3rd Annual BPL Spring Run -Zion Training Thread
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Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: The Training Continues on 02/02/2014 18:53:24 MST Print View

Nice Eugene, congrats on the win.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Re: The Training Continues on 02/02/2014 19:55:48 MST Print View

Eugene - nice gold medal. good luck at your first 100K at Black Canyon. looks like a fast downhill course. John V. and I won't be able to make it but we'll be pulling for you.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
week from hell on 02/09/2014 19:53:40 MST Print View

we've had a rough week, temps were below zero everyday this week- lowest was -29 on Wed morning! needless to say no outdoor running- got 23 miles in on the treadmill (longest was 10 miles)

did get out this afternoon (a balmy 9 degrees) snowshoe "running" got 10.5 miles, but took 3.5 hours!

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: week from hell on 02/10/2014 07:33:08 MST Print View

Mike - I'd say 10.5 in 3.5 hrs on snowshoes is not too bad, and a great workout.
can't even comprehend -29 as we feel cold here when its below +60.

I got a nice 25 miler in Sunday but slow as molasses. Can do the distance but feel like I've ratcheted down a notch in speed, maybe once I get in shape ...
Been doing the long runs with a woman named Jeri who is much faster than us, but she wants to run with us to learn how to run slow because she's training for a 200 mile race in September.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
200 mile race on 02/10/2014 18:10:22 MST Print View

Holy crap Batman!!!!!!! That's impressive (as is any race 50 miles +)

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
ho hum week on 02/16/2014 15:24:23 MST Print View

week was pretty ho hum, got two snowshoe runs early in the week about 5 miles each- the work ratio is definitely much higher! Got a 10 mile run in yesterday- plenty of snow on the ridges, so work ratio still higher than good conditions, got 5 miles in on the treadmill today (wind was gusting to 40 mph)- 25 miles, probably closer to 30-35 as far as output goes though

also for those not following the other thread closely, we have reservations made for Watchman campground so we're good to go there :)

Mike

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: ho hum week on 02/16/2014 19:21:02 MST Print View

Mike with the crazy conditions maybe focus on time rather than miles.
a mile in the snow is definitely worth more than a regular mile.

Wonder how Eugene did yesterday, first 100K.

Mike Schasch
(MSchasch) - F
moab on 02/18/2014 14:34:36 MST Print View

Ouch, just ran the moab 55k this weekend. It was my first trail race and I think I've learned some valuable lessons. The last two weeks of training were "interrupted" by big Grand Canyon excursions. Probably not ideal. Anyway, I covered the first 18 miles in 3 hours (too fast), and the last 15.5 took me 4 hours! Had blisters goin, knee and hip pain. Finally took some IBU at the last aid station and I was able to run again. I guess I'm concerned about taking IBU during a race since I've heard it damages your intestine among other things. What do you guys do for pain?

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: moab on 02/18/2014 14:44:01 MST Print View

Mike - Congratulations
but believe it or not, 55K is not that long of a race.
you really shouldn't need IBU for a 55K.
the best thing for pain is try and not get it in the first place.
the best things to do are :

1. unless you are in a race to win it ... start slow for the first 2-3 miles, but I guess you figured that out. speed, especially when not warmed up causes more injury than distance.

2. train properly for the distance. and this also means tapering properly for the distance and your personal level of conditioning, but I guess you already figured that out too.

3. wearing the right shoes is also a big deal and affects more than just feet.

see how smart you are already, after only one race !

p.s.
there will always be some level of pain in an ultra, after all, it IS an ultra.
the key to how good shape you are in is not so much the pain, but how fast you feel normal again afterwards.

Edited by asandh on 02/18/2014 15:02:04 MST.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Re: moab on 02/18/2014 21:13:18 MST Print View

Yeah Mike! Good on ya dude.

Art pretty much nailed it on nipping pain in the butt before you even start, all that comes from the preparation and decisions we make before we even toe the line. This sounds like a huge cliche among endurance sport participants, but fully embracing pain and managing it the best we can is part of the "game" and allure to the ultra distance stuff, at least for me. NSAIDs can help in a pinch, but they also mask important signals your body may be sending to the brain, such as those signals that prevent you from experiencing undue injury. If you need IBU to get you through a run, you may want to pull back some until you can work through those issues without resorting to pills.

*If you're going to use nsaids, try sodium naproxen, which seems to be easier on the stomach.

Mike Schasch
(MSchasch) - F
Thanks on 02/19/2014 10:20:45 MST Print View

Thanks for the info guys. I was surprised to talk to folks to down pain killers before the race even starts. I didn't think a 55k would be that hard so I didn't train nearly as much as I probably should have.

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
Re: Thanks on 02/19/2014 10:33:33 MST Print View

>"Thanks for the info guys. I was surprised to talk to folks to down pain killers before the race even starts."

I'm married to one and hang out with a bunch of other Internists. There was a well-done, peer-reivewed article on that point 1-2 years ago. Many docs had assumed that reducing inflammation before it even started was better than waiting for the pain to start, so they advised NSAIDs before a big run/event when you knew you'd be hurting later. But it was only ever a reasonable assumption. When a controlled study was done, the outcomes were better if you waited for something to start to hurt and THEN take NSAIDs.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
nsaids on 02/19/2014 18:01:44 MST Print View

I think that study (maybe a different one??) also pointed to some potential risk of prophylactic use of nsaids

I know it's no that long by Art's standards :), but 55k is plenty long by mine- congrats!

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Ok week but big plans on 02/19/2014 21:08:33 MST Print View

I got two snowshoe trips in. I wish I could do mIkes mileage. 7 miles in 4 unstop hours. Incredible workout. Two days later shorter trip. Cut short when I hit crotch deep snow even with snowshoes. I'm still singing soprano.

But big plans Saturday. I will be in the Smokies and have a 48.3 mile hike/run/crawl/roll planned. Have a twin 27 miler as a backup plan. This will be the first 40+ in several weeks. It will be a great test of my gym training. Given the high 6600' elevation, by east coast standards, it will be a great workout. Goals are:
1) no injuries.
2) complete the 48
3) time on feet vs pace.

I will update the day.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Ok week but big plans on 02/20/2014 09:38:40 MST Print View

Greg - I'm hoping you don't mean 48 miles on snowshoes, that would make my workouts look pathetic.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Black Canyon 100k on 02/20/2014 11:34:14 MST Print View

Fellas, my run at the Black Canyon 100k went damn well this past Saturday, in that I finished and enjoyed the journey. It's finally sunk in over the last day or so. I finished back down in north Phx in 15:21 in the dark. My good friend Dan Carter paced me in the last 25 miles and I can't thank him enough.

We cruised over to Phx on Friday and checked in at the Pearl Izumi factory store, grabbed a solid dinner with some relatives that evening and scored a deal on a cheap roadside hotel on the eve of the race up near Prescott. Spending my Valentines evening sharing a bed with my running mate in a cheap hotel was exactly what I had in mind. After a typical prerace routine of 5hrs of subpar sleep, we were packing up for the race start in Mayer, AZ ready for what was expected to be a very warm day. It was 36F at the start just before sunrise, so I checked in and waited in the car until the last minute to duck out to the line. RD/ultra badass Jamil Coury signaled the horn for the start and we were off at 7am. The course started with a lap around a track, followed by a short 1 mile escorted run through the small town to the trailhead at the edge of town. From there it was 61 miles of blissful singletrack winding it's way gracefully south back down into Anthem, AZ, easily the best I've had the privilege of running.

I dropped my arm sleeves within 15mins of running as the sun rose on the horizon and so did the temps. Shorts and a singlet were all I wore for the day. I cruised the first 19 miles and surprised Dan with my pace, just a moderately steady pace but making good time. He met me at each aid station as there was a forest service road that paralleled most of the course for easy crew and aid access. By the 50k aid station the temps were near their peak, topping out around 89F in the canyon, possibly warmer depending on the aspect of the trail. People were struggling with the heat. I averaged about ~60oz of fluid (x2-24oz. Handheld bottles and nips from my hydration bladder) between each aid station, the longest stretch was an 8.7 mile stretch at the warmest part of the day. Fortunately I urinated about 6 times out on the trail and each time was clear, so I was doing well on hydration and fueling ( used Tailwind Nutrition multi hour mix in one bottle, 1-2 gels an hour, and an occasional hammer nutrition bar or pro bar as needed to satiate my stomach).

I finally met up with Dan at mile 37 to finish out with me on pacing duties. It was in the high 80's when he joined me and many had dropped out at the Black Canyon City aid station due to heat and typical ailments that plague a long run. I swapped out of my shoes (Nike Zoom Wildhorse) and into an old pair of Pearl Izumi Trail N1s- feet felt sorta shitty, but I wanted to feel a different kind of shitty. Immediately after leaving the aid we crossed the Agua Fria river and started a long climb back above the Canyon. Cramping started to kick my ass in the quads so I had to throttle back on effort to keep them at bay. Dan led me out and we settled into a nice quiet running pace and pretty much enjoyed the approaching evening among the saguaros and palo verde of the Sonoran desert. I forgot how beautiful the desert is in this part of the country.

We hit mile 50 in exactly 12hrs30min and moved through the station quickly. I was still ahead of the AS cutoffs by nearly 2 hrs, but knew my pace would drop as night fell and I fatigued. The station captain was confused for some reason and told us we had less than 3 hrs to do the final 13 miles. Sounds like plenty of time right? Notso much. We still had one big climb left out of the canyon and I was moving fairly slow coming in to this AS, running, but slowly through the dark by headlamp. I felt panic sink in and I kicked up the pace significantly and Dan followed behind me. We didn't talk at all for the next hour or so, just focused on management of effort and decisions made on the trail. In the final miles we passed about 6 runners and ran it in casually and enjoyably as soon as we knew we had a buffer on the finish cutoff. I really enjoyed the final 3.7 miles after leaving the last aid station and took the time to slow down and listen to coyotes yipping and howling at the full moon. Crossed around 10:22 PM with a big ass grin and a tear in my eye. Jamil handed me my finishers buckle and quietly shook my hand and I thanked him for putting together such a hard course. Connected with some fellow runners post race and shared some war stories.

I learned a lot on this one. Heat will cut you off at the knees and end your day if you're not mindful and deliberate in every decision you make. Combine hard effort and exposure for extended hours and you'll succumb to heat fast, many did and I'm glad I made it through without issue. Fueling- haven't quite nailed it and I still feel like I'm just throwing things down the hatch and hoping for the best. This go around was mostly successful on the fueling front despite my lack of confidence in this area. Cramping- I still get them, almost always located in my quads, consistently popping up around mile 25-30 in my longer runs. They come and go and I'm learning to manage them, but their presence easily added and hour or so to my overall time. Pretty sure it's a muscular imbalance somewhere and I'm determined to sort that out this year. Pace- smooth and efficient running is the key. Focusing early on my breathing and effort allowed me to move through the first half in great time with plenty in the tank for the second half. Pain- 100K feels a hell of a lot harder than 50 miles. Everything compounds the longer you're out there and pain seems to magnify. You definitely have to settle in and embrace what comes.

My friends and family have asked what's next? What they really mean to say is, " are you going to run a 100miler?" I'm not sure yet, too soon to tell, but I'm already looking at the Stagecoach 100 in Sept near flagstaff and daydreaming of the possibilities.Black canyon

Edited by Eugeneius on 02/20/2014 11:44:48 MST.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Black Canyon 100k on 02/20/2014 11:47:35 MST Print View

Eugene - Congratulations on a Great 100K run.
thanks for a great write-up.

and to answer that question you posed ... of course you're going to run a 100m.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Black Canyon 100k on 02/20/2014 18:49:38 MST Print View

Greg- sounds like your training is going just fine, enjoy the Smokies

Eugene- a big congrats on your 100k! That's quite an accomplishment; Zion should be a nice stroll in the park for you :)

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
A humbling day on 02/23/2014 20:02:39 MST Print View

First.... Eugene, sounds like a great experience. Uber cool picture, shows grit.

I am in ATL for work so I left early to pick up a couple of AT sections that I had missed during earlier hikes. The key one was in Great Smoky Mountain National Park. I had a 24 mile section between Newfound Gap and Spence Field. I had reservation at the next shelter that would have allowed a much easier back to back 27 but I wanted to try the full 48-49 mile day. My flight was delay and the result was that I didn't arrive until midnight at the trailhead. Luckily I rented an SUV and that allowed me to crash in the back.

The alarm went off at 5am and I was on the trail 15 minutes later. Also immediately after hitting the trail I discovered that I would be dealing with quite a bit of ice on both side of Clingmans dome which is at 6600'. After a less than graceful face plant, I stopped and put on my micro spikes which I had avoided due to some foot issues on my PCT caused by the spikes. But it really made life much easier though my pace was less than my normal speed.

I hit the halfway point at 2:30 about an hour behind. I was whooped but other than an earlier ankle problem I was still healthy so I headed back. It was really cool to meet the hikers that I had passed earlier in the day. They were amazed that I was doing twice the distance that they were covering in three days. The first half of the return was unexpectedly tough and I couldn't understand why. (I would later learn that the last 6 miles of my outbound route which were also the first six miles of the return had a total of 5000' of elevation gain in the 12.6 miles.). It was pitched dark halfway through the return. The darkness, combined with ice and fatigue really slowed me down and it took until midnight night to get back to the trailhead.

My goal was to do the distance without injury. This I accomplished. But I was on the trail for 18:40 which ties a record. The mileage was just under 49 miles (3rd highest) with a total elevation gain of over 14,000' (2nd highest.) So in spite of a very thorough butt kicking I survived. Even hiked another 8 miles today for recover which feel great. Yesterday was definitely a type two fun day though the sunrise, sunset and a crystal clear night sky brought it a bit into the type one catagory.

Just as the 42 mile training hikes were meant to simulate the R2R2R, this hike should be at least on par with Zion. I will continue to get stronger prior to our run but this was a great test, even if brought me a bit closer to my breaking point than I have been in years, definitely outside my comfort zone.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: A humbling day on 02/24/2014 07:39:48 MST Print View

Greg - some serious training.
sounds like you'll definitely be at Zion.