New Material. Feedback Wanted.
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Lawson Kline
(Mountainfitter) - M

Locale: LawsonEquipment.com
New Material. Feedback Wanted. on 10/17/2013 12:49:09 MDT Print View

Over the last few years I have worked to design a new shelter material. Now that the dream has become a reality I would like to get feedback from the MYOG crowd.

The base material is a 30D nylon Ripstop. On one side its laminated with an ultra thin PET film and on the other side its coated with silicone. The result is a material that is lightweight, strong, ultra waterproof, low stretch, great tear resistance, UV resistant, and quite affordable.

In its current configuration it weighs 1.75oz per square yard. While not ultralight. For how many boxes it checks, I don't think it can be beat by silnylon, cuben fiber or anything else out there. The only thing I might add is a dyneema X ply (Like Xpac) between the film and woven nylon to help add even more tear resistance and make it look that much cooler. Problem is it costs more and adds .25oz to the overall weight of the material. So its it worth it? As MYOGers what would you pay per yard for such a material? I have plans to sell it by the yard. So I look forward to everyone's thoughts.

Thanks,
Lawson

edvin mellergÄrd
(Edvin) - F
subject on 10/17/2013 13:33:11 MDT Print View

Awesome! Extra strength is always nice but I'm not that big of a fan of the x ply in Xpac. Sure it makes it stronger but it also makes the fabric "stand out" over the x ply meaning a lot of the wear is concentrated over it. Same with folding, it always folds around the reinforcements weakening that spot.

So how strong is the fabric and how much would the dyneema add? And does it still stretch a lot when wet?

Valerie E
(Wildtowner) - M

Locale: Grand Canyon State
Re: New Material on 10/17/2013 13:39:53 MDT Print View

Lawson,
I dabble in MYOG, and I think it sounds quite interesting for several applications I can immediately think of... So, with the dyneema, it would weigh about 2oz/sq yd (maybe not SUL, but still pretty UL - compare to Goretex, for example).

It sounds interesting for applications like the bottom of a bivy sack, the main compartment of a backpack, and maybe something like gaiters/mitts, etc.

I'm sure it wouldn't appeal to the SUL'ers, who wouldn't want anything heavier than 1oz/sq yd, but they are still a relatively small group (albeit maybe a majority in YOUR client base).

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: New Material. Feedback Wanted. on 10/17/2013 14:18:14 MDT Print View

Thanks for working to come up with new better material

1.5 oz sil is strong enough and waterproof enough for a shelter so increasing this and adding weight (and I'm guessing cost) doesn't add any value

has to be lighter

it could be good for a backpack, although my sil backpacks are waterproof and have never broken so even there it's not useful, but that's just me, most people consider sil not strong enough

the fact that it's not so stretchy is good for both backpack and shelter so maybe...

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: New Material. Feedback Wanted. on 10/17/2013 14:36:45 MDT Print View

maybe it would be good for a floor?

d k
(dkramalc) - MLife
Re: Re: Re: New Material. Feedback Wanted. on 10/17/2013 14:44:56 MDT Print View

I would definitely be interested; I think the non-"x" version appeals to me a bit more, but I can think of uses for each. I presume you don't want to carry both?

Daryl Daryl
(lyrad1) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest, USA, Earth
Re: New Material. Feedback Wanted. on 10/17/2013 14:55:49 MDT Print View

Lawson,

I'm a bit out of the mainstream for myog tents and packs so keep my comments in perspective.

The fabric wouldn't interest me.

For tents I like a cuben fly (.75 oz) plus a solid inner nylon tent (.7 ounce or so). So a total weight of about 1.5 ounce per square yard gives me a double wall tent. I don't like single wall tents.

For packs I prefer breathable fabric. I don't want waterproofing on the fabric.

Erik G
(fox212)

Locale: THE Bay Area :)
Re: New material, feedback wanted. on 10/17/2013 15:26:08 MDT Print View

Hey Lawson,

I think the fabric has potential for backpacks and maybe groundsheets, but not so much for tarps/shelters. For backpacks, both versions interest me, but more so the non X-ply version. I really think cuben fiber is the bee's knees for tarps/shelters. I'm somewhat familiar with your past cuben shelter designs, and I'd love to see them for sale.

Speaking of which...When are you gonna send me those shelter designs to model for you?! :) (My offer from awhile ago still stands if you're interested)

Re price, I'd expect to pay somewhere around what the lighter silnylons cost for the non x-ply.

Bummer that selling the foam pads didn't work out in the long run. I recall how much work it was to make and sell them. Oh well, more time to focus on shelters! :)

Edited by fox212 on 10/31/2013 14:49:52 MDT.

Christopher *
(cfrey.0) - M

Locale: US East Coast
If you are trying to drop weight ... on 10/17/2013 15:37:20 MDT Print View

I would think the strength of a PET laminate would permit a lower denier base fabric.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: New Material. Feedback Wanted. on 10/17/2013 17:09:12 MDT Print View

> The only thing I might add is a dyneema X ply (Like Xpac) between the film and
> woven nylon to help add even more tear resistance and make it look that much cooler.
DON'T.
Where the X ply threads cross over is a high point which always wears through. X-Pac fabric from DimPoly has this problem.

Get the weight down a bit more and it could be very interesting. Regardless of the glamour, 59 gsm (1.75 oz) will be seen as 'too heavy'. Perception is everything ...

Cheers

Lawson Kline
(Mountainfitter) - M

Locale: LawsonEquipment.com
Wow on 10/17/2013 19:42:12 MDT Print View

Wow I am totally surprised by the feedback. Most people complain about misting and stretch with silnylon. This material solves both problems at only .25oz more.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Wow on 10/17/2013 20:08:27 MDT Print View

I think perhaps more folks would be interested if you used say a 15 denier fabric to cut down the weight some.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Wow on 10/17/2013 20:12:11 MDT Print View

Just to give my opinion, not be critical of anyone, but

I think "misting" is a non problem - sure if it rains hard I may feel a little "mist" but it's not enough to get anything wet. It doesn't take hardly any "mist" to be noticeable.

And the Shield from thru-hiker doesn't have this problem (just based on Richard's measurements). It is waterproof as a floor in my experience.

Stretching is a minor problem. The flat felled seam that runs into a corner tie-out does stretch. Polyester thread will break in the several inches closest to the corner, but if you do a zigzag stitch it won't.

It does stretch a bit after I set it up so an hour later I have to re-tension the tie-outs.

If you could make it not stretchy at the same weight as sil that would be useful. Or I could just use Cuben which is lighter and doesn't stretch.

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Wow on 10/17/2013 20:58:48 MDT Print View

Hi Lawson

> Most people complain about misting and stretch with silnylon.
'Complain' does not mean the silnylon is responsible for either.

The misting is simply condensation on the inside being knocked off by large drops (in 99% of the cases). Your fabric will not solve that.

Stretch can be essential in bad weather, if properly used. No, a tarp won't like a 60 mph wind, period, regardless of the amount of stretch. But I won't make a tunnel out of Cuban because it lacks stretch and cannot handle shock loading. (And the stitch holes grow like mad under tension.)

So one could suggest that you are offering no benefits for .25 oz more weight. Well, maybe useful for a groundsheet in extreme wet weather, but what's the washing machine life like? (The washing machine test tells us how the fabric handles being crumpled up again and again.)

But, KEEP trying! Get the weight down to match or be just slightly below silnylon, and see what the reaction is like. Hey - I'll look at a sample!

Cheers

Lawson Kline
(Mountainfitter) - M

Locale: LawsonEquipment.com
Sagging not Stretch on 10/17/2013 23:00:10 MDT Print View

Stretch is good. Sagging is not. Silnylon sags. Its like an old women that has had 10 kids.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Sagging not Stretch on 10/18/2013 07:13:36 MDT Print View

You mean an hour after you set up your tent taut, it's sagging so you have to re-tighten the tie-outs?

Normally this isn't a big deal, but if it's raining I don't like to have to go out in the rain, or if I set it up at end of day and go inside it'll be sagging in the morning when I get up. It would be nice not to do this.

Lawson Kline
(Mountainfitter) - M

Locale: LawsonEquipment.com
Exactly on 10/18/2013 08:13:05 MDT Print View

Exactly Jerry. With this material there is no more re-tensioning your tarp or tent. You set it and the next morning the material isn't all saggy and droopy like silnylon. It more like a PU coated Silnylon the big compaines use. Except this material actually has good tear strength. Over 10lbs warp and fill. The dyneema x ply will increase this number further.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Exactly on 10/18/2013 08:49:32 MDT Print View

Not to be difficult, but since you're doing market research

If it didn't weigh more and I was making a tarp I'de consider using it

If it weighed a little less I'de be more interested

And E
(LunchANDYnner) - M

Locale: Pacific Northwest
maybe heresy.... on 10/18/2013 09:49:31 MDT Print View

I know this is backpacking LIGHT and all.... But I feel like there's too much emphasis on weight being the be all end all.... I'm super happy that my pack is much lighter now (around 11-12# before food and water), but at that point I stop carrying about exactly how many grams/ounces I'm carrying since it's so comfortable as it is. Plus, better leg workout with more weight, right, folks who skip leg days??

Anyways, I think it's really cool you're making a new fabric, and more importantly, like your other products, it'll be made in the USA, I assume, so that alone makes it worth it. I've never really had a problem with sagging tent fabric, but that's because I use a short length of shock cord at my vestibule tie outs, which is the only area that really has any potential to sag on my double rainbow.

With as light a pack as I carry now, I'm happy to focus my attention on comfort and convenience. Plus, cuben is prohibitively expensive for me.

Andrew F
(andrew.f) - F - M

Locale: San Francisco Bay Area
Re: New Material. Feedback Wanted. on 10/18/2013 09:58:40 MDT Print View

I like that you're trying to be innovative... but it's probably not a product I would buy. It sounds like it fills roughly the same market as PU coated materials (more waterproof, heavier, albeit this stuff is probably stronger) and nobody buys tarps made with PU these days.

For an 8x10 foot tarp, the material weight is about 6.3 oz for 0.7 cuben, 12.4 oz for silnylon, and 15.5 oz for your fabric.

Two products I would buy from you: a cuben modified pyramid tent like the SMD Haven, and a 2-person cuben version of the Spinnshelter/Patrol Shelter.