreeder on 11/13/2013 17:03:31 MST.

Valerie E
(Wildtowner) - M

Locale: Grand Canyon State
A Thunderhead of Judgment/Do the Best You Can on 11/13/2013 17:18:38 MST Print View

Wow. I really wasn't intending to make a political statement here. I just thought I'd highlight a product I found, foreign-made though it is.

Yes, Patagucci and MEC and many other companies have corporate citizenship programs that are good public relations exercises for them. Maybe I'm being too cynical; maybe I'm not, but I think we should all question just how much impact these programs have...and whether one company's contributions are more "important" than another's.

Thanks for all the input, but please consider that many of you standing in judgment may, many times a day, make equally impolitic consumption decisions.

Do you know where every bite of your food comes from (and if you grow your own, what about soil, seeds, "organic" purchased fertilizer, irrigation systems, etc.)? How many electronics do you own, and what do you know about the mines where the manufacturers got the metals for those "toys"? What kind of cars/trucks do you own? What about all your clothes, furniture, toiletries, etc.? Do you live off the grid, or do you buy power/water from the local utility, and what are their environmental practices? I could go on, but I think I've more than made my point.

Personally, I try to do the best I can to be a responsible person. I didn't drive a car until I was 38 years old (I walked, biked, or took public transit), I only have one car (a gas-sipping Honda Civic), my house has low ceilings (HVAC is in cubic inches!), I often walk to the local farmer's market to buy food, I buy MANY things used (re-use!!!) and try to give away/sell things I don't want (keep stuff out of the trash and create less need for new items to be manufactured), etc. I do not pretend that I am an "eco-warrier" or try to tell others how to live (well, I try not to, anyway!). ;~)

I'm sure that many of the people on this website also TRY THEIR BEST to live in a responsible manner, given that we are "first world" folks, with first world wants/expectations.

Please, before you start slinging vitriol my way for simply being honest about peoples' "actual" environmentalism, do the following: look at your own lifestyle with a more critical eye, to be sure that you aren't "people in glass houses throwing stones". I find it very hard to believe that the folks who were upset by this jacket have never bought Chinese-manufactured goods of any kind.

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: A Thunderhead of Judgment/Do the Best You Can on 11/13/2013 17:23:50 MST Print View

I thought it was a rather mature disscussion. Some stating of opinions and insights. No name calling or the like. Please don't be distressed!

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F - M
Re: Re: A Thunderhead of Judgment/Do the Best You Can on 11/13/2013 17:34:37 MST Print View

invariably almost any BPL discussion on cheap gear from china becomes bogged down in "ethics" ... as someone always says "well im not putting kids into slavery making my goods, so ill buy patacucci (its almost ALWAYS patagucci that gets bought up)"

i can dig out threads from years pasts of the exact same thing if we so desire =P

other than the "morality" of focusing on a few pieces of outdoor gear vs. all the other stuff you consumer ... as mentioned above

people often forget that the first world nations of japan, korea, taiwan, hong kong, and even the US/UK were industrialized this way ... and in the asian countries lifted out of poverty

china has brought hundreds of millions of into relative prosperity, not without problems of course ... thanks to all us american/canadian/european consumers ... its quite fair to say that when you buy stuff from those countries, the population there benefits somewhat

remember that there are tons of "abuses" even in the first world .. if you look at the MEC report ... theres abuses in canadian factories, and notably taiwan ones (which is a first world nation with generally decent standards) ...

all of this of course goes out the window once someone brings up "ethics" on BPL

what i find amazing personally is that its always patagucci thats brought up ... what about the rest of us who own dead birds, MH, montbell, etc ...

;)

Ron D
(dillonr) - MLife

Locale: Colorado
Re: A Thunderhead of Judgment/Do the Best You Can on 11/13/2013 17:42:35 MST Print View

If you want to buy the windshirt from China, just buy it. If you feel guilty then take the price difference between it and a Houdini and donate it to an appropriate charity. The Philippines could certainly use the help right now and the good you would be doing is much greater than buying from Patagonia or MEC.
Ron

Justin Baker
(justin_baker) - F

Locale: west coast best coast
Gear on 11/13/2013 17:55:15 MST Print View

This entire discussion seems so ridiculous coming from a site where many of it's members have entire rooms dedicated to gear.

Edited by justin_baker on 11/13/2013 17:56:55 MST.

Delmar O'Donnell
(Bolster)

Locale: Between Jacinto & Gorgonio
Now I want one. EYOE! on 11/13/2013 18:00:24 MST Print View

All the grandstanding and ethical one-upmanship in this thread is having the effect of making me want to buy one, even though I don't need one.

Valerie, please know we DO appreciate your finding & reporting on this item.

EYOE - Employ Your Own Ethics (an hommage to the HYOH ethos). I feel no compunction to follow anyone else's ethical system but my own, and don't give a hundredth of a hoot if anyone thinks I'm unethical from buying a Chinese windshirt.

I think people who try to control my behavior by imposing their value systems are unethical!

Edited by Bolster on 11/13/2013 18:10:21 MST.

Delmar O'Donnell
(Bolster)

Locale: Between Jacinto & Gorgonio
No. on 11/13/2013 18:11:17 MST Print View

I wish! Sadly, my ethical system does NOT allow me to do whatever I want.

In Plain American Non-vulgar English, it would be:

"I have my own internal guidance system, I don't need yours."

My ethical system is likely different from other peoples' systems.

Embrace the diversity.

Edited by Bolster on 11/13/2013 18:32:35 MST.

Valerie E
(Wildtowner) - M

Locale: Grand Canyon State
RE: Re: A Thunderhead of Judgment/Do the Best You Can on 11/13/2013 18:24:25 MST Print View

A few things...

Ron D -- Great idea - LOVE IT! I'm texting a donation for the Philippines right now!

Eric C -- About 10 years ago, in a discussion of the (then) burgeoning Chinese manufacturing giant, my husband predicted that within a few years, the workers would want a better lifestyle, and would demand higher wages, and their society would change, and then we'd have to find a new source of cheap manufacturing. What's amazing is that this is coming to pass, even under "communism"! (I know, name only...)

Justin B -- said it best:
>>This entire discussion seems so ridiculous coming from a site where many of it's members have entire rooms dedicated to gear.

And I thought I had pretty good logic...if brevity is the soul of wit, YOU are one witty dude! :~)

Delmar -- good for you; you know who you are and are willing to "own" your choices.

I didn't open this discussion, but if there's one thing I hope this post will do (besides letting people know about a cheapie windshirt, LOL), it is to get folks to look into their souls (and their own behavior) a little bit deeper before galloping off on their high horse. Said with empathy, kind intentions, and for the betterment of all.

zorobabel frankenstein
(zorobabel) - F

Locale: SoCal
nice find on 11/13/2013 18:27:41 MST Print View

Thank you Valerie for sharing your find and reviewing it!

About sizing, could you please measure your medium jacket and post the measurements here? (chest, sleeves, center back length...).

I usually wear a mens size small, though about half the time I feel it is too big (a Land's End small would be kinda large but short; TNF, Marmot are usually large); do you think I'd fit in the medium?

P.S. Guys, please stop the thread crapping.

Edited by zorobabel on 11/13/2013 18:28:56 MST.

Rusty Beaver
(rustyb) - F

Locale: Rocky Mountains
Re: Re: Re: morality on 11/13/2013 18:59:47 MST Print View

Thanks, Eric. From a cursory look, MEC looks like a decent company.

RE Patagonia, I was/am aware of what they have done and are doing. "Let My People Go Surfing" goes into it far deeper than what they could put on their website.

Have you read that book?

To the original poster, Valerie: Sorry your thread got derailed the way it did. It's par for the course here though. On the bright side, think about the good that may come from it. The derailment of threads like this might just have a positive influence on someone.

Peace to all.

Edited by rustyb on 11/13/2013 20:25:51 MST.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: RE: Re: A Thunderhead of Judgment/Do the Best You Can on 11/13/2013 19:01:34 MST Print View

"but if there's one thing I hope this post will do (besides letting people know about a cheapie windshirt, LOL), it is to get folks to look into their souls"

Awwww shucks Valerie, you had me until this. My soul is a dark, scary place. Ain't gonna go looking there....

BTW, nice find!

Edited by idester on 11/13/2013 19:02:14 MST.

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: nice find on 11/13/2013 19:03:36 MST Print View

So promoting the purchase of counterfeit products should go without mention? Counterfeiting is illegal and theft of the logo's reputation.

Consider this, if the product had a label from one of our cottage manufacturers, there would be a hew and cry heard all the way to Canton. Well, the people who work for Jack Wolfskin need their jobs too.

I think it is fine to point such things out, but it should be done with politeness and respect.

IMHO, when you knowingly buy counterfeit merchandise, you contribute to worker abuse and corruption and it is a form of theft.

I don't think the OP knew or really considered that when starting this thread and deserves some slack. I think Franco's points on the details do identify this item as counterfeit and I encourage you all to refrain from buying them.

What gets me is that the manufacturer could simply post them for what they are, pointing out the attributes that attracted us all in the first place and leave the stolen logo off. I think they would sell just fine.

My (respectful) $0.02

Rusty Beaver
(rustyb) - F

Locale: Rocky Mountains
Re: Re: nice find on 11/13/2013 19:07:58 MST Print View

"I think it is fine to point such things out, but it should be done with politeness and respect. IMHO, when you knowingly buy counterfeit merchandise, you contribute to worker abuse and corruption and it is a form of theft. I don't think the OP knew or really considered that when starting this thread and deserves some slack."

Good words, Dale. Thanks.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Re: nice find on 11/13/2013 19:43:02 MST Print View

Edited because i am human, and not a paradigm of ethics, and i understand that most do try with what they know, can afford, etc.


It was not my intention to cause a ruckus or to sit in judgement of others, or to point fingers. As i said, i'm not a paradigm of ethics, but i do think and care about these issues, and really wish that i, personally do could more, or that were more people who cared more.

I do admit i got a little defensive and irked when i read Paul A.'s 2nd reply which seemed, directed, albeit subtly with indirect innuendo, towards my direction in a rather more personal and judgmental way.

In my first post, i was speaking extremely generally and impersonally, but i should not have let myself start getting defensive and personal later on. It doesn't matter what others say or do to me, only what i do or say to others. I will try to live that more in the future, and try to stick harder to being impersonal and general with this kind of stuff.

Peace

p.s., i want to thank Eric Chan for all the info on MEC. They sound like a company i would like to and should support in the future.

Edited by ArcturusBear on 11/13/2013 22:29:03 MST.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: Re: Re: nice find on 11/13/2013 19:52:26 MST Print View

I've been censored!

I guess my sarcastic humor system is different than others' and we can't embrace the diversity.
xxxxx

Goodnight BPL.
----------------------
Diversity is good.
Vulgarity is needless.

Roger Caffin
Online Community monitor
Backpacking Light

Edited by rcaffin on 11/13/2013 19:59:46 MST.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
However, beware of the side effects on 11/13/2013 19:58:32 MST Print View

Of course poor working conditions are to be deplored.
Of course child labour is to be deplored.
Of course the West should consider what it is doing.
However, beware of the side effects.

Well-meaning people are working hard to bring to an end the use (not employment!) of children in rug marking in Nepal. Surely a good thing? However, it seems the children (well, the young girls anyhow) are simply being diverted into the bonded sex trade in India.

Complaining that the factory conditions are atrocious is all very well, but what if the alternative is unemployment and starvation? Difficult, very difficult.

Realistically, things do change, but it takes time. Perhaps buying goods from Asia is slowly helping the whole country get a slow rise in the standard of living, as Western money comes into the country?

Difficult.

Cheers

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Question for Roger about editing on 11/13/2013 20:20:50 MST Print View

So you let the poster know when you delete an entire post?

michael adamski
(mikeadamski) - M
Ebay let's you give at purchase. on 11/13/2013 20:30:10 MST Print View

At checkout, Ebay gives you the option to tack on a donation to aid the efforts in the Philippines.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Question for Roger about editing on 11/13/2013 20:42:45 MST Print View

Hi Katharina

> So you let the poster know when you delete an entire post?
Not always.

If the post was an isolated instance I may just delete it and hope that the poster gets the message. That way there is no fuss and bother. Yes, this works quite well.

If only part of the posting was over the limits (say just one sentence) I may delete just that part. I would usually note in the posting that I had done so. This message is a bit more noticeable.

If the poster was creating a bit of a problem I may PM or email that person and ask them to take note of the BPL restrictions re language.

If the poster is over the top I may simply ban them without notice. This applies especially to shoe-spammers :-)

Cheers

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Question for Roger about editing on 11/13/2013 21:00:45 MST Print View

Ok....

Inserting yourself in Craig's post above seems a bit intrusive to me. I mean, you had the chance to explain yourself in the post you deleted entirely, or write your own. To insert your post into a perfectly legitimate, vulgarity free post.....seems like over reaching.

Dustin Short
(upalachango) - MLife
Re: Re: Re: Question for Roger about editing on 11/14/2013 00:45:11 MST Print View

Kat, it's just how Caffin does it. As with all forums there are admins and some are good, some are bad, and all have their quirks. Caffin usually is pretty hands off but his style has always been to modify posts for offensive material, especially from generally active and polite forum users.

Granted I didn't see the original post but meh, comes with not administrating your own forum.

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Faux-dini": 2.3 oz. Windshirt, <$15 - Initial Review and Sourcing on 11/14/2013 02:21:21 MST Print View

"To insert your post into a perfectly legitimate, vulgarity free post.....seems like over reaching"
Maybe the F word almost fully spelled out is OK with you but it isn't for others.
And no , I did not complain , I am just letting you know what it was about.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Question for Roger about editing on 11/14/2013 02:33:27 MST Print View

Hi Katharina

> Inserting yourself in Craig's post above seems a bit intrusive to me.
Yes, you are quite right, but the intrusion was deliberate. I was saying to the writer that what had been written in that posting was not acceptable.

> To insert your post into a perfectly legitimate, vulgarity free post.....seems
> like over reaching.
It was not 'vulgarity free' when I first read it.

The post I deleted entirely - yes, it was also unacceptable. Should I spend hours writing little essays every time? Maybe, but I don't have that much spare time. A straight deletion is also a fairly clear message to the writer.

As Franco wrote ...

Cheers

Woubeir (from Europe)
(Woubeir) - F - MLife
Re: Re: Re: Re: Question for Roger about editing on 11/14/2013 03:26:59 MST Print View

Just to add that such an action is part of the forum-guidelines and is just the way it is done here.

Peter S
(prse) - MLife

Locale: Denmark
Re: Re: Re: Re: Question for Roger about editing on 11/14/2013 03:47:29 MST Print View

Roger, thanks for explaining your moderation-actions. This is very appreciated and positive IMO.


You could probably have saved yourself some time and do at the same time as you moderated though ;-)

Edited by prse on 11/14/2013 03:51:32 MST.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Question for Roger about editing on 11/14/2013 06:06:03 MST Print View

My question was not why the "offending post" was deleted. My question was why Roger had to edit Craig's next post . If there is not enough time to let the poster know their post has been deleted entirely, or to write a note about it, then why take the time to edit a perfectly legitimate post and explain your actions there?
So Franco....what was your reply about in this context?
And those telling me that this is what admins do.....I know what they do and I know that Roger has changed over the last few weeks.

How did the survey go and did Roger not jump in to some of our complaints about the proposed new rules, saying that they were just proposals, so don't get all in a huff...?

These are very specific questions, not why do moderators exist etc.

1. Results of the survey; do we have them? Did they matter?
2. A post that merely mentions one having had a different post entirely deleted:
If you don't have enough time to explain the one you deleted completely, or write a reply about it, why enter someone else's that way you did? Anyone reading that does not get the picture of what really happened here.

So can you not leave one be if they write "oops I have been deleted and do not really like it". ? It would save you some time not to edit posts that contain no vulgarity are are not in the least bit offensive.

No disrespect meant, but replies about the F word not being ok have nothing to do with my question, nor do generic "defense of moderator duties".

Edited by Kat_P on 11/14/2013 06:18:54 MST.

scree ride
(scree)
Cause he can on 11/14/2013 07:20:16 MST Print View

This post is not my own. I'm over it.Anybody else?

If I buy a product and part of my money is donated to charity, who gets the tax credit? not me. Why don't they just lower their prices and let me pick my own charities. Their goal is for me to feel good about overspending on their products.
The main reason I have a "room dedicated to just gear" is that I have bought many cheap products over the years then I buy something decent to replace them. Our landfills are filled with cheap products. This may or may not be one of those products.
A good find, depends on how long it lasts.

Edited by scree on 11/14/2013 07:51:56 MST.

Jon Leibowitz
(jleeb) - F - MLife

Locale: 4Corners
So anyways on 11/14/2013 07:31:51 MST Print View

Back to the topic on hand......has anyone managed to order this thing in another color than sky blue? The description below shows some cool colors but I can't figure out how to order it in other colors......

D S
(smoke) - F
Here's how- on 11/14/2013 07:49:31 MST Print View

>Back to the topic on hand......has anyone managed to order this thing in another color than sky blue? The description below shows some cool colors but I can't figure out how to order it in other colors......<

Go to the original linked ad, then go to seller's store. Do a search for "jacket" and the individual ads for each color will come up. Then, order accordingly.

Sizing chart should also appear at bottom.

Hope that helps!

Edited by smoke on 11/14/2013 07:50:39 MST.

scree ride
(scree)
seller's store on 11/14/2013 07:56:15 MST Print View

Just be prepared they don't censor.

Ian Schumann
(freeradical) - M

Locale: Central TX
Re: the bigger picture on 11/14/2013 09:49:25 MST Print View

Roger,
You said this among other things:
Complaining that the factory conditions are atrocious is all very well, but what if the alternative is unemployment and starvation? Difficult, very difficult.

... and I found that whole post of yours to be very balanced, honest, and considerate.

This is something I've talked over numerous times with my wife (who works in fighting domestic human trafficking here in the USA) and with our friends, most of whom are into socially-conscious purchasing, and the like.

I think it's interesting to consider the micro- or mini-economic impacts of our exporting our own cultural values onto other developing economies. What I mean by that is just what you've pointed out here -- that while the proliferation of sweat-shop labor or harsh working conditions might seem unconscionable to progressive-minded western consumers, sometimes the very workers who are in those east-asian factories would strongly object to the closing of those jobs. We forget quickly (as was also pointed out) that the robber-baron age, or gilded age, of US history was very much the same way, and was critical to our own industrial revolution and creation of an urban middle class. At least, this is the story that's been taught to me.

So what is the solution? As Roger said there may not be a clear-cut choice that is airtight from all sides. If we purchase counterfeit, knockoff, or sweat-shop produced goods, we may subject distant laborers to some temporary suffering. If we refuse to buy those same goods, then we inadvertently lay off those workers, most of whom were at work voluntarily in those sweat shops, and force them to compete for ever-fewer jobs in order to feed their families. The labor will flow inexorably toward whatever opening the market creates, and for the western consumer of conscience, there may simply not be a quick fix.

This is probably an amateurish consideration of the overall issue, as we're getting into a pandora's box regarding macro-economic development and a lot of stuff that I know pitifully little about.

But my point is ... in my view it would seem an oversimplification for us to assume that simply by purchasing from fair trade or ethically supply-chained companies, that we have decisively solved one of the world's problems. Upon closer inspection from the other end of the supply chain, the issue looks a bit more nuanced than that.

This is not to put anyone down here or to take a particular side. I'm just sharing the fruit of some own IRL conversations I've had with activist friends here.

As a final gift, if anyone really wants to explore the rabbit hole and see how far you have to go to avoid being a hypocrite, take a look here:
http://slaveryfootprint.org/
Through large amounts of gathered data and statistics, this little app will make an educated guess at how many slaves you employ, based on your consumption and existing possessions. Pretty eye-opening.

Update / Edit
Just took the survey again myself. Looks like I employ an estimate of 42 slaves.

Maybe instead of talking about lowest base weight, we could compare how many (or few) slaves each of us employ inadvertently. I'm joking of course. Well, at least half-joking.

Edited by freeradical on 11/14/2013 09:58:54 MST.

Link .
(annapurna) - MLife
Re: So anyways on 11/14/2013 09:59:50 MST Print View

.

Edited by annapurna on 11/14/2013 10:00:22 MST.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: the bigger picture on 11/14/2013 12:52:55 MST Print View

This entire thread is a disaster from about the 3rd post or so forward.

Maybe everyone should turn off the computer and go hiking or something outdoors.

Hmm... good idea. See you in a couple weeks.

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Faux-dini": 2.3 oz. Windshirt, <$15 - Initial Review and Sourcing on 11/14/2013 13:45:59 MST Print View

Well I am dumbfounded.
The thread is about a counterfit Jack Wolfskin wind jacket.
Jack Wolfskin employs about 700 workers but somehow everybody here is discussing Patagonia, another company that happens to have nothing to do with this...
Then a member chooses to spell out the F word and I am questioned about what that has to do with anything.

And E
(LunchANDYnner) - M

Locale: Pacific Northwest
all initial D/the fast and the furious up in here on 11/14/2013 13:59:23 MST Print View

Cuz this thread is pulling off some sick drifts.

I ordered a couple, as I've mentioned earlier. Whether they're counterfeit or not, is not for me to determine, nor is it my job to police ebay. If it is counterfeit, well, that sucks for jack wolfskin, but it played no part in my decision to buy it, as I had not ever heard of that company. I bought it because it was cheap and looked interesting to try out. If it is counterfeit, then I hope jack wolfskin will be able to do something about it to stop exploitation of their brand name.

I read the gear posts to read about gear, not about politics and ethics and whatnot. I thank Valerie for her post that highlighted a purchase she made and received, and it's regrettable that people took it upon themselves to turn this thread into their personal soapbox.

I ordered mine yesterday and it has already shipped, so +1 to the seller for being quick with that.

Edited by LunchANDYnner on 11/14/2013 14:03:16 MST.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Doug on 11/14/2013 14:16:05 MST Print View

Doug could sort this out pretty quickly.

Franco, you don't understand how your comment about the F word had nothing to do with my specific question to Roger?

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Question for Roger about editing on 11/14/2013 14:40:57 MST Print View

Hi Katharina

> I know that Roger has changed over the last few weeks
Um ... not that much?
Ryan and I discussed some recent problems and it seemed that my taking a slightly more active role could be beneficial. That's the only change I am aware of. If I have meanwhile gone senile or something, I don't want to know about it :-)

> How did the survey go and did Roger not jump in to some of our complaints about the
> proposed new rules
Ryan is running the survey. You need to ask him, not me. And he makes the rules as it is his web site.
Mind you, I don't think any of the rules are 'new'. They were summarised by someone as 'be nice'. I think that is a good summary.

> It would save you some time not to edit posts that contain no vulgarity are are not
> in the least bit offensive.
I have answered that question once already. At the time, before I deleted one sentence, it was rated 'offensive'.

Cheers

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Question for Roger about editing on 11/14/2013 14:46:48 MST Print View

"They were summarised by someone as 'be nice'. I think that is a good summary."

No reason for "the rules" to be more than that.

It just encourages people to argue about the rules and how they're being enforced.

Corbin McFarlane
(raven15) - MLife
Consider the Chinese Perspective on 11/14/2013 14:48:52 MST Print View

The average Chinese factory worker was/is a peasant farmer, using a hand-whittled stick with metal on the end to scratch the ground for peanuts to subsist on. Literally. The farmer raises pigs, the profit from the pigs goes to new clothes for the whole family for New Year. They raise the pigs with little or no veterinary knowledge. If ten pigs live and are not stolen they break even, if twelve pigs can be sold the family will be lucky to get new underwear for New Year, if an average of 30 pigs are sold everyone gets a whole new set of clothes per year!

Now you go to work for a factory while continuing to subsist by growing peanuts. You stitch sleeves on windshirts for $1.35/hr, working 2000 hours per year even while planting and harvesting peanuts. You think "Wow, $2700 per year guaranteed income for just sitting here stitching! Just think how many things I can give my family this New Year with $2700!!! I can buy two sets of clothes for my whole family! Heck, by this time next year I can even afford a solar water heater! Imagine the luxury of being able take a hot shower in my own home 8 months out of the year... This beats the heck out of raising sick pigs seven times before Wednesday!"

So it's safe to say that your $15 is going to a Chinese worker who is quite agreeable with the money from the job, and may even be considered a good cause (just because someone works for the money doesn't make it a bad cause). Given the permeating face-saving, there is no reason at all to believe that there is any more corruption or worse working conditions than the $150 windshirt factory. In fact, at $15 there is no margin for bad corruption or profiteering. In fact, I would say the $15 shirt is overwhelmingly the most ethical shirt because a very high percentage of the money is going to the workers. For that price it is likely either a fly-by-the-seat-of-the-pants cottage operation in the sticks with flexible hours and local workers, or an after-hours profit-the-little-guy run in a larger factory that just happened to be picked up by an entrepreneur with an eBay account. Compare that to a name-brand jacket retailing for $150, with a production value of $10, and $140 of profiteering and corruption in between.

I doubt Jackwolfskin is losing anything either. Probably the jacket is intended for local consumption. Every local who buys it never heard of or saw the company, and couldn't afford it either way. Everyone who knows of Jack Wolfskin immediately knows it's not genuine.

As stated above, by far the most ethical and beneficial choice for all (excluding some potential name brand profits) is to buy the $15 jacket, and donate $135 to the Philippines.

scree ride
(scree)
Wolfskin or Wolfsken? on 11/14/2013 14:53:25 MST Print View

Like it or not, kids in third world countries need work. Free enterprise isn't free. Somebody has to pay for it. They get the privilege of exposure. Lead, fiber dust, machinery... All that stuff we don't allow our own kids around. Not that all foreign factories are substandard , or that all American factories aren't. One should simply be as aware as they can possibly afford to, as to where their goods come from.
If you think they might be counterfeit, contact the seller, report it to Ebay. It really is our concern.
If I have the slightest inkling that something may be counterfeit or stolen, I don't buy it. I don't see much difference between the two.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Question for Roger about editing on 11/14/2013 14:53:33 MST Print View

Roger,
You answered my question about the survey.
As far as the other question the only related answer you have given was when you said it would take too long to write the explanation in a separate post.
Back to square one.
You deleted an entire post, based on an offensive word. Fine.
Craig wrote a post without anything offensive in it, just commenting about having had a post deleted. Instead of answering in your own post you took the liberty to edit Craig's perfectly legitimate post to add a possibly snarky explanation. Snarky is debatable here.
Right below that you had enough time to write a whole post about the ethics of the jacket etc.

Now. If you want this to just move on, the only honest answer at this point is that you did it because you could. Not because it was right, not because you did not have enough time.
That we can/ have to live with.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Question for Roger about editing on 11/14/2013 15:03:17 MST Print View

Please, if you are going to answer, address my question. I do not need another explanation of why the first post was deleted.

D S
(smoke) - F
Am I somehow more ethical?? on 11/14/2013 15:05:32 MST Print View

Am I somehow more ethical for paying a lot of $ for my Mountain Hardwear Ghost Whisperer Wind Shirt that says "Made in China" on it?? I doubt that it cost more to manufacture than the shirt being discussed and was probably produced under similar conditions (maybe even in the same factory).

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: Am I somehow more ethical?? on 11/14/2013 15:55:22 MST Print View

Maybe. That is why companies like MEC have gone to great lengths to insure that the whole process is good for the workers, the environment and the end consumer. They have the time and resources to get accurate information that a consumer can't chase on a practical level. I like the idea that I can check that off on any products I buy there.

There are a number of issues that should concern us all. The issues of working conditions and worker's rights are important. Environmental issues like air, water and soil contamination should be considered. Also, the safety for the end user has been an issue as well. From my memory, China has had problems with food contamination and heavy metal content in toys and recycled shopping bags.

Stepping aside from the obvious moral issues, much of the knockoff stuff is junk. I bought a fleece on eBay with the Mountain Hardwear logo prominently displayed and sold by a stateside vendor. It was the worst stuff I have ever seen. It even *smelled* bad! I had to ship it back at my own cost to get at least partial refund. I might have just thrown it away, or washed it and donated it, but I wanted the seller to feel some of the pain.

In the case of these windshirts, I would be suspect of the DWR and fabric quality in general, as well as the zippers and the thread used.

There are products that may have some real safety issues and this counterfeit to eBay system sidesteps a lot of the consumer safety process. Think about the problem with the Jetboil stoves doing meltdowns and then take that to stoves sold with no quality control/consumer safety process. There is no good reporting chain, so it would take a lot of incidents for the problem to be identified. Basically, you step into anarchy when you buy counterfeit goods.

It's not just China, of course. I'm afraid it is an ignorance-is-bliss challenge and it is global in nature. Think before you buy. Vote with your wallet.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Question for Roger about editing on 11/14/2013 16:07:28 MST Print View

Hi Katharina

> Craig wrote a post without anything offensive in it, just commenting about having
> had a post deleted.

How can I say this any more clearly? I am not talking about the first post.
Craig's second post contained unacceptable language.

The explanation I added to the second post referred to the contents of the second post.

I believe I made this point in every posting in this thread.

Cheers

Edited by rcaffin on 11/14/2013 16:10:18 MST.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: the bigger picture on 11/14/2013 16:45:07 MST Print View

"Maybe instead of talking about lowest base weight, we could compare how many (or few) slaves each of us employ inadvertently. I'm joking of course. Well, at least half-joking."

On first examination, this would seem to be a very good tool to inform our purchasing decisions, analagous to the environmental footprint. However, when viewed from ground level in, say, India or Nepal, things start to look a bit different, and the results sobering. Well intentioned efforts, of the kind that the road to hell is paved with, to crack down on practices that are abhorrent by Western standards may well result in a "slave" with at least a full belly and perhaps a couple of rupees to contribute to their family's survival being cast out on the street with only even less palatable options for staying alive. Anyone who has spent more than vacation time in that part of the world learns that Western values and logic have limited applicability. Better, IMO, for the righteous among us to focus their wrath and indignation on the numerous problems here at home threatening to rot our nation from within, including sweat shop labor and human trafficking.

Edited: As Roger C put it: Difficult.

Edited by ouzel on 11/14/2013 16:46:00 MST.

scree ride
(scree)
"slave" with at least a full belly and perhaps a couple of rupees to contribute to their family's survival on 11/14/2013 17:26:26 MST Print View

...and thus we excuse ourselves for our perpetuation. He is a rich man. He has many children. Many rupees.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: "slave" with at least a full belly and perhaps a couple of rupees to contribute to their family's survival on 11/14/2013 17:39:47 MST Print View

"...and thus we excuse ourselves for our perpetuation. He is a rich man. He has many children. Many rupees."

I'm probably a bit dense, but could you clarify this for me?

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Question for Roger about editing on 11/14/2013 17:40:46 MST Print View

Ok. My bad then for not getting this the first time around.
My apologies.



So Craig in his second post wrote that he used the F word. Just like I wrote it right now. That is now considered unacceptable on BPL.

Edited by Kat_P on 11/14/2013 18:01:15 MST.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Question for Roger about editing on 11/14/2013 18:02:13 MST Print View

Hi Kat

No worries.

Yes, we try to cater to minors and their parents as well. I'll ignore the suggestion that the internet-age kids have seen worse - probably quite true of course. But what else can I do?

Cheers

Edited by rcaffin on 11/14/2013 18:04:24 MST.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: the bigger picture on 11/14/2013 18:16:15 MST Print View

> Well intentioned efforts, of the kind that the road to hell is paved with,

Let me recount a (true) story.

Way back when transistors and integrated circuits were new and assembled by operators with a microscope and a micro-spot-welder, Motorola had a plant in Malaysia. They had rows and rows of girls doing the work every day (in clean room conditions). They were taken to task by some well-meaning Americans for the pitiful wages they were paying the girls (ladies). Their reply to this was illuminating.

Yes, they paid low wages - on an American scale.

But these girls had never had a job before. Any money their men earned was usually spent either on beer or on gold jewellry for the girl to wear - to enhance the man's status of course. Meanwhile, their children had little food, little clothing, no education, and no medical care. A self-perpetuating poverty loop.

So Motorola hired these girls and put their wages into a bank account in the girl's name only. The men did not even know what the girls were earning. The girls had this explained very carefully to them when they were hired. Yes, there were queues for the jobs.

With this money the girls (mothers) were able to feed and clothe their children, and get them schooling and medical attention. The poverty loop was broken.

Cheers

Valerie E
(Wildtowner) - M

Locale: Grand Canyon State
Re: Everything... on 11/14/2013 18:21:23 MST Print View

Sigh. I REALLY don't want to be all "Holden Caulfield" here, but...

Interesting that the fundamental principle of the Anglo-American justice system is being ignored by some people here -- who believe that the Chinese manufacturer is "guilty until proven innocent" of trademark infringement.

Now, to be honest, when I ordered the jacket I couldn't make out any logo in the listing photos (small laptop), so I was a bit surprised to see the Jack Wolfskin on the chest. I guess I'm a bit naïve, but my first thought was that this was either a factory over-run, or a factory run that was rejected by the contracting company (Jack Wolfskin). I guess I just don't think that the "Jack Wolfskin" brand is expensive or prestigious enough to merit counterfeiting (rampant for uber-luxury goods, such as Louis Vuitton, Chanel, etc.) Yeah, I know The North Face is counterfeited, but they are a world-wide "status" brand, regardless of widespread criticism of them on BPL. If I were a counterfeiter, I would make those same jackets and slap a Patagonia logo on them; then I could sell them on eBay for $40-$20 and make $38-$48 profit (aot selling them for $12 with a Wolfskin logo and making $10 profit). I'm think you're grossly underestimating the intelligence and business acumen of the Chinese clothing manufacturers, my friends! :~)

I support Roger 100% in his role, and I'm really dismayed at the bitter flavor of the criticism directed towards him. In fact, although I am still somewhat new to BPL, he seems to be quite laissez faire overall, and (bless him) often includes an element of humour in his postings. Mary Poppins was right: a spoonful of sugar DOES make the medicine go down!

I am heartened to see that some folks out there see the complexities involved in the global economy. We should all be thinking more about these issues and trying to put forward "best practices", while still understanding that our values may NOT be the only legitimate ones out there...The older I get (and I'm getting pretty old!) the more I realize that "black & white" thinking is simply irrelevant. If the issues were that simple, they'd've been solved a long time ago.

Respectfully, I propose that the ethics discussion be re-routed to "Chaff" where it really belongs, and I hope someone will set up a thread on this subject there.

And BTW, as a woman, if I HAD TO CHOOSE between a miserable factory job and working in the sex trade -- I'd take the factory EVERY time! The risks from lead/cloth dust seem laughable compared to the risks of violence/disease from men who think I'm less human than they are. Now THERE'S an issue that needs more action from the West!!!!!!

scree ride
(scree)
Re: Re: "slave" with at least a full belly and perhaps a couple of rupees to contribute to their family's survival on 11/14/2013 18:24:44 MST Print View

If I make my money off of cattle, I want a lot of cattle.
If you make money off of your children, you want a lot of children.

The system perpetuates itself while churning out an endless supply of land fill material.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: the bigger picture on 11/14/2013 18:34:52 MST Print View

.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 11/15/2013 07:27:39 MST.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the bigger picture on 11/14/2013 18:45:19 MST Print View

Deleted.

Edited by Kat_P on 11/14/2013 19:12:33 MST.

Rick M
(rmjapan) - F

Locale: Tokyo, Japan
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the bigger picture on 11/14/2013 18:47:47 MST Print View

Yes, exactly Ian. My comment was that price is so low for a "name" albeit European brand, makes me question it's origin. It very well could be real, but it also may have fallen off the back of a truck. Certainly the tag looks somewhat legit when compared to my Jack Wolfskin ski jacket tags. But my logo is on left, not right.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the bigger picture on 11/14/2013 18:51:04 MST Print View

.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 11/15/2013 07:24:38 MST.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the bigger picture on 11/14/2013 18:54:48 MST Print View

Edited

That cat better watch out


Fox

Edited by Kat_P on 11/14/2013 19:38:18 MST.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the bigger picture on 11/14/2013 18:55:26 MST Print View

.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 11/15/2013 07:25:22 MST.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the bigger picture on 11/14/2013 19:01:05 MST Print View

.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 11/15/2013 07:25:56 MST.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the bigger picture on 11/14/2013 19:06:43 MST Print View

Troubling cat. And shameless promotion of my picture .


Cat

Edited by Kat_P on 11/14/2013 19:40:21 MST.

John S.
(jshann) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the bigger picture on 11/14/2013 19:10:06 MST Print View

BPL = Bi Po Lar

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the bigger picture on 11/14/2013 19:10:53 MST Print View

I really think it's time to abort this thread, and I'm not just shooting from the hip here. There's definitely been a change in climate, and I'm not convinced that REI had anything to do with it. So it's time to move on, by God. (Did I get them all?)

Paul Magnanti
(PaulMags) - MLife

Locale: People's Republic of Boulder
Oy vey... on 11/14/2013 19:12:44 MST Print View

face palm

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the bigger picture on 11/14/2013 19:13:07 MST Print View

.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 11/15/2013 07:26:26 MST.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the bigger picture on 11/14/2013 19:14:12 MST Print View

Deleted.
Cat picture instead.



Cat

Edited by Kat_P on 11/14/2013 20:27:22 MST.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the bigger picture on 11/14/2013 19:23:56 MST Print View

.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 11/15/2013 07:27:01 MST.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: the bigger picture on 11/14/2013 19:33:00 MST Print View

"With this money the girls (mothers) were able to feed and clothe their children, and get them schooling and medical attention. The poverty loop was broken."

Makes the point quite well. There is a saying, Japanese in origin I believe but not entirely sure on this, that Americans see the world as they want it to be, whereas Asians see it as it is. Worth pondering? I personally believe that seeing the world as we want it to be can potentially lead to a better life for all of us, but that impulse needs to be tempered by a cold, hard appreciation of the world as it is, and not to confuse the two when it comes to taking action.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Everything... on 11/14/2013 19:38:26 MST Print View

"Now THERE'S an issue that needs more action from the West!!!!!!"

Now just a doggone minute there!!! :[ That sex trade you're badmouthing is the foundation of our multi billion dollar advertising industry. ;0) ;0) ;0)

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: "slave" with at least a full belly and perhaps a couple of rupees to contribute to their family's survival on 11/14/2013 19:41:58 MST Print View

"The system perpetuates itself while churning out an endless supply of land fill material."

Now that is an interesting perspective on the plight of people on the edge of survival. Children as landfill material, if I'm understanding you correctly. I'm at a loss for words.

Justin Baker
(justin_baker) - F

Locale: west coast best coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: "slave" with at least a full belly and perhaps a couple of rupees to contribute to their family's survival on 11/14/2013 19:48:33 MST Print View

Tom, I think he was referring to the massive amount of garbage generated when people buy disposable or throw-away items, including cheap outdoor clothing with a short lifespan. By buying high quality clothing, it lasts longer and you throw away less.

Edited by justin_baker on 11/14/2013 19:49:36 MST.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: the bigger picture on 11/14/2013 19:50:14 MST Print View

"I really think it's time to abort this thread, and I'm not just shooting from the hip here. There's definitely been a change in climate"

We've got enough censorship going on around here as it is. I propose that instead the moderator move it over to The Great Carbon Flame War, where Tallbloke can analyze it and determine whether or not it represents a troubling long term trend, or is just a BiPoLar short term oscillation.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "slave" with at least a full belly and perhaps a couple of rupees to contribute to their family's survival on 11/14/2013 19:56:04 MST Print View

"Tom, I think he was referring to the massive amount of garbage generated when people buy disposable or throw-away items, including cheap outdoor clothing with a short lifespan. By buying high quality clothing, it lasts longer and you throw away less."

Thanks for putting a positive slant on his post. Hopefully you're on the mark. I admit to a tendency to see the dark side of humanity at this point in my life. Guess I've been around too long, and maybe seen too much darkness. Time for the landfill? ;0)

And E
(LunchANDYnner) - M

Locale: Pacific Northwest
jacket on 11/14/2013 20:02:00 MST Print View

As Valerie said " I guess I'm a bit naïve, but my first thought was that this was either a factory over-run, or a factory run that was rejected by the contracting company (Jack Wolfskin)"

And I'm inclined to agree. If anybody will bother to check out the eBay listing, nowhere does it say that it's a Jack Wolfskin jacket, other than in logo in the picture. It's simply advertised as a wind jacket.

As many have mentioned, the logo is on the "wrong" side. This could have been the factories mistake, and the jackets they produced could have been rejected/canceled by Jack Wolfskin and they are selling it to make up the loss, while not explicitly advertising it as a Jack Wolfskin jacket.

Of course, they could be counterfeit as well, the point is, none of us know. But, at the price and the fact that they aren't trying to exploit the brand name in the listing makes it seem more likely that it's a overrun/canceled/mistake production.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "slave" with at least a full belly and perhaps a couple of rupees to contribute to their family's survival on 11/14/2013 20:03:39 MST Print View

"Time for the landfill? ;0)"

Might as well. You're a scrawny bugger, you'd be lousy eatin'.....

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "slave" with at least a full belly and perhaps a couple of rupees to contribute to their family's survival on 11/14/2013 20:16:59 MST Print View

"where Tallbloke can analyze it and determine whether or not it represents a troubling long term trend, or is just a BiPoLar short term oscillation."


Ime lately, over the last month or so, it's not just BPL and the folks here that are getting kind of reactive, over emotional, loopy, snappy, and/or snarky, but a general increasing trend that i've been noticing. Also have noticed more car accidents than usual (without extreme weather facilitating same), and more crazy driving in general. My wife and i got in a huge fight (very unusual) on Sunday, out of the blue, over really nothing (though, i don't think it helps that she was about to get her period--the next day).


The only thing that i can think of as a cause and correlation, is that the Sun has gone from unusually quiet for a Solar max/peak cycle, to rip roaring within the last month or so. It seems to have an affect on peoples mind and emotions to a noticeable extent. For myself, i can often tell when there is a significant event because often i will get super tired, run down, and sometimes even head achy (not prone to same in the least bit) seemingly completely out of the blue. So many times i have looked it up after, and saw that yes, there was a powerful event within that general time frame.

Preposterous you say..hmm, well there has been some statistical research on correlations between strong/intense solar/geomagnetic activity, and frequency of car accidents indicating that there does seem to be a correlation.

In short, people seem to get a bit fried and frazzled during strong solar and geomagnetic events, especially folks who are not well centered and balanced.

Edited by ArcturusBear on 11/14/2013 20:19:15 MST.

Corbin McFarlane
(raven15) - MLife
Chinese market? on 11/14/2013 20:21:22 MST Print View

I honestly think the jacket is legit, it seems like an example of an item of Real Chinese Clothing (Real Chinese Clothing, like Real Chinese Food or Real Green Tea, basically does not exist in the West). It could be a fire sale of a bad run of a genuine item at-cost as just mentioned (the weight and performance would tend to lean toward this), or it could be intended for the Chinese market. Clothing shops in China are full of similar things (in fact to me "Jack Wolf Skin" is exactly the kind of name the Chinese would think up for domestic sales, I was surprised to learn there is an actual Jack Wolf Skin somewhere else).

However, the price seems very good even for an item intended to be sold in China. It seems like a pretty good deal. The language on the tag will likely be a good indication of the intended market.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "slave" with at least a full belly and perhaps a couple of rupees to contribute to their family's survival on 11/14/2013 20:29:15 MST Print View

"Might as well. You're a scrawny bugger, you'd be lousy eatin'....."

Yup. That's probably the only thing that's kept me alive this long. You remember Wright Lakes Basin, where we camped our last night back in 2012? Coming over a rise, I ran smack into a pack of coyotes up there on a solo trip back in the early 80's. We both froze and stood there for a minute about 30 feet or so apart staring at each other. It occurred to me that if they were hungry, this might not end well for me. About that time the alpha, who had been cooly appraising me, wrinkled his nose, probably in disgust, gave a little "woof", and the pack sidled off to one side and continued on their way. I guess there's even something to be said for scrawny from a Darwinian perspective. ;)

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Everything... on 11/14/2013 20:48:34 MST Print View

"We should all be thinking more about these issues and trying to put forward "best practices", while still understanding that our values may NOT be the only legitimate ones out there..."

A huge +1

It has gone unnoticed by most Americans since the the nation's founding that there is other intelligent life on this planet, and that maybe, just maybe, they might have developed value systems that are every bit as legitimate as ours in their cultural/historical context. Our incessant attempts to impose our own on them has led to much needless suffering down thru the years, particularly in recent years, and is starting to result in blowback that we are so far ill disposed to process.

+1 also to your suggestion that this thread be moved to Chaff.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "slave" with at least a full belly and perhaps a couple of rupees to contribute to their family's survival on 11/14/2013 20:53:02 MST Print View

"Might as well. You're a scrawny bugger, you'd be lousy eatin'....."

If you ate more HFCS you wouldn't be so scrawny : )

Delmar O'Donnell
(Bolster)

Locale: Between Jacinto & Gorgonio
Projectile Moralism on 11/14/2013 20:53:05 MST Print View

Whew! I left this thread pages ago and look what you people do in my absence! Not sure why Roger took a drubbing for doing his job as a moderator, but then, a lot of this thread makes no sense to me. I definitely would not want to be a moderator here. You are subject to unsavory accusations and intense public interrogation for no reason other than doing your job.

"Projectile Moralism" is my diagnosis of why this thread got so sick. Get too close to some people, and they will barf their moral system all over you. We mistakenly stopped discussing the product, and started advocating our values, geopolitics, and ideologies. I take my share of the blame. I do appreciate that there's a consensus arising: That viewing the world from the narrow moral confines of an easy chair in the United States doesn't do justice to the realities of many of the world's citizens.

"Il faut cultiver notre jardin."

+2, move to chaff.

Edited by Bolster on 11/14/2013 20:58:05 MST.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Re: Everything... on 11/14/2013 20:54:36 MST Print View

Oh Great, this thread has even managed to spark the Great Cat Meme War to end all Cat Meme Wars.

I dread what comes next... can it get worse...

Images of dead horses come to mind for some reason.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Projectile Moralism on 11/14/2013 21:02:35 MST Print View

.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 11/15/2013 07:23:26 MST.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: "slave" with at least a full belly and perhaps a couple of rupees to contribute to their family's survival on 11/14/2013 21:05:47 MST Print View

"If you ate more HFCS you wouldn't be so scrawny"

Yeah, but I'd probably be dead, either of a heart attack or because those coyotes would have decided I was worth the trouble. ;)

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Projectile Moralism on 11/14/2013 21:07:34 MST Print View

"Il faut cultiver notre jardin."

Indeed.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Projectile Moralism on 11/14/2013 21:08:01 MST Print View

Okay, now I have to add Candide to my MP3 reading list.

and Star Trek????

Thank goodness for Google to translate all this Latin : )

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Re: Re: Everything... on 11/14/2013 21:17:42 MST Print View

No real point, neither debating nor logically outlined discourse rarely accomplishes much of anything, except to vent one's own spleen.

Edited by ArcturusBear on 11/14/2013 22:07:13 MST.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Projectile Moralism on 11/14/2013 21:18:48 MST Print View

.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 11/15/2013 07:23:59 MST.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F - M
thread on 11/14/2013 21:24:27 MST Print View

im actually VERY interested on how this windshirt performs

if this thread is moved, a new one should be started as a few other BPLers have ordered the windshirt as well

as for stuff that BPLers tend to look for in windshirts

- light weight ... 2.3 oz ... check
- hooded ... check
- passes darth vader breath test ... check
- seems to have good initial DWR ... check
- low price .. check

the ONLY stated "issue" is that its made in china and the possibly "counterfeit" ...

if you go through your gear lists, how many other items do you think are made in china? ... for example montbell doesnt have anything about factory conditions or social responsibility on their website, and they have gear made in china ... yet no one here bats an eye buying it ...

as to counterfeit ... im quite sure most people here "illegally" download music and movies or have younger family members that do ...

i have AZN relatives come back from china/HK who bought a whole bunch of fake TNF fleeces and softshells, they got them for 10-20$ and they work just fine for their uses

we should rejoice if this jacket is found to be as functional as the $$$$ branded ones ...

it would mean

- you get so spend more money on gas for going out on trips
- you could wear something you dont feel the need to baby and could destroy bushwhacking/climbing, and get another one
- it would lower the cost of entry to outdoor activities ... it means that people who have lesser disposable income, kids in the scouts, etc ... could all have a functional windshirt that is truly UL

lets find out how well this thing actually works

;)

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Faux-dini": 2.3 oz. Windshirt, <$15 - Initial Review and Sourcing on 11/14/2013 21:28:23 MST Print View

For my own amusement, I would like to see a close up of that logo*...
Just to fill in those that have commented on the brand, there are over 600 Jack Wolfskin shops around the world and no it isn't a cheap brand.
*it just happens that Jack Wolfskin are pretty particular about the usage of their paw print not just the name

And E
(LunchANDYnner) - M

Locale: Pacific Northwest
logo on 11/14/2013 21:58:54 MST Print View

Franco, what interests me is that the listing doesn't advertise the fact that it's Jack Wolf Skin anywhere, other than that picture. If you look at the picture showing off all the colors, those don't even have a logo.

I'd think that if a company was trying to sell counterfeit items, they'd try to draw customers by advertising the jacket as being a particular brand. If not, what would be the point. Doing a search for Jack Wolf windshirt wouldn't bring up their listing, and even if somebody was searching for a windshirt, at first glance, one wouldn't even notice the Jack Wolf Skin brand/logo.

I'll post clearer pictures of the logo and tags when I get mine unless somebody else gets to it first. If it does end up looking counterfeit, we can notify eBay and have them look into it.

zorobabel frankenstein
(zorobabel) - F

Locale: SoCal
Price has gone up on 11/14/2013 22:13:24 MST Print View

The windshirt is now $14.88 + $2.42 shipping.

I didn't get to order one at the lower price. I blame the loonatics that ruined this thread.

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Faux-dini": 2.3 oz. Windshirt, <$15 - Initial Review and Sourcing on 11/14/2013 22:18:27 MST Print View

And E
Do you think that someone selling a Columbia or MH jacket would not advertise the brand if indeed it was a genuine item ?
AGAIN Jack Wolfskin is a rather expensive brand not a generic label....

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Price has gone up on 11/14/2013 22:23:11 MST Print View

More likely due to the sudden spike in sales when everyone and their sibling on BPL started to order 1, 2, 3, or more.

Only going to show that bad press, is better than no press.

Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
Re: Re: Price has gone up on 11/14/2013 22:38:38 MST Print View

Holy crap,

You guys have too much time on your hands.

Must be winter time...

Delmar O'Donnell
(Bolster)

Locale: Between Jacinto & Gorgonio
Talking to me? on 11/14/2013 22:45:17 MST Print View

Justin...? You had written a long post directed at me, and now it's gone?

OK, I'll remove my reply, and spare the rest of the forum who must be dead tired of this thread. But I haven't changed my mind on value-laden moral sermons being inappropriate and misplaced on what is essentially a recreational skill forum. (Yes, I realize the irony of this post, so am keeping it short.) At the same time, Justin, please keep up with your very informative on-topic BPL posts, I enjoy them. You're a wealth of knowledge.

Can you imagine the puzzlement at Cnfocus? They've got to be saying: "What in the world is going on? Why are we getting a huge spike in sales on this one jacket? Quick, raise the price before these Gweilos deplete our stock! "

Shucks, Valerie, you should be paid a dividend for your post! Nothing sells like controversy.

Edited by Bolster on 11/14/2013 23:16:28 MST.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Talking to me? on 11/14/2013 23:13:48 MST Print View

To Delmar,

It might be hard to believe from certain vantage points, but i DO make a definite effort to try to keep my spirituality and philosophical side toned down here--considering it's my primary focus in life, and is much more important to me than gear, etc..i think i do an "ok" job at doing that. It occasionally slips out, but rarely in any long winded, overly involved, preachy posts, and most of that which has the former attributes has been in chaff, and really i don't even post that much in chaff. Seriously, if you read ALL my posts, you would see that i primarily focus on the parameters of the forums i'm engaged in. My initial post which apparently initiated or facilitated this firestorm of controversy, etc, was an extremely brief and extremely generalized and impersonal one.


Mainly, i'm upset by the amount of suffering in this world. It has it's place as a teacher, but it would be nice if things could improve more. It's one thing to intellectually be bothered by it (as i'm sure many are to some extent), but it's a totally other thing to acutely FEEL it at times (i've sort of been like the main character in the movie "Powder" in that sense for most of my life, and often treated similarly by my peers since kindergarten, as if i was an alien that did not belong here)

I believe the best way to improve things, is by being a positive example, and that is something i try to focus on doing here, there, and everywhere. However, it's rather hard to do on a forum without some mentioning of ones deeper ideals, wishes, experiences etc.

In person, i don't talk much at all, and certainly rarely talk much about my beliefs, deeper experiences, etc, (unless people ask questions). I try to let my vibe and example do the talking primarily. Again, it's rather hard to communicate in that way on a forum, and unlike MANY people, i only see preaching as "bad" or distasteful, when it totally deafens most others to one's words, but the old saying is also very true, often it's only those with ears to hear and eyes to see who will be the ones who listen and get it anyways.

So, stuck between a rock and a hard place, as per usual.

Sometimes i am tempted to the extremely apathetic and thinking there is no point at all in trying to help anything because the huge majority of people just do not seem to want to change this world for the better because it would involve such brutal self honesty, such self change, such dedication, such self sacrifice, that it's downright scary for most to even attempt to think about, let alone deeply ponder or try to enact. The price of responsibility is a heavy one, and the more aware you become, the heavier that weight.

I think i need a BPL abstinence or vacation for awhile.

Delmar O'Donnell
(Bolster)

Locale: Between Jacinto & Gorgonio
Appreciate. on 11/14/2013 23:17:58 MST Print View

For the record, Justin, I carefully read and appreciate your backpacking posts. You've taught me a lot about backpacking. My thanks for that.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Appreciate. on 11/14/2013 23:23:59 MST Print View

As i appreciate your voice, many voices here, and the general BPL community and vibe. For such a diverse and prolific crowd, there certainly is a much greater harmony here than meets the eye (despite the occasional squabbling). Generally speaking, it's an unusually helpful, open minded, and sharing community.

I've learned a lot and continue to learn from many folks here about backpacking, gear, etc, and some about life in general.

And i will always be grateful and appreciative

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Talking to me? on 11/14/2013 23:25:42 MST Print View

.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 11/15/2013 07:22:50 MST.

scree ride
(scree)
recreational slavery on 11/15/2013 05:00:16 MST Print View

I took a bus tour myself, then I stayed at a Holiday Inn. I know all about American misconceptions. We should never, ever let the plights of others get in the way of our entertainment. Especially when we don't even have to make up our own excuses. We're not exploiting kids, we're feeding the hungry.

My apologies to Valerie. I don't mean to imply that this is a bad product. As with everything, the reviews will tell. At some point it probably was or still is licensed under Jack Wolfskin. My comments would apply to my Korean made stove as well as my American made pack. The resulting discussion has absolutely nothing to do with you or your original post. It was really nice of you to share and I hope you do again.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
It's a fake on 11/15/2013 07:09:12 MST Print View

I sent the ebay link to Jack Wolfskin to see if this was a legitimate product or not. Here is their response:

Dear Ian,

Many thanks for your mail and the interest in our company.

This jacket is an fake. Our logo is never on the right chest.

You could visit one of our British dealers on either www.cotswoldoutdoor.com or www.blacks.co.uk, if you wish to purchase anything. They offer an extended JACK WOLFSKIN range and also do shipping overseas. You will be able to find the exact costs for postage / shipping on their homepage.

We hope that this information is of any help to you. Do not hesitate to contact us in case of further questions.

Best regards

Ines Wiegand
Endverbraucherkommunikation

JACK WOLFSKIN
Ausrüstung für Draussen GmbH & Co. KGaA

Jack Wolfskin Kreisel 1· D-65510 Idstein/Ts., Germany ·www.jack-wolfskin.com
Phone: +49 6126 954 0· Fax: +49 6126 954 158·info@jack-wolfskin.com

Edited by IDBLOOM on 11/15/2013 07:10:06 MST.

D S
(smoke) - F
I really wish - on 11/15/2013 07:16:44 MST Print View

I really wish you guys would take your "let's save the world from itself" discussion somewhere else.

I came here to find out about the performance and sizing of this windshirt, not all this extraneous stuff.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Intellectual Property Rights on 11/15/2013 07:17:56 MST Print View

http://www.ice.gov/news/library/factsheets/ipr.htm

To report:

Contact the IPR Center
Website: www.iprcenter.gov
Email: IPRCenter@dhs.gov
Report IP Theft: http://www.iprcenter.gov/referral/
Mail: National IPR Coordination Center
2451 Crystal Drive, STOP 5105
Arlington, VA 20598-5105
Telephone: 1-866-IPR-2060

Edited by IDBLOOM on 11/15/2013 07:18:30 MST.

Jon Leibowitz
(jleeb) - F - MLife

Locale: 4Corners
Re: "Faux-dini": 2.3 oz. Windshirt, <$15 - Initial Review and Sourcing on 11/15/2013 09:00:46 MST Print View

Thanks to this thread the shirt is now 17 bucks! haha.

Well, I just ordered one. I wear a medium and got a XL.

I'll post impressions when I get it in another thread that is not crazytown.

Edited by jleeb on 11/15/2013 09:16:12 MST.

scree ride
(scree)
candy on 11/15/2013 11:34:01 MST Print View

I better hide my candy.

Delmar O'Donnell
(Bolster)

Locale: Between Jacinto & Gorgonio
IP and the East on 11/15/2013 11:42:42 MST Print View

Normally I'd apologize for being OT, but this thread is long ago cooked, so here goes:

Intellectual property (IP) is a western concept. As a westerner, I "get" it. (Our own cultures always seem to make more ‘sense’ than foreign cultures.) But the concept of IP is confusing to many people in eastern cultures, who can’t understand how anybody can “own” an idea. It just doesn’t compute for them.

Here in the United States, for example, a certain company “owns” a certain shade of red that only they may use to advertise and sell their products. Chinese manufacturers think that’s the silliest thing in the world--to them it’s like saying you “own” the sun or the moon. You can argue all day long about the investment it takes to build a brand name, and how using that brand name is “stealing,” and it just doesn’t compute for the vast majority of easterners I’ve discussed the issue with. It’s a design, an idea, it’s letters in an alphabet, a graphic, not an actual physical item that can be stolen, is their view. Different world view, different morality.

Same phenomenon in academia. Chinese students are known to plagiarize more than, say, Euro or NA students. Western professors catch them and punish them severely for it. “What did I do wrong?” they wonder in honest puzzlement, not grasping the concept of what plagiarism is. “It’s an idea, it’s words, how can you steal an idea or words? I am honoring these thoughts by repeating them, not stealing them!” Different world view, different morality.

Then they’ll observe how terribly we treat our own parents, and consider us to be highly unethical people. Or they'll be disgusted how unhygenic we are when using the toilet. Different world view, different morality.

That’s why I use the term “Projectile Moralism.” Many of us westerners think our morality is the ONLY acceptable morality, and seek to move heaven and earth to make sure the rest of the world falls in line with ours. It makes us feel good -- feeling smugly self righteous is a good feeling, it's validating, we're saving the earth, etc. We feel good when we've successfully forced our world view on those-- those unenlightened people who live over there.

There are many, many brands of morality on earth. Western “media headline” style morality is but one of them. Travel the world a bit, and you start to understand why the rest of the world thinks we’re so pushy and offensive (speaking as an American, here). It has to be our way or the highway. Accept our morality, or you are evil.

It’s just like Tom said: “…maybe, just maybe, they might have developed value systems that are every bit as legitimate as ours in their cultural/historical context. Our incessant attempts to impose our own on them has led to much needless suffering down thru the years…”

Edited by Bolster on 11/15/2013 11:48:42 MST.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: IP and the East on 11/15/2013 13:48:22 MST Print View

Vacation hasn't started yet apparently.

Just wanted to say this in relation to Delmar's last post.

I call B.S. There is some truth to that in a broad sense, but Chinese businessmen certainly know the difference between utilizing or recreating an idea in a general way (say like using a specific combo of merino and polypropylene for specific purposes that another company pioneered), and purposely using a name brand logo in order to fool people to think that they are buying a certain name brand with the motive of profit. That is outright deception in ANY culture.

They understand western culture perhaps better than you think they do, and money and profit is THE universal language in this sad, dark world.

I have traveled the world enough to know that while there are certainly cultural differences between different peoples, but since we're all human, we're still basically more similar than different at the end of the day. Plenty of world wide studies on core psychology strongly suggest that.

And just because something is part of someone's culture, doesn't make it innately sacred, right, acceptable, or ok to agree with or support. Take female genital mutilation in Africa. It may be my western ignorance on my part, but never in a million years will i agree with such practice, never will i support it, and always i would speak against it.

Also, there is a big difference between distanced tolerance of another's cultural practice and outright support that perpetuates, especially in the monetary sense which seems to influence or effect more than anything nowadays. I'm not free of that support, i don't even know how to completely free myself of that besides going out into the wilderness and trying to live a completely sustainable, cut off from civilization lifestyle.

Edited by ArcturusBear on 11/15/2013 13:54:45 MST.

Jon Leibowitz
(jleeb) - F - MLife

Locale: 4Corners
I'm sorry on 11/15/2013 14:14:03 MST Print View

I'm sorry to add oxygen to this fire....but do people here really think there is any difference whatsoever between this shirt and any other windshirt made anywhere in China, India, Malaysia, etc.? What is the difference between this 10 dollar shirt and a $130 windshirt from Montbell...or anything made by REI, or NorthFace, or Brooks, or La Sportiva....? Nothing other than a brand name. NOTHING at all. You're $130 montbell windshirt actually cost about 3 dollars to make just like this one...and the pour soul making your shirt got paid the same shitty wage no matter how much you got ripped off for it.

Has anybody on BPL not purchased a montbell product here because of horrid labor conditions in China? I doubt it. Does anybody here actually know with certainty that a word MEC or Patagonia peddles to us is true about their labor practices other than what is said in their marketing materials? I certainly have never been to a factory in China making Patagonia clothing and I doubt not a single one of you have either.

Apple Computer has gone more out of the way than practically any other American company that exists today to try and guarantee their factories (electronic vs garment, I know)are meeting fair labor standards and even with threats to cut off supply chains and constant audits, Apple still finds egregious labor law violations on a constant basis.

It's the unfortunate nature of outsourcing and unless you purchase 100% American made gear, it's all the same crap made by underpaid folks living under the same horrible labor standards.

I'm not hear saying you shouldn't care or try to make the world a better place but I am saying that this windshirt is no different than any other windshirt you may buy. The fact that it's 10 bucks simply makes it closer to the reality of what it costs to produce.

Delmar O'Donnell
(Bolster)

Locale: Between Jacinto & Gorgonio
You're calling what? on 11/15/2013 14:31:48 MST Print View

Justin, I call BS on your BS of calling my BS, BS. :-)

Your reply is entirely culture-bound. You'll score points, maybe, with other westerners, but many easterners would disagree with your perspective. Don't let your insistence that the world conform to your own moral system, spill over into Moral Imperialism. The "sad, dark" world is not as broken as you think it is, nor breathlessly waiting for you to fix it. But if you disagree, then spend your energies on actually doing something, rather than wasting your talents writing rebuttals on an internet forum. Neither you nor I are changing anybody's mind about anything; we're just irritating people at this point. And I think I'll go waste my time on something else for awhile.

"You are young, my son, and, as the years go by, time will change and even reverse many of your present opinions. Refrain therefore awhile from setting yourself up as a judge of the highest matters." -- Plato, Dialogues

Edited by Bolster on 11/15/2013 14:35:04 MST.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: It's a fake on 11/15/2013 14:51:24 MST Print View

I find the response from Jack Wolfskin interesting - more for what they did not say than anything they said.

Reading between the lines, I would guess that they knew all about the fakes and the eBay vendors, and a) knew they could do nothing about them, and b) were not greatly fussed anyhow.

Why this conclusion? They seemed mainly interested in pointing Ian to their retail outlets, not in doing anything about the eBay vendors. It looked like a boilerplate response.

My understanding, from talking to Westerners who live in China and do business in China, is that they do not have or even understand the concept of Intellectual Property, nor do they have any concept of a legally binding agreement or a contract. It drives Westerners crazy, trying to do businesss there in a Western manner.

Cheers
PS: Personally, I think this thread has some merit in the Gear channel, as it does inform our buying decisions.

scree ride
(scree)
There is a difference on 11/15/2013 15:18:03 MST Print View

It has a name on it.
While it may be acceptable in other cultures to present myself as somebody else, (and somehow I doubt it), it is not here and right, wrong or indifferent, those are the standards that we live by. That is our culture.

Jon Leibowitz
(jleeb) - F - MLife

Locale: 4Corners
Re: There is a difference on 11/15/2013 15:48:39 MST Print View

So are we talking about the morals of ripping off a corporation (Wolf Skin or whatever they are called) or the morals of essentially supporting slave labor? If it wasn't mislabeled, would it make it more OK to buy it?

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: Re: It's a fake on 11/15/2013 15:50:48 MST Print View

Roger said, "Reading between the lines, I would guess that they knew all about the fakes and the eBay vendors, and a) knew they could do nothing about them, and b) were not greatly fussed anyhow."

Any manufacturer can contact eBay and have counterfeit merchandise removed, after eBay got sued into the Stone Age over Louis Vuitton luggage a few years back. On the other hand, if it's not brought to their attention, this stuff slides under the radar. Keep in mind they are handling many millions of items (and they make a profit by all of them). Note that the logo is legible, but not mentioned in the listing, so you won't catch it on a search. This sort of thing is common with pocket knives, where they show a photo of an expensive knife with the logo well displayed. What you get is a cheap copy and the name isn't mentioned. They are playing on our own greed and wanting something for nothing.

The Chinese aren't alone in this by any means. You can find knock offs all over SE Asia and they are sent all over the world. I don't completely buy the cultural excuse, but I can see your point. The Taliban has cultural differences too, but I'm not buying that either!

Jon Leibowitz
(jleeb) - F - MLife

Locale: 4Corners
Re: Re: Re: It's a fake on 11/15/2013 16:15:01 MST Print View

Good point about the Taliban. Moral relativism only goes so far. But when you go down that road, you have to ask yourself....are there some morals which are universal? One could probably soundly argue that not murdering people and not raping/beating women for trying to go to school are universally accepted morals....on the other hand it's pretty darn hard to argue that intellectual property rights is a universal moral :)

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: It's a fake on 11/15/2013 16:22:45 MST Print View

"The Taliban has cultural differences too, but I'm not buying that either!"

Nor are they trying to sell you their culture. What they ARE selling us is a one way ticket out of their country, so they can get back to living according to their own values, whatever you may think of them. They're not trying to sell us windshirts, either, so I don't know why they got brought into the conversation. ;0)

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: It's a fake on 11/15/2013 16:40:16 MST Print View

Copyright infringement isn't comparable to murder, BUT, these factories are bound up in corrupted officials, abused workers, pollution, theft of materials and patterns, etc. You really are buying into a whole quagmire of issues and you don't know how far it goes. As with illegal drug sales, you can toss out all the issues with the drugs themselves, and you are still left with the criminal enterprise that profits by it.

I do know that the practice is illegal in the US and punishable. Gauging by the penalties listed below, the citizens of this country take the matter seriously. Whether you feel that copyright infringement is immoral, it is without a doubt considered a criminal act. If you knowingly buy such merchandise, you are taking part of the crime, just like downloading pirated music.

"Copyright infringement is the act of exercising, without permission or legal authority, one or more of the exclusive rights granted to the copyright owner under section 106 of the Copyright Act (Title 17 of the United States Code). These rights include the right to reproduce or distribute a copyrighted work. In the file-sharing context, downloading or uploading substantial parts of a copyrighted work without authority constitutes an infringement.

Penalties for copyright infringement include civil and criminal penalties. In general, anyone found liable for civil copyright infringement may be ordered to pay either actual damages or "statutory" damages affixed at not less than $750 and not more than $30,000 per work infringed. For "willful" infringement, a court may award up to $150,000 per work infringed. A court can, in its discretion, also assess costs and attorneys' fees. For details, see Title 17, United States Code, Sections 504, 505.

Willful copyright infringement can also result in criminal penalties, including imprisonment of up to five years and fines of up to $250,000 per offense."

scree ride
(scree)
Re: Re: There is a difference on 11/15/2013 17:21:33 MST Print View

Mislabeled or sleazy business practices?

michael levi
(M.L) - F

Locale: W-Never Eat Soggy (W)affles
re on 11/15/2013 17:28:00 MST Print View

this shirt is light and cheap, i have a montbell tachyon already though.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Re: It's a fake on 11/15/2013 18:01:15 MST Print View

> One could probably soundly argue that not murdering people and not raping/beating
> women for trying to go to school are universally accepted morals

But one would be certainly wrong. Not universally, for sure (been off-planet recently?), and not even globally.

Murder over an 'affair of honour' (however you may define that) is still quite 'legal' in many countries, especially the Middle East. As for women trying to go to school - definitely punishable by execution in some countries.

For that matter, duelling was accepted in America at least into the 1840s. "In 1838 former governor of South Carolina John Lyde Wilson published The Code of Honor; or Rules for the Government of Principals and Seconds in Dueling." Note that this acknowledged that a fatal shot was possible and acceptable, and happened in perhaps 20% of duels. Andrew Jackson boasted of fighting at least 14 duels.

What are morals anyhow? They are just the accepted norms of behaviour within a culture. There are no absolutes anywhere.

Cheers

Edited by rcaffin on 11/15/2013 18:04:54 MST.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: It's a fake on 11/15/2013 18:20:05 MST Print View

"What are morals anyhow? They are just the accepted norms of behaviour within a culture. There are no absolutes anywhere."

Maybe 150 years from now, having wars like we do today will seem as immoral as slavery 150 years ago seems today

Not to mention dumping CO2 into the atmosphere with abandon

(seeing as this thread as already gone far astray from the original post : )

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
The almighty BPL moral code on 11/15/2013 19:31:25 MST Print View

The one thing that I've really come to love about BPL is that this is a community of thinkers. Deep, deep, deep... thinkers. What are morals really? Do we really need words like right and wrong?

So you want to throw a little acid on a girl to prevent her from going to school. Who am I with my dang western eyes to pass judgment on you? Young lady, we'll just call those scars badges of cultural diversity.

The extinction of the western black rhino... yesterday I thought that this was a bad thing but now I'm not so sure. I now find some comfort knowing that while this beast is no more, poachers.... excuse me (too harsh).... benevolent traditional Chinese medicine hunters were able provide bazillions of Chinese with rhino horn because who am I to judge them?

Laws? Sheesh! What in the world have I been thinking?!? It's just a little federal law.. barely a felony. If you weren't looking really close, you'd almost miss it. More of a guideline really.. except technically a crime (air quotes).

So counterfeit goods are sometimes used to fund terror and criminal organizations... do those terms really mean anything anymore? You know what they say... what you call a lunatic blowing up buses in the middle east based on your judgmental code is an misunderstood explosion artist to others (you judgmental fool you!)

So what if the reputation of a business is tarnished when a backpack spontaneously falls apart at a trailhead, medicine contains a sub therapeutic amount of product, kid gets lead poisoning from her Thomas the Train, garment catches fire at a party… the critical thing here is that you saved money and weren’t judgmental!

Why, you can probably buy your moral code at Walmart on sale!

So congratulations BPLers! Stay nice and warm in your counterfeit wind shirt while casting stones at the real villains like dastardly cottage industry folks offering gear in exchange for TGO votes.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: It's a fake on 11/15/2013 20:09:44 MST Print View

"But one would be certainly wrong. Not universally, for sure (been off-planet recently?), and not even globally.

+1

"What are morals anyhow? They are just the accepted norms of behaviour within a culture. There are no absolutes anywhere."

A timeless truth that we just can't seem to wrap our heads around, no matter how much blood and treasure is spent. The values of long surviving cultures have generally selected for survival of the culture in a particular historical context, as incomprehensible and abhorrent as they may seem to us. Lord knows we have enough problems here at home that reflect on our morality to keep us busy for generations. Why not start here and save our smug sense of moral superiority for that far off time when our own house is tidied up? We're not going to force them to adopt our morals in any case. That much should be clear by now.

"One could probably soundly argue that not murdering people and not raping/beating
women for trying to go to school are universally accepted morals"

One could also argue that we are partially responsible for the mayhem by trying to cram Western style education down the throats of a people to whom it is an alien concept, while simultaneously engaged in a war with them.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: The almighty BPL moral code on 11/15/2013 20:28:38 MST Print View

"The one thing that I've really come to love about BPL is that this is a community of thinkers. Deep, deep, deep... thinkers. What are morals really? Do we really need words like right and wrong?"

I feel your pain, Ian. I'd probably feel it even deeper if you could see fit to ponder how far we've gone astray here at home and direct some of your righteous rage inward, where it might do some good. The world is a very big, rough and tumble place full of all sorts of people who don't agree with each other on how to behave, i.e. the meaning of right and wrong. We've had quite a go at sorting the world out over the past 50 or so years and, as near as I can tell, precious little to show for our prodigious expenditure of blood and treasure. Meanwhile, if you can believe government statistics, something like 10% of our kids go to bed hungry every night
while our politicians take a meat ax to food stamps while preserving agricultural subsidies for the wealthy, our infrastructure crumbles, our freedoms are slowly disappearing, drug use is rampant, our prisons inhumane and overflowing(4th Amendment stuff according to the Supreme Court in a recent California case), lordy I could go on, but I think this is enough to make my point. Don't get me wrong, I find all sorts of behavior in various parts to of the world repugnant by my own code, and I've seen some pretty nasty characters/behavior up close, but I also realize that in the long run we can do very little to change it at any acceptable cost; and that as long as our own house is a mess, our moral pronouncements ring hollow in the ears of many who do not share them. Better to deal with problems we have a chance of solving, IMO.

Edited to clean up.

Edited by ouzel on 11/15/2013 20:35:29 MST.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: You're calling what? on 11/16/2013 08:35:14 MST Print View

DOD "The "sad, dark" world is not as broken as you think it is, nor breathlessly waiting for you to fix it."

You're right, its waiting for us, the collective to fix it, and its going to take a majority of people united.

DOD "But if you disagree, then spend your energies on actually doing something, rather than wasting your talents writing rebuttals on an internet forum."

Voting with ones wallet seems to be one of the more effective ways to affect change I think and because of this thread I've resolved to be more consistently conscious and concerned with this process. Talking openly about it on a public forum that many read is also a start, though I agree that it probably should have been brought up in another section of the forum.

DOD "Neither you nor I are changing anybody's mind about anything; we're just irritating people at this point."

You're probably right there. But as far as people being irritated, I say GOOD, this should not be an easy, comfortable and feel good issue or conversation. A man of peace that I greatly admire once said, " I come not to bring peace, but a sword". Sometimes you need to stir up the shadow side of people and society, which invariably leads to conflict of some sort, to affect change.

Perhaps you and others would join me in a think tank of how to affect positive change besides voting with ones wallet and open discussion, because I do feel a bit stuck on ideas to implement.

Edited by ArcturusBear on 11/16/2013 08:37:34 MST.

Ed Biermann
(longstride) - F
Re: "Faux-dini": 2.3 oz. Windshirt, <$15 - Initial Review and Sourcing on 11/16/2013 08:55:51 MST Print View

Will there be Cliff Notes available for this thread on the points relevant to the wind shirt's performance and fit?

Changing the global conscience on a backpacking website seems like a folly. You efforts could be utilized elsewhere.

Mahatma Gandhi — 'Be the change that you wish to see in the world.'

The Golden Rule - “So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them,

If everyone would follow these, we would all be better off. Who can't remember and follow two such simple rules? Though I admit that the Golden Rule is somewhat subjective. Some people are into some weird stuff.

Still waiting for a wind shirt with hand pockets. No chest pocket. In tall sizes too.

Link .
(annapurna) - MLife
Re: Re: "Faux-dini": 2.3 oz. Windshirt, <$15 - Initial Review and Sourcing on 11/16/2013 09:07:47 MST Print View

Ed, Then you wanted an Eddie Bauer Sirocco ,it has two hand pockets no chest pockets and Eddie Bauer sells tall sizes and were on sale last year for $25 but I don't know when they will be back.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: "Faux-dini": 2.3 oz. Windshirt, <$15 - Initial Review and Sourcing on 11/16/2013 09:09:20 MST Print View

Faux-dini, terrorism and Gandhi are heading over to Chaff.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: "Faux-dini": 2.3 oz. Windshirt, <$15 - Initial Review and Sourcing on 11/16/2013 09:14:02 MST Print View

I thought that it was decided to put chaff in forums that people see when you click "recent posts" or "recent threads"? : )

Interesting how there are occasional posts related to the original post intermingled with chaff posts

Ed Biermann
(longstride) - F
Re: "Faux-dini": 2.3 oz. Windshirt, <$15 - Initial Review and Sourcing on 11/16/2013 09:14:03 MST Print View

Thanks Link. Anything available without a hood? Or at least a hood that stores away? In muted colors? It can't be just me.

Rusty Beaver
(rustyb) - F

Locale: Rocky Mountains
Re: Re: You're calling what? on 11/16/2013 09:28:30 MST Print View

"Perhaps you and others would join me in a think tank of how to affect positive change besides voting with ones wallet and open discussion, because I do feel a bit stuck on ideas to implement".

Hey Justin,

I've appreciated some of your posts here...as well as some from other posters too.

Re "how to affect positive change besides voting with ones wallet"? There's a super simple way...but it's terribly unpopular: Stop consuming...or more accurately put, stop consuming like a wildfire. I hear/read all the justifications of why people need this or that (I do it myself) when in reality, they simply want...to fulfill a part of their ego. It feels good to get something new. It makes us happy for a short time and then we need to do it again, and again and again. Eckhart Tolle explains this really well in "A New Earth".

I satisfy those "needs" by shopping at thrift stores and modifying stuff if it doesn't suit/fit me. I repair stuff rather than getting rid of it. I make stuff. I do all this not only to satisfy my ego but because I thoroughly enjoy working with my hands....and I do it because of my personal convictions, not because I'm silly enough to believe that I alone am going to make a big difference. What kind of person would I be if I just talked about it on Internet forums? Not a genuine one. What kind of person would I be if I turned a blind eye to the worlds issues?

I cross this philosophy over into all aspects of my life (I can explain if anyone wants)...but I'm careful not to use the terms "green", "sustainable", etc. Those are trends. I prefer to use the term "practical" instead...because that's what this is: being practical. It's not a popularity contest, a rah rah football game, or a fashion show.

Sat morning soapbox'n.....

Edited by rustyb on 11/16/2013 11:47:57 MST.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: The almighty BPL moral code on 11/16/2013 14:08:27 MST Print View

Yeah, we've done some pretty nasty things abroad - not so much to enforce our moral code on others but really to ensure wealth for our 1 percenters. But, as with everything, nothing is black and white. Enforcing our 'western moral code' on others has also helped to end apartheid, is helping to combat human trafficking and the child sex trade, and helping to combat some other repugnant practices in other countries. And, I'll admit, I'm quite alright with that, regardless of whether the 'locals' are quite fine with their own moral code.

I also agree, completely, with the need to turn our holier-than-thou eyes inward - because there's an awful lot of repugnant practices still going on in this country. I just don't agree that we have to fix everything here before we pay any attention to other things elsewhere.

Valerie E
(Wildtowner) - M

Locale: Grand Canyon State
The International Fashion Industry & A Just Society on 11/16/2013 14:22:08 MST Print View

1. A few words on how the Fashion Industry works:

How “leftovers” [of factory runs] should be disposed of varies by contracts, according to Susan Scafidi, a law professor at the Fashion Law Institute of Fordham University. “Some trademark holders insist that they be destroyed, some allow them to be sold within a specific geographic area, others, less concerned with exclusivity and scarcity, will allow the products to be sold,” Scafidi said. ...Obviously, it can be a touchy subject for retailers. Forever 21, for example, declined to comment on the practice, and J.Crew didn't provide an immediate comment.

Apart from contract issues, selling overruns with labels or displaying the brands is more serious offense—it can be seen as a violation of a company's trademark. As a result, VENDORS ARE ASKED NOT TO MENTION THE BRANDS, AND TO EITHER CUT THE LABELS OFF OR CONCEAL THEM IN PICTURES. [Emphasis added] By minimizing the involvement with the brand, the matter is made a lot easier as fashion designs are rarely protected, at least in China and the US, according to Scafidi.

Note that, in the eBay listing, the brand name is not mentioned, nor is the logo very clear in the majority of photos. (Using a small laptop, I didn't even see it when I ordered the garment.)

2. Legal vs. Grey Areas

[From "The Economic Impact of Counterfeiting", by the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development, 1998, http://www.oecd.org/sti/ind/2090589.pdf ]

A number of activities, such as parallel trading and factory over-runs, are treated as counterfeiting by trademark owners but not by enforcement agencies.

“Parallel trading” refers to situations where products are legitimately bought in one territory and diverted for sale to another territory without the consent of the right holder in the receiving territory. [aka "grey marketing]

A related problem for trademark owners is the unauthorised production by legitimate suppliers. In some sectors, such as toys and spare parts, it has become the practice for suppliers to produce “over-runs” – extra quantities of products which they do not account for – and sell them on the black market. THE TRADEMARK OWNER AGAIN CONSIDERS THE GOODS TO BE COUNTERFEITS BUT FINDS IT DIFFICULT TO TAKE ACTION. COURTS AND ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES TREAT OVER-RUNS AS A BREACH OF CONTRACT RATHER THAN AS A TRADEMARK INFRINGEMENT. [Emphasis added]

Maybe this accounts for the VERY strange response that Ian B got from Jack Wolfskin ("It's an [sic] fake.", go to our website and buy our stuff.) Very odd, indeed, as a reaction to being ostensibly told that someone is committing an international crime, where you're the victim!

Edited to add: Those of you unfamiliar with the clothing industry probably don't know that for each "collection" (think NF's 2013 Fall line), a large number of sample styles are created. Many of these pieces will NOT end up in the collection; some will end up in the brand's outlet stores; others will just be put aside. I bought a "legitimate" MH women's sample shirt that was never released in the long-sleeved version, but dozens of samples were made of that style before it got cut from their summer line.

3. How can BPLers be missing the very foundation of a just society?????

What disturbs me the most about SO many of the comments to this thread is the COMPLETE distain for "due process" under the law -- you have tried and convicted the manufacturer and seller, with ONE TINY SHRED of circumstantial evidence, no knowledge of industry practices, and no opportunity for him to defend himself! Wow, that's scary! Especially from folks who've written pages and pages of fine sentiments about "making a difference", "morality", etc. One of the ONLY things that separates a polity from fascism is DUE PROCESS. Please, think about it. Am I really the only one here who thinks very foundation of the Anglo-American legal system is vitally important?

Edited by Wildtowner on 11/16/2013 14:28:51 MST.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: The almighty BPL moral code on 11/16/2013 15:05:13 MST Print View

" we've done some pretty nasty things abroad - not so much to enforce our moral code on others but really to ensure wealth for our 1 percenters. But, as with everything, nothing is black and white."

+1 That, too. As you say, nothing is black and white, excepting perhaps Zebras and Pandas. ;0)

"Enforcing our 'western moral code' on others has also helped to end apartheid, is helping to combat human trafficking and the child sex trade, and helping to combat some other repugnant practices in other countries. And, I'll admit, I'm quite alright with that, regardless of whether the 'locals' are quite fine with their own moral code."

I would feel better about that were our enforcement a bit less selective, to the point of being cynical. And I am totally against it if it involves sacrificing our young men and women, or inflicts even greater suffering on the local population than they are already undergoing. Iraq is a poster child for my line of reasoning. As are The West Bank and Gaza, speaking of apartheid. Closer to home, to the degree that it is presented to our own people as the reason for undertaking coercive measures abroad, I think it distracts us from dealing with our mess.

Edited by ouzel on 11/16/2013 15:07:33 MST.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Re: Re: The almighty BPL moral code on 11/16/2013 15:10:55 MST Print View

"I would feel better about that were our enforcement a bit less selective, to the point of being cynical. And I am totally against it if it involves sacrificing our young men and women, or inflicts even greater suffering on the local population than they are already undergoing."

We agree here. Notable that in the examples I gave above - economics was our forcing function, not our service members. And generally much more successful, though you might point out, and I'd also agree with, our sanctions are often very poorly conceived and hurt the 'rank and file' without effecting the rich and powerful in the target country....

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: The International Fashion Industry & A Just Society on 11/16/2013 15:25:48 MST Print View

The trademark owner has already stated that this is a fake. If you want to ignore the law because it's inconvenient and perform mental gymnastics to justify the purchase then you do so at your own peril.

Knowingly importing counterfeit goods from China never sounds like a good idea.

Edit:

"One of the ONLY things that separates a polity from fascism is DUE PROCESS."

"Due process" relates to criminal proceedings. If a prosecutor a) finds that you are in violation of the law, b) finds your case worthy of prosecuting, and c) can secure an indictment... you will certainly have your day in court to argue your case.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 11/16/2013 15:46:50 MST.

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Faux-dini": 2.3 oz. Windshirt, <$15 - Initial Review and Sourcing on 11/16/2013 15:27:48 MST Print View

Valerie,
at best it can only be a failed pre-production run, in other words (at best....) a line that Jack Wolfskin has rejected.
Why ?
Because again the label is on the wrong side and very simply JW does not sell that particular item.
Same as finding an $80 Apple iPhone 7 with interchangeable battery.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: The almighty BPL moral code on 11/16/2013 15:43:04 MST Print View

Tom,

From reading your postings since I joined last year, I agree with you more often than not. I don't disagree with anything you've written here. However, I can't justify breaking the law by purchasing counterfeit goods just because America's foreign policy flaws are many and massive.

I never heard of Jack Wolfskin before this thread. Just because they are a multi million dollar business does not make them exempt from internationally accepted protection.

The funny thing is that this ebay company adds no value to this wind shirt that I can perceive by adding the logo. It seems far simpler to just remove the logo or create their own TM and sell this product through legitimate means. Lord knows that there's a market for this shirt.

Edit to add: If they sold this shirt legally with the logo "cheap piece of crap" on the chest for <$20, I'd buy one right now.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 11/16/2013 15:49:06 MST.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The almighty BPL moral code on 11/16/2013 15:51:35 MST Print View

"economics was our forcing function, not our service members. And generally much more successful"

Yes, particularly in South Africa, where the major impact came when US corporations like IBM were forced to close up shop there. The Afrikaners saw the handwriting on the wall and folded before there was much of an impact at the grass roots level.

"though you might point out, and I'd also agree with, our sanctions are often very poorly conceived and hurt the 'rank and file' without effecting the rich and powerful in the target country...."

Indeed. That was the case in Iraq, where close to one million Iraqis, half of them children, perished as a result of the sanctions regime engineered by the US in the mid 90's. A very similar situation prevails in Gaza since the people there made the wrong choice when they elected Hamas to govern them and we immediately imposed sanctions. And now Iran. Cuba has fared a bit better, but in all these cases, it is the common people who have borne the brunt of the suffering.

Justin Baker
(justin_baker) - F

Locale: west coast best coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The almighty BPL moral code on 11/16/2013 15:53:54 MST Print View

If I buy the shirt and rip off the logo when I get it, then is it ok?
I've never heard of jack wolfskin and I'm certainly not going to buy their reportedly expensive products, so I see no moral issue here (legal issues aside).

It would be different if I found a jack wolfskin product that I liked and intentionally searched the internet for a cheaper knock off of that item.

Edited by justin_baker on 11/16/2013 15:59:08 MST.

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Fake Jack Wofskin jacket on 11/16/2013 15:57:45 MST Print View

I'll give you another clue...
If you look at the top of the page in that listing you will see a photo named "all".
That is the one that shows all the colours in one photo.
look carefully and you will see that they have a different brand (can't read it) and on the other side .
all

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Fake Jack Wolfskin jacket on 11/16/2013 16:08:19 MST Print View

Let me propose a scenario. Same ebay company starts making cuben fiber shelters. They add the Zpacks logo and market the shelter as a hexamid but for hundreds less that the real company can sell the shelter for. (replace with MLD, TT, or other cottage industry you respect). No gray area in the law; it's a completely illegal product but (in this scenario) there is zero chance of you being served with a warrant.

Would you buy this shelter?

Edited by IDBLOOM on 11/16/2013 16:10:36 MST.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The almighty BPL moral code on 11/16/2013 16:10:37 MST Print View

"From reading your postings since I joined last year, I agree with you more often than not. I don't disagree with anything you've written here. However, I can't justify breaking the law by purchasing counterfeit goods just because America's foreign policy flaws are many and massive."

Ian,

My bad if you thought I was using a critique of US foreign policy to justify buying a counterfeit windshirt. Nothing could be further from the truth. Personally, I have never knowingly purchased anything that is counterfeit, nor would I. I'm pretty sure my record on that score, knowingly or not, is clean. It's unfortunate the thread drifted, and I got involved in a subject that would have been better addressed in Chaff. I think that is where Katharina tried to move it, but half of the conversation is still being conducted here. Not sure what to do about that....

As for my postings, I have a hunch that, while we are bound to disagree on various specifics, we both want what is best for this country. My hope is that thru discussions like these we can start to arrive at a grass roots consensus on what needs to be done to get our country back on course. If has to start somewhere; if not in forums like BPL, then where? Otherwise, I wouldn't waste my time presenting my own ideas for dissection/debate. To me, this is where the rubber meets the road in an open, democratic society.

Looking forward to continuing the dialogue(s).

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: The International Fashion Industry & A Just Society on 11/16/2013 18:04:42 MST Print View

Hi Valerie

> 1. A few words on how the Fashion Industry works:
Ah, you know too much. :-)
You are letting Harsh Reality (the Real World) intrude into an armchair rant about why the rest of the world should conform to some people's slightly misled ideas about how the American system works.
In other words, I agree.

> Maybe this accounts for the VERY strange response that Ian B got from Jack Wolfskin
> ("It's an [sic] fake.", go to our website and buy our stuff.)
Yup, exactly. Boilerplate response, as I said before. I imagine Jack Wolfskin have zero interest in pursuing the matter - and probably anticipated it happening before they placed the contract! As, most likely, in years past as well.

There's a JW shop in Oberstdorf in Germany (I think JW is a German company), and towards the end of the season everything 'left over' from the peak selling season (ie all the seasonal fashion stuff) goes at half price. They still make a good profit from that.

> Please, think about it. Am I really the only one here who thinks very foundation of
> the Anglo-American legal system is vitally important?
Yup - for instance the NSA does not.

Cheers

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: The International Fashion Industry & A Just Society on 11/16/2013 18:07:58 MST Print View

Hi Ian

> "Due process" relates to criminal proceedings. If a prosecutor a) finds that you are
> in violation of the law, b) finds your case worthy of prosecuting, and c) can secure
> an indictment... you will certainly have your day in court to argue your case.

Er, well, better add 'd) it is politically expedient to pursue the matter' to that list. The fraction of reported offenses which are NEVER pursued is not small.

Cheers

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Fake Jack Wofskin jacket on 11/16/2013 18:15:04 MST Print View

Franco wrote:

> If you look at the top of the page in that listing you will see a photo named "all".
> That is the one that shows all the colours in one photo.
> look carefully and you will see that they have a different brand (can't read it)
> and on the other side .

Hum ... I wonder ... perhaps the company did a production run of these shirts first, then added a number of known logos to the WRONG sides, then offered them as samples to the various Western companies? When (some of) the Western companies declined to place a contract (or even if they did), all the samples were put on eBay?

That fits kinda close to how they work. It also means the logo is, from the vendor's point of view, completely irrelevant - which may be why they simply did not mention the logos in the ad.

Cheers

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: The International Fashion Industry & A Just Society on 11/16/2013 18:16:48 MST Print View

"Am I really the only one here who thinks very foundation of the Anglo-American legal system is vitally important?"



You are almost alone, I am afraid. Due process is almost a thing of the past but maybe we could reintroduce the idea; I am all for that.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: The International Fashion Industry & A Just Society on 11/16/2013 18:21:30 MST Print View

Keep in mind that Kat is one of the cornerstones of the International Fashion Industry. She has a whole team of lawyers ready to litigate any improper use of Mountaingoat Hats.

--B.G.--

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: The International Fashion Industry & A Just Society on 11/16/2013 18:33:47 MST Print View

Roger,

I've testified to hundreds of cases in grand jury and and investigated many more than that but thanks for explaining to me how it works. Kind of like me telling you how to put a stove together.

Edit none of them were IPR cases as that's not my field of work.

Edit edit: Well I went full d-bag with this response but I'll leave it up seeing that you people piss me off.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 11/16/2013 18:44:11 MST.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: The International Fashion Industry & A Just Society on 11/16/2013 18:49:55 MST Print View

"You are almost alone, I am afraid. Due process is almost a thing of the past but maybe we could reintroduce the idea; I am all for that."

I'm clearly looking at this from a legal perspective and don't understand where you're coming from. I ask without hostility, what does this mean to you and could you provide an example?

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: The International Fashion Industry & A Just Society on 11/16/2013 18:53:51 MST Print View

Well, if you are ok with me bringing up drones, then yes, I do have an example.
There have been at least 4 American citizens, one famous case the others not so much, that have been killed by drones without due process.



http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-02-08/obama-s-drone-attack-on-your-due-process.html


http://reason.com/blog/2013/05/24/aclu-calls-bullshit-on-obamas-drone-spee


http://www.salon.com/2011/09/30/awlaki_6/


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/barackobama/9913615/Barack-Obama-has-authority-to-use-drone-strikes-to-kill-Americans-on-US-soil.html

Edited by Kat_P on 11/16/2013 19:21:08 MST.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: The International Fashion Industry & A Just Society on 11/16/2013 19:11:06 MST Print View

Well that's a whole other thread altogether!

I can't speak for Valerie but from reading her response, it seemed she's implying that the individual citizen should apply due process before judging the ebay vendor. To me, this isn't a case of being judgmental towards the vendor but one of using good judgment.

The trademark owner has stated the wind shirt is a counterfeit. There is no other information available to us at this time to dispute this. If the vendor or another source is willing to provide conclusive evidence that this isn't a fake, I'll order a couple for my kids tomorrow.

If this was a legal proceeding, we'd have probable cause to arrest. But it isn't.

Edit to add: "If this was a legal proceeding, we'd have probable cause to arrest. But it isn't." wasn't directed at the OP but at the vendor. My apologies.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 11/20/2013 14:39:25 MST.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The International Fashion Industry & A Just Society on 11/16/2013 19:15:20 MST Print View

"If this was a legal proceeding, we'd have probable cause to arrest. But it isn't."

To arrest already... or to investigate more and then maybe arrest?

Edited by Kat_P on 11/16/2013 19:16:30 MST.

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
Spending time on 11/16/2013 21:18:22 MST Print View

Nice sleuthing, Franco. The Patagonia connection seems to come from the 'dini' reference in the thread title to the Houdini, one of their windshirts. FWIW: http://www.jackwolfskin2013online.com/jack-wolfskin-women-windproof-jackets_c6

Took a look at this thread because wondered how a post about a windshirt could possibly go on at such length.

Made me think of a guest Bill Moyers had on his PBS show recently. She was a psychologist who specializes in how the internet and portable computers have totally changed how we spend our time, and how that affects us. She had a very pleasant way of presenting her views and findings, but reflection on what she said was for me positively scary. Will we all end up like those pod people in the Matrix movie sequel, physically and socially inert, but happily living out our existence in pods while communicating on computers?

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Faux-dini": 2.3 oz. Windshirt, <$15 - Initial Review and Sourcing on 11/16/2013 21:37:19 MST Print View

The thread started with " I decided to try out a cheapie Faux Houdini ..."
My original point was that it has nothing to do with that American brand and in fact it isn't even a copy of a JW jacket simply because they don't sell a jacket of that type...
(you can't buy a fake iPod 7 because Apple does not make one...)
If it is right or wrong that has nothing to do with me, I and Rick simply tried to share that info.

Edited by Franco on 11/16/2013 21:45:55 MST.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Faux-dini": 2.3 oz. Windshirt, <$15 - Initial Review and Sourcing on 11/16/2013 21:42:50 MST Print View

"The thread started with " I decided to try out a cheapie Faux Houdini ...""


Deceiving start for a tragedy.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Re: The International Fashion Industry & A Just Society on 11/17/2013 00:56:45 MST Print View

Hi Ian

Having written several patents under very good tuition and studied IP for 6 months in a management course, I have a small amount of knowledge of IP principles. Not lots, but some basic principles.

I wonder - is this a case where the whole jacket is a fake, or where the Chinese company is using the JW logo illegally? If JW do not sell an identical jacket - same pattern, same fabric, etc, then I suspect the latter. I also note that that Franco thinks there were several different logos on display.

Does all this matter? Well, if JW do not market an identical jacket, then I question whether the misuse of their IP (the logo) really hurts the bottom line for JW. It is most unlikely that customers willing to buy one of the Chinese jackets at their price would be willing to pay the JW prices. At least, the Chinese vendor was not claiming to be selling a JW product. The misuse of the logo is naughty of the Chinese vendor of course, but that's all.

Cheers

Corbin McFarlane
(raven15) - MLife
reply on 11/17/2013 02:24:44 MST Print View

Ian B. wrote:
"The funny thing is that this ebay company adds no value to this wind shirt that I can perceive by adding the logo. It seems far simpler to just remove the logo or create their own TM and sell this product through legitimate means. Lord knows that there's a market for this shirt.

Edit to add: If they sold this shirt legally with the logo "cheap piece of crap" on the chest for <$20, I'd buy one right now."

In China, there are billions of products circulating of this exact type, some counterfeits, some fake counterfeits (yes there are actually several levels of counterfeit there, after a particular counterfeit makes a name for itself there will be copies of it. There is genuine "counterfeit" Pabst Blue Ribbon!) There are people who appear to be counterfeiting but actually just don't know what they are doing. There are brands that seem like they should be a counterfeit but actually are not, and vice versa.

I find it likely that a clothing company hired a recent college grad and said "we need some cool shirt ideas." Interspersed with generous time stealing carrots on QQ Farm, said grad surfed the internet and the wave arrived at a picture of a good looking western model in a jacket that said "Jack Wolfskin." The grad had just enough English to think "WOW now that's cool!" and handed the words over along with half a dozen other ideas and the company ran a few off. It is quite possible that those involved never even realized this was a "competing" clothing company.

I haven't seen a shirt over there that said "cheap piece of crap" but I did see a young girl in a shirt with two blue acorns that said "No more blue nuts!" (and I almost died laughing). Respectable businesswoman wear trousers with the Playboy Bunny logo printed in full gorgeous color across the backside -twice- and don't have the slightest idea what it means. The most popular music format is ".mp5" (whatever that means, it's just a name that sounds good to them). Heck, I saw a guy wearing a T-shirt with my own run-of-the-mill university's logo on it! I started talking to him and saying the university's name (being only a year out of college) and he was absolutely confused about the whole situation. He had no idea what it said or that it was even a university, or even a state! All of this is common and quite innocent.

If they see an idea in western popular culture they like, they copy it straight up because it seems hip, wealthy, stylish, whatever with no concern for anything deeper or even for accuracy. Only a handful of brands have the cachet to be truly counterfeited (TNF, Goretex, Lois Vitton, et al). I think this is the innocent one, or else they would have done a better reproduction and marketed it as such. If you stay a week in "real" China you'll realize this isn't even worth a second thought, pretty much the entire population does it, as well as the populations of the nearest 36 countries.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The International Fashion Industry & A Just Society on 11/17/2013 08:55:20 MST Print View

"I wonder - is this a case where the whole jacket is a fake, or where the Chinese company is using the JW logo illegally? "

I didn't see the wind shirt on their website when I went looking for it the other day. It's certainly a trademark infringement but there isn't enough information on this thread or the response from Jack Wolfskin to determine if this is a discontinued item and if there is a design patent associated with this garment.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: reply on 11/17/2013 08:57:16 MST Print View

Raven,

I'm not sure if you read some of the earlier responses but apparently Jack Wolfskin is a German company and it sounds like they are well known in parts of Europe.

scree ride
(scree)
shady on 11/17/2013 09:15:40 MST Print View

They may resist the false advertisement charges by not directly advertising, yet they still entice the customer with the photography. The names could have been easily covered up. It's a back alley way of doing the same thing.
While this may have little to do with labor practices, it is a red flag. We know the deal is shady, just not how shady. it reminds me of an old joke. I'd tell it but it wouldn't stay up long and then somebody would be upset that my rights were being trampled on and the cycle would continue.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F - M
Shady on 11/17/2013 09:27:57 MST Print View

I bet many moralizing people or their family members here do "shady" things

- go over the speed limit
- run "bootleg" copies of windows
- download or stream cids/music from unauthorized sources
- cowboy camp
- use alchy stoves inspite of fire restrictions
- hike indecently exposed
- toke a joint where its still not "legal"
- etc ....

Theres nothing so ineffective as intraweb "moralizing"

As a "moraless" AZN i really dont get what all the fuss is about ... Just walk around any AZN mall in north america and youll see how "lacking" we are in "morals"

Taliban, murder, etc ... All over a windshirt

Now back to the REAL questions for those that have one

- how does it perform on an actual hike
- does a XL fit a mens medium

I mean this IS backpackinglight???

Not the the republican convention or a church sermon right ???

;)

And E
(LunchANDYnner) - M

Locale: Pacific Northwest
edited/delete, whatever on 11/17/2013 10:20:29 MST Print View

Done here. I'll still post my review of the windshirt when I get it, but probably not considering what this thread had turned to. If anybody wants to know how it does, you can PM me in a week.

In the mean time:
bunnies

Bunnies.

I'm glad that as a forum of people sharing similar passions care enough about the world to have serious discussions. I just wish it could've been done as a separate thread, as I only kept checking here to see if any more relevant reviews/pictures have been posted, before my own arrives.

Edited by LunchANDYnner on 11/17/2013 10:54:53 MST.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: morals on 11/17/2013 10:29:40 MST Print View

Hmmm.
Most thrift stores sell the majority of their items at a fraction of their worth. Not many people are looking for light backpacking items.
Maybe we should let them know about the jeans they are selling at 2.99 that are "worth" fifty dollars? Their sofa could be sold at 150 instead of 35? The roll of fabric at 60 instead of 12?
Should thrift stores sell at what everything is worth, making them unaffordable to many?

I think your post is a stretch and implies that any time one gets a deal they are actually stealing, or at least they ought not to get the deal and leave it for someone else. That is on a whole other level.

And E
(LunchANDYnner) - M

Locale: Pacific Northwest
whatever to fit your morals on 11/17/2013 10:39:45 MST Print View

Eh, I'm done with this thread.

Also, to Katharina, my bad. You weren't the one being preachy. Hard to keep track of 188+ posts.

Edited by LunchANDYnner on 11/17/2013 10:49:29 MST.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: trust whatever to fit your morals on 11/17/2013 10:40:48 MST Print View

"See, you are just sitting there trying to justify what fits your morals. But have no problem preaching about anything else that you see as immoral."



Actually I do very little preaching as far as what is moral. Give me an example of what you are accusing me of please, or take it back.

Edited by Kat_P on 11/17/2013 10:46:31 MST.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: trust whatever to fit your morals on 11/17/2013 10:50:16 MST Print View

Thanks for editing that.
I try and not preach much.

Edited by Kat_P on 11/17/2013 10:51:43 MST.

Delmar O'Donnell
(Bolster)

Locale: Between Jacinto & Gorgonio
Get Moral Now, Ask Me How! on 11/17/2013 10:56:43 MST Print View

AndE> "I find it funny how people are soapboxing here, while there was another thread earlier with many posters bragging about how they've ripped off good will and other thrift stores, yet there was no backlash and 100+ posts about morality..."

Good point! Not just ripping off the thrift stores, but also ripping off the corporations who are being robbed of new sales (like the corporation Jack Wolfskin, which is being robbed of sales via the eBay store, Cnfocus). The secondary market is immoral. Gear Swap is immoral. The whole commercial marketplace is immoral.

Moral people who purchase from thrift stores should feel ashamed, and contribute the difference between the below-market purchase price, and the retail price, to a charity! Also, moral people who check books out of the library for free, should feel ashamed for stealing IP from the author, and donate the purchase price of the book to charity!

Hey, I'm full of ideas on how all YOU people should lead your lives to satisfy my moral standards. And the reason I get to decide if you are moral enough, is because I'm waaay more moral than you. (In my own mind, at least.) Can't beat argument by assertion, so don't try.

The charity you should donate to is the Delmar O'Donnell Center for Superior Morality--a subsidiary of Johann Tetzel's Indulgences, in operation since 1517. Be certain to send your donation as a PayPal "gift," so we can shaft PayPal out of a commission. If you prefer to shaft the USPS instead, please send your donation by "media mail." Your donation is tax deductible, so we can shaft the US Government, too.

[EDIT: Aww AndE, that was a great post you removed. Replaced by bunnies, possibly dead ones. I'm fining you an indulgence for that, awaiting your payment.]

Edited by Bolster on 11/17/2013 11:10:01 MST.

And E
(LunchANDYnner) - M

Locale: Pacific Northwest
please inset girder on 11/17/2013 10:58:59 MST Print View

Same here, Katharina. Unfortunately, I snapped a little and wrote my post coming off being much meaner and whatnot than I intended, and ironically, stood upon the soapbox I was decrying.

Edited by LunchANDYnner on 11/17/2013 11:19:03 MST.

Rusty Beaver
(rustyb) - F

Locale: Rocky Mountains
Re: morals on 11/17/2013 11:40:01 MST Print View

Wow, LunchAndy. Never been called out on being immoral before. Not sure how to respond. However, if you will notice, I stated that I hoped what I had posted would inspire others....not to "ripoff" but inspire them to buy used rather than new....to consume less new things which, is arguably the root of most enviro issues.

My intent was not to brag but to give examples of what one can find at thrift stores...IF one is persistent enough. My wife and I have been thrift storing for yrs...in many different locales. The bottom line is this: Screaming deals can be found anywhere...if people will take the time to look.

You've made a few assumptions also. Goodwill? I didn't state which thrift stores I purchase most of my stuff from. That is another topic though which I wish not to participate in. I should also note that I donate items, I do not need, to thrift stores freely and often. I should have noted that in my thrift store thread you linked to.

Re your comment "Is it your job to teach the employee what price it should be then pay that price or leave the item to be purchased by people with lesser means"? I can't speak for all locales. However, I can say with confidence, where I shop, people of "lesser means" are not shopping for Goretex. They have no idea what it is. People of lesser means here are shopping for kids clothes and other such practical things. That appears to be the case most places I have been too. Those shopping for Goretex and the like usually have the means but shop at thrift stores for other reasons...including practicality, "moral" reasons, enviro and so forth. I say this not on assumptions but knowing many others who also shop at thrift stores...though not as regularly as I.

Getting into the subject of moral issues, and especially calling out people on it based on assumptions, isn't always the best place to go. We could get into all sorts of facets here like the type of agriculture and power you support, amongst many other lifestyle choices/habits that will affect our successors in a negative way.

Very sorry that my thrift store thread was taken for anything other that good intent.

EDIT: LunchAndy, looks like you deleted/edited your post before I posted my response. I didn't know. No hard feelings, I hope. I wish not to stir up poop here or any other thread. I know I'm not perfect. Far from it. Just wanna plant seeds of thought. Fundamentally, we're all the same in that we have feelings and wish to see our kids healthy and smiling. Peace!

Edited by rustyb on 11/17/2013 12:11:48 MST.

Delmar O'Donnell
(Bolster)

Locale: Between Jacinto & Gorgonio
Re: Re: morals on 11/17/2013 11:55:46 MST Print View

> inspire them to buy used rather than new....

Immoral!

Robs the manufacturer of revenue, just like Cnfocus. Abusing the system. Just like refilling your soda cup too many times at In-N-Out.

Fortunately for you, you can restore your morality to shiny bright status. See my above post on how you can Get Moral again.

Edited by Bolster on 11/17/2013 11:57:21 MST.

And E
(LunchANDYnner) - M

Locale: Pacific Northwest
browser crash and an apology on 11/17/2013 12:48:23 MST Print View

I was writing this long post apologizing for my unfair portrayal of a well meaning that and well meaning people and then my Android Chrome crashed.

Suffice it to say, I'm sorry. In the heat of the moment I said things that I didn't mean/said it in a way that, after reading it later, made me think WTF, why was I being so mean/accusatory.

It was my intention to point out that Valerie made a well making post about a cheap windshirt she bought, and people piled on the thread about the morality of the purchase/similar purchase habits, etc, and in ironic twist, I did the same thing by using the good will thread as my fodder.

I was being quite hypocritical, playing the devil's advocate, as I would buy gear at single digit prices in a heartbeat. And as mentioned, rebuying used products is scout as environmentally responsible as you can get.

Edited by LunchANDYnner on 11/17/2013 13:22:06 MST.

And E
(LunchANDYnner) - M

Locale: Pacific Northwest
phone went crazy on 11/17/2013 12:49:48 MST Print View

Double post, phone went crazy.

Edited by LunchANDYnner on 11/17/2013 12:53:06 MST.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: morals on 11/17/2013 12:50:37 MST Print View

Buying counterfeit goods is illegal. Buying an otherwise legal second hand jacket from the thrift store is legal. How is this complicated?

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Re: morals on 11/17/2013 12:52:56 MST Print View

The legality is not complicated. Morality does not always go hand in hand with legality and that is where it gets complicated.

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
Re: Re: Re: Re: morals on 11/17/2013 13:43:36 MST Print View

>"Buying counterfeit goods is illegal. Buying an otherwise legal second hand jacket from the thrift store is legal. How is this complicated?"

Really?!? Can you cite a case where a consumer was arrested for buying a counterfeit item? Unauthorized use of trademarks, copyrights and patents is illegal in some cases (and "fair use" in others), but other than those trafficking in commercial quantities, I'm drawing a blank on anyone being fined or doing time for possessing a faux-Gucci handbag. At most, it might be seized at a customs checkpoint at the border.

And then on the legal/illegal question:

At times, it was illegal to house escaped slaves.

It is currently illegal to marry one's life partner in many places if you aren't the approved mix of genders.

It can be illegal and a capital offense to refuse to kill other humans, if ordered to do so in the military.

Legality and morality are only loosely connected.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: morals on 11/17/2013 15:29:24 MST Print View

David,

Yes the laws (state, federal, and municipal) with few exceptions are written against the supply chain and not the buyer. There are eighty-something federal judicial districts, fifty states, the territories/protectorates, and countless cities which all have a voice in how the law is written and/or enforced. I can barely speak on the enforcement priorities of the three districts and state I've worked in much less the thousands of other jurisdictions I haven't as they change from day to day.

Yes, in all likelihood and absent any larger conspiracy to traffic, the worst a consumer is probably looking at is forfeiting the counterfeit good. But make no mistake, this garment is a known counterfeit and importing it into the U.S. is illegal.

The only reason this market exists is because people like you equate the fact that you're not going to jail as justification to do it. It'd be nice if they would go after the demand side as well but proving the mens rea would admittedly be extremely difficult unless the statute was written in a way to be strict liability which would be unfair to the defendant in this case.

And David, while I don't have personal knowledge of a buyer going to jail, I do have personal knowledge of how counterfeit goods fund terrorist organizations in some cases and criminal organizations in most cases. My knowledge and experience with this is why I'm on this crusade. If you want to ignore this and support the black market anyways, then that's on you but realize that there is much much more in play here than trademark infringement.

P.S. I'd normally call you out on playing the slavery/gay rights card but since I went Taliban I guess we're even.

Ken Miller
(Powderpiggy) - F

Locale: Colorado
Dr Phil on 11/17/2013 17:14:40 MST Print View

I can't figure out if this thread needs a Dr. Phil or a Judge Judy intervention.

I am so anxious for the Sunday Night Football Bronco vs Chiefs game, I read the whole thing.

Thankfully it's snowing in Colorado and we'll soon be able to proceed with winter fun.

Delmar O'Donnell
(Bolster)

Locale: Between Jacinto & Gorgonio
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: morals on 11/17/2013 18:05:24 MST Print View

> My knowledge and experience with this is why I'm on this crusade.

Ian vs. The Entire Orient.

Good luck with that! Let us know when you've rid the world of those evil family enterprises in China, gotten the East to conform to Western law, and made the world safe for the wearing of approved rain gear. We will raise a crucifix (you said crusade, right?) over the heathen lands when you have subdued them--legally, of course.

Way out of line to lay moral turpitude on David ("people like you...") for fact-checking your assertion that *buying* a counterfeit Chinese item was illegal. Way, way out of line.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Dr Phil on 11/17/2013 18:14:02 MST Print View

"Thankfully it's snowing in Colorado and we'll soon be able to proceed with winter fun."

Here on BPL, this IS winter fun. ;0)

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: morals on 11/17/2013 18:18:33 MST Print View

" I do have personal knowledge of how counterfeit goods fund terrorist organizations"

This is a blank spot in my knowledge base, Ian. Are you able, and willing, to share a few specific examples? I know some outfits make money in the drug trade, but there the goods are not counterfeit. Bad for repeat business.

Samuel C. Farrington
(scfhome) - M

Locale: Chocorua NH, USA
Sucked back in on 11/17/2013 18:20:21 MST Print View

Dave T,
Re: "Can you cite a case where a consumer was arrested for buying a counterfeit item?"

Prosecutions for receiving stolen property are common, and often result in prison time. Then there are civil, as well as criminal wrongs that can result in money judgments a lot worse than probation or a short stretch at the county farm. If the judgments are based on fraudulent conduct, they are not even dischargeable in bankruptcy in the US(like college loans). Seem to recall a number of cases where purchasers of downloaded copyrighted music were held responsible to pay big judgments. There may even have been some criminal convictions, but memory fades.

And: "It can be illegal and a capital offense to refuse to kill other humans, if ordered to do so in the military."

Not sure about it being a 'capital' offense, but otherwise yes, and it can also be a capital offense if the order is obeyed. As we say up heah, 'between a rock and a hahd place.'

It's all part of being a citizen in an oligarchy/plutocracy. But don't worry, it will self-destruct eventually, but that will be a lot worse than slavery and subjugation. Cheep, cheep (sound of Chicken Little).

Now let's see, what was that again about the Houdini-like windshirt.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: morals on 11/17/2013 19:41:59 MST Print View

Left this up long enough for everyone who was interested to read.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 12/04/2013 13:22:39 MST.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: morals on 11/17/2013 19:46:03 MST Print View

"Way out of line to lay moral turpitude on David ("people like you...") for fact-checking your assertion that *buying* a counterfeit Chinese item was illegal. Way, way out of line."

Delmar, you look like you could use a hug. Bring it in big guy.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: morals on 11/17/2013 19:52:46 MST Print View

I prefer the clear crystaline blue meth

made by the chemist Heisenberg

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: morals on 11/17/2013 20:44:05 MST Print View

"Meth batch B was smuggled in from Mexico and is a result of Cartel violence."

The Cartel angle I understand quite well. I was thinking more about designated terrorist groups funding their operations by counterfeiting goods. It is well known that they are involved in the drug trade in both Afghanistan and Lebanon, to mention 2 countries. What I'm looking for is information on instances where they are funding operations by moving counterfeit products.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: morals on 11/17/2013 21:03:07 MST Print View

Left the rest up long enough for those who were interested to read.

First hit from my google search (not the case I was referring to above):

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/12/business/worldbusiness/12iht-fake.4569452.html?_r=0

Edited by IDBLOOM on 12/04/2013 13:24:02 MST.

And E
(LunchANDYnner) - M

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Ian is right about some counterfit goods funding terror and drugs on 11/17/2013 21:10:20 MST Print View

EDIT: Oops! Looks like Ian beat me to it while I was typing/googling.
***

Actually, I've read somewhere, can't remember if it was the news or a Cracked.com article (but cracked does better fact checking than the news these days) that many times, counterfeit items are used to funnel money for the drug trade/terror groups.

actually, it was the NY Times and other news:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/12/business/worldbusiness/12iht-fake.4569452.html?_r=0

Just some interesting/fun/terrifying reads from Cracked.com:

regarding breaking the law:
http://www.cracked.com/article_19450_6-laws-youve-broken-without-even-realizing-it.html

and copyrighted items (although some are no longer applicable):
http://www.cracked.com/article_20066_5-everyday-things-you-wont-believe-are-copyrighted.html

And the extent of Chinese counterfeiting:
http://www.cracked.com/article_19742_the-5-most-insane-examples-chinese-counterfeiting.html

Edited by LunchANDYnner on 11/17/2013 21:11:30 MST.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: morals on 11/17/2013 21:12:30 MST Print View

> the worst a consumer is probably looking at is forfeiting the counterfeit good.
I understand that selling goods which breach copyright is illegal in the USA (but probably not in China in practice), but I am not aware of anything in the copyright laws which makes buying the windshirt illegal. The fundamental point of the copyright (& trademark) laws is to reserve to the copyright owner the profits from that item.
But maybe USA law is different.

> But make no mistake, this garment is a known counterfeit and importing it into
> the U.S. is illegal.
Um ... should making that judgement (known counterfeit) be reserved to due process and a court? I was not aware that a civilian could declare something illegal all by himself. (This does not cover 'reasonable grounds to believe...' but that is a different matter.)
But maybe USA law is different.

Cheers

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
FWIW on 11/17/2013 21:16:52 MST Print View

To all,

I'm disappointed in myself that I've allowed this thread to aggravate me the way it did. We are all products of our experiences and it's not fair for me to assume that we should all be on the same sheet of music. I truly do realize that most of you and 99% of my countrymen consider IPR violations to be as serious as jaywalking. But the reality is that if you saw someone get hit by a car, you'd probably look at jaywalking differently. That's where I am at with IPR because I've had a couple opportunities to see its sinister side.

I've said everything I can possibly offer on this topic. I hope that if nothing else, you understand that there is more to IPR violations than the harm to the trademark owner, copyright, etc.

Happy trails all. I'm done here.

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
IP is good. War on Terror, maybe not. on 11/17/2013 22:06:11 MST Print View

Ian,

I like IP laws - well, at least the ones of 50+ years ago - when there was more of a balance between the term of patent protection to encourage R&D and eventually letting the invention be used freely by others. Back when the Patent Office actually reviewed applications instead of letting it all get sorted out in the courts. And one really had to describe how the invention was made or how the process worked and not just grab as much of an engineering realm as possible while withholding important information.

And I agree with copyright protection (during a period corresponding roughly to an artist/author's life, that isn't just corporate welfare for Disney, et al).

And I think Trademark protection is a good thing. I'm even okay with it being potentially forever. Philip Morris has spent how many millions (could it be over a billion?) promoting Malboro(TM), and someone else shouldn't be able to market cigarettes in indentical red, white and black packaging.

My response to your post was on two points:

1) A consumer buying goods with a counterfeit trademark is not going to be arrested or fined. The extent to which they have broken an enforceable rule or regulation is if they transport it through customs where it could be seized.

2) that legal versus illegal can be proxies for morality. So I gave some counter examples (based on my morals, YMMV).

I don't have any faux Gucci(TM) handbags or Hermes(TM) scarves, but based on the shear fraction of the market effected by counterfeits, I'd assume I unknowingly have bought a few counterfeit Levi's(TM), Carrhartts(TM), Columbia(TM), etc. I was filling in a few blanks in the coin collection I inherited from my grandmother on eBay when it dawned on me that if the US government could mint a coin in 1878, someone in China can do a bang-up job of it in 2011, so I stopped. Even before that occurred to me, thankfully I'd noted which ones I'd gotten from her - I liked knowing that she'd put them in the album herself 80 years ago.

I will admit to one knowing and one possible infraction on my part. The whole family was in China teaching math, science and English in an exchange program through Yale and my 7-year-old daughter wanted to buy a watch. And she liked the Mickey Mouse(C) one. Now I know that despite the authentic-looking, silvery holographic sticker on it and all the official Disney markings, nothing was contributed to Bob Iger's executive bonus. Ironically, it was the MOST iconic and least defensible use of copyright protection because if it hadn't been for Mickey Mouse(C) and Disney, maybe our copyright laws wouldn't have taken a further turn for the worse in 1998, but I let her get it.

My other possible offense was to buy Oreo cookies in an Chinese supermarket. It is certainly possible, maybe even likely, that Nabisco got no royalties. But I really wanted to know what Oreos with green-tea filling tasted like.

I deeply apologize to any families that lost loved ones to an terrorist action financed from the ill-gotten gains of that Y100 (US$16) watch. (And the US$2 cookies). I have to take Ian at his word about terrorists financing themselves by manufacturing fake Rolexes (I thought they were bigger into conflict diamonds, controlling gold-mining areas, poppy fields, cocaine production and distribution, gun running, kidnapping, highjacking ships, prostitution, and wide-spread exhortation but maybe not). If the first two sentences of this paragraph sounds sarcastic, well, they are. "Hey, Che, put down your AK-47 and that C-4 and help me design a production line for watches that is so efficient they can be sold for $10 in Times Square."?!? I'm just not seeing it. And these mysterious "public documents" that Ian can't tell us about? An even older excuse than "We need this law to defend against terrorists" is "I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you." I'm not saying counterfeiters aren't criminals - they are. And they probably don't treat their workers very well. I'd like to think I would have opposed McCarthyism in the 1950's. I certainly can't support making un-named terrorists the universal boogyman of this century.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F - M
Shirt on 11/17/2013 22:47:38 MST Print View

Anyone use the windshirt outside yet?

;)

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Faux-dini": 2.3 oz. Windshirt, <$15 - Initial Review and Sourcing on 11/18/2013 00:22:00 MST Print View

What windshirt ?

Anthony Viera
(joydivisi0n) - M

Locale: Orange County
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: morals on 11/18/2013 00:48:31 MST Print View

"What's true for both counterfeit goods and illicit drugs is sooner or later you will have blood on your hands. Melodramatic but true."

Have watched Breaking Bad, can confirm.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: morals on 11/18/2013 07:44:17 MST Print View

this thread wouldn't have been complete without Breaking Bad reference

eric and Franco, quit trying to drift this thread back to original topic

I admit - I've played a couple illegally copied games before. I have a music CD that must have been illegally copied. I've copied vinyl onto casette - is it illegal to make a copy for yourself and listen to it or do you have to sell it?

I've heard some people that make music say they didn't mind small scale copying - more people listen to their music and this may actually stimulate more sales.

If someone does a large scale counterfeiting operation they should probably be prosecuted.

There are a couple websites that I use that are free. After a while I figure it's really useful and donate some money. PBS on radio and TV also. Maybe this is a good business model. Especially if the creator wants to make a living, cover expenses, and do something good but not get "Bill Gates" rich.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: morals on 11/18/2013 17:14:13 MST Print View

"First hit from my google search"

Thanks for the link, Ian. It's at least plausible, although the scepticism genes buried in my DNA whisper that if you want to really get support for your cause, link it to terrorism in our paranoid post 9/11 state of mind. Still, it is eminently plausible. Hizbullah is certainly not averse to that approach, and cunning enough to pull it off. Ditto Al Qaeda in the Maghreb. If it has also been proven conclusively enough to send someone to Sing Sing, as opposed to basing it on Kelly's word, that pretty much settles it. If you tell me that is the case, I'll take you at your word.

Sharon J.
(squark) - F

Locale: SF Bay area
copyrighting clothing designs on 11/18/2013 19:00:25 MST Print View

Saw this Ted talk last night on the topic of fashion and intellectual property. Thought it might be somewhat germane to the discussion here, although I have not made any attempt to verify her claims:

http://www.ted.com/talks/johanna_blakley_lessons_from_fashion_s_free_culture.html

Paul Andronico
(Jakesandwich) - M

Locale: S.F. Bay Area
XXL fits like US Medium on 11/20/2013 16:43:53 MST Print View

I received my XXL wind shirt today and it fits like a US medium from my perspective. At 5' 11" and 180+ pounds, the back length is good and the fit is athletic, but the arms are an inch or two too short and the hood pulls down on the top of my head. Very breathable material compared the 2013 Houdini.

D S
(smoke) - F
Crap! on 11/20/2013 16:57:36 MST Print View

Thanks for the sizing info, but that's not what I wanted to hear. I won't be able to fit into the XXL, so I guess I'm SOL.

And E
(LunchANDYnner) - M

Locale: Pacific Northwest
uhoh on 11/20/2013 17:21:10 MST Print View

Wuhoh, I should've gone even bigger. I'm normally at the upper end of a small and I ordered a large,.... Should've ordered an XL so I could fit some layers underneath.
Well, I'll just have to see how it fits when I get mine.

Thanks for the update.

Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
Re: uhoh on 11/20/2013 18:15:40 MST Print View

I ordered 2 and only received 1.

Don't think I'll get the other as they do nothing with feedback.

And yes, an XXL would fit like a medium with short arms.

Edited by awsorensen on 11/20/2013 19:32:44 MST.

D S
(smoke) - F
Simple on 11/20/2013 19:22:47 MST Print View

Contact Seller. If you don't get a response, file a dispute with Paypal. You should get your second shirt or get your $ back.

scree ride
(scree)
Too funny on 11/20/2013 19:48:47 MST Print View

Other then that, how'd it work for ya?

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
"Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in" on 11/21/2013 18:43:47 MST Print View

When I said that I was done with this thread, I meant it. I had moved on and really had no interest in revisiting it.

The only reason I'm re addressing this is I finally found the section of law which shows that I'm wrong. From what I've read at the below link, per the Code of Federal Regulation and CBP policy, you can bring one counterfeit item into the U.S.

What can I say. When I'm wrong, I'm wrong. My position, reasoning, and experience as to why you shouldn't support the black market remains but my legal argument is gone. I concede defeat.

http://www.cbp.gov/linkhandler/cgov/trade/legal/directives/2310-11a.ctt/2310-11a.pdf

Since I'm throwing myself on the sword. It was brought to my attention yesterday that my wording seemed to attack the OP. I was honestly surprised when I read that. I was certainly going after people on this thread and doing everything I could to bring on the apocalypse but nothing I was saying was directed at the OP and I deeply regret that I wasn't more specific about this along the way. She had no way of knowing that the item was counterfeit, that was clear to me and I thought to everyone, and I guess I mistakenly thought it was implied. I have already offered her my apologies in private and corrected one of my responses to make it clearer but I figured I might as well throw it out there.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in" on 11/21/2013 22:54:41 MST Print View

Ian, you are an honourable man. Thank you for posting this.

cheers

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in" on 11/21/2013 23:53:57 MST Print View

Color me surprised too. That it was codified to a number, specifically one. Usually it is something vague like "items of de minimis value" although I assumed it was simply "not allowed in the country" and only as a de facto matter did no ones care about small quantities of low-value items.

Interesting that, "Customs officers shall permit the arriving person to retain one article of each type accompanying the person. For example, an arriving person who has three purses, whether each bears a different unauthorized trademark or whether all three bear the same unauthorized trademark, is permitted one purse."

Ian, thanks for the update. Clearly it was an honest mistake on your part and working on cases involving commercial quantities, something you'd never deal with in your work.

Philip Bichard
(PXB) - MLife
Doing the right thing on 11/22/2013 07:00:51 MST Print View

This thread was so inspiring I was inspired to write a blog post so I wouldn't forget the lessons I learnt here.
http://www.sparkyhikes.com/2013/11/top-10-hiking-tips/

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Doing the right thing on 11/22/2013 07:09:14 MST Print View

What you got from this is :
"Don't buy imported gear".....

Including cars, phones, computers, clothes, oil etc.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: "Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in" on 11/22/2013 08:08:25 MST Print View

Roger,

Thanks for the kinds words.

David,

"working on cases involving commercial quantities"

Thanks for giving me an out Dave:)

As far as importation goes, Title 19 USC wades through some murky waters and it really takes a specialist who's familiar with not only the law but case law as well for their Circuit. If I were to encounter one of these cases (distributor), I'd kick it over to CBP or DHS/HSI like a hot potato. The case I have knowledge of wasn't mine; sorry if I implied otherwise as that was not my intent. Edit to add: As typical, it's not uncommon for multiple agencies to be involved in a single case from investigation to incarceration and beyond. The case as I presented it is factual but the IPR aspect of it wasn't me. I wish I could explain it better.

Now I'm really done.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 11/22/2013 09:50:28 MST.

Jon Leibowitz
(jleeb) - F - MLife

Locale: 4Corners
A review on 11/23/2013 18:20:28 MST Print View

For those interested, I just received mine. It is clearly a counterfeit, stolen off the production line, or perhaps they were defects that were tossed and "repurposed". There really is no way to know.

I say that it is clearly one of the above because of what I know with certainty now that I received one: First, it comes in a Jack Wolfskin plastic bag. Second, it says Jack Wolfskin in two places on the actual garment. And Third, the tag that came on the jacket is the official red and back Jack Wolfskin tag stating, "At home outdoors in wind and rain - JACK WOLFSKIN OUTDOOR APPAREL is your reliable partner in every situation........" in German, English, French, and Chinese. The tag even points to their official website of www.jack-wolfskin.com.

As to the actual wind shirt.... the thing is light and of seemingly very high quality (without being tested in the field). I got an XL and it fits me. I'm 6' and 160 pounds and usually wear mediums in nearly everything. It is very light and very breathable. The cuffs, entire bottom, and hood has elastic banding to ensure tight fight. The stowaway hood is nice but a little awkward when deployed. It seems very breathable. There is a zippered chest pocket which is a nice feature and the full-length zipper seems like it's decent quality. All in all, I gotta say this is going to me goto wind shirt next summer. I'll be testing it out this winter for its wind protection because it almost seems too breathable.

Edited by jleeb on 11/23/2013 18:27:07 MST.

Justin Baker
(justin_baker) - F

Locale: west coast best coast
Re: A review on 11/23/2013 19:02:05 MST Print View

"I got an XL and it fits me. I'm 6' and 160 pounds and usually wear mediums in nearly everything."

Are Asian people really that tiny?
I can't believe the sizing is so off.

Jon Leibowitz
(jleeb) - F - MLife

Locale: 4Corners
Re: Re: A review on 11/23/2013 19:04:56 MST Print View

I don't know if all Asians are, but apparently Chinese are ;)

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F - M
Re: Re: Re: A review on 11/23/2013 19:50:13 MST Print View

well looking at the colours, this might be "womens" sizing even if its labelled as unisex ...

a mens M is more or less a womens XL ... for those of us that crossdress ...

as to AZNs ... the AZNs in north america tend to be larger belly wise than those back in the homeland ... however the japanese due to excellent nutrition tend to be taller than the chinese or japanese decades ago ... and the korean are catching up, as are affluent chinese

while genetics does play a factor, nutrition especially in childhood is a major factor ...

you can easily see AZN sizing at the dead bird, westcomb, sugoi factory sales where all the AZN sizing, XS/S/M, are cleared out instantly ....

;)

And E
(LunchANDYnner) - M

Locale: Pacific Northwest
delayed on 11/23/2013 20:01:57 MST Print View

Sucks to hear that it could be stolen/counterfeit. Interesting though, that the tags actually point to the legitimate site. I've never bought counterfeit stuff before so I don't know what's standard practice.

My order is slightly delayed as they accidentally mixed in another person's order into mine and one of the two jackets I ordered got left out. chntrade contacted me officially through eBay to let me know of their goof and that my jacket has been sent out and to just keep the extra item as a gift.

So, they get some brownie points and break even from me for quick communication despite the delay. I'm a bit worried hearing about the sizes, as I ordered a large. I'm 5'6" and 155lbs, 38" chest. I'm usually at the upper end of a small and was hoping to get this to fit like a medium so I can have room to layer under it.

Oh well, guess I'll find out when I get it.

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Faux-dini": 2.3 oz. Windshirt, <$15 - Initial Review and Sourcing on 11/23/2013 21:50:35 MST Print View

Can someone please take a close up shot of the logo on that jacket ?

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: A review on 11/23/2013 23:57:01 MST Print View

"I say that it is clearly one of the above because of what I know with certainty now that I received one: First, it comes in a Jack Wolfskin plastic bag. Second, it says Jack Wolfskin in two places on the actual garment. And Third, the tag that came on the jacket is the official red and back Jack Wolfskin tag stating, "At home outdoors in wind and rain - JACK WOLFSKIN OUTDOOR APPAREL is your reliable partner in every situation........" in German, English, French, and Chinese. The tag even points to their official website of www.jack-wolfskin.com."

Counterfeits can be quite good. I bought a TNF pack that had the logo cast in all the hardware. The packaging and labels are easier to knock off than the product and might even come off the same printing line. The guys who do the sewing already know the printers--- might be family too. A lot of this stuff is sold on the side of the road and market squares in other countries and the packaging adds to the cache. As you have found out, there are many sizing standards worldwide.

This isn't new and it is widespread. We are generally insulated from these products by our government, but eBay creates a lot of holes, I'm sure.

Best of luck!

Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
Re: Re: A review on 11/24/2013 13:59:48 MST Print View

So I had a Kinsman Pullover from thru-hiker with M90.
It was the first article of clothing I made and the seams around the zipper weren't straight.

So I undid the seams, took the zipper and the outside fabric off and attached it to one of these wind jackets.
I was going to use 2 of these jackets, but didn't need to as I just forgot that the seams were off on the jacket and a total loss from it being that way.
Once I took the seams apart, the 2 lined up almost perfectly.

The only thing with the Faux is the sleeve length.
I would not get one of these jackets for any reason because of the sleeve length.
The only other flawed area on this jacket is the elastic around the sleeves and waist are way to tight.
Okay, the hood fit isn't so hot either.

With all 3 of these fixed, I would give the jacket a 9 out of 10.
With everything wrong, it's a solid 4.

Even at 2.3 ounces, it's a crapy fitting wind jacket.
I don't mind it that much for what I'm using it for but unless you have extremely short arms and no neck, this thing will look stupid on you if you wore it around.

Mine came in at 8.7 ounces with the 2.5 ounce insulation inside. The TNF next to it is 9.8.
I just wanted one of these for the full zip and no insulation in the hood.qwe

2er

3fg

4ty

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Faux-dini": 2.3 oz. Windshirt, <$15 - Initial Review and Sourcing on 11/24/2013 15:12:20 MST Print View

OK, close but no cigar :
JK China
JK Germany

Jon Leibowitz
(jleeb) - F - MLife

Locale: 4Corners
Re: Faux-dini": 2.3 oz. Windshirt, <$15 - Initial Review and Sourcing on 11/24/2013 16:02:00 MST Print View

Close but no cigar on the garment, but check out the tag....it's an exact replica.

tag


I'm thinking it's just a knock-off and they randomly chose Jack Wolfskin as the unlucky brand to market the thing. I can't even find an equal product on Wolfskin's actual website.

Edited by jleeb on 11/24/2013 16:16:02 MST.

Corbin McFarlane
(raven15) - MLife
Chinese Jacket on 11/24/2013 16:30:35 MST Print View

Yeah, this is a pretty typical Chinese jacket. I've looked for things like this over there, but never purchased because I had no way to assess weight, quality, or performance.

And-E, I am almost exactly the same size as you, and in China I wear XXL. So I think you will find it way too small.

Ron D
(dillonr) - MLife

Locale: Colorado
Re: Re: Faux-dini": 2.3 oz. Windshirt, <$15 - Initial Review and Sourcing on 11/24/2013 16:30:58 MST Print View

For what it's worth I sent a message to them asking if the windshirt was a Jack Wolfskin and if so which model. Their response was:
"Thanks for your message. I am sorry but it is not original Jack Wolfskin products.

Best wishes.

chntrade"

If you search on ebay you will also see the identical windshirt being offered by multiple sellers. It's most likely that chntrade is just a vendor(among several) that purchased the shells from a factory and is just dumping them cheaply on ebay. I didn't see any of the vendors attempting to claim them as Jack Wolfskin products in their description.

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: Re: Re: Faux-dini": 2.3 oz. Windshirt, <$15 - Initial Review and Sourcing on 11/25/2013 07:47:20 MST Print View

When I was in Nepal about 10 years ago, the Kathmandu vendors were hilarious. I bought an "Everest quality!" Noth Farce fleece because I couldn't resist.

I wish I still had it to take a photo for you, but the crooked North Face-logo embroidery actually said "Noth Farce". Loved it.

eric chan
(bearbreeder) - F - M
Sizing on 11/25/2013 08:05:44 MST Print View

From the testing of BPLers, im pretty sure is womens sizing on the jacket

Its funny as my entire AZN extendes family owns fake NF and other "brand" softshells and fleeces

We were talking about it the around the dinner table ... As long as its something simple like a non membrane softshell, fleece or windshirt, does it really matter as king as you know its a copy?

These items are very simple, and basically commoditized

Now for a rain jacket this might be a different story

;)

zorobabel frankenstein
(zorobabel) - F

Locale: SoCal
size measurements on 11/25/2013 14:27:17 MST Print View

Can one of you that received the jacket please measure a size medium or large and post here?

Valerie E
(Wildtowner) - M

Locale: Grand Canyon State
Noth Farce on 11/25/2013 14:39:43 MST Print View

"Noth Farce" clothing: OMG - I want one SO badly!!!! If anyone finds one, please share your source with me! That's just pure awesome.

Ian Schumann
(freeradical) - M

Locale: Central TX
Some levity on 11/26/2013 06:57:52 MST Print View

On the lighter side of things, I think we would all be enriched to consider the detailed description of water resistance for this piece, given toward the bottom of the eBay post:

"water and go up because the surface tension can form sweat tumble not permeate inside .reduce water is fabric adsorption, so that water can in the fabric surface stupid oh "through"

image of the said like pouring rain fell on the lotus leaf lotus leaf surface properties due to the rain ,in the page surface formation water ,gently shaking can decline"

I think if western manufacturers would just fire all their product copywriters and translate directly from Chinese, we could all smile a little more everyday.

:-)

Rafi Harzahav
(rhz10) - F

Locale: SF Bay Area
sizing on 11/27/2013 14:03:00 MST Print View

Well I just received the XL, and it's way too small. I wear a medium Houdini. Not sure it makes sense to even try the XXL. Has anyone that would wear a medium Houdini had success with the XXL?

Thanks,

rhz

Daryl Daryl
(lyrad1) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest, USA, Earth
Re: "Faux-dini": 2.3 oz. Windshirt, <$15 - Initial Review and Sourcing on 11/27/2013 14:21:20 MST Print View

I bought an xxl. It fits me but is a bit snug. I usually wear a medium or large.

My xxl weighs 2.8 ounces.

Cuff hems are small. I can barely get my hands through them.

I'm happy. Looks like a useable garment to me. Very breathable. Can't imagine how it could shed much in the way of rain.

Valerie E
(Wildtowner) - M

Locale: Grand Canyon State
Tight sleeve hems on 11/27/2013 16:22:56 MST Print View

Interesting that you're getting tight cuffs...I am the OP and the one I got (size M, bought a couple of months ago) has "normal" cuffs, proportionate to the overall size -- which, as I said in the original post, was more like a women's "small". The one I got for my husband (XXL, bought at the same time) also has "proportionate" cuffs - but when he finally tried his on, he said that the zipper was on the "wrong" side (i.e., a women's zip) -- so I guess the sizing is WOMEN'S, and I didn't notice, because I'm a woman! :~)

I haven't taken it out in the rain yet, but it sure shed water in my brief shower test!

Larry De La Briandais
(Hitech) - F

Locale: SF Bay Area
Re: Tight sleeve hems on 11/27/2013 16:35:53 MST Print View

"...it sure shed water in my brief shower test!"

You're not supposed to shower with a jacket on! ;)

Desert Dweller
(Drusilla)

Locale: Wild Wild West
Windshirt on 11/27/2013 18:27:10 MST Print View

We don't get much rain here...in AZ...hence the shower test. :-)

cody yochum
(uclacody0908)

Locale: Nor Cal
received on 12/02/2013 15:59:33 MST Print View

Just got my xxl. Sleeve length is a little short, and the elastic around waist is a bit tight (I am 5' 11", 150, athletic build, usually a medium). The material feels more breathable than my montbell tachyon. The zippers feel like you must be very delicate but thats like most ultralight gear I guess. I like it and might buy another.

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
Getting all wet on 12/02/2013 16:03:19 MST Print View

>"You're not supposed to shower with a jacket on!"

Because wearing a raincoat in the shower feels like using a . . . .

Delmar O'Donnell
(Bolster)

Locale: Between Jacinto & Gorgonio
Makes a Nice Gift! on 12/02/2013 21:35:56 MST Print View

I read the sizing instructions on the website carefully, converted all my measurements to metric, and ordered the size in which I was right in the middle of the specified range (which was Large). Jacket arrived, and...the wife gets a new wind jacket! Fits HER perfectly, she's 5'6" and of athletic build. She's thrilled, and I'm cold. At least I had the foresight to order the color SHE liked, in case this happened.

Edited by Bolster on 12/02/2013 21:43:06 MST.

VA S
(VA) - F
What size is wife 'normally'? on 12/04/2013 11:56:59 MST Print View

Delmar - I see your wife's height and that the Large fit well but do you happen to know what size she'd take if this were your average 'American-sized' jacket? Thanks!

And E
(LunchANDYnner) - M

Locale: Pacific Northwest
got mine on 12/04/2013 16:17:07 MST Print View

Just got mine and my fiance's. I ordered a large hoping for it to fit like a medium.... But it fits like a small which still works for me, I just can't layer a puffy under it. It'll work well with a grid fleece or something, though. The sleeves are still a tad short though. They end just above my wrist with no extra length to pull down lower. Also, the hood is a bit weird... It's a cone head/KKK hood style, and it doesn't quite come around far enough to cover my cheeks

My lady's medium fits her with room to fit a down jacket under it without any compression (she's an XS).


So, to recap: large fits like a small but the sleeves are short, even for a short person like me with no ape index.

Medium fits like a women's small and a woman who normally wears XS can fit a puffy under it.

Construction quality is pretty nice considering how cheap this jacket was. We'll have to see how it performs out in the field soon.

Edited by LunchANDYnner on 12/04/2013 16:22:23 MST.

Delmar O'Donnell
(Bolster)

Locale: Between Jacinto & Gorgonio
For VA S on 12/04/2013 18:27:02 MST Print View

VA S - check yr PM.

And E
(LunchANDYnner) - M

Locale: Pacific Northwest
not very water resistant on 12/04/2013 23:46:42 MST Print View

I ran the faucet over the sleeve and it shrugged the water off fine (aerated), but under the shower at 1/3 power, the water simply shot through two layers of fabric and my hand got wet immediately.

Upon closer inspection, the fabric weave is not very tight, like you would find on a Houdini or ghost whisper wind jacket or stoic wraith (pertex quantum gl).

I'm sure it'll breath very well, but I'll have to see how wind resistant it ends up being.

I'm going to remove the Velcro on the hood as I don't really feel the need to roll the hood away as I don't bushwhack or anything.

Edited by LunchANDYnner on 12/05/2013 07:52:53 MST.

VA S
(VA) - F
Thanks! on 12/05/2013 04:57:47 MST Print View

Thanks for the sizing and water test info And E! Thanks to you too Delmar, and I'll check my PM's once I figure out how! (Could I feel MORE like a newbie....looked a while and I'm sure it will make me laugh once I do figure it out :P)

And E
(LunchANDYnner) - M

Locale: Pacific Northwest
PM on 12/05/2013 07:52:04 MST Print View

The personal message gets emailed to the email account you set it up with. Check your spam or promotional/social folder if using gmail.

Rafi Harzahav
(rhz10) - F

Locale: SF Bay Area
"Manly" color choice on 12/13/2013 00:35:45 MST Print View

Hi.

Well, it seems that the consensus is that these are women's jackets. Nevertheless, I believe that the XXL would fit.

I ordered the "blue" (not sky blue) and found it to be kinda feminine in color. There's the dark green option. Have any of you guys ordered that color? Is it "girly?"

Thanks

rhz

cody yochum
(uclacody0908)

Locale: Nor Cal
dark green on 12/13/2013 01:11:55 MST Print View

Not girly at all

And E
(LunchANDYnner) - M

Locale: Pacific Northwest
not girly on 12/13/2013 01:47:14 MST Print View

I also ordered the dark green and it is not girly. I wish I had ordered an XL or XXL instead of the L, as I can't layer it over a puffy (but fits fine over a fleece).

If anybody wants to trade their XL/XXL for my L, drop me a PM

Edited by LunchANDYnner on 12/13/2013 01:47:46 MST.

Mike Stromsoe
(phstudio) - F - M

Locale: So. Cal.
Sizing on 12/13/2013 14:33:28 MST Print View

This is probably the sizing chart that they should have had on their Ebay page. I got it from the Japanese Montbell page. It should work for these women's Chinese garments.

There is no XXL on this chart but by extrapolating info from the men's sizing chart, a women's XXL windshirt should be about 101CM to 107CM.

Use row 2 for your chest size.


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

A J
(tahiti) - F
Here's an XXL on 12/13/2013 15:20:37 MST Print View

Here's my XXL, I'm 5'11", 165 lbs. I tried on a houdini at REI and I'd say this fits like a men's medium/large (I usually wear medium, and can fit my nano puff under this).

XXL

Edited by tahiti on 12/13/2013 15:22:45 MST.

Jon Leibowitz
(jleeb) - F - MLife

Locale: 4Corners
Re: "Manly" color choice on 12/13/2013 15:23:45 MST Print View

I have the green. It's awesome.

Jason G
(JasonG) - F

Locale: iceberg lake
tooooo small :( on 12/16/2013 18:10:32 MST Print View

So I finally just got mine in the mail and its way to small for me if anyone wants to buy it

Its a green in large. $16 shipped and no waiting 3-4 weeks for shipping from china

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: tooooo small :( on 12/16/2013 18:55:03 MST Print View

So for anyone who wants to buy one, paypal the $16 to me instead. This way you won't be disappointed in the product and the money will be better spent on beer or steak.

Velimir Kemec
(velimirkemec) - F
Faux-dini on 01/03/2014 10:30:14 MST Print View

Hi,

"I have the green. It's awesome"
+1 to that!

XXL fits like M but the sleeves are tad shorter to Cirrus wind shirt (RAB).
For 15$ it will make for a nice summer day windshirt..Since it's very breathable
it might work as walking shirt only?

Cheers

Delmar O'Donnell
(Bolster)

Locale: Between Jacinto & Gorgonio
Price Hiked to $35 on 02/07/2014 13:25:38 MST Print View

Price Hiked to $35. Bye bye, $13 jacket.

Edited by Bolster on 02/07/2014 13:26:24 MST.

Valerie E
(Wildtowner) - M

Locale: Grand Canyon State
RE: Price Hiked to $35 on 02/07/2014 14:43:05 MST Print View

HO-LEE crap! I wonder what's up with that???? This thread has been dead for a while, so I don't imagine sales are skyrocketing (unless some other group discovered these, and have been buying them like mad...).

That said, I take mine on every hike, and I think it's a great piece -- but I've never worn a Houdini (had one, briefly, but it was too small for me), so this is all I know.

Delmar O'Donnell
(Bolster)

Locale: Between Jacinto & Gorgonio
Ancient Wisdom on 02/07/2014 15:08:02 MST Print View

I believe it was Confucius who wrote:

"If Sei Gweilo likes,
The price you quickly hikes."

Edited by Bolster on 02/07/2014 15:09:34 MST.

Paul Hatfield
(clear_blue_skies) - F
Price increase on 02/07/2014 20:27:45 MST Print View

I sent the eBay seller a question asking them about the price increase.

It's a shame the price has gone up so dramatically. For some reason, I was thinking the jacket didn't have a hood... otherwise I would have gotten one. But it does have a hood.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Ancient Wisdom on 02/07/2014 20:34:14 MST Print View

I didn't know Confucius spoke broken English.

Delmar O'Donnell
(Bolster)

Locale: Between Jacinto & Gorgonio
Couplet. on 02/07/2014 23:13:44 MST Print View

My translation, and I'd break anything for a couplet.

Paul Hatfield
(clear_blue_skies) - F
Faux-dini: $17.63 on 03/11/2014 21:29:22 MDT Print View

Price is now back to a reasonable $17.63

Here's the link to the green version:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Unisex-Green-ultralight-uvioresistant-Waterproof-Wind-Coat-Cycling-Jacket-Jersey-/111113928497?pt=US_Cycling_Clothing&var=&hash=item19dee7ff31

Glenn S
(Glenn64) - M

Locale: Snowhere, MN
Re: Faux-dini: $17.63 on 03/12/2014 04:22:23 MDT Print View

Appears to be the same product with more colors for a lower price of $13.33 + $1.45 S&H here.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-ultralight-uvioresistant-Waterproof-Rain-Wind-Coat-Cycling-Jacket-Jersey-G-/261399212290?var=560294614914

Eric Osburn
(osb40000) - MLife
Killer deal for $15 shipped on 03/24/2014 22:15:32 MDT Print View

I picked one up for $15 and it's very nice for the money. I ordered the XXL and it fits great for me. I have short arms and a shorter torso and this fits just like a normal men's medium would. Very light, very nice.

Larry De La Briandais
(Hitech) - F

Locale: SF Bay Area
Re: Killer deal for $15 shipped on 03/26/2014 13:01:02 MDT Print View

I also ordered one, size XXL. It seems to fit like a men's large SHIRT, not a large jacket. The fit appears to be about the same as my dress shirts (32/33" sleeve length). I am currently 5'8" and 190lbs, all of the extra weight stored as a "spare tire". I can zip the wind shirt and it is not tight, but not loose either.

Edited by Hitech on 03/26/2014 13:02:14 MDT.

A J
(tahiti) - F
Different sizes/colors on 03/26/2014 13:35:39 MDT Print View

Just a note, I got the green and blue both in XXL. The green jacket fits like a mens large, the blue fits like a mens medium. They are different jackets with different cuts/logo placement/stuff sack placement.

Larry De La Briandais
(Hitech) - F

Locale: SF Bay Area
Re: Different sizes/colors on 03/26/2014 13:37:03 MDT Print View

Interesting, I got the green and felt it fit like a large.

BTW, where is the stuff sack placement on the green?

Also, BTW, mine weighed in at 74 grams (2.6 oz).

Edited by Hitech on 03/26/2014 15:01:32 MDT.

J Mag
(GoProGator) - F
Re: Different sizes/colors on 03/26/2014 14:09:48 MDT Print View

When you say fits like a large, does that include sleeve length?

I am 6'3 with arms to match and hate when sleeves are too short. It also doesn't help that I weightlift so my arms are big for my size. I would love to pick one of these up if someone my height has found they fit?

Edit: Or if anyone has found a substitute for a similar price I would appreciate it.

Edited by GoProGator on 03/26/2014 14:10:58 MDT.

A J
(tahiti) - F
Green on 03/26/2014 14:30:29 MDT Print View

Don't have it next to me, but I believe the stuff sack on the green is in the chest pocket. The stuff sack on the blue is in one of the hand pockets (if I recall correctly). I can take pics tonight.

I know the green has much more chest space which is why I'd say it fits like a large. I can't completely remember how the sleeves felt, but slightly longer than the blue would be my guess. I can take measurements.

Edited by tahiti on 03/26/2014 14:31:09 MDT.

Eric Osburn
(osb40000) - MLife
XXL Sleeve Length on 03/26/2014 23:43:33 MDT Print View

At least on the one I have the sleeve length is short, which works well for me but I'm 5'5" with regular length arms. I can't imagine the sleeves being long enough for someone over 5'10".

Larry De La Briandais
(Hitech) - F

Locale: SF Bay Area
Re: XXL Sleeve Length on 03/29/2014 16:45:55 MDT Print View

I measured the sleeve lenght and the underside seam is 20 1.2 inches. For comparison my dress shirt labeled 15 1/5 33/34 the underside seam is 21 inches. This is for the green one.

Andrew M
(minerat)
Another review... on 04/08/2014 08:57:23 MDT Print View

I received my XL.

I'm 5'8" 145 and I'm usually a small/medium in jackets (14 1/2 32/33 dress shirt size). This fits me really well. I haven't tried a mid layer under it yet, but it fits over a dress shirt really well and I feel like I have a bit of room for ~250 weight merino as well.

Thanks to everyone for the awesome find and reviews :)

Edited by minerat on 04/08/2014 09:01:48 MDT.

Kenneth Jacobs
(f8less) - F

Locale: Midwest
Bug Proof? on 04/08/2014 11:24:03 MDT Print View

I'm guessing because this wind jacket is 100% polyester, it is therefore not mosquito-proof? Is it only nylon that is bug proof?

TIA!

KJ

Edited by f8less on 04/08/2014 11:25:10 MDT.

Ellen Conley
(Pearl) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Price back down to $14.94 on 04/15/2014 19:51:05 MDT Print View

Price back down to $14.94. I ordered an XXL for my brother who wears a US XL and if it is too small for him I think I'll keep it! I can wear a US Mens Lg.

J Mag
(GoProGator) - F
Re: Price back down to $14.94 on 04/15/2014 20:38:36 MDT Print View

Mind sharing your height and sleeve length and what color you ordered? Are the sleeves long enough for you?

Glenn S
(Glenn64) - M

Locale: Snowhere, MN
Faux-dini XXL vs Tachyon LG on 04/15/2014 20:58:35 MDT Print View

Here's what I posted above, and a pic comparing the XXL in Blue, to a MB Tachyon Large in green. The price is up to $14.56 now though.

Appears to be the same product with more colors for a lower price of $13.33 + $1.45 S&H here.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-ultralight-uvioresistant-Waterproof-Rain-Wind-Coat-Cycling-Jacket-Jersey-G-/261399212290?var=560294614914


Xxl

The elastic waistband gives it a narrower tapered appearance than it really is, but it's still obviously much smaller. Same Jack Wolfskin brand, same 21-ish inch sleeves. Self storing chest pocket, no hand pockets. Non-adjustable elastic hood without brim. Elastic cuffs. Full length YKK Euro-style zipper. 100% nylon is a quieter and softer fabric than the Mont Bell. Tall collar when hood is up, providing a double layer around neck area. Seems to be a great blend of windbreak vs breathability and it does add warmth. Haven't tested waterproofness, but can't imagine it'd block much moisture. It might hold a good DWR spray down though.

I'm 5'10", 160#'s with a 40" chest and this just barely fits with a polypro thermal top on. I can not pull my hands in the sleeves at all, and the forward-double-elbow-block test feels like I'd rip out the back or blow out an elbow. But for just walking around, it's adequately roomy. One size smaller would be impossible to wear for me. Anyone bigger than me just wouldn't fit into an XXL. This isn't going to work over my medium WM flash puffy, but for $15, I have no buyers remorse and it'll be used for something. Loaner, backup, or just kept in the glovebox on the boat...

Edited by Glenn64 on 04/15/2014 22:28:23 MDT.

Kenneth Jacobs
(f8less) - F

Locale: Midwest
Re: Faux-dini XXL vs Tachyon LG on 04/15/2014 22:35:11 MDT Print View

Glenn-

Are these coming with tags that say 100% nylon? ...the eBay page says "100% Polyester". If yo could let me know what it is actually made of I would greatly appreciate it. TIA!

-KJ

Glenn S
(Glenn64) - M

Locale: Snowhere, MN
Re: Re: Faux-dini XXL vs Tachyon LG on 04/15/2014 22:41:59 MDT Print View

Hmm, the website does say polyester doesn't it?.Here's what's printed inside the collar.

Labelxxl

Kenneth Jacobs
(f8less) - F

Locale: Midwest
Re: Re: Re: Faux-dini XXL vs Tachyon LG on 04/15/2014 23:15:12 MDT Print View

Thanks Glenn!

KJ

J Mag
(GoProGator) - F
Re: Faux-dini XXL vs Tachyon LG on 04/16/2014 07:48:15 MDT Print View

This makes me a sad panda :( Sometimes being big has its downsides...

Thanks for the info though Glenn. Very helpful.

Tom D.
(DaFireMedic) - M

Locale: Southern California
Rockbros Jacket??? on 04/21/2014 22:02:45 MDT Print View

"Edit: Or if anyone has found a substitute for a similar price I would appreciate it."

---------------------

Anyone tried this one yet?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/ROCKBROS-Tour-de-France-Cycling-Wind-Coat-Rain-Coat-Green-/110863801948?pt=US_CSA_MC_Blazers_Sport_Coats&var=&hash=item19cfff5e5c

Looks to be similar, only it's available in a 3XL size. Priced at $19.99 with free shipping, so its close enough in price to catch my interest. There's a couple of other color options as well if you search eBay.

I'm 6'3", right about 190 lbs right now and I picked up one of the "Jack Wolfskin" labeled jackets from this thread in XXL. I've used it now on a couple of day hikes and it works well, but as with most other tall folks on the forum it ends up a bit short in the arms, in my case about 2 inches. When I find one that fits better, I'll give this one to my son.

I think I'll give that Rockbros jacket a try and order one tonight. If its anything like the other one discussed in this thread (only larger), it might be an answer for those of us over 6'.

John Jonas
(hjuan99) - MLife
I'll bite on 04/21/2014 23:03:11 MDT Print View

Ok...sure, I bought a green XXL for myself and a L blue for my wife....and for the sheer curiosity, a set of 6 lego minifigures. I'll be able to tell on the lego if they are super close or not even close, especially since my son already has 2 of the 6 minifigures.

Valerie E
(Wildtowner) - M

Locale: Grand Canyon State
RE: Rockbros Jacket??? on 04/22/2014 09:49:28 MDT Print View

Interesting. The fabric looks different (shiny!) from the Faux-dini in this thread, and presence of the mesh insert on the Rockbros jacket makes me wonder if it is really "breathable"...so it'll be great to hear your review when you get the jacket.

Tom D.
(DaFireMedic) - M

Locale: Southern California
Breathability on 04/22/2014 14:53:47 MDT Print View

I noticed this too, but the picture of the tag says that its breathable (yes, I know...), so I'm hoping that its a similar fabric as the original Faux-dini, and that the pictures just make it look shinier. There is another jacket under the "SOBIKE NENK" brand at the same price and also comes in XXXL (although with different measurements shown for their XXXL than the Rockbros). It doesn't look shiny at all in the pics, and shows it as the same material (100% Polyester Tricot & Flexible TPU) as the Rockbros. I actually chose the Rockbros to try because I prefer the green and the other one only comes in white.


I'm actually more concerned about the sizing and if its going to be similar to the original Faux-dini. I've seen others listed as "Asian sizing" or "Petite sizing", but this one doesn't say anything. An XXXL here in the states would be like a giant poncho on me. It does have a size chart in cm, but its seems that all of the jackets from Asia have a different size range. I'm just going with the XXXL and see how it comes. Again, its only $20, but it'd be nice if I got something I could use out of it.


I will post a report when I get the jacket.

J Mag
(GoProGator) - F
Re: Rockbros Jacket??? on 04/22/2014 15:02:18 MDT Print View

Yesssssssss. This pleases me...

Thanks for taking the bullet on this one. Can't wait to hear how it turns out (hopefully great of course).

Tom D.
(DaFireMedic) - M

Locale: Southern California
Rockbros first impressions..... on 04/29/2014 19:19:58 MDT Print View

I received the Rockbros wind jacket today. One week to ship from from China isn't too bad at all. As I mentioned, I ordered the 3XL size, hoping it would be the right fit. The good news is that it appears to be comparable to an XL (maybe a tad larger) here in the US. At 6' 3", 190 lbs, it appears to be the perfect size to allow the use of the Montbell UL Down or other insulating jacket underneath it. Sleeve length is just right for me with a little to spare. Here is a pic with the original Faux-dini in XXL for comparison:

 photo RockbrosXXXL.jpg

It weighs 4.0 oz on my scale, compared to the 2.7 oz for the XXL Faux-dini. I was hoping for a little closer to 3.5 oz, but it is a much larger jacket so it seems to be in the ballpark. It has elastic around the hood, but no drawstring, and no pockets. It comes with a small mesh stuff bag. The material appears to be a stronger, more durable material than the Faux-dini.

Now to the question of breathability. As was mentioned in the previous posts, it has a shinier, more raincoat like material, and does not appear to breathe nearly as well as the Faux-dini. Air definitely permeates the Faux-dini much better. I pressed my mouth against the Faux-dini and air clearly passes through. With the Rockbros, the material flexes outward like a balloon and doesn't seem to allow much air through at all. I realize that this is not a truly accurate test, but its not nearly as pourous as the Faux-dini. I have a feeling its going to be "semi-breathable", kind of like the Dri-Ducks material. It does have vents in the armpits which may help some, and it did come with a tag like the one pictured in the eBay ad assuring me that it had good moisture permeability, and of it's ability to allow body vapor to pass freely (they misspelled it) between the membrane. I am hoping they are right. I would have taken it up to the mountains today to try it out, but I am nursing an ear infection so that will have to wait about a week.

Because it looked like it might be geared more toward rain than wind, I threw it on and took a shower. While I believe it would get you through some drizzle and light rain if needed, it is clearly not a rain jacket and soaks through under the deluge of a shower fairly quickly. Its water resistant, but definitely not waterproof.

Bottom line - Size wise, it is exactly what I was hoping for. If it breathes a little better than I think it will, it may be a valid option for people up to 6'5" or so. I'm not sure yet if I will be taking it on a thru-hike, it will need some field testing and I have some concerns about the breathability. But either way, it will likely find a place in my daypack.

Edited by DaFireMedic on 04/29/2014 19:35:24 MDT.

Valerie E
(Wildtowner) - M

Locale: Grand Canyon State
RE: Rockbros first impressions on 04/30/2014 11:18:43 MDT Print View

Tom,
Thanks for the initial impressions review (very thorough!!!). It will be interesting to read the follow-up when you've had a chance to take it outside.

Get well soon!

Delmar O'Donnell
(Bolster)

Locale: Between Jacinto & Gorgonio
Champion @ Costco on 04/30/2014 12:28:26 MDT Print View

"Or if anyone has found a substitute for a similar price I would appreciate it."

Check the W's Champion Lightweight Jacket sold at Costco for $13.

E J
(mountainwalker) - MLife

Locale: SF Bay Area & New England
Current Faux-dini source and sizing? Costco Champion hooded? on 04/30/2014 13:15:16 MDT Print View

What are current good sources for the [breathable] Hooded Faux-dini? Is this the latest: http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-ultralight-uvioresistant-Waterproof-Rain-Wind-Coat-Cycling-Jacket-Jersey-G-/261399212290?var=560294614914

Is what the seller calls Dark Green to the right of the Yellow jacket in the center?

I'm looking for a U.S. Large for myself (6 ft tall, 175 lbs, 42 in. chest, 34 in. sleeves) and a U.S. Women's Medium for my wife (5 ft 6 tall, 130 lbs, size 6-8 depending on cut).

I think I'd be a Chinese XXL and what size would I order for the Ms.?

We have very breathable pre-2012 Patagonia Houdinis which are going strong, but could use a second hooded windshell as we use them so much we wind up having to wash our Houdinis often.

Tom, feel better soon.

Delmar, is that Champion jacket a) breathable b) hooded? How much does it weigh?

Thank you to all who tested and narrowed down sizing. Looks like a very nice find.

Edited by mountainwalker on 04/30/2014 13:29:52 MDT.

Kenneth Jacobs
(f8less) - F

Locale: Midwest
Bug-Proof? on 04/30/2014 13:34:40 MDT Print View

Has anyone determined if this faux-dini is bug-proof?

TIA

KJ

Tom D.
(DaFireMedic) - M

Locale: Southern California
Re: Champion @ Costco on 05/01/2014 16:44:03 MDT Print View

"Check the W's Champion Lightweight Jacket sold at Costco for $13."

------------


I happened to be driving by a Costco today after lunch, so I swung in to check this jacket out. It took me a while to find it, but finally did.

It looks to be a decent wind jacket, and the blue one appears "manly" enough to wear (the rest are clearly women's colors). But it looks to be made of a heavier material than the Faux-dini. I didn't bring a scale with me, but I would guess in the 6-8 oz range for the XL. I could very well be wrong. I'm hoping someone else will check it out as well and see what they think.

To answer EJ's questions, it does appear to be very breathable, but does not have a hood.

kristen buckland
(buckie06) - F

Locale: Colorado
Women's M on 05/01/2014 21:44:33 MDT Print View

I bought the XL from this link and it fits me pretty similar to a Women's Medium. Maybe a touch big but that lets me wear layers under it. I would not want to get a smaller size, i'm 5'10 and 150lbs and typically wear women's mediums


http://www.ebay.com/itm/261399212290?var=560294614913&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

Edited by buckie06 on 05/01/2014 21:46:19 MDT.

John Jonas
(hjuan99) - MLife
Just received Mine on 05/05/2014 14:54:25 MDT Print View

I'm 5'10 175lbs and bought a green XXL and it fits great in the chest...and...as previously documented, the sleeves are about 2 inches too short.

The green is a great color....I also bought a L blue for my wife and I think the blue is a bit too "feminine" so I'm glad I bought the green.

And....I bought some ShengYuan lego minifigs out of curiosity...and wow...I am blown away. Their ability to counterfeit is incredible.

J Mag
(GoProGator) - F
Re: Rockbros first impressions..... on 05/05/2014 17:50:54 MDT Print View

Think I'm going to have to pick up one of those rockbros. Very interested in how it would perform on a real hike.

I currently use a poncho tarp as my shelter, so it would actually be nice if the jacket was more water resistant for when setting up camp. That should also make it a better wind blocker obviously.

Shame that it's over an once heavier than the other one, but sounds like it would be worth it if the breathability is passable.

Tom D.
(DaFireMedic) - M

Locale: Southern California
Re: Rockbros first impressions..... on 06/03/2014 22:03:10 MDT Print View

Reporting back on my trials of the Rockbros jacket since I've had a chance to try out on a few day hikes and an overnighter, and I am giving it a positive review. I've only put in about 12 miles or so actually wearing the jacket while hiking, but so far it seems to breathe better than my initial impression led me to believe, and was comfortable when the wind was chilly. When it warmed up, there was some condensation visible on the inside, but very little and I never felt it. It definitely does not breathe as well as the Faux-dini, but it is not the sweat box that I was concerned that it might be just by looking at the material, and seems to breathe much better than something like Dri-Ducks, which I don't find very breathable. I'm satisfied enough to include it in my regular hiking gear and even on a thru-hike if I were so inclined.

Bottom line: If both the Faux-dini and the Rockbros were available in my size and if I could only choose one, I'd take the Faux-dini, just because it seems to be made of a bit more comfortable and breathable fabric, although I think the Rockbros may be a bit more durable and abrasion resistant. But being that Faux-dini is not available in my size, I believe that the Rockbros is a valid and affordable alternative that does the job.

BTW: I saw some jackets the other day that looked very similar to the Rockbros, same material as well, in a cycling shop for more than 3 times the money.