Forum Index » Chaff » California bans lead for all hunting.


Display Avatars Sort By:
Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: California bans lead for all hunting on 10/13/2013 11:06:31 MDT Print View

I hunt in California and I was about to weigh in on this topic when I saw this, courtesy of Matthew Perry:



"Forget lead and other "green" bullets...go with PORK!

http://www.jihawg.com/"

_____________________________________________


This is the type of garbage that passes without comment around here now?

I'm done.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: California bans lead for all hunting on 10/13/2013 11:26:34 MDT Print View

"This is the type of garbage that passes without comment around here now?"

I commented : )

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: California bans lead for all hunting on 10/13/2013 11:31:04 MDT Print View

"Forget lead and other "green" bullets...go with PORK!"

Matt,

This is bigoted and XXXXX. Please remove and don't share trash like this again.



"This is the type of garbage that passes without comment around here now?

I'm done."

Craig,

I have a lot of respect for you, especially when you called out the BPL membership when they were bullying another member. I guess I don't understand why your response in this situation is to pack up your toys and go home.

Best regards,

Ian

Edited by rcaffin on 10/13/2013 23:50:37 MDT.

Dean F.
(acrosome) - MLife

Locale: Back in the Front Range
No great lead alternatives on 10/13/2013 11:52:22 MDT Print View

DU is used in warfare also because of its hardness, not just because of it's density. It also has the interesting property that when compressed it sheds white-hot flakes, which makes it very handy for shooting up vehicles since it will detonate their on-board fuel and ammunition stores.

Tungsten is also both dense and hard, and is also used this way. It isn't pyrotechnic like DU, though.

Compared to lead, tin is both expensive and hard, which really wears barrels out quickly. (Hardness isn't a great problem for military anti-tank rounds because they are generally either sabot or merely tipped with the DU or tungsten. And, of course, the military can afford to replace barrels aggressively.)

Gold would indeed work acceptably well, but has obvious disadvantages.

There aren't any GREAT alternatives to lead.

@ Craig- There is a school of thought that the best way to handle trolls is to ignore them and NOT comment. That's sort of what they want. So, it's kind of hard to take your self-righteousness very seriously.

Edited by acrosome on 10/13/2013 12:08:01 MDT.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: No great lead alternatives on 10/13/2013 12:01:36 MDT Print View

One of my concerns is the assumption that less density = a lighter bullet. I'm sure it's less of an issue with bird shot but I'm concerned that a lighter bullet will have less take down power compared to a heavier lead one. I wonder if this will result in more wounded deer running off and suffering than there is with lead bullets.

My only experience with these non-toxic rounds have been at a range; I'm also not a proficient hunter. If someone has actually hunted with them it'd be interesting to hear their input.

Dean F.
(acrosome) - MLife

Locale: Back in the Front Range
MV2 on 10/13/2013 12:15:21 MDT Print View

Theoretically, a lighter bullet will have a higher muzzle velocity, so the total energy is the same. This is the claim made by those DPX self-defense rounds- that they still penetrate well because they are so much faster. Unfortunately, the lighter bullets WILL suck at longer ranges. Being less dense they will generally have worse ballistic coefficients, and will LOSE that velocity much more quickly. Not so important in a self-defense round, but yes a bit of an issue for a hunting round.

Tim Zen
(asdzxc57) - F

Locale: MI
Re: No great lead alternatives on 10/13/2013 12:15:35 MDT Print View

I understand the wear issue, but cannot the muzzle velocity be increased?
Maybe at the expense of a new gun. This does not seem like an intractable problem.

I remember a lot of hand-wringing about removing the lead from gasoline.

Dean F.
(acrosome) - MLife

Locale: Back in the Front Range
Re: Re: No great lead alternatives on 10/13/2013 12:21:02 MDT Print View

Not really. Internal ballistics is a very dicey thing. You can't just keep loading the cartridges hotter and hotter- eventually chamber pressures get unmanageably high. And the propellant burn itself will also make more and more wear on the barrel. If raising the muzzle velocities was easy then every military in the word would field rifles with 5000m/s muzzle velocities.

All of this being said, there may eventually be a decent non-lead technological fix for this. I doubt it will be cheap, but that really doesn't concern me much.

Lead in gasoline was different- that was lead vapor. Yes, breathing or eating lead is bad. (Sometimes metal is bioavailable and sometimes it isn't- there is usually no need to remove a bullet from a shooting victim, for example.) Likewise, people who spend a LOT of time at firing ranges are in danger from lead vapor. That danger was much greater when primers still used lead, but unjacketed lead bullets do shed a small amount of vaporized metal when fired. It isn't much, though, which is why its really only an issue someplace where it might be concentrated, like a firing range. And while I really don't know, I would be willing to guess that someplace with an awful lot of metallic lead- like the backstop at a firing range- probably needs to be cleaned up before it is used as something else. The proposition that it poisons groundwater is kind of ludicrous, though.

Edited by acrosome on 10/13/2013 12:31:18 MDT.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: No great lead alternatives on 10/13/2013 12:37:09 MDT Print View

Thanks for the response Dean. As mentioned before, I'm coming from a place of ignorance with these rounds.

A higher muzzle velocity with a lighter round sounds like a recipe for over penetration. Hopefully they have these rounds dialed in to expand accordingly after piercing the hide to compensate.

No offense Tim but this really can't be compared to removing lead from gasoline. I don't see this as an unreasonable fear of change; there are legitimate reasons why lead is used in bullets. As mentioned earlier, I think that with this new demand, the market will adapt accordingly but hopefully not at the expense of wounded deer while they are on the learning curve.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: No great lead alternatives on 10/13/2013 12:37:28 MDT Print View

They (used to?) use lead for roof flashing. It's pretty stable.

Fred Thorp
(BFThorp) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: No great lead alternatives on 10/13/2013 14:00:03 MDT Print View

>A higher muzzle velocity with a lighter round sounds like a recipe for over penetration.

Typically just the opposite with traditional constructed copper/lead bullets. Weight vs velocity = ? penetration (ignoring construction and shape) is still more complex than it seems.

While non lead, single construction copper alloy bullets exist, I don't know if they would be any less harmful, environmentally than lead. Not that lead is, but hey, who put MTBE in our gasoline? They probably will have the answer.

The copper alloy bullets that I dealt with years ago, we're never as accurate as a traditional bullet. You don't have to reduce the weight on alloys, just make it longer, holding the bearing surface constant and it treat it like a standard load. This also bumps the BC but they just didn't shoot. Maybe they're better now.

I wonder if these asshats will ever get tired of pestering people that just want to be left alone?

Tim Zen
(asdzxc57) - F

Locale: MI
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: No great lead alternatives on 10/13/2013 15:30:03 MDT Print View

Ian -- no problem. But I do remember the motor heads complaining how CA was trying to ban their hobby because all their engines were designed for leaded gas.

There is a push to remove lead from tire weights, so don't feel like it is just guns.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: California bans lead for all hunting on 10/13/2013 17:44:34 MDT Print View

"This is the type of garbage that passes without comment around here now?"

Some things are beneath comment, Craig. IMO. The guy has done an admirable job of defining himself to the community, and not to his benefit. Over time he will find himself isolated and ignored. In any case, I'm with Ian on this one. Your voice is one the more worthy ones on this site, my friend. Fergawdsake, don't let one benighted soul drive you away and take us one step closer to conceding the public arena to the barbarians.

+1 to your intent, though.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: MV2 on 10/13/2013 17:50:50 MDT Print View

"Unfortunately, the lighter bullets WILL suck at longer ranges."

They also suck for hunting at close range in brush, as they are easily deflected or shattered. Low velocity, heavy slug was preferred for deer hunting in upper Michigan, where I grew up, e.g. .35 Remington. Unfortunately, that involved copper jacketed lead.

Fred Thorp
(BFThorp) - F
Re: Re: MV2 on 10/13/2013 18:16:59 MDT Print View

> "Unfortunately, the lighter bullets WILL suck at longer ranges."

They also suck for hunting at close range in brush, as they are easily deflected or shattered. Low velocity, heavy slug was preferred for deer hunting

Off topic ... but the heavy slow vs light fast deflection argument was questioned years ago in a study and concluded sectional density / gyroscopic stability was more the determining factors.

David Olsen
(oware)

Locale: Steptoe Butte
study unreviewed on 10/13/2013 20:11:38 MDT Print View

The most recent studies of the condors and lead have not released to be peer reviewed by outside scientists. Why they won't let others examine all their data and methods calls into question the validity of the report.

The idea that isotopes can be used to point to one source of the poisoning lead, and that being bullets, makes no sense to me as the lead in bullets comes from many sources including recycled batteries, wheel weights, old water pipe, linotype, maybe even chinese toys.

---

The post about the culturally insensitive ammo should be removed.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: No great lead alternatives on 10/13/2013 20:26:00 MDT Print View

"It also has the interesting property that when compressed it sheds white-hot flakes, which makes it very handy for shooting up vehicles since it will detonate their on-board fuel and ammunition stores."

In the spirit of continuing my tongue-in-cheekiness regarding DU, what a neat property for a hunting load. I can see it now, a cloud of flaming feathers as some hapless goose spirals down into the trees, setting off the Mother of All Forest Fires.

On a more serious note, thereby spreading very fine particles of low grade radioactive material, some of whose isotopes have a half life measured in the 10's of millions of years all over the countryside for generations of civilians to breathe, ingest, and otherwise introduce into their bodies, with unknown, but potentially severe, consequences. But what the heck, as long as it's not in our back yard, eh?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depleted_uranium

Edited: elements changed to isotopes.

Edited by ouzel on 10/13/2013 20:33:33 MDT.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife
Re: California bans lead for all hunting on 10/13/2013 20:30:55 MDT Print View

sigh.

Edited by kthompson on 10/14/2013 16:47:37 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: California bans lead for all hunting on 10/13/2013 20:37:37 MDT Print View

"I'd like to see Matthew Perry banned from posting."

I don't agree

Everyone has a possibility of redemption

Maybe he has a cartoon making light of contaminating Middle East countries with depleted uranium?

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife
Re: California bans lead for all hunting on 10/13/2013 20:40:23 MDT Print View

"Everyone has a possibility of redemption"

There has to be quality to begin with to be redeemed.