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3rd Annual BPL Spring Run -Zion Training Thread
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Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: crickets? on 01/27/2014 18:30:15 MST Print View

"What's the headcount on this?"

Unfortunately, doubtful I can make it. Wasn't going to do the run anyway, but thought it would be fun to hang around the campfire. Money is, unfortunately, getting a tad tight.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Campground ... on 01/27/2014 20:22:58 MST Print View

well of course the campground at the end makes the best sense "if" it is a decent place. can we research it a bit ?

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Campground ... on 01/27/2014 20:45:22 MST Print View

I've posted about this many times....

There is a private campground near the east entrance.
The Pros (as I see them):
It is literally one mile from where the trail ends. I have clocked the distance in my car. I believe they also have showers there. It's not nearly as nice as being down in the canyon in my opinion, but it's likely quieter. If we stayed there, no shuttles at the end would be necessary. Just add an extra mile of road and you're at camp. Nobody would have to wait around at the end- people could just trickle in.
The Cons:
If anyone bailed at the Grotto and it was late, I'm not sure how you could get back to camp. The Grotto is down in the valley and there is no sort of public transportation to get back up to the east rim. Someone would have to leave a bailout car down in the valley. How people would contact each other if bailing out or needing a ride down there is beyond me.

Camping in the valley:
Pros: In my opinion, its better camping; on the Virgin River. If people bailed at the Grotto, they could either walk about three miles from there (all slightly downhill road) to camp or possibly catch a shuttle if they're running. There's plenty of traffic back to camp.
Cons:
You'd be finishing pretty far from where we camp, basically needing shuttle at the beginning and at the end. There is no public transportation to get from the east rim back into the valley and you can't walk it (no peds in tunnel, the only way back down)...We'd have to leave cars/have people wait at the east rim for everyone to come in. There's parking and picnic tables there, not a bad place to wait. But if someone bailed down in the Grotto, I don't know how the people waiting for them at the end would get word of it....

You really need to look at a park and road map to understand this.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: Re: crickets? on 01/27/2014 21:37:02 MST Print View

I was hoping to see you out there Doug.
Another time and place then.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Re: Re: crickets? on 01/27/2014 21:56:54 MST Print View

Doug,

Sell more gear :)

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Re: Campground ... on 01/27/2014 22:28:43 MST Print View

it would be nice to stay inside the park unless logistics weigh really heavy the other way. his is especially true if some come who are not doing the run.

I think to really tackle this we need a handle on :

1. how many seriously plan to run this
2. how many seriously plan to finish
3. how many would seriously like to do only 37 miles to the Grotto
4. how many vehicles will be available

then try to come up with a logistic scenario for each camp location and weigh them ... unless someone would love to spend the day as a logistics slave ...

another point ... would the drive to the start be significantly shorter from the camp inside the park ?

additional info :
so it seems we will just miss being able to drive private vehicles to the Grotto to pick up those who may stop there (spring 2014 schedule not out yet). these runners will have to use the bus to get to either the road junction for pickup or the Watchman campground depending on where we decide to stay. this bus seems to run at least till 8:00pm which should be fine for everyone who is not crawling on the trail.

does anyone know how much time it takes to drive from the East end (potential camp) to the road junction inside the park on the scenic road. time is more relevant here than miles.

Edited by asandh on 01/27/2014 23:48:47 MST.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
shuttle on 01/28/2014 07:01:37 MST Print View

I believe we can line up a shuttle (price seemed reasonable when I checked last year) to transport us from Watchman (the main campsite within the park) to transport us to the West entrance in the morning

Watchman also has group sites available that might be an option??

http://www.nps.gov/zion/planyourvisit/upload/2013-Regs_WatchmanCG-new-map.pdf

I'll check on the other site as far as cost, groups, etc

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Re: Re: Re: Campground ... on 01/28/2014 10:12:42 MST Print View

1. how many seriously plan to run this
2. how many seriously plan to finish
3. how many would seriously like to do only 37 miles to the Grotto
4. how many vehicles will be available


I am planning to run the full Zion traverse, so with that in mind I will do my damnedest to not pull the cord at the Grotto- that should answer: 1,2, and 3. I'm still uncertain about how I'm arriving. Dan C. still seems like a maybe and Eric may be in as well. If they both go I will carpool with them.

I'll be a Zion newbie, so I am leaning on you all for camp logistics.

Mike Schasch
(MSchasch) - F
Camping on 01/28/2014 17:01:16 MST Print View

My thoughts on the camping situation:

Camping on the East side is likely to be less noisy, cooler (it can get damn hot in April), and less buggy. Campgrounds in the main canyon have a tendency to have tons of ants. I personally hate camping in the main grounds cause the hosts can be real strict and weird about tent placement and number of people at your camp. East side camp has some pretty good pizza across the street. In town you've got a lot more eating options.

Drive time from East Entrance to scenic drive range from 25-40 minutes depending on how many tourists are on the road and if they are stopping the tunnel for XL size vehicles (they usually do this till around 6-7pm).

I've never had too much trouble hitchhiking down to the main canyon while it was still light out.

Jacob D
(JacobD) - F

Locale: North Bay
Shuttles on 01/29/2014 10:25:57 MST Print View

I was going to reply regarding logistics, then I realized I didn't know what the hell I was talking about.


Hey Craig (or anyone), where do the shuttles in the park run from and to?

Also, and this may be irrelevant for a number of reasons, but the use of 2-way radios could potentially ease some of the shuttling concerns/coordination... if they'll work in the terrain. I dunno. Thoughts?


By the way, there is a nice high-res map here:
http://www.nps.gov/common/commonspot/customcf/apps/maps/showmap.cfm?alphacode=zion&parkname=Zion

Edited by JacobD on 01/29/2014 10:29:06 MST.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Shuttles on 01/29/2014 10:57:55 MST Print View

Jacob - there are two shuttle issues.

1. the Free park shuttle follows the yellow line in the map you provided. on that map we will hit the road during our run where it says The Grotto. this is where those only doing 37 miles will stop. Those going to the end will follow the road a mile or so then climb up the other side of the deep canyon. I am pretty sure cars will not be allowed here on our weekend and it will be bus only.

2. the shuttle Mike is speaking of will cost money and is a special order private shuttle to take us to the start.

I don't know if radios will work where we need them most as its a deep canyon.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Re: Re: Shuttles on 01/29/2014 11:03:00 MST Print View

Homing pigeons?

Maybe we can move logistic discussion back to the other thread?

Edited by Eugeneius on 01/29/2014 11:05:50 MST.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Moving Logistics Discussion on 01/29/2014 12:02:23 MST Print View

Good Idea Eugene.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Logistics and other non training discussion moved here :

Third Annual BPL Adventure Run main thread

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Edited by asandh on 01/29/2014 12:50:56 MST.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
The Training Continues on 02/02/2014 10:03:29 MST Print View

24 miler in the local mountains Saturday with a couple friends.
starting to finally feel like I may get in shape.
ran with temps mostly in the hi 30's to low 40's and 4 miles of light snow flurries.
that's considered major winter conditions down here.

got picked in the Wasatch lottery yesterday, so my summer training has now been defined for me.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
The Training Continues on 02/02/2014 12:28:13 MST Print View

I'm now pretty certain that I'm going to approach Zion in a similar fashion to Joshua Tree. It's obvious that I'm not willing to commit to the running training necessary to run the course or go for some sort of "fast" time, so my plans are to walk the entire thing, bring a nice lunch/dinner, enjoy my day, and roll in late. Hopefully I can act as a "sweeper" and take up the rear for stragglers or anyone having issues.

Surfing and spearing and backpacking take priority for my free time and I'm happy with that. I'm doing a lot of crossfit type stuff as well as mixing in some short runs here and there. I'll do a few long days between now and then to get some good hours on my feet.

I just can't excite myself to do all the maintenance miles necessary throughout the week to run distances like this anymore. Maybe things will change in the future, but for now I'm pretty content with the ultrapedestrian approach.

So look for me to DFL with a smile on my face on April 5th!

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: The Training Continues on 02/02/2014 12:33:20 MST Print View

Craig - DFL is fine, we probably do need a sweeper on this.

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Weird training this year on 02/02/2014 12:46:43 MST Print View

I miss living in GA. I could pretty much hike/run year round with a boatload of elevation change within a couple hours of my house. Now that I live in PA it gets tough to get good trail to run AND elevation gain. I have done a couple of 40 milers this winter but nowhere near the number that I did prior to R2R2R. BUT, what I have done is establish a pretty intense workout routine on a treadmill. I know from previous years that this is very effective but this will be the most that I have relied on the gym to get in shape for my spring events. I am hoping to get a couple more 40 mile days in before Zion, if not then I will be sweeping with Craig, which doesn't sound like a bad plan at all.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Re: The Training Continues on 02/02/2014 14:11:02 MST Print View

Congrats on the Wasatch 100 lottery win Art! What a brutal course you have before you.

@Craig, looking forward to meeting up in whatever capacity. I think the running is the excuse we're all using to put a "serious" note to an otherwise lighthearted occasion of beer consumption, laughter, and comradery. Passing through Zion is the icing on the cake so to speak and a goal worth working towards in all of this.

Yesterday marked my last training run before Black Canyon in two weeks. I entered a low key local trail race and utilized it as a my final long run. Timing was perfect and I went into it with no expectations and PMA. Ended up placing 1st in the 29 mile distance option with a time of 5:00:12 on really sandy course. There was little elevation gain to speak of, just some rollers, but plenty of sand to contend with and wreak havoc on my feet and ankles. Great training for Zion right?placed

Edited by Eugeneius on 02/02/2014 14:12:25 MST.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
training on 02/02/2014 16:22:22 MST Print View

Art- congrats on the draw, I've read a lot on Wasatch- a real toughy to be sure!

Craig- if it's anything like JT, I think you have it right- you were the only one smiling at the end :)

Greg- would you mind sharing a few treadmill secrets- we're getting another brutal front moving through (well below zero stuff :( ), so it will be treadmill for me all of this week for sure

Eugene- congrats! sounds like your training is coming along very nicely

my week was fair, no long run on Saturday- got three 6 mile runs in this week and about 8 miles of x-country skiing in this afternoon with my wfe

hope to get in a 20 miler next weekend, we'll see what the weather does

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Latest treadmill on 02/02/2014 18:18:18 MST Print View

Here is what my latest routines have been.

incline
1) Ten minute warmup. Start at 3.5mph and 0deg incline and increase .1mph and 1 deg every minute. At ten minutes I am at 4.5mph and 10 degree incline. The rest of the workout is at 4.5 mph.
2) I was doing a series of ramps. Increase 1 deg every minute from 10 deg to 15 degrees and back down to 10 degree for a five to minutes recovery.
3) this has become fairly straight-forward so I am starting to hold the 15 degree for a full five minutes. This has been killer with my heart rate hitting over 180. So far I have only been able to go five minutes once and have to reduce the duration down to 2-3 minutes at 15 degrees.

Speed
Starting at 4.5mph and level (1deg) increase .1 mph every minute up to 5.6 mph walking. Reduce speed back down to 4.5.

I may also run with a variety of inclines as well. Normally I will do a total of three total ramps and/or speed workouts. I can tell you that this has done wonders for my uphill hiking speed.

I also have been lifting on the alternate days. I have made sure to include hips in my upper body routines. It has eliminated some earlier knee pain that I had been having.