Forum Index » General Lightweight Backpacking Discussion » POP QUIZ


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Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
Re: POP QUIZ probably wrong on 11/02/2013 18:07:06 MDT Print View

Most people realize that they shouldn't be putting their dirty hands in there mouth.

When it comes to picking your nose, not so much.


There was a huge article (also posted here) about giardia a few years back.
The discussion on contaminated water was a huge shock to see just how few people got giardia from contaminated water.

The result of picking ones nose was 75% of the culprit from the spread of other people's fecal matter to yourself.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: POP QUIZ probably wrong on 11/02/2013 18:08:58 MDT Print View

"The result of picking ones nose was 75% of the culprit from the spread of other people's fecal matter to yourself."

That's why I stay away from the brown nosers at work.....

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: POP QUIZ probably wrong on 11/02/2013 18:11:39 MDT Print View

Hi Aaron

> Most people realize that they shouldn't be putting their dirty hands in there mouth.
> When it comes to picking your nose, not so much.
News to me. Infected with a giardia cyst up the nose? Odd.
Got a published reference for that?

Cheers

Aaron Sorensen
(awsorensen) - MLife

Locale: South of Forester Pass
Re: Re: Re: POP QUIZ probably wrong on 11/02/2013 18:14:14 MDT Print View

I would find it in the Forums Search, but it is next to impossible to search for something now.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: POP QUIZ on 11/02/2013 18:14:17 MDT Print View

"There was a huge article (also posted here) about giardia a few years back."

link please.

I stick with my answer from the Mayo Clinic

No reason to pick one's nose outside. Block one nostril, stoop and blow.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Re: POP QUIZ probably wrong on 11/02/2013 18:14:31 MDT Print View

You can pick your friend, or you can pick your nose, but you can't pick your friend's nose!

--B.G.--

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: POP QUIZ probably wrong on 11/02/2013 19:43:30 MDT Print View

"Infected with a giardia cyst up the nose? Odd."

That would depend on where the finger was before it was inserted into the nostril, I should think. ;0)

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: POP QUIZ on 11/02/2013 19:52:45 MDT Print View

"There was a huge article (also posted here) about giardia a few years back."

Not sure there was an article here, but there have been a few long and detailed threads, perhaps that's what you're thinking of. One linked to an article elsewhere (http://erikschlimmer.com/pdf/GiardiaMyth-Buster.pdf), but that's not available any more (or at least at the moment).

Threads:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=68224

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=68912

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: POP QUIZ on 11/02/2013 20:15:11 MDT Print View

Seems like most answers were right on to me. The only "really correct" answer is in a huge article that can't be found; quite the poop quiz.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Re: POP QUIZ probably wrong on 11/02/2013 20:34:02 MDT Print View

> That would depend on where the finger was before it was inserted into the
> nostril, I should think. ;0)
Amusing, but not obvious.

What gets transferred to a human is a giardia cyst. This is analogous to a small round egg. It has to reach the intestines, via the stomach, before the cyst can hatch into an active bug.

Exactly how a 20 micron cyst gets from the nose to the stomach and beyond is not obvious at all. Even if it was ... snorted?, it would end up in the lungs, not the stomach. From there it would be exhaled.

There is also the question of how often you pick your nose while walking, as opposed to drinking contaminated water or eating food with contaminated hands.

I want to see validated medical research before I believe. (This statement should be read exactly as it stands. Extrapolations are not valid.)

Cheers

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: POP QUIZ probably wrong on 11/02/2013 20:37:34 MDT Print View

"Exactly how a 20 micron cyst gets from the nose"

I don't know about the giardia cysts in Australia, but I believe in North America the minimum size is thought to be 1 or 2 microns. The full adult giardia can be 50 microns or so, but it is the hard little cysts that cause the problems.

--B.G.--

Jeffs Eleven
(WoodenWizard) - F

Locale: Greater Mt Tabor
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: POP QUIZ probably wrong on 11/02/2013 20:38:34 MDT Print View

You can pick your nose and you can pick your friends, but you cant wipe your friends on the couch.

Eric Blumensaadt
(Danepacker) - MLife

Locale: Mojave Desert
"BEAVER FEVER" on 11/02/2013 20:39:06 MDT Print View

Giardia ain't called "beaver fever" for nuttin'.

This month I was hunting in northern Nevada's Ruby Mountains. The ONLY water available was from the south Fork of the Lamiolle Creek which was full of very active beaver dams.

Yes, gentle readers, beavers have been known to poop in the water and they don't wipe either.

I boiled all cooking water and treated drinking water with chlorine dioxide tablets.

I was very careful to use hand sanitizer after getting water from the stream.

Nevertheless upon returning home I took a stool sample to my clinic's lab for a gieardia test. Thankfully it was negative.

P.S. I always, but always use hand sanitizer liberally after pooping. When cooking for others I make it plain to onlookers that I am using hand sanitizer before cooking.

Edited by Danepacker on 11/02/2013 20:45:51 MDT.

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
POP QUIZ on 11/02/2013 20:42:41 MDT Print View

A lot of trail food consumption does not involve utensils.
Stuff like GORP, chocolate ,dried fruit is hand to mouth food.
So to me the ones that possibly contaminate themselves by picking their noses are much more likely to contaminate themselves eating.
The argument that most know not to put dirty hands in their mouth does not hold because most also would know not to shove a brown finger up their nostrils.
To elaborate, if you are not aware that your fingers have been contaminated by others when picking your nose you would not also be aware of that when you eat (munch as you go not necessaraly at meal time...)

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: POP QUIZ probably wrong on 11/03/2013 00:02:50 MDT Print View

> in North America the minimum size is thought to be 1 or 2 microns.
Reference?

"Giardia cysts are typically ovoid, and measure from 10 to 15 µm in length, and from 7 to 10 µm in width"
US EPA

I am willing to believe they could be a littlle smaller, but not by much.

Cheers

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: POP QUIZ probably wrong on 11/03/2013 00:13:23 MDT Print View

I don't know what they are currently teaching in wilderness first aid classes, but about thirty years ago they were teaching that in order to be safe, we needed to filter one order of magnitude smaller than the typical size, because there is a spectrum of sizes. I understand _typical_, but I wouldn't want one of those skinny ones to get by.

--B.G.--

Mike W
(skopeo) - F

Locale: British Columbia
Giardia on 11/03/2013 01:21:17 MDT Print View

I suspect far fewer people are actually infected in the back-country than they think.

Since the symptoms of a giardia infection don't show up for anywhere up to 3 weeks, how do you really know if you got it from back-country sources? If your trip is a month long then you could be pretty certain but other than that, I'd bet it was from the fast food joint you went to on the way out of town!

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: POP QUIZ probably wrong on 11/03/2013 03:07:09 MST Print View

Hi Bob

Not arguing.

Cheers

Buck Nelson
(Colter) - MLife

Locale: Alaska
Giardia in the backcountry on 11/03/2013 05:15:25 MST Print View

Since the symptoms of a giardia infection don't show up for anywhere up to 3 weeks, how do you really know if you got it from back-country sources?

Even Welch, perhaps the most quoted skeptic, has conceded Published reports of confirmed giardiasis among outdoor recreationists clearly demonstrate a high incidence among this population.

The source of infection can be difficult to determine with absolute certainty with individual cases. Many thru-hikers report giardiasis though, and in the big picture the CDC has data showing backpackers drinking untreated water are in a high risk group for giardiasis, while "fast-food eaters" are not in a recognized high risk group for giardia.

The CDC has used their huge data base to come up with the following:
Anyone may become infected with Giardia. However, those at greatest risk are

Travelers to countries where giardiasis is common
People in child care settings
Those who are in close contact with someone who has the disease
People who swallow contaminated drinking water
Backpackers or campers who drink untreated water from lakes or rivers
People who have contact with animals who have the disease
Men who have sex with men


There's a reason physicians often ask "Have you been camping? Did you drink any untreated water?"

The answers lie in verifiable data.

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
All of the above. on 11/03/2013 05:28:16 MST Print View

Let''s take it as fact that Giardia can pass through the nose to infect. Further, it is known that drinking untreated water can cause the sickness as can food contamination from others. Add these and other potential causes like swimming in contaminated water, washing your face with contaminated water and there are now a multitude of potential causes. Often threads focus on water treatment and giardia but all these other factors are what skews the data.

But here's the good news........ As a solo hiker, many of the potential human related causes to away.