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Ken Miller
(Powderpiggy) - F

Locale: Colorado
$17,000,000,000,000.00 and counting on 10/18/2013 12:47:10 MDT Print View

Didn't take long to use the new credit card.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/oct/18/us-debt-jumps-400-billion-tops-17-trillion-first-t/

Can't wait for the economy to finally get some good growth % and have inflation jump to double digits.

Edited by Powderpiggy on 10/18/2013 12:51:31 MDT.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
$17,000,000,000,000.00 and counting on 10/18/2013 18:48:32 MDT Print View

Go ahead...i'm fully expecting to be the "sacrificial lamb" here....(sigh)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mII9NZ8MMVM




d

Edited by bigfoot2 on 10/18/2013 18:50:26 MDT.

Richard Lyon
(richardglyon) - MLife

Locale: Bridger Mountains
The $17 trillion deficit on 10/18/2013 20:01:52 MDT Print View

Let's give credit where credit is due. When Clinton left office in 2001 we had balanced budgets. What happened after that? In increasing order of contributing to our national debt:

1. War in Iraq. A war of choice.

2. War in Afghanistan. Another war of choice. (I don't recall Afghanistan attacking the USA.)

3. The Bush II tax cuts. Never intended to be temporary and a classic and undisguised plan to buy Republican votes with taxpayer dollars.

[These are documented, my fourth is my personal opinion.]

4. Reaganomics. Accurately described in 1980 as voodoo economics by Reagan's running mate George H. W. Bush.
Made deficit spending ("borrow and spend") politically correct for Republicans and encouraged unneeded and excessive off-budget funding for defense.

Don't get me wrong - the Democrats are also to blame, maybe equally. When they controlled government the handouts were massive and vote-buying too. Occasionally however Democratic programs benefit all Americans, not just the wealthy and middle class. I'd rate that coincidence more than public spirited - when it comes to the prime mover among politicians each party is the same. All are more interested in election/re-election than the public interest.

I wish there were some way to throw all of them out.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: The $17 trillion deficit on 10/18/2013 20:11:14 MDT Print View

The other big factor is that the recession caused less taxes, more spending on things like food stamps.

A big reason for the recession was the deregulation that occurred during Clinton, pushed by Republicans, Clinton went along with it, so maybe equal blame to both.

Got to include how Brooksley Born tried to reign in derivatives but she was smacked down by the weasle Greenspan, and Clinton administration people like Rubin, Summers, and Levitt, so place that blame mostly on Clinton.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: The $17 trillion deficit on 10/18/2013 21:37:29 MDT Print View

N/M had my facts wrong.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 10/18/2013 22:44:26 MDT.

Ben 2 World
(ben2world) - MLife

Locale: So Cal
The $17 trillion deficit on 10/19/2013 04:35:34 MDT Print View

A huge amount like $17T, there are going to be more than just one or two reasons. Adding to the above, let's not forget our foreign misadventures in Iraq and Afhhanistan! If folks like Mccain had their way - we would have sunk into the expensive quagmire that is Syria - and who knows where else!

Edited by ben2world on 10/19/2013 04:36:17 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: The $17 trillion deficit on 10/19/2013 07:07:33 MDT Print View

Richard's #1 and #2 are Iraq and Afganistan

Ken Miller
(Powderpiggy) - F

Locale: Colorado
We can all breath easier on 10/19/2013 08:09:54 MDT Print View

Now that we found a way to blame the republicans. Of course Obama is doing something about the deficit, "the deficit is failing at it's fastest level ever" is because it was $1,100,000,000,000.00 in a single year under his watch. He has never completed a budget cycle.

By the way, the "Bush tax cuts" had the greatest tax rate reduction in the lowest bracket, 15 to 10% and benefited the largest group of people.

Also, tax receipts, I refuse to call it revenue - you have to work for revenue, are the highest ever last year. They were previously highest under Bush not Clinton.

Clinton is always looked at as an economic model, he was at the right place, right time.

Huge reductions in defense spending, huge productivity increases due to technology, expansion of a global economy and unprecedented growth in the stock markets.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: The $17 trillion deficit on 10/19/2013 09:04:24 MDT Print View

WTC 1993
Khobar Towers
U.S. Embassy Tanzania
U.S. Embassy Kenya
USS Cole
9/11

With the possible exception of the Khobar Towers, all of these attacks have a nexus to Afghanistan and state sponsored terrorism. Had I been the Commander in Chief, I'd have fought it another way (to win), and with more troops, but I completely support our war in Afghanistan. Paraphrasing General Colin Powell, you avoid war at all costs but when you commit, you fight it and win it. Our problem is not our military but the inept civilian leaders which are handicapping them; both Bush and Obama.

History has shown that sticking our heads in the sand and begging the terrorists to stop attacking us is ineffective.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 10/19/2013 09:30:31 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: The $17 trillion deficit on 10/19/2013 10:09:28 MDT Print View

Agree totally - the "Powell Doctrine" - we should have quickly completed Afganistan - the U.S. soldiers are great, generals not so much, civilian leaders committed war crimes as far as I'm concerned

I think the lesson Bush II learned, was that when his father attacked Iraq, that war ended too quickly so he didn't get re-elected

So, Bush II stayed in Afganistan long enough to get re-elected. Killing 100,000s of people just to get re-elected is a war crime in my book.

Hard to criticize Obama too much though, he ended one war and is well on the way in the second war. Things are way too complicated and unknown to us whether he could have ended them sooner, which would have been better, which is my criticism.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: We can all breath easier on 10/19/2013 10:15:40 MDT Print View

"Now that we found a way to blame the republicans."

The Republicans indignantly claim that the Democrats are responsible for the deficit, but they are, if anything, more responsible themselves although there's plenty of blame to go around.

You are one sided and only blame Obama, but at least you don't do Hitler mustaches.

I am objective and see blame on both sides, but correctly put more of the blame where it belongs, on the Republicans : )

And the over-riding problem is that we allow almost unlimited political spending (bribes) which both parties partake. The Republicans though, are part of the current Supreme court case to allow even more bribes, so once again, they are worse, objectively speaking.

Ben 2 World
(ben2world) - MLife

Locale: So Cal
Re: $17,000,000,000,000.00 and counting on 10/19/2013 12:46:05 MDT Print View

Richard's #1 and #2 are Iraq and Afganistan

@ Jerry - Oops, how right you are! Well, let's say it bears repeating...

@Ian - Sure, we can easily destroy a country like Afghanistan or Vietnam overnight if we really want to. But let's face it - exterminating an entire people or nation is really not an option this day and age. So IMHO, anyone who believes we can control a nation that flatly refuses to be controlled is failing to learn the lessons in both Nam and Afghanistan! They will simply let us in - then bleed us with a thousand cuts!

And so long as enough people still hold to the view that more boots will guarantee ultimate victory - I believe this nation will again be tempted to repeat its folly. As they say - those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. And one ingredient to learning a lesson like this is humility - a quality now sorely lacking in the world's sole superpower.

Edited by ben2world on 10/19/2013 13:13:22 MDT.

Ken Miller
(Powderpiggy) - F

Locale: Colorado
Objective or Irrational on 10/19/2013 13:40:45 MDT Print View

Saying Bush sent men and women to die for his re-election is irrational.

I do agree that there's too much money in politics. The public sector unions are a conflict of interest and they should not be able to make political contributions.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
$17,000,000,000,000.00 and counting on 10/19/2013 14:18:52 MDT Print View

"Hard to criticize Obama too much though, he ended one war and is well on the way in the second war."

Not true, Jerry. We are still sending in replacement troops and equipment (ie: fresh meat). Obama has actually tried to cut a deal to keep our forces there indefinitely. Look it up. I know for a fact my son is over there installing million dollar generators right now. Why do that if we intend to leave in 2014? Afghanistan is too strategic to just up and leave. Iran would just waltz in like they did in Iraq. If we really wanted to win the hearts and minds over there, we'd be installing septic systems, toilets and clean water for them, instead of high-tech generators they have no hope of understanding or maintaining. All part of the Military-Industrial complex. Obama is just as bad (or worse, based on his rules of engagements that are getting our troops killed over there), than Bush. Both awful, in my opinion. Sad.


Matt

Edited by bigfoot2 on 10/19/2013 14:26:46 MDT.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: The $17 trillion deficit on 10/19/2013 14:44:14 MDT Print View

"History has shown that sticking our heads in the sand and begging the terrorists to stop attacking us is ineffective."

History has also shown us a few other things that we still seem to have trouble understanding: 1) No foreign power has ever succeeded in subduing the Afghans, they just don't make very good pets; 2) That when we are constantly fighting "terrorists", year after year, always in their countries, we might do well to reflect on just why it is that they are willing to fight and die in such large numbers to take a few of us with them; 3) and to reflect even further on why it is that we have never prevailed in a single one of these fights. Hint: It is not solely because we have handcuffed our military. It wasn't true in Vietnam or Iraq, nor is it true in Afghanistan. Nor will it be true if we are foolish enough to invade Syria or Iran, particularly the latter.

Perhaps it is time to figure out what it is that has them so riled up and deal with these root causes politically and economically. To do otherwise is truly sticking our heads in the sand and will eventually bleed us white economically, socially, and politically.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: $17,000,000,000,000.00 and counting on 10/19/2013 14:46:53 MDT Print View

"And one ingredient to learning a lesson like this is humility - a quality now sorely lacking in the world's sole superpower."

+1

When you are a super power, humility comes one hard lesson at a time. Some learn it more quickly than others. In that regard, we are clearly not the brightest bulb in the chandellier.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Objective or Irrational on 10/19/2013 15:08:44 MDT Print View

"Saying Bush sent men and women to die for his re-election is irrational.'

There's no taped recording of him saying that, you have to add 1 + 1

From http://www.historycommons.org/entity.jsp?entity=mickey_herskowitz:

Bush Jr, before being elected president, said:

"‘[My father] could have done anything [during the Gulf War]. He could have invaded Switzerland. If I had that political capital, I would have taken Iraq.”"


Mickey Herskowitz was hired to write autobiography of Bush Jr. but they fired him because he wasn't sufficiently positive about Bush. He spent many hours interviewing Jr. He said the Jr. told him:

“One of the keys to being seen as a great leader is to be seen as a commander-in-chief,” Herskowitz remembers Bush saying. “My father had all this political capital built up when he drove the Iraqis out of [Kuwait] and he wasted it. If I have a chance to invade Iraq, if I had that much capital, I’m not going to waste it. I’m going to get everything passed I want to get passed and I’m going to have a successful presidency.” Herskowitz later says he believes Bush’s comments were intended to distinguish himself from his father, rather than express a desire to invade Iraq.


It's kind of hard to figure why Jr. attacked Iraq. None of the stated reasons are rational.

But he talked about "if I have a chance to invade Iraq", being a great leader by being "seen as commander-in-chief", and "if I have that much capital ... I'm going to get everything passed I want to get passed"

The only thing that makes sense is that Bush invaded Iraq for political reasons. Can't prove it beyond reasonable doubt in a court of law though. Herskowitz adds that disclaimer so it's not clear.

I don't think it irrational

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
$17,000,000,000,000.00 and counting on 10/19/2013 16:14:37 MDT Print View

I'm almost finished reading a book by Rory Stewart (Scottish writer/adventurer/historian) called The Places In Between.
It is the account of his walk across Afghanistan in 2002.
Reading that it becomes very obvious why an army can't win a war there.
You can spend a lot of money trying, but can't win or really change anything.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
$17,000,000,000,000.00 and counting on 10/19/2013 16:16:00 MDT Print View

From now until February 7, 2014, the U.S. Department of the Treasury can borrow as much as it pleases. Jack Lew and company aren't wasting any time. From October 16 to October 17 (that's overnight), public debt outstanding jumped $328 billion, from $16.747 trillion to $17.076 trillion. To be clear, that $328 billion has already been appropriated - approved by Congress - so it's not new spending. Still, the Treasury Department sure has gotten the new fiscal year off to a bang of a start, eh?

Wow. Just, wow.

debt

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: $17,000,000,000,000.00 and counting on 10/19/2013 18:04:15 MDT Print View

"Sure, we can easily destroy a country like Afghanistan or Vietnam overnight if we really want to. But let's face it - exterminating an entire people or nation is really not an option this day and age. "

Who said that? Please don't put words in my mouth. Exchanging gun fire is a small (but extremely important) part of modern war fighting. There are other missions which need to be accomplished, much of which is logistics for not only our military but for the country we've occupied. It's far easier to keep land once you've seized it than it is to continuously seize it over and over again. For that you need boots on the ground.

"As they say - those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it."

Obviously this cliche needs modification to "those who selectively study history are doomed." Hell, America has already forgotten about 9/11 so how can I expect for anyone to understand the post WWI mess that is the middle east today.

While you guys are gushing over Clinton, you seem to selectively forget that he starved our intelligence community of funding and our military was defunded in a way to make it lean but not mean. I'm not speaking about the troops themselves but adapting the equipment and mission to the future of warfare which isn't an ocean of Soviet tanks in the farmlands but terrorists in a multitude of theaters.

You are also forgetting the series of terrorist attacks (which I so kindly listed for you) which were for all intents and purposes unanswered by the U.S. On top of this, we removed our troops from Beirut after the barracks bombing under Reagan and Somalia after the battle of Mogadishu (again Clinton). We taught the terrorists time and time again that if they strike us, we'll do nothing in return and it took them parking a couple airplanes in American skyscrapers for the U.S. to finally get into the business of killing terrorists like we should have been doing all along.

I don't disagree that our war in Afghanistan should have began after the Soviets left using our civil affairs to help them build up their infrastructure. We didn't and allowed for Afghanistan to become the terrorist cesspool it was on 9/11.

But maybe I'm wrong. Let's send an envoy over to the 'stans and tell them how super sorry we are, open up some dialogue where we can all share our feelings, and see how it works out.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 10/19/2013 18:11:17 MDT.