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Fred Thorp
(BFThorp) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How many times must I tell you that it is subsidized? on 10/26/2013 11:23:57 MDT Print View

Dean buddy, I tried to simplify this for you as best I could. I tried to keep some of the tangent variables out of this so you could understand the basic math. I have done my best to ignore some of your comments regarding how the free market didn't work and now the forced competition(oxymoronic no?) will, to avoid you more confusion. You seem to put little weight on the things we know will happen, yet lean on unlikely scenarios. You tell us you are in the industry, but you don't seem to have a clue about compliance and the regulatory issues, current or projected, or basic human behavior, and the insurance business. While you seem to be able to net out some of the expected costs in this shell game, you don't seem to comprehend the huge administrative expenses this creates and the hardship on the private sector. The current system has lots of holes. We can all agree it needs work. But...I'm afraid you've been sold on a bill that will have little effect on the real issue... At a huge cost.

Tea party talking points? Really?

" Say, here's a thought- why don't we actually wait a bit and see if it works out?"
We have no choice.

Edited by BFThorp on 10/26/2013 11:31:30 MDT.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Conservative / Liberal on 10/26/2013 11:41:45 MDT Print View

I'm at a point in my life where I've really come to hate these terms as they are meaningless to me.

I'm a liberal as defined by the dictionary as I try to avoid group think and dogma but I'm a conservative based on my ideas of spending less than we earn as a country?

I'm a liberal because I support gay marriage but in reality this is a conservative position as this is a right already guaranteed by the 14th Amendment.

I believe that the 2nd Amendment is an individual right but I believe that universal healthcare should be one of the highest priorities for our country so I'm a tea bagging conservative and bleeding heart liberal at the same time?

Edit to add: I've been called a tea bagger and a bleeding heart liberal which is why I threw those terms in there.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 10/26/2013 11:48:46 MDT.

Dean F.
(acrosome) - MLife

Locale: Back in the Front Range
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: How many times must I tell you that it is subsidized? on 10/26/2013 11:48:21 MDT Print View

Damn, Fred. Condescending much?

"Simplify" stuff for me? I "don't comprehend" or "don't have a clue?" Wow. Hubris. I have to tell you, that all sounds remarkably arrogant. (Can I ask what you do for a living, or why you feel that you are so competent to judge such things? Because maybe I'm talking out of the side of my face, here.) I feel that I have made cogent points. You can disagree with them, but dismissing them in the way that you are is arrogant. I'll call that one like I see it. I OTOH have expressed uncertainty on many of the issues, and have even pointed out ways that the ACA can fail, even if I find them to be unlikely. I generally find it to be a bad sign when someone has such CERTAINTY that they are right on such a complex issue, as you you seem to. That smells of dogma.

You accuse me of weighting factors preferentially, and ignoring others. Again, wow. Look in the mirror, Brother. At least I am capable of expressing anything other than certitude in my own infallibility. Frankly, yes, IMO you sound like you're scaremongering- regurgitating all of those Cruz talking points that have been so thoroughly debunked. So, check out FactCheck or Politifact. Sort of like my questions about how you feel about COBRA and letting poor people die in the street, you're furiously trying to avoid the subject. You just refuse to open your mind even a tiny bit on this. Just as a thought experiment why don't you pretend that you might be misinformed, and look up all of this ACA stuff on those sites, and actually read the whole articles. See what you think of them. (Some of them *gasp* are actually critical of Obama.) It is ALWAYS a good idea to read something from the other side of a debate with an open mind once in a while. If your opinions aren't changed then you can honestly say that you have considered the issue seriously. There is an old saying about religion: "I fear the man of only ONE book." I would expand that to a fear of a man of only one news source...

Heck, I try to be balanced and informed. I have read the stuff that Cruz et al have said about the ACA, for instance. I then researched it- including via those fact checking websites- and found most of it to be outright deceptions.

And I'll tell you a dirty secret- I used to be quite opposed to the ACA. You can probably find threads here on BPL where I made that stance. But that position was based on a poor understanding of what it was and what it intended to accomplish. Once I had the time to get above the propaganda (from both sides) I was at least willing to try it. If nothing else, it seems much more rational than COBRA. I also found that the right-wing propaganda on this issue was much more egregious lies than the left-wing stuff. (Sort of the opposite of the gun debate.) Now my biggest problem with the ACA is all of the crappy provisions that were included for political reasons.

So, I can be swayed on issues. (Another recent one involves L.L. Bean, oddly enough.) I'm willing to hear the other side. Can you say the same? And by that I don't mean arguing with people on an internet forum- that doesn't count. I mean actually researching an issue in a way that includes opinions dissenting from your own, rather than just listening to demagoguery.

I mean, if you come back in a few hours and say that you went through all those critiques on the fact-checking sites, and you still think that the ACA is absolutely, 100% destined to cause the downfall of America... ok. At least I would know you aren't just a FoxNews robot.

You have made some decent points. I can give credit where it is due. (OTOH, according to you absolutely everything I've said is nincompoopery.) The ACA has problems- I've said it many times. Taken as a whole, though, I'm not inclined to buy your argument that it will lead to economic ruin, the collapse of the US healthcare system, communism, white flight, global warming, herpes, inter-species marriage, or any other disastrous effect which you care to attribute to it.

EDIT--- I'm not sure where this came from:

"I have done my best to ignore some of your comments regarding how the free market didn't work and now the forced competition(oxymoronic no?) will, to avoid you more confusion."

One of the problems in the past was that there wasn't a free market. Heck, I'm all for markets- that's one of the things I like about the ACA- that it did away with the insurance monopolies that were in place in many regions. Do you think monopolies are a good thing? As a conservative, I surely don't.

Edited by acrosome on 10/26/2013 12:17:01 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re Kat on 10/26/2013 12:07:45 MDT Print View

So, I wikipediaed "Sabra and Shatila"

Horrible - massacred a bunch of people in retaliation but then it turned out they retaliated against the wrong people

And further horrible that there are so many attrocites in the world

Who is the leader that Obama shook the hand of? If it was the Israeli leader we better not go there, that would send this down the chaff toilet worse than arguing about guns : )

Nelson Mandella spent years (decades?) in prison. Rather than plotting his revenge, he learned their language and became a fan of their sports (soccer?). They probably killed more people than at Sabra and Shatila? Reconciliation is more important than revenge.

I don't think you can blame Obama for shaking the hand of a world leader. You can't just ignore past attrocities either. Difficult to come up with solutions.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Hike on 10/26/2013 12:10:47 MDT Print View

@Ken H.
From last weekend, actually Thursday/ Sunday


Ferns


Dogwood


Roots

Poop


Boulder

Forbidden

Forbidden

Edited by Kat_P on 10/26/2013 12:14:16 MDT.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Jerry on 10/26/2013 12:15:36 MDT Print View

I agree, we better leave than one be. I still disagree with you about it, but that issue would start Chaff War 3.

Dean F.
(acrosome) - MLife

Locale: Back in the Front Range
Justice/ on 10/26/2013 12:18:52 MDT Print View

I do understand the old saying that "Under an eye for an eye the whole world is blind." On the other hand, sometimes we must make sacrifices in the interests of justice. Finding the balance is difficult, and likely to be a neverending struggle and debate until the human race goes extinct.

Dean F.
(acrosome) - MLife

Locale: Back in the Front Range
To Fred on 10/26/2013 12:19:59 MDT Print View

I'll tell you what, Fred. I have grown weary of this discussion, and it is clearly getting acrimonious, which I regret. I have noticed that happening more and more during political discussions in recent years, and I hope that it is merely a sign of the times rather than something inherent in myself. So I'll bow out now and let you get the last licks in so that you can feel good about yourself. This is my parting gift to you, by way of making amends. I have to take my kid to 'Boo at the Zoo', anyway.

If we meet on the trail someday, please don't shiv me. :)

Edited by acrosome on 10/26/2013 12:28:40 MDT.

Fred Thorp
(BFThorp) - F
Condescending on 10/26/2013 12:27:53 MDT Print View

Not at all. Not fond of the circle game. You continue to ask questions that have been answered and retread old ground. If you want to convince someone how great this thing is going to be, you might find it easier if you picked someone more distanced from the industry.

Edited after reading some of your edits and last post.

I can't tell you what I do for a living on a public forum because of compliance and regulatory policies. If you would like to know, you can request through a PM ... Include your email address. I will not respond with a PM.

No worries, I don't use shivs... I'm a gun guy. :)

Edited by BFThorp on 10/26/2013 12:58:36 MDT.

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Tea Party Haters on 10/26/2013 12:42:16 MDT Print View

certainly no reason to suspect the information going around in a for profit industry, that is doing very well at profiting, would be biased toward preserving that very profitable industry, over making strides towards becoming a nation that has a functional health care system.

Perhaps finding someone further from the profits would be beneficial for discussion.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Tea Party Haters on 10/26/2013 13:09:22 MDT Print View

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: fantastical on 10/26/2013 10:44:41 MDT Reply Report Post Print View

"You just seem to snipe at others in chaff...not only this thread but many others. I do too at times. You're not perfect....go take a hike and explore...post a trip report...offer advice on hikes...(which you obviously rarely do..... )"


"I am far from perfect, you are right about that. I do hike, I don't post trip reports of places that have dozens of them already. I rarely have better advice than others give here.
I snipe, but it is only noticeable to you because it isn't toward the people you dislike. I also refrain from posting when incoherent"


and what does incoherent mean? That I am a drunk? Is that what you are getting at? Well Kat, I am diabetic, and I rarely drink. Nice of you to judge someone that you barely know....no? In fact that is rather rude to be honest. But then again you are the moral fiber of BPL. I don't take drugs neither if you need to know....have not in many many years.....but if you want to talk about your vices, let's shoot away sweety.

"I try and walk my talk, but I fall and fail too. I think I try pretty hard to maintain a civil tone"


Really? then why call someone a drunk Kat? Is that civil...me not think so! Hypocrite....You pass judgement on others here constantly but play by a different law....BUT I am not a pansy...far from! I can call a spade a spade and not worry about it, and YOU, girl, are a spade. YOU owe me an apology. And as for your hiking....yeah....have fun going to the same 2-3 places each time...Here is a hint, variety is the spice of life....go and explore some. Going to the same few places gets old. SEKI and Yosemite beckon you. lol....then maybe you can give advice about places you have been. F me

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Chaff supreme. on 10/26/2013 13:16:01 MDT Print View

On to the rescue! Isn't this out of your realm? Normally you are attacking the big BPL machine and not rescuing your friends!

"She has her right to voice an opinion. Have you Ken H. voted in every single election that you could? Every one? Or only the one you have an opinion on?

Wow. Looks like the old days of Chaff when posts here and gear swap are the majority. I don't really know what you are all on about. Just an observation.

Dean started the longest running Chaff thread in BPL history with the Carbon Flame War. I'll bet a gun thread would run pages and pages. Always do"

Most elections Ken, yes. I have a BS in Poli Sci....so I have a love affair with politics. And that was a jibe towards her. Everyone has an opinion and they are obviously allowed to say as they please. But I do find it somewhat hypocritical and smug to have someone that is NOT a citizen of this country to have beliefs and criticism of this country when they do live hear and do not take part of the political system that is offered.

A question to Kat, why live here and not be a citizen. Curious....and that is not a pointed question, just wondering. That will help me understand your situation much better.

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
jeez on 10/26/2013 13:16:48 MDT Print View

She just meant that sometimes you post like a raving lunatic that is borderline BSC.

Fred Thorp
(BFThorp) - F
Re: Re: Re: Chaff supreme. on 10/26/2013 13:25:29 MDT Print View

I have a BS in Poli Sci....

Ken would you answer my question about the satire link?

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Chaff supreme. on 10/26/2013 13:33:08 MDT Print View

Now now....I never said I was a good student :) I'm just a product of California's State college system. I barely got in and barely graduated....but I have that piece of paper!!!

and Kat did mean that....She has seen me in my glory of drunkeness at some BPL gatherings...but then again, I was not the only one that over indulged at these events. So yeah, I do take it that way.

Edited by kennyhel77 on 10/26/2013 13:34:05 MDT.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Chaff supreme. on 10/26/2013 13:35:13 MDT Print View

But let's make this very clear....again. I am a diabetic and drinking and having a insipid disease like Diabetes is not a good match. Now where is Cameron, the resident troll to come and join in!

Edited by kennyhel77 on 10/26/2013 13:36:50 MDT.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Attacks on 10/26/2013 13:39:04 MDT Print View

I did jab, Ken. During the gun debate you posted stuff that some would call incoherent. You never got back when you said you would. On one post you said that you and I do not share values, then one page later you said the opposite. When I said I cannot vote you said that I still should have opinions and favor the left, since I am a woman, then today you write I should shhhhhhh since I cannot vote.
There have been incoherent posts. Maybe you were just tired, I don't know. I should have made my point more veiled, but I did not. My bad.
I should explore more places, ok.

Want to talk about my "vices" ..go for it. It'll be pretty boring.

Edited by Kat_P on 10/26/2013 17:29:14 MDT.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Meanwhile in Canada..... on 10/26/2013 13:44:35 MDT Print View

Ken,

I somehow doubt that you'll object to this Canadian's opinion...

.Obama

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Attacks on 10/26/2013 13:44:50 MDT Print View

Ohhhh sorry that I did not get back in due proper time! I work two jobs and if you noticed, I don't post here that much because I am busy....then, on top of that, life gets in the way and you forget that you were SUPPOSED to answer a post. My bad. Again, your tone sucks at times, but you feel you try to do a good job at it....fail

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Attacks on 10/26/2013 13:47:20 MDT Print View

No Ken, you are misunderstanding me. You said you would get back to an issue, then wait a day and just jump in with another rant, never going back to unfinished business. I am not saying you abandoned a thread.