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jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: fantastical on 10/24/2013 14:27:35 MDT Print View

"denies coverage strictly on underwriting risk"

that is pre ACA

with ACA your friend will be covered

I knew you'de come around and embrace ACA eventually

David Olsen
(oware)

Locale: Steptoe Butte
County Hospital on 10/24/2013 14:45:49 MDT Print View

"Property taxes support the co. hospitals, i.e. for people that can't pay, etc."


There are no free hospitals anywhere near where I live.

Many places have only for-profit hospitals, they often do get tax dollars, but then charge higher prices too. So the average person here pays 1/3 more in their hospital bill for their services than if everyone could pay their bills. 33% of users don't pay their bills!

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: County Hospital on 10/24/2013 14:59:23 MDT Print View

And more from the lunatic fringe........

.http://dailycurrant.com/2013/10/23/sarah-palin-claims-jesus-celebrated-easter/

Fred Thorp
(BFThorp) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: fantastical on 10/24/2013 15:05:28 MDT Print View

that is pre ACA

Ok. So now where does he go? I'll keep you updated on his continued struggle with this. He's one mad mofo. You can keep your existing healthcare promise seems to be another load of horse apples.

Also hearing deductibles going way up as much as 4x and reduced caps.

Fred Thorp
(BFThorp) - F
Re: Re: County Hospital on 10/24/2013 15:17:10 MDT Print View

@ken
Never let the truth stand in your way... or you're too lazy to find any facts.

Snopes


By the end of the day links and excerpts referencing this article were being circulated via social media, with many of those who encountered it mistaking it for a genuine news item. However, the article was just a bit of political humor from the Daily Currant which spoofed the debate over secularization of religious-based holidays and the stereotype of former vice-presidential candidate Sarah Palin as ill-informed about historical matters.

As noted in the Daily Currant's "About" page, that web site deals strictly in satire:
The Daily Currant is an English language online satirical newspaper that covers global politics, business, technology, entertainment, science, health and media.

Q. Are your news stories real?

A. No. Our stories are purely fictional. However they are meant to address real-world issues through satire and often refer and link to real events happening in the world.
Last updated: 24 October 2013

Urban Legends Reference Pages © 1995-2013 by Barbara and David P. Mikkelson.

Read more at http://www.snopes.com/politics/satire/easter.asp#DWKkYvighsQUDJfA.99

d k
(dkramalc) - MLife
Re: County Hospital on 10/24/2013 15:37:03 MDT Print View

And even where there are county hospitals, they are under funded and over loaded - that's why not everywhere has them. And the patients who can't pay for their own care there tend to only go when the situation is dire enough to require them to utilize the more expensive ( for the taxpayers footing the bill) emergency room services ( which also clogs the emergency room making it slower for the cases that ERs are designed to treat. This is something I saw over and over again for thirty years, working in just such a place.

Wouldn't it just be better, for them and for us, if they were provided good accessible non emergency services so that they didn't have to wait till things became dire? Or is that something you are opposed to? It seems to me that your attitude is " oh well, if it gets bad enough they can just go to the county ER."

Fred Thorp
(BFThorp) - F
Re: Re: County Hospital on 10/24/2013 15:56:18 MDT Print View

D K

"Wouldn't it just be better, for them and for us, if they were provided good accessible non emergency services so that they didn't have to wait till things became dire? "

Absolutely. So...Why didn't we start there instead of F-in with the whole system? What do you expect will happen with the uninsured going forward? There will be some, some say a lot. Still the same problem.

David Olsen
(oware)

Locale: Steptoe Butte
I love my Tea Party Friends, just not their sins on 10/24/2013 16:29:11 MDT Print View

"Wouldn't it just be better, for them and for us, if they were provided good accessible non emergency services so that they didn't have to wait till things became dire? "

Absolutely. So...Why didn't we start there instead of F-in with the whole system? What do you expect will happen with the uninsured going forward? There will be some, some say a lot. Still the same problem."

---

If, like where I live, 1/3 of the system is not working (1 in 3 can't pay their medical bills), why would we keep that system? Sounds like it could use a lot of "F-in".

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: fantastical on 10/24/2013 17:25:16 MDT Print View

"Ok. So now where does he go? I'll keep you updated on his continued struggle with this. He's one mad mofo. You can keep your existing healthcare promise seems to be another load of horse apples."

I don't get it. ACA will help him. If he's mad, it's about pre ACA healthcare???


"Also hearing deductibles going way up as much as 4x and reduced caps."

You can get severasl choices of higher premium lower deductable or vice versa.

No caps.

It's like you're just mad in general and want to lash out at ACA because it's there.

Dean F.
(acrosome) - MLife

Locale: Back in the Front Range
Re: Re: fantastical on 10/25/2013 07:38:48 MDT Print View

"It's like you're just mad in general and want to lash out at ACA because it's there."

I think that's the problem with most of the rabidly anti-ACA people, frankly. Either that or its more of the annoying "I hate it just because Obama wants it" mentality- despite the absolute FACT that this plan was first proposed by the Republicans. I mean, I'm not 100% satisfied with it, but it isn't the apocalypse or anything. But as a rational moderate I'm just annoyed at the irrationality and lies about the subject from the right, and I'm sort of growing one eyebrow and digging in my heels on the issue. (I would have specified "radical right", but the truth is that there is no longer a moderate right in this country. Even McCain has sold out.) That's my lot, in general- even as a right of center moderate I'm turned off by the underhandedness and magical thinking of the modern right.

Approximately 100% of the things that anti-ACA folk complain about are easily debunked by spending 30 minutes on FactCheck or PolitiFact- denial of coverage, denial of mammograms, senior losing coverage, paying more for medications, etc. EVERYTHING! (So, take your own advice, there, Fred...) It's what I've been doing every time I see some ridiculous statement by a Tea Partier. Just go to one of those websites and search "ACA" and you'll see the huge list of disproved spin from the anti-ACA crowd. (Not that Obama hasn't stretched a truth here and there, too, but he's not NEARLY as egregious.) Hell, I've got FactCheck and PolitiFact bookmarked...

I blame the recent polarization of the media. Such folk aren't really interested in fact-checking. They just want to plop down in front of FoxNews (or, conversely, MSNBC), get carried away by the groupthink, swallow the untruths, hear absolutely nothing dissenting, and get radicalized.

Edited by acrosome on 10/25/2013 07:50:53 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: fantastical on 10/25/2013 08:04:26 MDT Print View

"I blame the recent polarization of the media."

I assume you mean "on" the media

I think it goes back to our favorite boogyman - all the money in politics

They want the politicians to pass laws that allow them to make more money

Obviously, people won't vote for that, so issues are created like abortion or ACA that the people can argue about while the real "wizards behind the curtains" pass more laws to enrich them even more

And any Republican that doesn't go along with the radical agenda, will get primaried. Grover Norquist will dump a bunch of money in and get a Tea Party candidate elected.

The Maine senator who is a moderate, is retiring because she doesn't want to put up with it.

The media is screwed because if they don't go along, they won't get interviews. They get a lot of advertising dollars from people with vested interests.

60 Minutes does a lot of pieces, like 60 Minutes interviewed Grover Norquist who openly admitted what he does and wasn't the slight bit apologetic. PBS does a lot of pieces, like Frontline. People must be too busy buying the latest iphone or whatever...

Fred Thorp
(BFThorp) - F
Re: Re: Re: fantastical on 10/25/2013 08:18:34 MDT Print View

@dean and the gang
"It's like you're just mad in general and want to lash out at ACA because it's there."

Let me try to get to the point one more time about healthcare. I'm against it because it was pitched to SCOTUS as a tax and sold to us as a coverage alternative. Something I don't think is the Feds role, not that anyone really gives a shit anymore about the legal limits of the fed.

The second laughable argument, big picture, is that rates will come down, or this will cost less. Great, but at what cost? Services? Additional taxes?
Big picture...stick with me here Jerry. You can't mathematically add more insured, mandate coverage options, and add a big layer of government employees to monitor it, compliance regulations etc., ... and make it cheaper over all. Yes I'm considering the er costs that we ALREADY pay for. It's just impossible. I've seen nothing in the bill to actually address cost reduction but the additional compliance ARE expected to add. But, who the hell really knows what in the document? The fact that the rollout is a big FUBAR just legitimizes my view of the fed.

Back to the topic.

Judging from the comments, I'm guessing none of the tea party haters have ever attended a meeting.

Dean F.
(acrosome) - MLife

Locale: Back in the Front Range
Re: Re: Re: Re: fantastical on 10/25/2013 08:19:34 MDT Print View

I assume you mean "on" the media

You presume much. I meant what I wrote.

The media has polarized, with MSNBC on one hand and FoxNews on the other. I blame this as the cause of worsening political polarization. Thus, I blame "the polarization of the media." I then non-sequitured a bit into complaining about the American populace in general, so that may have confused you.

Ultimately, the media polarization is the media's fault. For decades there was a blatant liberal bias in the US media, which the liberal media itself has only recently acknowledged. This led to annoyance on the right, and thence to FoxNews, which made the liberals feels justified in polarizing MSNBC even further the other way, etc.

By the way, I just spent a while trying to find one true thing that Cruz has said about the ACA on FactCheck and PolitiFact, and I failed. The best I found was "overblown." If anyone can find one I'd be interested in being directed to it- it might prove enlightening.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: fantastical on 10/25/2013 09:00:14 MDT Print View

"I assume you mean "on" the media

You presume much. I meant what I wrote."

Okay, then we're pretty much in agreement (not that it matters : )

Except you blame the media itself for being polarized.

Some truth to that but most of the blame, I think, goes to the big money that's in control of the country.

Like FOX was created by a wealthy person who wanted that message out. He hired people to say what they say. It lost a lot of money for years which Murdock didn't mind spending to get that message (propoganda) out.

And 60 Minutes and many PBS shows actually get out a lot of the truth, but enough people aren't listening.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: fantastical on 10/25/2013 09:12:32 MDT Print View

"You can't mathematically add more insured, mandate coverage options, and add a big layer of government employees to monitor it, compliance regulations etc., ... and make it cheaper over all."

That makes logical sense and I agree

But another, bigger, factor is that the health care industry (pharmaceuticals, devices, insurance companies, doctors, hospitals,...) has been raising costs much faster than inflation until now it's a huge part of the economy and dragging everything down. The government, private companies, and individuals are having a hard time paying for it and don't have enough left over to pay for everything else.

ACA can help reign that in. For example, the exchanges allow for companies to compete and people to select the best. The insurance companies can get their suppliers to compete. We need to do health care that's effective and not do what isn't. Select the cheapest care that works, like using generic drugs rather than brand name advertised on TV brands.

The media likes all those expensive commercials for brand name drugs so they are demotivated from reporting on how this costs more without being more effective.

ACA isn't perfect, but it's what was politically possible. We should identify what doesn't work and fix it rather than threatening to repeal it.

Dave Stoller
(BreakingAway)
Tea Party Haters on 10/25/2013 09:14:27 MDT Print View

"Approximately 100% of the things that anti-ACA folk complain about are easily debunked by spending 30 minutes on FactCheck or PolitiFact-"

Sort of a blanket statement there, and 100% refutable to boot! ; )

PS - This is probably from a different thread but I am still curious why the New York Times Corp should have first amendment rights but not ACME Inc.

Fred Thorp
(BFThorp) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: fantastical on 10/25/2013 09:59:04 MDT Print View

@jerry

Don't take this wrong way

"ACA isn't perfect, but it's what was politically possible. We should identify what doesn't work and fix it rather than threatening to repeal it."

Do you understand how completely idiotic that statement sounds?

Let's pass a big bill, full of unknowns, that nobody reads, with consequences that can't be identified or measured (but started before it was ever passed), that adds another metric shitload of compliance on the private sector, another layer of government, a bunch more IRS agents, at a cost that would make even BIG OIL cringe, and just fix stuff as we go along. Great plan. Is that the way you tackle a problem? Anybody?

It's fundamentally unsound.

Edited by BFThorp on 10/25/2013 12:19:51 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: fantastical on 10/25/2013 10:43:31 MDT Print View

"Don't take this wrong way"

Nice to have a civil tone... before you bash the hell out of me : )


I think the idea that no one read it, consequences that can't be identified/measured... is just propoganda "talking points" - if they repeat it often enough people start believing it


I'll agree that legislation is too complicated - too many pages. All legislation these days is that way. We should make it simpler. The long legislation provides lots of places for people to put special goodies to political contributors.


For example, there's a law that says the Forest Service can't charge a fee unless outhouse, picnic table, garbage service is provided. Too much detail. The law should just say people can't be charged for just going into National Forest. Forest Service can make rule that if they maintain a trail, they can charge fee for trailhead parking.


I don't know how the legislature got into the mindset of too much detail in bills.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: fantastical on 10/25/2013 11:44:40 MDT Print View

http://tv.yahoo.com/news/republican-precint-chair-resigns-lazy-blacks-daily-show-153557019.html



GOP and racism....glad 2014 is around the corner. ...time for The Libs to take control of The House. The demise of The GOP is upon us and cannot come soon enough.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: fantastical on 10/25/2013 11:59:02 MDT Print View

No "spiking of the ball" premature celebration, Ken, you're going to jinx things : )