3rd Annual BPL Spring Run -Zion Training Thread
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Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
3rd Annual BPL Spring Run -Zion Training Thread on 10/06/2013 19:00:13 MDT Print View

Here we go again. This thread is for training related posts. There is a separate thread for the actual trip details. So lets hear it, need some inspirational training stories to get me motivated.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: 3rd Annual BPL Spring Run -Zion Training Thread on 10/06/2013 19:22:14 MDT Print View

Cool Greg.

I'll use the format I used last time:
Day of week- miles (R)oad or (T)rail or (B)ackpacking with a weekly total.
Sample:
M- 3T / T- rest / W- 5R ....etc.

It's still a long way out, but the logs did help me get motivated last time around, so I'll start posting at the end of this coming week.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Re: 3rd Annual BPL Spring Run -Zion Training Thread on 10/07/2013 07:16:40 MDT Print View

it helps me as well, both as motivation and as a learning tool- the last training thread I learned a ton!

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Re: Re: Re: 3rd Annual BPL Spring Run -Zion Training Thread on 10/07/2013 09:56:38 MDT Print View

Perhaps not the the sort of inspiration you were looking for Greg, but if can't help but share this. So I figure ill kickstart this thread with a dose of humorous and vile reality.

So last week on a short recovery run post Mt Taylor 50K, I was quickly rounding a blind corner on the trail blocked by a large outcrop of boulders. Feeling surprisingly spry I quickly made the turn with my attention on a particularly rocky bit of footing. To my surprise I look up trail at a junction to find two heavy set individuals going at it on top of a flat boulder like they were in a casting scene for 'Wild Mating Beasts of the Serengeti'.

I wasn't able to immediately process what I was witnessing and once it clicked I halted my pace to a dead stop like Wile E Coyote, digging my heels into the trail. The only thing I thought to say was "Seriously!?", with my hands raised up in disgust at the couple. Understand, this was at 12 high noon with the sun overhead on a quick run on my lunch break. Quite possibly tje last thing I expected to see. The ritual took place right alongside the trail , a mere 4ft from where I needed to pass.

Without breaking his "stride" the dude shrugged his shoulder at me in slight embarrassment and says "come on by man, you can pass, don't mind me none!"

I turned around in a state of confusion and ended my run right there. Afterwards, having some time to collect my thoughts I wasn't sure whether I should have congratulated the guy or responded the way I had.

A first for me on a run and one for the books. This morning on a run with my friend out on the same trail we passed the flat rock where the act occurred and I jokingly nudged him and said," Hey Pete, stay away from that rock right there."


Happy running.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: 3rd Annual BPL Spring Run -Zion Training Thread on 10/07/2013 10:40:09 MDT Print View

on our SoCal trails we run by blond super models all the time,
but Eugene's experience .... arrrrrgggh

Edited by asandh on 10/07/2013 12:06:19 MDT.

Ozzy McKinney
(PorcupinePhobia) - F

Locale: PNW
The stoke on 10/07/2013 12:45:20 MDT Print View

Good idea for winter stoke for sure.

Not sure I'll have any reports with heavyset mating in them. At least I hope not. I thought you were going to say he invited you in! Ick.

But the sun is shining in the PNW right now, so the wife and I are headed out for a few miles around a local lake with nice single track. Last week I think I got in about 10 miles, this week hoping for a few more.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 3rd Annual BPL Spring Run -Zion Training Thread on 10/08/2013 07:14:45 MDT Print View

blonde super models as well in Montana :)

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 3rd Annual BPL Spring Run -Zion Training Thread on 10/08/2013 10:19:29 MDT Print View

Super models?


Time to relocate.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
: Re: 3rd Annual BPL Spring Run -Zion Training Thread on 10/13/2013 12:42:53 MDT Print View

I took it relatively easy this week as I found my legs were pretty fatigued from Sunday's race. Yesterday's run was not so easy however, 16 miles (8 in and 8 out) to the Sleeping Giant- no trail and roughly 5700' of elevation gain (much of the tiptoe variety!)- took us over 5 hours to complete!

week looked like this: strength/3 miles trails/off/6 miles trails/strength/16 miles trails/7 miles trails 32 miles total

Sleeping Giant (he's lying on his back- head to the right)

 photo 20070604195831_sleepinggiant_zps77fa8405.jpg

 photo sleepinggiant_zpseea50955.jpg

Ozzy McKinney
(PorcupinePhobia) - F

Locale: PNW
Cool on 10/13/2013 18:42:21 MDT Print View

Looks like a cool spot Mike. I assume the second picture is of the giants "face"?

I clearly have some work to do. My week was 3/off/3/off/hike/off/3. For a grand total of 9 miles. But my brother is up from Chile with my 14 month old niece, so it has been fun to hang out with her. She is a hoot, and loves riding in the carrier for hikes. We took her on her first backpacking trip a few weeks ago, she digs it.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
sleeping giant on 10/13/2013 18:57:51 MDT Print View

yup that's from the backside looking at his face

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Maintenance Period???? on 10/18/2013 06:51:25 MDT Print View

I'm going to pull back my running a little- going to shoot for 25-30 miles/week vs 35-40+/week; I'll probably cut back to 4 days of running vs 5 as well

anyone have any thoughts on a what I anticipate as a couple of month pullback? I've been pushing it pretty good for the last 5-6 months and thought I might benefit from a little pullback???????

thoughts?

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Maintenance Period???? on 10/18/2013 08:54:36 MDT Print View

sounds like a smart idea Mike.
some down time can be very rejuvenating.
your plan is not even that much of a pullback compared to your normal training, so I would not be concerned about losing much.

(talk about down time, I have run 3 miles in the last 3 weeks, of course I'm putting in 16 hours a week house remodeling, so not exactly resting. great upper body cross training though).

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: 3rd Annual BPL Spring Run -Zion Training Thread - socks on 10/18/2013 13:52:55 MDT Print View

Assume no one is interested! :-)

Edited by idester on 10/19/2013 11:05:52 MDT.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Maintenance Period???? on 10/19/2013 10:50:54 MDT Print View

You'll be fine Mike.
I'm reading a training book right now that highly stresses the value of recovery and the fact that most more regular runners don't get enough of it.
Throw in some cross training cardio and stay off your legs a little while.
______________________________________________

Still paddling more miles than I run.

Broke a toe in the rocks surfing the Channel Islands last weekend so running is out for a little bit again.

I'm going to try something different this time around though:
3 runs/week max, with an emphasis on quality over quantity.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Re: 3rd Annual BPL Spring Run -Zion Training Thread - socks on 10/19/2013 11:14:58 MDT Print View

Doug- sent you a pm on the socks :)

Craig- ouch! what book are you reading on training? I think quality over quantity is the right track.

Mike

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Re: Re: Re: 3rd Annual BPL Spring Run -Zion Training Thread - socks on 10/19/2013 11:33:11 MDT Print View

I'm not suggesting you're overtraining, Mike, but here's two recent articles from iRunfar that touch on the subject.

http://www.irunfar.com/2013/09/overtraining-syndrome-part-one.html

http://www.irunfar.com/2013/10/overtraining-syndrome-part-two-treatment-and-prevention.html

I still need to finish reading Part 1.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
training on 10/19/2013 11:45:00 MDT Print View

Eugene- thanks I'll read up on those. I don't think I'm really over training either, just that I might possibly benefit from a pullback for awhile, but then again maybe not :)

Mike

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Re: training on 10/19/2013 12:41:24 MDT Print View

Often the benefits to cutting back a percentage of volume are not even physical, rather more quality time at home, catching up on projects and loose ends, relationship with the spouse and kids, etc.

I'm currently enjoying a brief period of downtime from running. I'm supposed to run a few sections of course this weekend for a fatass 50K we're putting on late November, but an outdoor dining table project for my momma is in order.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: training on 10/19/2013 17:53:33 MDT Print View

Mike, I'm reading Run Less, Run Faster by Bill Pierce, Scott Murr, and Ray Moss.

The general premise is quality over quantity and adding intensity. Their programs build off of the idea of 3/2 workouts: 3 runs and 2 cross training sessions/week. One run is typically track intervals and repeats, one run is a short to medium but faster tempo, and one is long...but even on the long runs they favor adding a bit of intensity over mileage. The cross training workouts are supposed to be cardio based and fairly intense as well; primarily swimming and cycling. Something to keep your heart and lungs working, mix things up a bit and avoid burnout, and give the running muscles a rest.

I'm a notorious junk mile runner. I love running to be in the woods, don't get me wrong, but as for developing as a runner I've been on a plateau for a very long time. Their program makes sense to me, so we'll see.

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
My Name is Malto on 10/19/2013 19:58:23 MDT Print View

And I have a problem. I keep trying to take a rest day but I keep finding myself working out anyway. I am starting to find running is like crack. The good news is that after several years of hating running I am actually starting to really like it as a stress relief.

Mike,
I am a firm believer, and now huge violator, of quality over quantity. I continue to believe that weekly base miles alone are not of good judge of training success. I believe focusing on a single long run then one quality mid week training objective combined with cross training to be far superior. I hope to shift to this strategy in a couple of weeks. It has worked the last three years to get my lazy self in shape for various events.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: training on 10/20/2013 08:35:54 MDT Print View

over training is relative to ones base, but I'd say Mike's 40 mi/ week is not over training.

even "most" high end trail runners have a significant down period once a year. and its as much for the mind as it is for the body.
Mike - you could even drop to 15 miles and 3 days a week and it would be fine, as long as you didn't stay there too long.

as far as training -
I find 4 days a week to be best in early season, then 5 days a week is preferred once I get into mid season training, with 2-3 weeks of 6 days as I try and peak for the main event of the year.

and of course "Quality" - but exactly what is that ??
we all feel sometimes we are running just to add on some miles to our tally.
so what is everyone's definition of Quality Miles ?

a good mix of runs during the week works for me :
1 long run, easy intensity (5+ hours)
2 intermediate length runs, intermediate intensity (2-2.5 hours each)
1-3 shorter high intensity runs (45-60 minutes each)
the high intensity short runs are often hill work.
(in mid season I will sometimes reverse the intensity level between the intermediate and short runs just for a change of pace).

I refer to hours rather than miles because terraine affects pace so much.
I am a big believer in trying to train on the type of terraine your target event will be on.

Edited by asandh on 10/20/2013 09:36:31 MDT.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
training on 10/20/2013 14:06:14 MDT Print View

good info everyone! :)

finished up the week w/ 24 miles

strength/5.5/0/3.5/strength/9/6- where I'm running I'm getting good hill work thrown in consistently, my 9 mile run had ~2700' of gain, even my 3.5 mile run had ~800'

I'll shoot for a long run in the mid-teens for next weekend and continue to keep my midweek runs on the shorter side

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: training on 10/27/2013 17:11:22 MDT Print View

only ran three times this week, but had some quality runs and ended the week w/ 24 miles and ~ 6100' of elevation

strength/7.5/5.5/0/strength/0/11.5

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: training on 10/27/2013 17:18:21 MDT Print View

Surfed 6 days for a total of almost 12 hours this week.
Ran 5K trail on Monday.
Strength training twice.
Out the door before it's too dark for an easy 6 mile trail run with my son right now (he rides his MTB while I run).

Trying to get the running habit going again...slowly.

Starting to get psyched about running, I've been daydreaming about a few big new loops in the local mountains.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Re: Re: Re: training on 10/27/2013 19:33:54 MDT Print View

Ran a few times this week (x4 in total) and rode the singlespeed twice, focused mainly on effort over distance. My short runs early in the week were all up a route with nearly 1000' of vertical in 1.5 miles, steep and anaerobic inducing if you're not careful. I run the downhill hard back to the car for the turnover. Haven't been too keen on getting out for very long the last two weeks, so mixing it up has been enjoyable at the moment.

Yesterday morning I ran a 10 mile tempo on a pancake flat access road at about 7:40 min/mile and it hurt like hell, haven't felt that in some time! Not sure that it benefits me much for Zion, but we're still 5 months out.

I have to bail on a R2R2R trip in two weeks that a few of us here were planning. I can't go into it half hearted with only fair fitness at this point. I thought I would be cruising after Mt. Taylor 50K but I underestimated the recovery time and the brief time for getting back into a routine before Nov. 9. This change in plans has me reeling all the more for Zion in April.

For those of you strength training, what specifically are you doing and how does it compliment your running? This is something I want to incorporate with more specificity over the next few months. My typical weekly strength sessions consist of some bench and pushups, pull ups, chin ups, overhead presses with the 45lb. plate, and some simple core work with the 45lb. plate. Nothing special.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: Re: Re: training on 10/27/2013 20:54:28 MDT Print View

Eugene, I could send you some circuits that I like a lot. I get most of my strength oriented training via Ross Enamait at Ross Training. I like his style quite a bit, pretty much an old-school boxing trainer. Quick, intense, no frills workouts that are primarily done with bodyweight and/or homemade equipment.

A sample circuit:
20 pushups
10 pullups
30 bodyweight squats
10 bodyweight rows (I do these on homemade rings/TRX style straps)
20 bridges/hip raises
Do entire circuit as fast as possible, no rest between exercises.
Do entire circuit 3-5 times, with 2 minutes rest in between each circuit.

They're good, fast workouts that can be tacked onto the end of a run, bike, or surf session as warmup.

He's got lots of free stuff on his site. I've purchased two of his ebooks and like them as well.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
strength training on 10/28/2013 06:51:58 MDT Print View

I do something pretty close to Craig's workout on one day- I vary the reps/sets but always include pushups, pullups, squats, situps at a minimum-the other day is a little more traditional weight training- bench, squats, cleans w/ some pullups/chinups/situps/dips mixed in- the reps are higher and weights lower than what I used to lift years ago

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: strength training on 10/28/2013 07:57:23 MDT Print View

October-December is typically my down time of year for running. (These Socal winters are brutal). I'm lucky to get 25 miles a week right now and haven't done a 20+ miler in 5 weeks.
Lots of strength training though, in the form of house remodeling, upper body is getting a great workout with concrete work, brick work, stucco, wallboard, plaster, painting, etc.
Need to do more stretching though, will try and restart that this week.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: strength training on 10/28/2013 08:57:20 MDT Print View

nm

Edited by FamilyGuy on 10/30/2013 13:39:44 MDT.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: Re: strength training on 10/28/2013 09:03:38 MDT Print View

Excuse me, we'll call it exercise then.

Most runners are not trying to look like GI Joe action figures Dave. We've already beat this one to death.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Re: strength training on 10/28/2013 09:59:48 MDT Print View

nm

Edited by FamilyGuy on 10/30/2013 13:41:31 MDT.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Strength training on 10/28/2013 10:18:43 MDT Print View

"So Craig, why do you 'exercise' with resistance circuits if you already run?"

Strength.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Strength training on 10/28/2013 10:26:57 MDT Print View

nm

Edited by FamilyGuy on 10/30/2013 13:42:02 MDT.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: Strength training on 10/28/2013 11:22:57 MDT Print View

We're having major semantics issues here Dave.

http://www.rosstraining.com/articles/strengthtraining.html

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Strength training on 10/28/2013 11:49:39 MDT Print View

nm

Edited by FamilyGuy on 10/30/2013 13:41:01 MDT.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Re: Re: Strength training on 10/28/2013 13:58:05 MDT Print View

The best American distance runner does minimal strength training. He does spend time in the weight room...

Rupp and Salazar in the weight room

He also has an underwater anti-gravity chamber. You want to purchase mine?

:)

Edited by ngatel on 10/28/2013 13:58:58 MDT.

Ozzy McKinney
(PorcupinePhobia) - F

Locale: PNW
Strength/exercise on 10/28/2013 16:50:39 MDT Print View

I've been stacking wood this week. Not sure what definition that falls under, but it makes me sore. So I'm counting it as "something"...

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Strength/exercise on 10/28/2013 19:03:43 MDT Print View

doing body-weight "exercises" will definitely make you stronger, doing lower rep/higher weight exercises will definitely make you even stronger yet

obviously depends on one's goals; as this thread is discussing training for a 50 mile trail run, I'd personally lean towards higher rep/lower weight "exercises"

here's a "fun" workout to give a go- it's a crossfit workout called "Murph" (named after a fallen Navy SEAL)- it's a timed workout- hit the stopwatch and run 1 mile, then do 100 pullups, 200 pushups, 300 bodyweight squats, run another mile and hit the stop watch again

you can partition the pullups/pushups/squats in any arrangement you want- I broke mine into 20 sets of 5 pullups/20 pushups/30 squats

it's a really tough workout (at least it was for me!) 41:16 was my time the last time I tried it

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Mixing it up on 10/28/2013 20:18:27 MDT Print View

I just finished a 10K of mixed road and trail (about 50/50, relatively flat). 1:00:16 (about 9:45/mile...slow)

followed by:

20 pushups
8 bodyweight rows
25 squats
10 bridges/hip raises (feet on ball)
8 pike presses
2 minutes rest
Repeat X3

followed by

10 minutes stretching



Tomorrow I plan on running a mountain (5.75 miles trail, 1700' gain) and doing a fast ab workout afterwards).
Ab workout:
10 crunches
20 lying hip swings
plank for time
X3 sets

___________________________________________

I've seen that SEAL workout Mike (or at least something similar)....it looks disgusting. I'm afraid to even try it.

___________________________________________

It's raining and ocean conditions are terrible....meaning it should be a good running week for me!!!

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Strength/exercise on 10/28/2013 20:22:30 MDT Print View

nm

Edited by FamilyGuy on 10/30/2013 13:37:23 MDT.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Strength/exercise on 10/28/2013 21:27:25 MDT Print View

"it's a really tough workout (at least it was for me!) 41:16 was my time the last time I tried it"

Good time! I'm going to try and beat it though ... I'm going for 41 hours even....

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: Re: Strength/exercise on 10/28/2013 22:09:18 MDT Print View

You got this Doug!


______________________


So Dave, would you say that doing the higher reps is a waste of time when one could instead lift heavier and do fewer reps for more gain (at least in the short term?

It seems to me that we're all defining things differently. When a lot of surfers, runners, etc. that I know talk about "strength" training, most of the time they're actually talking about increasing endurance, not total power output. So if we take your definition, you're right in that regard. I see what you're talking about when comparing "strength" training vs. exercise or endurance training.

So, from the perspective of a runner or surfer (or whatever) that wants to simply maintain overall fitness and correct imbalances that come from the sport of choice (runners obviously don't build much upper body strength and surfers don't build the most powerful legs), do you think time would be better spent doing low reps/high resistance (6-10, near failure on last rep) vs. high reps, low resistance?

The problem as I see it: there has to be an end point to strength building or we're now talking bodybuilding/competitive weightlifting and some really impractical gains? (i.e., if a surfer were to continually increase leg press weight for an entire year, and the year after that, they'd likely end up with legs that were bigger than functional for their sport) A certain amount of strength is never going to hurt anyone...but there is a logical endpoint for any given sport. (I can tell you right now I'm too big to be a good distance runner, not just body fat, but muscle as well. My forearms are the size of a lot of skinny runner's calves.)

I think what we're all actually debating is the question of when is enough enough? And once that point is reached, isn't the goal simply maintenance and endurance, not a continuing increase in strength- which also brings unneeded size to many sports.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Re: Re: Re: Strength/exercise on 10/29/2013 07:28:23 MDT Print View

my take is that it wouldn't be counter productive to do a little of both- one day I exclusively do higher rep body-weight exercises (typically Monday), the next day (typically Friday) my strength training is done mostly w/ weights in the 8-12 rep range

what I've let go was the very low rep/higher weight training that I used to do-while it was certainly fun and satisfying to load 315 # on the bench, with running and hiking being my primary "sports" I don't see myself going that route again- not to mention the risk of injury tended to go up w/ the increases in weight

I certainly don't begrudge someone lifting heavy and I still admire the time and effort it takes someone to get there, just not practical at this juncture in my life

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Re: Strength/exercise on 10/29/2013 09:11:09 MDT Print View

nm

Edited by FamilyGuy on 10/30/2013 13:39:09 MDT.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Strength/exercise on 10/29/2013 09:11:54 MDT Print View

nm

Edited by FamilyGuy on 10/30/2013 13:38:16 MDT.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Training Thread Hijacked on 10/29/2013 09:22:02 MDT Print View

well ... since the Zion training thread has now been hijacked maybe someone could start a new one that's actually about running, and more in line with how the RRR training thread went.

Edited by asandh on 10/29/2013 09:23:13 MDT.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Training Thread Hijacked on 10/29/2013 09:58:15 MDT Print View

nm

Edited by FamilyGuy on 10/30/2013 13:36:52 MDT.

Ozzy McKinney
(PorcupinePhobia) - F

Locale: PNW
Seriousness on 10/30/2013 00:46:36 MDT Print View

In the words of one R.J. Burgandy-

Well, that escalated quickly.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
in other news on 10/30/2013 07:19:03 MDT Print View

we got 5-7" of the white stuff, which has melted here and there creating some mixed ice/snow conditions- got the screws out last night to ready my shoes :)

 photo studded_zpseb8dd03d.jpg

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: in other news on 10/30/2013 08:29:55 MDT Print View

looks good Mike.
what length screws do you use so they are long enough to stay in but not so long that they poke your feet ?

do you ever have a problem with them staying in ?

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Re: in other news on 10/30/2013 19:01:37 MDT Print View

Art- with these PI's I went w/ 3/8" because they seem a little thinner than past Montrails where I used 1/2" screws- the 1/2" screws in the Montrails stayed in really well- I wore more down than came out, I think I only lost a couple over two winters

we'll see on the 3/8" ones, their maiden voyage this evening went w/o a hitch

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
training on 11/03/2013 15:24:07 MST Print View

had a pretty good week- the highlight a 19 mile run yesterday w/ about 5700' of elevation- a little snow, a little ice, a little mud and even a little dry :)

strength/0/5.5/4.5/strength/19/4; 33 miles total

lost a couple of screws in my shoes (had to be on the long run), might have to try 1/2" screws- at least in the thicker portions in the rear

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: training on 11/10/2013 16:51:08 MST Print View

another pretty good week- highlight was a 17.5 mile run today w/ ~ 5000' of elevation gain; gorgeous November day, highs in the mid 40's- little sun, little clouds, little light rain

strength/5.5/6/0/strength/5.5/17.5; 34.5 miles total

I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one training, am I? :)

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Re: Re: training on 11/10/2013 17:32:05 MST Print View

You're on your own Mike.....


I've been slacking on logging my weekly run totals! I'm still out there running with you in spirit Mike!

Ran a local trail 10K race yesterday morning in 43:57. I feel pretty good about that time considering 4 miles of the desert course consisted of gradual incline. I was 5th runner to the final turnaround with all the top 4 runners within 2 minutes. I foolishly stopped for a moment to down a cup of water from a helpful aid volunteer- that moment turned into 30 seconds when my legs turned to mush. I let 4 runners pass me in that time when I should have just pushed through it and held my position. I was able to regain and pass 2 of those 4 runners on the gentle downhill back to the finish for 7th overall. Wining times were a hair under 40mins. at 39:XX and some change, so my time wasn't too far off the mark.

I had not "officially" run a 10K race until yesterday, so it was a good gauge on my current fitness, which isn't horrible, but definitely needs some building! Had it been a flat road 10K I'm fairly confident that I would have run a sub-40 minute 10K. It's on my list of things to shoot for this coming up year. I'm not sure where this falls into training for Zion, but it's where I'm at right now.

Weekend after next is the Picacho Peak 50K Fat Ass Race, a small low key race we're putting on in our area. I'll have my course flagging responsibilities ahead of me over the next two weeks, so I'm sure I'll get in some longer miles.

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Not quite lazy on 11/10/2013 19:32:18 MST Print View

But a fad unmotivated. Did a 14 mile road run. Over the last few weeks I have concentrated on long runs, 13-20 miles once a week. Did a 32 mile trail run/hike three weeks ago. Getting good base fitness in, will have to get serious in upcoming weeks.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Re: training on 11/11/2013 07:43:42 MST Print View

only doing about 15 miles a week right now, but should resume training in a week or two and slowly return to some real mileage.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Re: Re: training on 11/11/2013 08:03:35 MST Print View

Eugene- that's screaming fast! I'll occasionally run 8 minute miles when doing mile repeats, I don't think I'd ever be able to run 7 minute miles over any distance- well maybe one mile w/ a grizzly on my tail :)

Greg- I've read that a little road running can be beneficial; theory is that it "shocks" the body a little bit more vs trails-I have to run ~ 1/2 mile of roads (to and fro) to get to the trailheads around here so I get a little road work in

Art- I'm confident your base is solid :)

Mike

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
The Struggle on 11/11/2013 15:55:18 MST Print View

Much faster than me , Eugene.

I've been having tons of fun outdoor adventures but little in the way of actual running training.

I'm going to hold at 20 miles/week of easy stuff for another week, then start bumping things up.

I'm struggling. I'd like to believe I'm hard enough to surf most mornings before work AND run AND do my cross training AND weekend backpacking trips (on top of full time work and gardening and parenthood!)...
...but since surfing comes at dawn, I'm usually pretty spent by the time I'm home at 4:30...easy to blow off the running and other training.
Gonna start trying my best.....If I'm going to be maintaining the current amount of surfing I'm doing (which is a non-compromise at this point) and add in the distance running, I think I'm going to really have to get my sleep and diet cleaned up too (and ditch the beer).

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: The Struggle on 11/14/2013 17:50:07 MST Print View

I'm sure surfing could easily be counted as cross-training, add in a couple of shorter runs here and there and a long run on the weekend and you'll be GTG! :)

due to the time change, I've been running at night the last couple of weeks (except weekends), it's definitely a little tougher for me to get motivated vs running in the day- I am getting better at running at night though and we've got a full moon coming soon which will help

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Re: Re: The Struggle on 11/14/2013 19:53:22 MST Print View

Ride it out Craig. I don't know your challenges and priorities, but know that we all have our own unique daily obstacles and hardships to overcome in this process. This isn't to diminish your individual struggle, but hopefully to encourage you in the knowledge that consistency isn't easy for anyone. I appreciate your honesty here, Craig. Let it be known, I envy your morning surf sessions.


Illuminated full moon runs out in the desert without a headlamp are hard to beat. Looking forward to Sunday evening.

Ozzy McKinney
(PorcupinePhobia) - F

Locale: PNW
Rain on 11/15/2013 03:14:37 MST Print View

I really enjoyed your TR from the other day Craig. I'll trade a run or two for a family backpacking trip for sure.

It's been raining a lot. I've been... not running much. 2-5 miles once or twice a week. That isn't going to get me anywhere. Transitioning jobs right now so schedule is crazy, but the move will be good in the long run. Experimenting with some non-slip footbed material for huaraches to help keep things less bananapeel-esque on the really muddy days.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Re: Re: The Struggle on 11/15/2013 10:43:44 MST Print View

hit rock bottom this week with a total of 13 miles.
(and I wasn't even surfing).
the slow road back begins today ...

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
training on 11/17/2013 10:55:02 MST Print View

had a pretty good week, got in a tough 14 miler yesterday w/ ~ 4000' of elevation-it was a trail I hadn't run before, but definitely will again :)

strength/5.5/6/0/strength/14/4- total of 29.5 and just shy of 8000' of gain

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
training in the cold on 11/24/2013 15:18:26 MST Print View

Brrrr- been a little chilly here this week; my two mid week runs were in the dark and one night it was 6F- also took a heck of tumble and black & blued my elbow and shoulder- my fault as I usually bring two lamps (one on my head, the other on my waist) for better depth perception and picking up hazards. I was hoping that the full moon would make up for one lamp, which it might have had the clouds not rolled in-doh!

had a good long run yesterday, but cold, 7F to start about 20F when we were done

week looked like this: strength/7.5/4/0/strength/18/4.5= 34 miles w/ ~9000' of elevation

log in the back makes me looking like I'm carrying a club :)

 photo rodneyme_zps37bca490.jpg

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Mike, lets trade on 11/24/2013 15:26:46 MST Print View

Training locations. I would love to have that vertical training ground in my back yard. I have two choices, runnable but flat or a rock scramble and hilly. I have been in a great routine over the last 8 weeks. Very consistent 13-20 mile relatively flat runs every weeks with one 32 mile AT run/fast rock scramble. Last week I also began my patented treadmill routines which I know will prepare me for the uphills. 4.5mph and increase the elevation by 1degree per minute up to 12 degrees, later more. I follow this with a speed workout going from 4.5-5.4 by .1mph increases every minute. This is all done walking, no running which is significantly harder for me.

My plan is to get a few 30+ mile days in over the winter and section hike some of the AT this spring doing 30-40 mile days. Don't know if I will get the same level of vertical that I did for the R2R2R two years ago, that was nice thing about living near the GA AT. There was plenty of vertical.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
trade on 11/24/2013 16:53:25 MST Print View

Greg- no complaints here (well except that weather thing :)), even my shortest routes I'm getting 500'+, much better in that regard to my previous locale; even my walk to work I get decent elevation gain- my wife said they should have named the town Hillena :)

I'm pretty sure I'll be spending a fair amount of time on the treadmill due to weather, I was disappointed that my gym doesn't have an old fashioned step machine like they did in Miles City- that was a dandy of a machine!

Mike

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Re: Re: Re: training on 11/24/2013 21:24:31 MST Print View

You guys are bonafide badasses. Glad to hear you came out relatively unscathed from your recent tumble. Those temperatures are making the hair on my neck stand up. It would take some serious motivation to get me out the door in 7F temps for a run. How are you feeling after your long runs? You've been doing that 18 mile/9K vertical run regularly now. Sounds like your base is really solid.

Yesterday a few NM locals came together to run the Picacho Pk Fatass 50K, a low key free race my good friend Dan Carter put on in the Robledo Mtn range. We wrapped up course flagging this past week and dropped off a cache on the course for runners Friday night. It was pretty much a self supported affair, save for the small aid I setup at mile 10/18. Saturday morning we had a wintry mix which made the start unusually brisk for the motley crew of desert rats that showed up, all ten of us.

I havent been running much volume the last 6 weeks or so, a few good runs but no significant weekly long runs, so I wasn't sure how I was going to feel yesterday toeing the line for a 50K run. We headed out at 8am from the start area and I knew within the first mile that I was feeling pretty good and had a good chance for a decent run. Had a short rough patch at mile 18-20 with some cramping issues in my quads coming off one of two longer climbs, but was able to throttle my effort back and keep them at bay, enough to finish without feeling completely wrecked. Finished in 6:20 with a smile on my face and a beer in hand at the finish. I was stoked with the time considering the tough course Dan put together and the cold weather that kept us on our toes. The run was a good excuse to get a crew of people together to have fun and push each other and it was a great success.

I'm feeling more confident now that I'll be able to maintain my base through winter and be ready for more specific training starting in January, leading into April.

Anyone have running plans for Thanksgiving weekend?

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
50k on 11/25/2013 07:17:43 MST Print View

Eugene- congrats- sounds like you did great! that 9000' is for the week, my 18-ish mile runs have been in the 4-5000' range which is still pretty decent. I'm a little sore after those long runs, but not terrible- good enough I've been getting a shorter run in the next day. the cold weather does take a little motivation to get out, especially in the dark, but once I get going it isn't too bad :)

I'm definitely running over Thanksgiving, but no races (they do have a 8k Turkey Trot I'll pass on). I'll be in MIssoula visiting my daughter, grandson and son-in-law, some very good running in Missoula- so at least one good long run in the mix.

How about you?

Mike

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Re: 50k on 11/25/2013 08:40:01 MST Print View

Enjoy Missoula!

No plans for the holiday weekend, probably ease back into a run. Feeling pretty sore today, more than Sunday for sure. I'm fundamentally opposed to running anything with the words turkey and trot as a descriptor, so I think I will just eat, drink, and be merry.

Adan Lopez
(Lopez) - F

Locale: San Gabriel Valley
training on 11/25/2013 17:55:07 MST Print View

Everytime I go off the deepend and checkout of BPL-land for a while, I always regret it, and this is not exception. Look at all the good run-vibes I've been missing!! Time to plug back in and recharge the running batteries!

Looks like everybody is doing similar to how I'm doing. Some on-and-off weeks, some great weeks, but overall some good running motivation to share. I love it.

My summer was basically backpacking, with Craig and with family, Surfing, with Craign and with family, bbqing, van-tripping, etc with beer and running sprinkled in here and there. I must not have killed my fitness too much during all of this because already I'm feeling some real good energy coming back into the ol' getaway sticks. I'm also getting pumped about my night runs lately, running without lights has become more natural and now I'm like, getting a good high on some of these night runs. Yesterday, I capped the week off with a favorite, Baldy+ in the snow, which always gets the juices flowing big time. In between, I will be logging some bodyweight stuff that Ive been "enjoying". I call it Run to the park, climb tree branch mucho, mantle up wall mucho, burpees muchos, run over park bench some, run home, Lift heavy bag mucho.

5t/xtrain/5t/xtrain/10t
5t/xtrain/8t
8/xtrain/7t/xtrain/10t (Baldy!!)

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Training…if you can call it that. on 11/25/2013 18:29:10 MST Print View

The ocean has won again. I surfed for 8 days straight, took Sunday off, then surfed again today.
I think two 5Ks, one lap swimming session, and 3 cross training sessions got worked into that stretch.

I called Adan on Friday to see if he wanted to surf on Saturday. He reminded me that we just got our first snow and seemed a bit disappointed I wasn't thinking mountains. He went and got some snow. I surfed. Shows where my head's been.

But hey, this morning a juvenile whiteshark graced me by showing me its fin tip. It slowly swam by about 15 feet away, calm and cool as could be. Like a boss. I was riding a 9'6" longboard (small waves) and it was at least as long as my board. Four other surfers about 20 feet to my right saw it as well. We kept surfing. If it wanted to eat someone I figure it wouldn't have been so obvious to us.

Check out this link:
http://ktla.com/2013/11/20/possible-great-white-shark-caught-on-video-as-sightings-appear-on-rise/#axzz2li6mfGSr

This was filmed only a week ago on a GoPro at the exact spot I've been surfing every morning for the last week.

I'm fairly certain the shark I saw today was one of the same above; size was identical.






Don't count ol' Craig out of this Zion run though. I'll get it together one of these days.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
training on 11/25/2013 19:29:39 MST Print View

Adan- glad to see you checking in! I know you guys have some serious vertical nearby (as well as a ocean!!), I wouldn't have believed it, but got to see it w/ my own eyes :)

Craig- that's very cool AND scary at the same time- kind of like seeing a grizzly in the backcountry

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: training on 11/26/2013 09:11:06 MST Print View

Glad to hear " most " of you have been doing some training.

I officially hit bottom 2 weeks ago with a 13 mile week, preceded by two 15 mile weeks. So last week I began the crawl back to fitness with 29 miles, this week will be similar, with a goal of 40 a week by New Years, then the real training.

In my defense this is my normal time of year for laying off the running, but I'm also trying to heal up a weird hip issue that seems to get aggravated by up hill power walking of all things. Plain old running, I am fine. Its not quite healed yet, so in my come back I'm temporarily avoiding training runs that are steep enough to require walking ... we'll see what happens.

And in a true shoot the messenger sense, I'm wondering if its my Cascadias that are causing my biomechanics to be off and thus causing the hip issue. So, yes, I'm looking for a new pair of shoes ... maybe the Pearl Izumi N2's ? Haven't tried them in a store yet though.

Adan Lopez
(Lopez) - F

Locale: San Gabriel Valley
ocean vs mountain on 11/26/2013 10:30:28 MST Print View

Craig, super bummed I missed the shark encounter. As you know, I'm kinda in the reverse situation. I wish I surfed weekly, but the mountain's pull is stronger, especially in winter. Anywho, in a shameless and selfish effort to pull you to the dark side, here are some pics from this weekend.

backbone

cloud running

ridge

cloud

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
nice pics! on 11/26/2013 18:56:00 MST Print View

Adan- looks great! Craig will have a tough time resisting that :)

Art- sorry to hear about your hip, hope it goes away for you.

I'm very fond of the N2's- sole is grippy, roomy toe box (but snug at the mid and rear), mild drop, the best shoe laces known to man (like little sausages so the knot doesn't come undone), lightweight yet stout enough for mountain running

probably a little less protection/cushioning than the Cascadias (just by looking at them side by side)

I've got 300 miles on mine and recently added screws to them, I'm thinking they might last me through winter; I've got a new pair in the box for spring

I think Eugene might be in N2's as well??????

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: nice pics! on 11/26/2013 19:09:35 MST Print View

Sick pictures Adan. Baldy looks pretty big and proud there.

So I was going to run up there tomorrow....but....a boat trip to spearfish at the Channel Islands has been put together. Underwater hunting it is. Hoping to put some fresh fish on the table for Thanksgiving.

One of these days I'll run.

One of these days....

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Re: nice pics! on 11/26/2013 19:53:18 MST Print View

I always get hyped on your rambles into the mountains, Adan.

@Mike and Art,

I'm still running in the PI Trail N2 and the N1, depending on the run. Last weekend I wore my pure grits for the first time in many months- definitely appreciated the extra cushion. Any idea what's causing the pain Art? Visited a therapist? Maybe it's your body's way of saying "run the ups, walk the downs"?

Have any of you run in the Inov8 Trailroc shoes? I scored a pair of Trailroc 245s on clearance. I have a feeling they're going to ride really low.

Adan Lopez
(Lopez) - F

Locale: San Gabriel Valley
Re: Re: nice pics! on 11/26/2013 22:46:14 MST Print View

"Underwater hunting it is then".

Good comeback. Looking forward to pictures man. In other news, I must have been a bit sloppy with my ice axe on Baldy Sunday because I vaguely remember taking a good bell-ringer on the knee cap with it at one point. I was surprised at how little it hurt at the moment and I continued on for a really nice 6 mile run back down. Fast forward 24hrs and I feel a little something tingly there. Another 24hrs and I can hardly walk. Running on pause until the knee forgives.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Re: 3rd Annual BPL Spring Run -Zion Training Thread on 11/29/2013 21:23:00 MST Print View

Pretty chill week on my end so far, took some time to recover from last weekends 50K with zero running. Felt pretty shitty up until about Wed., but have rebounded nicely the last few days. Didn't run a single mile yesterday, in fact it never crossed my mind. Enjoyed the hell out of Thanksgiving with my family and friends over two different dinners and many glasses of wine and beer.

Wasn't up for running today, but the warm weather lulled me out the door this afternoon for a ride with some friends on the singlespeed. I'm not in great bike shape right now, at least not the shape these guys are in, but managed to keep up. I guess you can call today a cross training day or whatever. A few hours out on the singletrack and rock gardens...

Ripping A riding mate, ripping through a technical section.


I pulled the trigger on registering for the Black Canyon 100K on Feb. 15th in AZ. Jamil Coury of Aravaipa Running is putting it on, so it should be a great race- point to point course along the Black Canyon Trail in Central AZ. This will be my first time running that distance and definitely a good focus point going into winter. I'm a little nervous about running the distance, but I figure there's only one way to see what it's all about.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: 3rd Annual BPL Spring Run -Zion Training Thread on 11/29/2013 21:35:17 MST Print View

You're killing it Eugene. The only thing that could potentially give you trouble with a 100K is going too fast. I think you've certainly got the fitness to finish with a respectable time.

Here's two pics from my spearing adventures at the Channel Islands the other day. I wish I had a GoPro; I was getting followed and chased by seals for half the day. One tried to get the perch off my stringer.

1

2

Edited by xnomanx on 11/29/2013 21:36:43 MST.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Re: Re: Re: 3rd Annual BPL Spring Run -Zion Training Thread on 11/29/2013 21:53:57 MST Print View

That top photograph....damn. Blowing my mind.

How do you feel after a full day of freediving out in big water? You have to feel pretty spent by days end with a mean appetite.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: Re: Re: 3rd Annual BPL Spring Run -Zion Training Thread on 11/29/2013 22:15:01 MST Print View

To be honest, the most exhausting part of this trip was nerves. I had my kids with me and took shifts taking them out snorkeling between spearing runs. It's deep water, prime for sharks, and still a little nerve wracking to have them out there with me. Statistically I suppose the risks are minimal, but it certainly doesn't feel that way when a 10 year old is clinging to you and shivering after jumping overboard.

__________________


On the running note, you guys have permission to call me out as a complete chump if I don't report back with a decent trail run by Monday.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: 3rd Annual BPL Spring Run -Zion Training Thread on 11/29/2013 22:44:32 MST Print View

Craig, I just finished reading up your latest post over at the 'Garden'. Without a doubt in my mind, I would be sharing the same thoughts and trepidation as your children were likely going through out on the water. Peering into the deep, dark, cold water, with shadows and unknown things lurking- conditions that may as well be out of this world for me nearly a thousands miles inland. You are blessing your children with positive experiences that build them up. Thanks for the inspiration.

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Week 1 Training on 11/30/2013 07:10:22 MST Print View

week 1 S. - 17 TR, S - weights, M. -TM(65,13,5.5), T-weights, W - TM(65,13,5.4), H - Eating plus 5 recovery walk, F - 35 fast hike

TR - Trail run
TM - Treadmill(minutes, max incline at 4.5mph, max speed walking)
Weights - all upper body

For the last four years I have trained for a spring event, TRT, PCT, R2R2R, Bob Open starting about Thanksgiving. So Week 1 was this week. The biggest difference in this year's philosophy is to push to limits without injury. Previous years I have ignored the latter part but as I age I get a bit wiser and a bit slower to heal so I am willing to back off some individual objectives to prevent injury.

I am now fully addicted to hitting the gym especially the treadmill routine. This routine has worked well in duplicating closely my normal fast hiking events. After a brief warmup I set the treadmill at 4.5 mph and then increase the incline by 1 degree per minute maxing out at 13 degrees this week then decreasing back down to level. At level I increase the speed .1 mph up to a max of about 5.4 mph and then back down. This is all done walking, not running and I have found this routine has significantly increased my trail speed.

On Saturday I did an easy 17 miles on a rail trail. I think completely flat courses may be harder than rolling hills since you use the exact same muscles over and over. Friday was a very successful, failed hike on the NY section of the AT. My intent was my the first 40 mile day in a few months. But a combination of factors led to me cutting it short at 35 miles, I couldn't find my headlamp when it got dark. It was a very solid hike, total speed was a bit over 3mpd for the full 35. I can honestly say that with the intensity of this week every muscle in my body is sore, not hurting, so this is great feeling.

A few pictures from Friday. Not the wowness of the west but still great to be out in the fresh air.

ferguson falls
Fitzgerald Falls

Cat Rocks
Cat Rocks with Eastern Pinnacle in Background. (The trail went over miles of these ridges.)

Greenwood Lake
greenwood Lake on NY/NJ Border

Adan Lopez
(Lopez) - F

Locale: San Gabriel Valley
Training on 11/30/2013 08:32:41 MST Print View

Craig, killer images man. Lets talk about getting me geared up to spear soon. A spearing hike around Catalina would be pretty cool. A lot of my cross training is with surfing in mind, so of course I'm looking forward to that too. The ocean, she's a beautiful and powerful force, and I feel her pull as well each time I go.

Greg, your training week would damn near kill me. I gotta step it up man, thanks for the boost. Can I read about your bob Marshall hike somewhere?

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Bob Open on 11/30/2013 09:12:01 MST Print View

Adan,
Here is last year trip report at the bottom of the page.
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=67376&startat=80

Here is this year's thread. it will be an additional 30-40 miles longer depending on route.
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=81296

Last years event was some of the finest hiking I have ever done. Come join us, Zion will be the perfect training.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Training on 12/01/2013 09:07:48 MST Print View

Greg
you're a monster as usual.

Craig
I can't see calling you out just yet, you did a great job simply walking the route at J-Tree, I'm sure you'll come thru.

Eugene
your first 100K, a big step. even more important to take it out slow. some say to view a 100K as a short 100 miler but I would not go that far. just make your long runs a tad longer in preparation, then start slow and stay slow on race day.

Adan
good to see you out there, how is the pain management going ?

Mike
you may be the breakout ultra runner of the year in this group you're coming along great

Me
happy to report I'm off the bottom. had a 29 and 27 mile week, then did a 16 miler yesterday so should hit the mid 30's this week.
a couple injuries are still not healed so I need to be careful, but what else is new when you're running ultras.

p.s.
John V.
yes a monster too, but with an addiction to spending money on official events, the RD's love him, easy money.
I've stopped trying to keep up with his mileage.
he'll be there in April.

Edited by asandh on 12/01/2013 09:12:44 MST.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Zion Training on 12/01/2013 15:40:34 MST Print View

Eugene- good on you, a 100k is a serious outing! You'll be in tip top shape by April

Craig- nice photos, didn't even know there was a sea perch- how do they eat?

Greg- that's an impressive week of training!

Art- your mileage is gaining rapidly, hope you can shake your injuries soon

I had a good week, got my 5 year grandson to hike the M on Mt Sentinel on Thanksgiving- it's only about two miles, but gains ~ 650' of elevation, the next way we did the L on Mt Jumbo- again about 2 miles w/ ~ 500' of elevation gain- he loved it!

week looked like this: strength/4.5/0/0/strength/15/10= 29.5 miles w/ ~ 7000' of elevation gain

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Re: Zion Training on 12/05/2013 22:37:51 MST Print View

These pics are from this past Sunday's longish run (14 miles). This was an atypical run for me, but I was pressed for time. I headed straight out the front door and hit the irrigation ditch behind our neighborhood, took that west towards the Rio Grande and headed north in the riverbed for an out and back. Pretty much a pancake flat run since I was running at the bottom of the Mesilla Valley, but it was a good mix of comfortably hard tempo miles on the ditches and levee leading out and back, and a few miles of running in the sand and gravel of the seasonally dry Rio Grande in between (*betcha didn't know it goes belly up this far south come winter).

I hear there's a shit load of sand in Zion. Sand running is smart training right?

poop

poop 2

poop3

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
sand running on 12/06/2013 07:13:46 MST Print View

we (I?) found out last spring @ Joshua Tree that running in the sand is very tough- I think it contributed greatly to the wheels coming off for me

from what I've read we do have a pretty decent stretch of sand in the earlier portion of the run, so yes sand running should be great training :)

Adan Lopez
(Lopez) - F

Locale: San Gabriel Valley
Zion on 12/06/2013 10:20:35 MST Print View

Greg, Your Bob report was fun. In my perfect world, I would probably be very much into these types of events. In my real world, I value peaceful wilderness time very much and this kind of training would pretty much make that impossible with the little time I have already getting out. Training for Zion is much easier in my view, it's just running trails. I will follow that thread with interest though, what a blast.

Art, my ITB issue finally is behind me, if one can ever really say that. However, my cramping issue that I enjoyed so much in JT...separate beast. After much research, I have discovered I have some "interesting" cramping/fasciculation activity to contend with. Still hoping the "train harder, race slower" comes through for me and allows me to continue hanging with you chiseled dynamos.

Craig, I finally got the ice axe extracted from my knee. Damn knee better get it's shit together while there's still snow on the ground or I will amputate. I'll be back on the move next weekend, let's get out.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: sand running on 12/06/2013 10:43:04 MST Print View

sand running, training
yeah I'm gonna have to run on the beach now and then, shirt off to catch some rays ...

Adan
yes it was your cramping I was asking about, pretty strange, but if you start very slow and stay slow, just a walk in the park.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: sand running on 12/06/2013 11:49:16 MST Print View

I learned in J Tree that MT110s are the worst sand running shoe n the world. The sand pour in the outer, getting trapped between it and the inner. I probably lost an hour just to emptying my shoes.

So I'm going to keep polluting this here running thread with surfing.
This was a local spot on Thanksgiving morning (not my photo though):

1

The last week has been too good. The hell with running with waves like this. I'll ultra-pedestrian the whole whole damned trail if I have to. For now, surfing.

Nice pics Eugene, I like the second quite a bit.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Re: sand running on 12/06/2013 12:42:08 MST Print View

Dang, you were surfing in that? Gotta be a least 20' ?

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: Re: Re: sand running on 12/06/2013 13:02:21 MST Print View

Nope, not me. That thing was definitely a rogue. I would've spoiled my wetsuit.
The average was 2-4' overhead, more like this: (again, not my photo, but shot locally last Friday):
1
Pure fun.
It's gotten smaller through the week, but still a ton of fun.

So that's my excuse.

Someone's going to yell at me for all this thread drift.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: sand running on 12/06/2013 14:08:22 MST Print View

Craig - as long as you can break 17 hours on April 5th
and you have to go the whole 48 as punishment for all this surfing ...

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: sand running on 12/06/2013 16:37:27 MST Print View

"I would've spoiled my wetsuit"

I would have SOILED mine :)

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Here's a support thought on 12/06/2013 16:42:21 MST Print View

Okay, I am NOT interested in running in such a beautiful place -- better to walk it over a few days and explore, and am getting to old for long runs anyway.

But I have been watching the thread and posting since I have been thinking about doing a camping trip in Zion. The boss has wanted to go there for awhile.

It is too far away time-wise to plan and I have to run it by the boss. I'm sure she would be happy to go.

Anyway, if we camp there for a week or two we would be able to help with the shuttle duties and our large camper would make for a good base camp. Plus the Idster could come out and entertain us. So maybe.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
support on 12/06/2013 17:34:59 MST Print View

Nick- that would be great if you and the boss could make it, would love to meet a few more bpl folks- same goes for Doug :)

Mike

Adan Lopez
(Lopez) - F

Locale: San Gabriel Valley
Surfing on 12/06/2013 21:28:36 MST Print View

Dammit Wisner! Will you stop screwing around in that damn water and get out here, we got real work to do!! There's snow in the hills and the trails are wiped out and mountains all crystallized and shit, you damn hippie!!

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
weak week :) on 12/09/2013 07:35:09 MST Print View

with temps at or below 0 every day last week, I was forced on the treadmill and didn't log too many miles- there clearly are some different mechanics running on a treadmill, it feels "funny", also I found myself more sore than normal

week went: strength/5.5/6/0/strength/0/9- total 20.5 miles, maybe my lowest week of the year???

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: weak week :) on 12/09/2013 09:07:02 MST Print View

I get nausea (motion sickness) whenever I try to run on a tread mill, fortunately I don't have to ... although we did get down to a frigid 55* yesterday, a big cold spell.

hit 37 miles last week with a semi long run of 16.
still trying to figure out my hip/groin injury and hoping a bunch of ab work and stretch therapy will do it, we'll see.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: weak week :) on 12/09/2013 16:46:51 MST Print View

"there clearly are some different mechanics running on a treadmill, it feels "funny","

Yes. On a treadmill your stride is exerting force in the same direction the belt is moving, which makes it real easy to exaggerate your back kick, which in turn makes it easy to hyperextend your back. Best to shorten your stride and watch your back kick if you are going to use the tread mill. Back in the day, I tried a couple of sessions on a tread mill and could immediately feel the effect on my back, so I gave it up and used the step mill instead in really bad weather.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Re: weak week :) on 12/09/2013 17:35:08 MST Print View

Art- good week, hope the healing is quick!

Tom-that makes sense; unfortunately this gym doesn't have a good old fashion stair machine- my old gym did and it was a very good workout!

Edited by mtwarden on 12/09/2013 17:36:11 MST.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Re: Re: Re: weak week :) on 12/09/2013 22:41:59 MST Print View

What I lacked in volume this week I kinda made up for in quality. Saturday's run brought a big smile to my face- the clouds put on a show in the range as a cold front blew through our area . Got in some decent vertical and kept the effort high on this run. The crux of this route finishes with a nearly 1000' climb in about 3/4 of a mile, with very few switchbacks, so it's a lung buster and I have to throttle back (*full on powerhike) to avoid going completely anaerobic. This will be my "bread and butter" training route on climb days in preparation for the big hike out of Zion canyon.

face

mist

ridgeline

cactifrozen

inversion

Forgive the gratuitous photo dumping on my end, but run photographs motivate me more than stats!

David W.
(Davidpcvsamoa) - MLife

Locale: East Bay, CA
Re: Re: weak week :) on 12/09/2013 22:49:07 MST Print View

No forgiveness necessary. Beautiful training grounds and nice photos!

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
pics on 12/10/2013 07:13:57 MST Print View

Eugene- very nice! Sounds (and looks) like a dandy training ground.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Re: pics on 12/10/2013 09:25:26 MST Print View

Thanks Mike. We don't have the greatest organized trail system here, but proximity to the trails from my door is hard to beat and there are never crowds. You definitely have to work for the runs and get creative with the trails around here, but it's worth it.

Climbing Magazine just recently did a spotlight on my area, specifically the Organ Mtns where I do my longer runs.

http://www.climbing.com/route/230229/


Anyways, I'm teetering on the edge of thread drift. Happy running this week folks.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: pics on 12/10/2013 09:50:48 MST Print View

Nice pics Eugene.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Re: Re: pics on 12/10/2013 10:53:33 MST Print View

now if someone was good with Photoshop they could combine Eugene's great mountain photos with Craig's great ocean photos and make the ultimate experience ...

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Re: 3rd Annual BPL Spring Run -Zion Training Thread on 12/12/2013 18:49:24 MST Print View

It's nice and quiet in our little thread, which is a good sign.

My week has been going alright, just consistent running. Haven't missed a day this week. I only had 30 minutes today to fit in a run, so I decided to run a short tempo, got in 5K at 21:33. I know at Zion my pace will at least double, not that pace matters much there, but it's good to break out of the usual training routine and work the legs and lungs differently.


The weekend is ahead, what are you guys cooking up? Any long runs planned?

I'm shooting for a 3-4hr. run with a friend on Sunday morning if nothing comes up with the familia.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
weekend on 12/12/2013 21:30:27 MST Print View

we're finally enjoying some close to normal weather- so I'm off of the treadmill! the snow we have is just about perfect, not too much to hinder running a lot and enough to provide some nice cushioning I'm hoping to get in a nice 15-18 mile run, with the elevation and snow, probably 3.5-4 ish hours

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: weekend on 12/13/2013 09:09:44 MST Print View

I'll be doing a 22-24 miler on Saturday, in our local mountains (Laguna Mts.)
my first 20 miler in almost 3 months.
elevation tops out at around 6,000 ft. and usually one week a year there is enough snow so I can cross country ski, but no snow right now,
will take it nice and slow so as not to aggravate any injuries (hopefully).
I'll be running with John, he's hinting the mileage may be too short for him and he may stay out there for more, so its a 2 car day.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: 3rd Annual BPL Spring Run -Zion Training Thread on 12/13/2013 09:13:13 MST Print View

I'm doing an overnight tonight, no big miles though, more of a whiskey-by-the-fire, yelling-poems-at-the-sky sort of affair.
Hope to run about 3 hours in my canyons on Sunday morning.

Jacob D
(JacobD) - F

Locale: North Bay
Re: pics on 12/13/2013 11:57:24 MST Print View

Great photos on the thread guys. Wish I had something to contribute but for now I'm just using it for motivation.

My training has been more like slapping up drywall, dragging junk around, shit like that. Rock Balboa style... or not. I'm headed back to the new place to do some work this weekend I think I'll take time to go for a beach run. Sand running sounds like a good idea.

For whatever reason the sand at J Tree didn't bother me last year; well, ok that last downhill section that had been pounded to death by horses was really loose but aside from that it was all good. In fact, I suspect it helped out my outer knee pain by making for softer impacts. Just speculation.

Adan Lopez
(Lopez) - F

Locale: San Gabriel Valley
Knee on 12/13/2013 21:20:45 MST Print View

The old leg hinge is finally starting to squeak a bit less. Must be all the rest I got at the hospital with my daughter the last few days. Now that she is feeling better and the scare is over, things are getting back on track. I got out a 3 mile knee tester today. Soreness for sure but seems to have returned to full strength/stability. Still, low miles for me, at least for another week or two. Once again the local pool is coming in handy for getting those underwater miles while the knee recovers.

I'm excited for the coming "winter" and getting my gear tweaked a bit in that regard. I have an idea for gaiters that will integrate with micro spikes instead of going under them, so working on that next. Also going to try a mod on my Golite Rush to add ice axe loops and a special pocket for micro spikes. Typically though, these kinds of projects languish and I end up doing fine without, but I can dream.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
training on 12/15/2013 13:55:36 MST Print View

Adan- glad to hear the knee is feeling better! We are enjoying some really nice weather (the opposite of last week!)- so nice this afternoon I was in shorts and shirtsleeves :)

Had a pretty good week: strength/0/5.5/7/strength/14/7 33.5 miles and lots of elevation

My run yesterday I saw some relatively fresh lion tracks crossing over a ridge, at my turnaround point I saw a sign that indicates others have seen the lion(s). My long run was only 14 miles, but over 3000' of elevation gain- w/ four pretty good climbs

 photo eddyelion_zps0bba59cc.jpg

 photo eddyetop_zps98fbb761.jpg

 photo eddyeelevation_zps54060b97.jpg

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Re: training on 12/15/2013 19:32:06 MST Print View

Yea buddy, looks good Mike, solid run. Glad to hear you were able to show some skin with the warmer weather.

Was you're route and out and back?

I ran 21 miles this morning with a running mate who is getting ready to run the Bandera 100K in a few weeks. Kept the pace steady, not too slow, not too fast, wrapping up just under 4hrs which is what we wanted, with two short stops to pack out some trash.

I haven't been fueling on anything during my weekly runs and today took in about ~250 calories (x2 apple sauce squeeze packs and x2 clementine oranges and 30oz. of water). This worked fine for me today, despite being a less than ideal amount of calories, but I need to start incorporating smarter fueling into my long runs, preferably something that mimics what I'll use at Zion. Fueling is easily my weakest area. I struggle with eating early and consistently from the beginning.

This is more gear related and of little importance, but I picked up a pair of Trailrock 245s at a price that was hard to pass on. I have no idea how people run ultras in them. I did 8 miles on my first run in them and felt a little tender afterwards. Love the traction and the fit, but don't care much for the initial rigidity in the outsole and the lack of midsole plush I'm used to. I'll rotate these into the mix, but keep them for runs under 10 miles I think.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Training on 12/15/2013 19:40:41 MST Print View

Good week Mike.

Monday: surfing, 1.5 hours/yoga (10 sun salutations, my standard practice)
Tuesday: yoga/cross training
Wednesday: 5K road run (26:42)/yoga
Thursday:cross/yoga
Friday: surfing 1.5 hours/backpacking (4 miles)
Saturday: backpacking (4 miles)
Sunday: yoga/trail run (6 miles, 1:14, 1,300'gain)

And that's my week. Nothing to speak of, save for the backpacking trip (in trip reports).
I'm coming up on winter break and have some big plans for some loops/miles in the mountains.
I'm thinking considerably about approaching this Zion thing differently...Instead of doing many weekly maintenance miles, I might try and focus on getting in one really big (25 to 40 mile) hike/run every other week until then. I'm just not feeling the weekly running right now, but I'm still very inspired to do bigger stuff in the mountains/deserts. If it means I'm doing Zion as an ultrapedestrian vs. runner, that's fine by me.
As I only have about 1 month of small game/upland bird hunting season left, I'm going to start running and gunning over the next weeks as well.

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
I'm green with envy on 12/15/2013 20:13:32 MST Print View

Pretty much holed up here in PA with the snow. Had some knee issues with both knees over the last couple of weeks, likely overtraining a bit. Easing back in and pushing to pain threshold. Will update training soon.

Mike, I would love to have your training ground.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
out & back on 12/16/2013 07:24:39 MST Print View

Eugene- yes it was an out and back, there are several opportunities for loops, but I wanted to hit the second ridge from both sides. It's a really neat trail that was just recently acquired- we're very fortunate w/ the miles of trails so close by

Regarding fueling-I've found over the last year that I might have been over doing it a bit. I cut my Perpetuem mix in half and haven't suffered any nausea since (knock on wood). I've also cut back my blocks and bars a bit- averaging about 250 cal/hr total vs about 350 cal/hr previously

Craig- sounds like a good week :)

Greg- looking at your last weeks volume, I don't think a little down time will hurt!

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Real Mountain Training on 12/16/2013 07:31:59 MST Print View

I need to start bringing a camera like you guys (no I don't run with a phone).
Could have posted some pics of what Real mountain running is. I crawled under, over, and thru more downed trees, on Saturday's 22 miler, than on any run I have ever done. Apparently there was a recent wind storm in our local mountains that knocked over quite a few ... mostly dead from a fire a decade ago.
needless to say, we didn't set any speed records.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Real Mountain Training on 12/16/2013 17:30:30 MST Print View

blowdown makes for a really tough go (unless you're a hurdler :) ); I remember hiking through the Gila in some really heavy blowdown- it made for a very sloooooow go- Eugene knows where I'm talking about

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Great trail run on 12/16/2013 19:09:34 MST Print View

I just finished one of my favorite trail runs ever. It wasn't the longest, fastest or even in the coolest area. I headed out to the AT, about a half hour from my house. I arrived at 6:30 and started the 4 mile run. The cool part was that it was twenty degree, there was several inches of snow on the ground and a very bright full moon. I ended up running it without even using a headlamp. There was something so incredibly about the peace and the absolute feel that I was alive.

Adan Lopez
(Lopez) - F

Locale: San Gabriel Valley
moonlight running on 12/17/2013 16:19:02 MST Print View

Yes! Greg, thats awesome, man. those kinds of runs are what keeps me going. Sometimes, things just click, the moon is right, the wind is right, and i cant stop smiling the whole way. Thanks for reminding me man!

I tried climbing Baldy at night several weeks back during our first snow of the year. No headlamp, solo, and snow covering large portions of the trail. That was the best hiking I've done in a while. Stumbled and slipped the whole way, but the energy, adventure and just aliveness was palpable. love it.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Re: Great trail run on 12/17/2013 22:15:11 MST Print View

There is something about saying "f@%k it" and throwing caution to the wind, and heading out for a run, completely engaged in the present, without distraction. I appreciate those runs above all. Adan nailed it in describing the palpability of energy and that sense of "aliveness" we can experience. You know when you're taking part in the unfolding of something really awesome.

Thanks for sharing the stoke Greg, it's contagious.

Mike Schasch
(MSchasch) - F
zion on 12/19/2013 23:26:30 MST Print View

Hey there, cool thread. I've been looking to do trans zion for a while (I live, run, work in Zion). Is this a pre-determined group of folks? Like, are you guys ok with having more join in? What month is this going down? Everyone running their own pace or trying to stick together?

I've got about a years worth of running experience and many years of suffering in the wilderness in various capacities. Running my first race in Feb (moab 55k).

Here is a West Rim running picture from October:
West Rim Zion

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Zion on 12/20/2013 06:46:20 MST Print View

Mike- details here:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=81998





Mike

Edited by mtwarden on 12/20/2013 06:46:57 MST.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Re: zion on 12/20/2013 10:17:10 MST Print View

Mike,

That photo of yours is excellent. What area are you overlooking?

Definitely refer to the other thread Mike linked that has more trip details. Things may seem fluid at the moment but trip plans and logistics will firm up as we get closer.

Feel free to share any progress on training in this thread. This thread has become part support group and source of inspiration.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: zion on 12/20/2013 10:53:05 MST Print View

Mike S - I'm sure there is room for you to join in.

Moab 55K is a classic race.

Mike Schasch
(MSchasch) - F
zion on 12/20/2013 11:03:38 MST Print View

Thanks for the info! I think you guys have it right running west to east. You will end with a nice gradual 1000 feet of descent, rather than 1000 foot climb.

That pic was from the West Rim overlooking Phantom Valley - a beautiful and hard to access area. Hope that didn't spoil one of the surprises.

Going on a long run right now!

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Real Mountain Training on 12/23/2013 16:05:21 MST Print View

1

This Saturday Adan and I "ran" Baden-Powell (9,407'), taking a roughly 10 mile (RT), 2,500' gain route to the summit....only it turned into a 6 hour postholing festival.
A great day out there nonetheless.
A few more pics here:
Sweeping the Garden: Mt. Baden-Powell

...............

Last night my daughter was sick...After the third time I cleaned vomit covered sheets and showered her, it was 3:50AM and I hadn't slept at all. I packed a quick bag and stole out the door to climb Mt. Baldy (10,064'). ~10 miles RT and ~4,500 feet of gain, microspikes needed for about 1 mile of it. I summited in 1'50", was back at the car in 3'07".

A good last few days in the mountains for me...

Edited by xnomanx on 12/23/2013 16:14:01 MST.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Re: Real Mountain Training on 12/23/2013 16:45:55 MST Print View

Now that looks and sounds like like Real Fun !

sorry about your daughter, but you seemed to be taking care of business there too.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Re: Re: Real Mountain Training on 12/23/2013 18:15:50 MST Print View

Craig- looks and sounds like a couple of good grinds! My week was so-so, got two 6 mile runs in mid-week, headed out for a 20 miler on Saturday and got blown off the ridge (it was dead calm when I left the house)- I ended up eeking 11 miles out of it. I was going to shoot for another 10 or so on Sunday, but I could feel a cold coming on so I dropped that plan- still in the battle of fighting it, but I might be winning-went out for a quick 6 miles this evening.

Heck of a storm rolling in w/ the wind, but then I saw the lucky horseshoe and knew I was alright :)

Merry Christmas everyone!

 photo impendingstorm_zpsc51623b6.jpg

 photo luckyhorseshoe_zpsb9874c89.jpg

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
This week in running... on 12/27/2013 20:50:43 MST Print View

Slacked a bit this week and haven't run since this past Monday. I've been enjoying tamales, beer, and family. I also turned 30 on Tuesday, which I hear is some kind of milestone.

Last Sunday I linked up a route that I've been wanting to do for a while, which turned out to be a killer run with a fair bit of climbing and powerhiking the steep stuff. I was on my feet for 5 hrs., and felt a little toasted on my short recovery run on Monday, so a successful long run for the weekend. We had a small low front blow through that Saturday, so it was brisk in the dawn as I headed out by headlamp for the trailhead. The views were great and we could see about 90 miles to our NW the Black Range along the CDT, capped with a dusting of fresh pow.

first light

fillmore

scramble

stack

sanatorium

ridge

west

trailroc


Tomorrow I'm heading to Dog Canyon at Oliver Lee SP to run up to the National Solar Observatory in Sunspot, NM, about 4,800' of vertical up to the turnaround.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: This week in running... on 12/28/2013 09:23:16 MST Print View

Looks like you're starting to ramp up the Adventure Eugene.

Did you say 30 ?
by Catra's rule you're supposed to do a 30 hour run ...

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: This week in running... on 12/28/2013 10:19:03 MST Print View

Happy birthday Eugene.

I especially like the 5th picture down. Surreal.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Re: This week in running... on 12/29/2013 16:50:38 MST Print View

Eugene- Happy Birthday (mine is today :)) not the best week training for me, got a 6 mile run in Monday and then either suffered through the flu or the worst cold I've ever had all through the holiday week; felt better today and got another 6 in for a grand total of 12 for the week.

I do get Wed off and will do the traditional new year in miles run, so 14- just need to pick out a fun route.

Looks like I will hit ~ 1700 miles for the year, that's about 200 more than 2012- all in all, a good year!

Mike

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
A great test on 12/29/2013 17:41:17 MST Print View

It haven't ran/walked/hiked a 40 miler since April in preparation for the Bob open. I had had a couple of low to mid 30s over the last couple of months but my focus has been more on my treadmill routines and overall fitness. It was time to test out the effectiveness of this training. Friday I headed up to New York for a fast hike of the Harriman/Bear Mountain section of the AT. After hiking in 10 miles I was asleep by 6pm in preparation for my 4am wake up.

My early start had me hiking 3 hours in the dark. I had a serious navigation error but it worked out well and I was able to see a remote part of the park and still get in the target miles. It was an incredible hiking day. Cool but pleasant, ground frost crunching under my feet. In the distance I was able to make out the NY skyline, both in the dark and later in the day. This section of trail while not remote had much to offer. I walked through a zoo and across the Bear Mountain bridge to Anthony's Nose where this picture was taken.
Bear Bridge

the landscape was hills and lakes.
Harriman

I am guessing that there was 8-9000' of elevation gain. I ran very little, focusing instead of maintaining a fast hiking pace as long as possible and I was strong for the whole 40 miles. I raced the setting sun but the sun won. But I was not a loser in this game. My reward was another beautiful sunset and the final half hour of night hiking in the cool evening air. I ended up maintaining a 3 mph pace including breaks which is a bit slow for this kind of day but this will improve as I increase the ratio of running to hiking.
Lemon squeezer

This was a solid day and confirms that my treadmill routines have succeeded in getting me in much better shape. I am a couple of months ahead of previous years' fitness levels for my spring events. I am hoping to recover quickly. I have two more 40 mile day needed to complete the NY AT twice. Maybe later this week.

Happy Birthday Eugene and please all of you keep the pictures coming. I miss the west.

Mike Schasch
(MSchasch) - F
training on 12/29/2013 22:39:36 MST Print View

Cool to see some San Gabriel photos up there. I was in Palmdale for Christmas visiting the folks. Hiked the Mount Emmas with my dad one day, ran into some guys smoking meth near one of the summits.....ahhh Palmdale. For that same week I got in a 9.5 miler (half of which I spent lost in the snow), a 5.5 miler on a wonderful new to me trail in St George, and a 16 miler for a long run.

I applaud those who were able to get any real distance in this week with all the holidays and laziness. I got in two 4 mile runs while I was still in California, an icy canyoneering hike in Zion - 8 miles/2500 ft of gain, and a 12 mile snow run on a groomed trail in Park City today.

No running pics but here are some canyoneering photos from the other day: https://picasaweb.google.com/107561442771983387605/Mystery

Happy Birthday dudes!

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Happy New Year! on 01/05/2014 08:09:30 MST Print View

best wishes to everyone! I started off the new year w/ a 14 mile (2014) run, temps were great, mid 30's, trail conditions were challenging w/ lots of ice, but other stretches that were perfectly dry- I ran the entire route in micropikes as the conditions changed too rapidly, the spikes performed flawlessly

week was 0/0/14/6/strength/15/0 for a total of 35 miles

 photo microspikes_zps7bec5bd5.jpg

 photo mirkwood_zpsfdc89b14.jpg

looking east towards the Elkhorns

 photo lookingeast_zps885b9742.jpg

looking north towards the Big Belts

 photo lookingnorth_zpsd64d11ab.jpg

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Happy New Year! on 01/05/2014 08:41:06 MST Print View

Happy New Year to Everyone,
Whatever you decide to run.

looking strong Mike, did you decide the screws weren't good enough ?

I'm officially back up to 40 mile weeks,
but was supposed to do a 22 miler yesterday and copped out for a 10 miler with lots of gain. so as soon as I finish this coffee I'm out the door for a make-up 11-12 miler.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
screws on 01/05/2014 08:59:45 MST Print View

Art- most of the winter the screws are sufficient, but when you get a lot glazed ice they just don't cut it- the microspikes dig deeply into the ice allowing you to run across anything

I prefer running w/o the spikes, but they are a godsend when you need them :)

Mike

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
ice stache on 01/05/2014 11:34:49 MST Print View

pic from post yesterday's run :)

 photo icestache_zps82d44e49.jpg

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: ice stache on 01/05/2014 11:45:53 MST Print View

RAD!!!

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
New Shoe Quiver... on 01/05/2014 13:47:06 MST Print View

I have a pair of NB MT20v2 on the way…Heading out to pick up a pair of Inov8 Trailroc 255s this afternoon.
Looking to change my quiver up a little bit.

I've been going long in a pair of NB110s or Brooks Cascadia 7s. The 110s are about worn out and the Cascadias are not my first choice (too much heel), but I got them for free. Looking to get a little more nimble and less drop with the Trailroc 255s. Hopefully I'll be happy with these as my distance shoe.

The MT20s will be my <12 mile shoe (I love minimal but I've found that's about my tolerance level before the lack of support/rock plate starts causing foot issues). I had a few pairs of MT10s back in the day…hands down, my favorite shoe ever for short distances. I wish the durability were higher, but I suppose it comes with the territory for a shoe that feels like a sock.

I really want to try a pair of Trailroc 150s but nobody around here stocks them.

What are all of you liking these days?

Ozzy McKinney
(PorcupinePhobia) - F

Locale: PNW
footwear quiver on 01/05/2014 15:30:50 MST Print View

I have a pair of Bedrock Earthquakes that I really like, but for really wet/rocky stuff I've been using a pair of MYOG 10mm huaraches with canvas tops that are nice and non-slip next to skin.

Winters are pretty mild up here in the Puget Sound, so dealing with ice and snow is usually optional- stay low. On 30-40 degree days where I know I'm going to be soaked and chilly, I wear some Costco wool socks that I chopped and sewed into "lobster socks" to wear with sandals.

Edited by PorcupinePhobia on 01/05/2014 17:52:39 MST.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: New Shoe Quiver... on 01/05/2014 15:55:03 MST Print View

Craig- I've been having good luck w/ either the PI Trail N1's or N2's (N2's if it's rockier terrain), I have been wanting to try a pair of Inov-8's for awhile (my wife is using a pair of 245's), but haven't yet

Mike

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Re: New Shoe Quiver... on 01/05/2014 16:51:08 MST Print View

my current two shoes of choice are :

Cascadia 7 - yes they are "tanks" as Craig described them once, but they are built for long mileage, meaning more than 50 miles. I feel very protected in them, but yes I do also feel a bit slow and heavy in them.

Pearl Izumi Peak II - no longer made, these are the predecessors to the N1 and N2.
I love running in them for 20 miles or less, they almost make me feel like a runner.
I've used them on a nonstop 45 miler in the Sierra, and on the J-Tree run last spring.
50 miles is probably their limit for a run, but they might handle a multi day fast pack that is longer.

Looking forward to trying out the PI N2's and hoping they somehow meld what is best about the above two models.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: Re: New Shoe Quiver... on 01/05/2014 17:01:12 MST Print View

I really wanted the Inov8 Trailroc 255s to work, but trying them on again today, they just are a little weird in the toe for me.

I guess I'll be sticking with the Cascadia 7s for a little longer. Might go ahead and try the Cascadia 9s when I wear them out- supposed to have a little less drop than previous models.

The Cascadias are an awesome shoe- very comfortable, I've done some long runs and a good deal of backpacking in them. Like you said Art, they really shine when miles start getting high. I just wish they had a little less stack height.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: New Shoe Quiver... on 01/05/2014 17:19:20 MST Print View

I tried the Cascadia 9's on in the store last week.
I don't have the specs yet but the stack height feels similar to the 7's.
what I do like is a change in the front that seems to make you role onto the toe much easier. These could be the most runnable Cascadias yet.

I would not waste money on the 8's,go straight to the 9's.

Ozzy McKinney
(PorcupinePhobia) - F

Locale: PNW
cascadias on 01/05/2014 17:53:53 MST Print View

Craig, what size do you wear? I have a pair of size 14 cascadia 8s with plenty of life left you can have.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Re: training on 01/07/2014 21:59:00 MST Print View

The last two weeks have been a mixed bag for me. Last week was a bit of a recovery week with few miles run. Got in a solid 23 mile adventure run the week before last up in the Sacramento Mtns. and Dog Canyon, my first run back here in years, with a healthy 4800' of vertical up to the turnaround. We ran the first 3K' up to the top of the rim, but hit snow from that point all the way up to the Sunspot Solar Observatory which sits at 9200'. Weather conditions were absolutely perfect, but the crusty pow took it out of us on the climb. Running down was fun and we picked up the pace where we could coming back down. I love these runs far more than any obligatory training run and feel I gain much from these experiences.

Saturday's long run was pretty ho hum, but I still got after it and felt strong for the duration.

Here are a few photographs from our Sacramento Mtns./Dog Canyon run:

14

9

10

11

12

15


*Ran this in the Inov8 Trailroc 245. I had only done a few runs in the 245's prior to this one. I really like them for technical trail, but don't see myself running anything over a 50K distance without taking an unnecessary beating on my feet. Love the outsole more than any other feature of the shoe, second would be the low weight of the shoe. They feel damn fast. For dry craggy trail like we have here in the high desert, they're just about perfect for shorter hard effort runs. I also ordered the Trailroc 255 (* are you seeing the trend here? I went a little crazy on kicks the last few weeks) thinking they would have the same feel as the 245 but with some added cushion for training miles. These will work out for longer runs on technical trail, they just don't feel, to me, up for the task of higher volume training miles even with the added midsole cushion and durable upper. For running road to trail stretches, both shoes are bearable, but not for long. I haven't found anything out there this past year as good as the Pearl Izumi Trail N1 and N2 for general running, whether that be road or trail miles.

Edited by Eugeneius on 01/07/2014 22:15:31 MST.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Re: training on 01/08/2014 08:14:21 MST Print View

How far do you live from those trails Eugene ?
nice looking area.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Re: Re: Re: training on 01/08/2014 08:47:04 MST Print View

Art, this area is about 1-1.5 hr east of my town. It's borderlining that distance from home where I start feeling a little guilty about driving to a trailhead for a run. These runs aren't a weekly thing. Most of the trails I run regularly are about 10 min from my door by vehicle.

How about you guys?

I get the impression Mike M. just hops out his front door to the trailhead up there in MT. Craig and Adan seem to be fairly close to the San Gabriels, but "close" by LA standards probably means some form of vehicular commute and traffic.

Do you guys ever hit the road out your door for miles?

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: training on 01/08/2014 09:07:21 MST Print View

local training ...

I live in a very suburban setting, but right next to one of the largest urban open space parks in the country (Mission Trails Park). So lots of trails 5 minutes from my house for short to medium distance runs, and there are even 3-4 hills with up to 1,000 ft of gain. However the biggest one has gotten quite popular as an outdoor gym, I'll have to post a photo of the "conga line" sometime.

For long runs, the local mountains are 45-60 minutes away (6,000 ft elevation), with 40 miles of PCT running thru them. This is where our local ultra races are, SD 100 plus 4 others a bit shorter.

I have to run a minimum of 1 mile on concrete before I hit dirt.
I do sometimes run 4-10 mile road runs with rolling elevation gain/loss to try and increase my leg turnover. Lots of 20+ trail runs with power walking can really slow the legs down.

Edited by asandh on 01/08/2014 09:13:06 MST.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: training on 01/08/2014 09:30:47 MST Print View

Most of my staple runs are out the door to the trail, no car needed. My house is less than one mile from a few different entrances to the Angeles National Forest/San Gabriels. If I don't run, I usually ride my bike to the trailhead. Many of the bigger peaks require driving to the trailhead, but I can do plenty without driving if I want to.

Adan Lopez
(Lopez) - F

Locale: San Gabriel Valley
Run commute on 01/08/2014 10:25:30 MST Print View

During the week, I use 5 trails within 10 minutes drive. A steep hill climb, a fun night-running rollercoaster, a woodsy creek, and a long runnable grind overlooking the city lights. Not spectacular stuff, but enjoyable enough that i look forward to them.

However, on the weekends? Hell no, I'm driving. Exploring new mountains is what fuels my passion for running so I feel it's mandatory. Besides, I drive an hour daily to work, and to me this is just as good a reason to pony up the gas money. I feel 2-3 hours of driving is not too much to ask for something that gives me so much in return and costs nothing otherwise.

Recent firsts for me:
Baldy night-climb. Friday after work, snowy and no headlamp. 1hr driving.
Baden-Powell with Craig. 6hrs fresh powder and ridge walking. 4hrs driving.
San Gorgonio Wilderness, a new favorite camp discovered. 3hrs driving.
Off-trail traverse of Baldy group, discovered some fantastic lines. 1hr drive.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
trailheads on 01/08/2014 17:34:21 MST Print View

Eugene- you're spot on, most of the trails I run are out my backdoor- not sure how many miles of different trail, but it's pretty substantial and if I want to make it long I link several trails together.

One of the reasons I moved from Southeast MT to Westcentral MT

I have a 50k Fatass this weekend, I feel underprepared, but the what the hell :) I do think I'm going to incorporate a run/walk regime ala Galloway; I think I'm going to try a 7.5 min run/2.5 min walk and see how that goes.

Mike

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Re: trailheads on 01/08/2014 20:06:01 MST Print View

We all seem to have it pretty damn good.

Enjoy that 50k this weekend Mike! Your plan sounds foolproof.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: trailheads on 01/08/2014 22:25:32 MST Print View

Mike - Re. your Fatass strategy ...
do it by heart rate.
just pick a heart rate that suits your mood, however much you want to stress yourself. you either run or walk to keep the heart rate constant. this is the most efficient way to get thru it.
you don't even need a heart rate monitor if you have paid attention to your body enough to go by feel.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Re: trailheads on 01/09/2014 07:15:52 MST Print View

Art- interesting, have never paid much attention to heart rate (at least not knowingly)- I do instinctively slow down when headed up hill- I'm sure that is somewhat related to elevating heart rate as you ascend

Mike

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Gila. on 01/14/2014 21:50:40 MST Print View

It's been quiet around here.

Dan Carter and I made it to Silver City, NM this past Saturday to catch a gig my father's band was playing at the grand opening of a new distillery/brewery downtown-it was a great excuse to drive to the Gila for some mountain running beforehand. Luckily, Eric Payne, an occasional BPL'er and online contact of mine for several years now, relocated to Silver City with his family and was up to lead us on one of his favorite running/training routes along a section of the CDT, just a few minutes from town. Saturday's run was about 3hrs. long with a fair amnt of climbing and some ice and snow thrown in the mix, along with one healthy sun break in a clearing along a ridgeline, overlooking the entire bootheel of southern NM down into Mexico. If you're ever considering moving to NM, don't, there's nothing to see or do here. ;-)

eric


Dan


gila pano


@Mike M. Are you running The Rut again this year? Dan Carter is registered, so you guys should connect at some point. I'm still trying to drag him into doing the ZT with us in April.

Edited by Eugeneius on 01/14/2014 21:52:20 MST.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
places to live ... on 01/15/2014 09:53:43 MST Print View

I'm afraid your secret is already out Eugene.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Gila. on 01/15/2014 18:14:07 MST Print View

Eugene- my wife and I very came very close to moving to Silver City, still might one of these days :) nice pics!

I may be running the Rut again, but am leaning towards the Volcanic 50 which is about the same time. You can give him my email and I can certainly try to help in anyway I can

it's been too quiet for me, I tapered last week in anticipation of running our local Fat As 50k Saturday- I bagged that idea as I was still fighting a chest viral/hackshitup thingie, the weather was calling for 25-35 mph winds w/ rain so that sealed the deal

anywho last week was pretty much a bust, feeling better (less hackingshitup) so hope to get a good long run in this weekend

MIke

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
good week on 01/19/2014 16:27:31 MST Print View

had a good week and finally feel like I'm over the flu (or whatever I had)

ran two 5.5 milers early in the week, it's a park near my work so I changed at work and ran- saves me from coming home and running out of daylight- it's laid out so there is ~ 1.4 mile loops, but it's almost perfectly flat. let me run much quicker than I usually do, a little under 9 min miles, which isn't fast, but fast for me :)

got two really good back to back 10 mile runs in the mountains Sat & Sun, ran it one direction on Sat and the opposite today- almost 3000' of elevation gain on the loop (a little more on today's run)

I have to give praise to my microspikes, the trails are almost solid ice and I can run like it's dry ground- best $60 I ever spent

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
crickets? on 01/26/2014 13:41:27 MST Print View

had another pretty good week 0/0/6/6/0/15/10 37 miles w/ close to 9000' of elevation gain

nice run this morning w/ a light snow

 photo P1181124_zps8e832f22.jpg

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: crickets? on 01/27/2014 10:20:49 MST Print View

Crickets indeed.

Not much to speak of here. I think I totaled around 20 this week, including some backpacking miles.

10 weeks to go. I'll start stepping it up big-time as of today. Looking forward to being out there...southwest Utah is my favorite...


What's the headcount on this?
Everything's gone pretty quiet. I'm going to get started on some finisher's tiles and would like a general number.

Edited by xnomanx on 01/27/2014 10:32:17 MST.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: crickets? on 01/27/2014 10:37:24 MST Print View

Nm

Edited by FamilyGuy on 02/02/2014 08:33:30 MST.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
training and head count on 01/27/2014 10:44:14 MST Print View

me (Art) and John V. are still in ... especially if there's a medal at the end :-)

Training
I've moved up to 45 miles a week with a 20+ every weekend
moving very slow but at least I'm moving.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: training and head count on 01/27/2014 11:03:08 MST Print View

"me (Art) and John V. are still in ... especially if there's a medal at the end :-)"

I actually made a Joshua Tree CRHT 2013 tile but never finished glazing/firing them in time for the run. I'd still like to get them out to everyone though; in person at Zion or shipped (if people want to pay ~$5 shipping....).

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Re: training and head count on 01/27/2014 11:18:18 MST Print View

Craig - if you'll be in Zion and we'll be in Zion, a personal handoff complete with congratulatory handshake sounds like the plan.

Jacob D
(JacobD) - F

Locale: North Bay
Re: training on 01/27/2014 11:19:12 MST Print View

Hi guys. Just checking in. I've been training sort of quietly and sporadically, between remodeling and other things. Been getting in 4 runs a week with about 30-40 miles total. I'm doing 3x 7-10 miles, and 1x 12-15 miles. The shorter runs include about 1500 feet of climb, with the descent being the same. Longer runs are closer to 2000 feet of elev gain.

This was feeling pretty good until the instep/arch of my left foot began bothering me just recently. The trails I've been on are very much hard pan with uneven surface and I've been running them in my Pure Grits. I don't think the shoes are giving me enough buffer on these surfaces, although I do love them in the forest and loose sandy stuff. Anyway I'm trying something with a little more support. After chatting with Eugene and reading some reviews I'm giving the Salomon Sense Mantra's a try. Found them for cheap. So far I've just hiked about 20 miles in them but I like the feel. Outsole is noticeable more substantial than the Pure Grits (and has great traction!!) but the shoes still feel really nimble. I had some Cascadia 7's for a while and they just felt too tanky. I took them back to REI (they gave me a rash of shit about it, return policy has changed FYI) after 9 months.

I've gotta see the doc about my foot, actually I have to find a new doctor now that I've moved. I'm not really sure what's up with the foot, but I have a sinking feeling it might be a little stress fracture in there somewhere. Taking it somewhat easy until I get the word.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Re: training on 01/27/2014 11:29:51 MST Print View

Jacob -- the Sense Mantras are good shoes, except for me the heal is too narrow (not internally but externally where the tread meets the trail). I think the Sense are designed for toe runners, and I must admit to landing on my heals a bit on the downhills.

The Pearl Izumi N2 Trail have a fairly wide heal by comparison, are fairly light weight, maybe a couple mm more drop than the Sense though. A couple of people in this thread seem to like them.

Yes the Cascadias are tanks, but one of the few shoes you can run 50+ in and your feet feel fine at the end.

Jacob D
(JacobD) - F

Locale: North Bay
Re: Re: Re: training on 01/27/2014 11:39:27 MST Print View

Hey Art. Thanks for the tip on the Pearl Izumi N2. I'll see how the Salomon's work out, and if not I might give those a try, or at least try them on if/when I come across some. I def heel strike on the downhill :) Hasn't bothered me hiking, but I have not run in them yet.

I got blisters from running in the Cascadias. I think my feet are too narrow and were slopping around in there; it just felt like a mess plus klunky. I definitely prefer a shoe with a narrow, close fitting mid foot.


Regarding the headcount, it's still my plan to be there. I had to pick between Zion or the Bob, so I want to do this.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: Re: Re: training on 01/27/2014 11:58:34 MST Print View

"Regarding the headcount, it's still my plan to be there. I had to pick between Zion or the Bob, so I want to do this."



I want to do the Bob, always have, but with my work schedule the timing is consistently impossible for me.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: training on 01/27/2014 13:17:33 MST Print View

Good to hear everyone is on the move in some way or another.

A bountiful couple weeks on my end. Last weekend I got in a solid 5.5hr. long run with some solid climbing on the route, kept it steady and honest paced, but didn't kill myself- Dan joined me for part of the run, and McCarthy's 'Blood Meridian' on audiobook for the remainder (brutal!). Recovery was almost immediate last week, got home and ate real quick, showered, and was out playing with my kids on the bike that afternoon. I take that as a good sign. Yesterday afternoon I ran a 4-mile trail loop 5x (~20 miles), just plugged along jamming to some Pantera and stopped once at my vehicle to change shoes for one of the laps. Other than the major GI issues I was having, I felt really good and never really waned on my pace. I think my stomach troubles on yesterday's run were unrelated to using Tailwind nutrition, something that I've been using for long runs for the past several weeks, but rather a nasty bottle I failed to clean thoroughly. My race is in 3 weeks, so I'm trying to shake off the few doubts I'm having about my nutrition after yesterday's episode, especially this late in the game. Still haven't quite figured that shit out.

This weekend there is an inexpensive local ultra multi distance event going on (Sugarloaves Ultra), so I may utilize that as my last long training run and give myself a full 2 weeks to recover and lick any wounds before Black Canyon.

In the next coming weeks/months, I'm looking forward to: A) Black Canyon 100k (*ready to see new trail, and also take a week or two "off" from running), B) Ride my mtb again, haven't had any extra time to ride the bike on the trails C) Catch up on a few loose ends unrelated to running D) March 8th, 3rd Annual Sierra Vista Trail Runs race that we're putting on! E) ZION in April!


*@Dave U. Nice numbers on the squat! Take away the "3" in 385 and that's about where I stand. ;-)

Edited by Eugeneius on 01/27/2014 13:18:27 MST.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: training on 01/27/2014 13:25:46 MST Print View

Nm

Edited by FamilyGuy on 02/02/2014 08:32:59 MST.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
head count (and campground options) on 01/27/2014 18:14:37 MST Print View

I'm coming for sure and looks like a buddy of mine (and his wife) are coming- they plan on staying a little longer and seeing some of the sites close by.

What are your guy's thoughts on campgrounds?- we can camp at the main campground in Zion or as Dave C mentioned in the other thread at the East entrance (private campground). His thought was that it made it more attractive (more likely?) to finish the entire distance if we camped at the east entrance vs bailing at the 33-ish mile and getting a shuttle to the campground. I have no idea what the campgrounds look like or how they compare.

Thoughts?

Mike

PS Coolio on the tiles Craig!

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: crickets? on 01/27/2014 18:30:15 MST Print View

"What's the headcount on this?"

Unfortunately, doubtful I can make it. Wasn't going to do the run anyway, but thought it would be fun to hang around the campfire. Money is, unfortunately, getting a tad tight.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Campground ... on 01/27/2014 20:22:58 MST Print View

well of course the campground at the end makes the best sense "if" it is a decent place. can we research it a bit ?

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Campground ... on 01/27/2014 20:45:22 MST Print View

I've posted about this many times....

There is a private campground near the east entrance.
The Pros (as I see them):
It is literally one mile from where the trail ends. I have clocked the distance in my car. I believe they also have showers there. It's not nearly as nice as being down in the canyon in my opinion, but it's likely quieter. If we stayed there, no shuttles at the end would be necessary. Just add an extra mile of road and you're at camp. Nobody would have to wait around at the end- people could just trickle in.
The Cons:
If anyone bailed at the Grotto and it was late, I'm not sure how you could get back to camp. The Grotto is down in the valley and there is no sort of public transportation to get back up to the east rim. Someone would have to leave a bailout car down in the valley. How people would contact each other if bailing out or needing a ride down there is beyond me.

Camping in the valley:
Pros: In my opinion, its better camping; on the Virgin River. If people bailed at the Grotto, they could either walk about three miles from there (all slightly downhill road) to camp or possibly catch a shuttle if they're running. There's plenty of traffic back to camp.
Cons:
You'd be finishing pretty far from where we camp, basically needing shuttle at the beginning and at the end. There is no public transportation to get from the east rim back into the valley and you can't walk it (no peds in tunnel, the only way back down)...We'd have to leave cars/have people wait at the east rim for everyone to come in. There's parking and picnic tables there, not a bad place to wait. But if someone bailed down in the Grotto, I don't know how the people waiting for them at the end would get word of it....

You really need to look at a park and road map to understand this.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: Re: crickets? on 01/27/2014 21:37:02 MST Print View

I was hoping to see you out there Doug.
Another time and place then.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Re: Re: crickets? on 01/27/2014 21:56:54 MST Print View

Doug,

Sell more gear :)

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Re: Campground ... on 01/27/2014 22:28:43 MST Print View

it would be nice to stay inside the park unless logistics weigh really heavy the other way. his is especially true if some come who are not doing the run.

I think to really tackle this we need a handle on :

1. how many seriously plan to run this
2. how many seriously plan to finish
3. how many would seriously like to do only 37 miles to the Grotto
4. how many vehicles will be available

then try to come up with a logistic scenario for each camp location and weigh them ... unless someone would love to spend the day as a logistics slave ...

another point ... would the drive to the start be significantly shorter from the camp inside the park ?

additional info :
so it seems we will just miss being able to drive private vehicles to the Grotto to pick up those who may stop there (spring 2014 schedule not out yet). these runners will have to use the bus to get to either the road junction for pickup or the Watchman campground depending on where we decide to stay. this bus seems to run at least till 8:00pm which should be fine for everyone who is not crawling on the trail.

does anyone know how much time it takes to drive from the East end (potential camp) to the road junction inside the park on the scenic road. time is more relevant here than miles.

Edited by asandh on 01/27/2014 23:48:47 MST.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
shuttle on 01/28/2014 07:01:37 MST Print View

I believe we can line up a shuttle (price seemed reasonable when I checked last year) to transport us from Watchman (the main campsite within the park) to transport us to the West entrance in the morning

Watchman also has group sites available that might be an option??

http://www.nps.gov/zion/planyourvisit/upload/2013-Regs_WatchmanCG-new-map.pdf

I'll check on the other site as far as cost, groups, etc

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Re: Re: Re: Campground ... on 01/28/2014 10:12:42 MST Print View

1. how many seriously plan to run this
2. how many seriously plan to finish
3. how many would seriously like to do only 37 miles to the Grotto
4. how many vehicles will be available


I am planning to run the full Zion traverse, so with that in mind I will do my damnedest to not pull the cord at the Grotto- that should answer: 1,2, and 3. I'm still uncertain about how I'm arriving. Dan C. still seems like a maybe and Eric may be in as well. If they both go I will carpool with them.

I'll be a Zion newbie, so I am leaning on you all for camp logistics.

Mike Schasch
(MSchasch) - F
Camping on 01/28/2014 17:01:16 MST Print View

My thoughts on the camping situation:

Camping on the East side is likely to be less noisy, cooler (it can get damn hot in April), and less buggy. Campgrounds in the main canyon have a tendency to have tons of ants. I personally hate camping in the main grounds cause the hosts can be real strict and weird about tent placement and number of people at your camp. East side camp has some pretty good pizza across the street. In town you've got a lot more eating options.

Drive time from East Entrance to scenic drive range from 25-40 minutes depending on how many tourists are on the road and if they are stopping the tunnel for XL size vehicles (they usually do this till around 6-7pm).

I've never had too much trouble hitchhiking down to the main canyon while it was still light out.

Jacob D
(JacobD) - F

Locale: North Bay
Shuttles on 01/29/2014 10:25:57 MST Print View

I was going to reply regarding logistics, then I realized I didn't know what the hell I was talking about.


Hey Craig (or anyone), where do the shuttles in the park run from and to?

Also, and this may be irrelevant for a number of reasons, but the use of 2-way radios could potentially ease some of the shuttling concerns/coordination... if they'll work in the terrain. I dunno. Thoughts?


By the way, there is a nice high-res map here:
http://www.nps.gov/common/commonspot/customcf/apps/maps/showmap.cfm?alphacode=zion&parkname=Zion

Edited by JacobD on 01/29/2014 10:29:06 MST.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Shuttles on 01/29/2014 10:57:55 MST Print View

Jacob - there are two shuttle issues.

1. the Free park shuttle follows the yellow line in the map you provided. on that map we will hit the road during our run where it says The Grotto. this is where those only doing 37 miles will stop. Those going to the end will follow the road a mile or so then climb up the other side of the deep canyon. I am pretty sure cars will not be allowed here on our weekend and it will be bus only.

2. the shuttle Mike is speaking of will cost money and is a special order private shuttle to take us to the start.

I don't know if radios will work where we need them most as its a deep canyon.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Re: Re: Shuttles on 01/29/2014 11:03:00 MST Print View

Homing pigeons?

Maybe we can move logistic discussion back to the other thread?

Edited by Eugeneius on 01/29/2014 11:05:50 MST.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Moving Logistics Discussion on 01/29/2014 12:02:23 MST Print View

Good Idea Eugene.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Logistics and other non training discussion moved here :

Third Annual BPL Adventure Run main thread

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Edited by asandh on 01/29/2014 12:50:56 MST.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
The Training Continues on 02/02/2014 10:03:29 MST Print View

24 miler in the local mountains Saturday with a couple friends.
starting to finally feel like I may get in shape.
ran with temps mostly in the hi 30's to low 40's and 4 miles of light snow flurries.
that's considered major winter conditions down here.

got picked in the Wasatch lottery yesterday, so my summer training has now been defined for me.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
The Training Continues on 02/02/2014 12:28:13 MST Print View

I'm now pretty certain that I'm going to approach Zion in a similar fashion to Joshua Tree. It's obvious that I'm not willing to commit to the running training necessary to run the course or go for some sort of "fast" time, so my plans are to walk the entire thing, bring a nice lunch/dinner, enjoy my day, and roll in late. Hopefully I can act as a "sweeper" and take up the rear for stragglers or anyone having issues.

Surfing and spearing and backpacking take priority for my free time and I'm happy with that. I'm doing a lot of crossfit type stuff as well as mixing in some short runs here and there. I'll do a few long days between now and then to get some good hours on my feet.

I just can't excite myself to do all the maintenance miles necessary throughout the week to run distances like this anymore. Maybe things will change in the future, but for now I'm pretty content with the ultrapedestrian approach.

So look for me to DFL with a smile on my face on April 5th!

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: The Training Continues on 02/02/2014 12:33:20 MST Print View

Craig - DFL is fine, we probably do need a sweeper on this.

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Weird training this year on 02/02/2014 12:46:43 MST Print View

I miss living in GA. I could pretty much hike/run year round with a boatload of elevation change within a couple hours of my house. Now that I live in PA it gets tough to get good trail to run AND elevation gain. I have done a couple of 40 milers this winter but nowhere near the number that I did prior to R2R2R. BUT, what I have done is establish a pretty intense workout routine on a treadmill. I know from previous years that this is very effective but this will be the most that I have relied on the gym to get in shape for my spring events. I am hoping to get a couple more 40 mile days in before Zion, if not then I will be sweeping with Craig, which doesn't sound like a bad plan at all.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Re: The Training Continues on 02/02/2014 14:11:02 MST Print View

Congrats on the Wasatch 100 lottery win Art! What a brutal course you have before you.

@Craig, looking forward to meeting up in whatever capacity. I think the running is the excuse we're all using to put a "serious" note to an otherwise lighthearted occasion of beer consumption, laughter, and comradery. Passing through Zion is the icing on the cake so to speak and a goal worth working towards in all of this.

Yesterday marked my last training run before Black Canyon in two weeks. I entered a low key local trail race and utilized it as a my final long run. Timing was perfect and I went into it with no expectations and PMA. Ended up placing 1st in the 29 mile distance option with a time of 5:00:12 on really sandy course. There was little elevation gain to speak of, just some rollers, but plenty of sand to contend with and wreak havoc on my feet and ankles. Great training for Zion right?placed

Edited by Eugeneius on 02/02/2014 14:12:25 MST.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
training on 02/02/2014 16:22:22 MST Print View

Art- congrats on the draw, I've read a lot on Wasatch- a real toughy to be sure!

Craig- if it's anything like JT, I think you have it right- you were the only one smiling at the end :)

Greg- would you mind sharing a few treadmill secrets- we're getting another brutal front moving through (well below zero stuff :( ), so it will be treadmill for me all of this week for sure

Eugene- congrats! sounds like your training is coming along very nicely

my week was fair, no long run on Saturday- got three 6 mile runs in this week and about 8 miles of x-country skiing in this afternoon with my wfe

hope to get in a 20 miler next weekend, we'll see what the weather does

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Latest treadmill on 02/02/2014 18:18:18 MST Print View

Here is what my latest routines have been.

incline
1) Ten minute warmup. Start at 3.5mph and 0deg incline and increase .1mph and 1 deg every minute. At ten minutes I am at 4.5mph and 10 degree incline. The rest of the workout is at 4.5 mph.
2) I was doing a series of ramps. Increase 1 deg every minute from 10 deg to 15 degrees and back down to 10 degree for a five to minutes recovery.
3) this has become fairly straight-forward so I am starting to hold the 15 degree for a full five minutes. This has been killer with my heart rate hitting over 180. So far I have only been able to go five minutes once and have to reduce the duration down to 2-3 minutes at 15 degrees.

Speed
Starting at 4.5mph and level (1deg) increase .1 mph every minute up to 5.6 mph walking. Reduce speed back down to 4.5.

I may also run with a variety of inclines as well. Normally I will do a total of three total ramps and/or speed workouts. I can tell you that this has done wonders for my uphill hiking speed.

I also have been lifting on the alternate days. I have made sure to include hips in my upper body routines. It has eliminated some earlier knee pain that I had been having.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: The Training Continues on 02/02/2014 18:53:24 MST Print View

Nice Eugene, congrats on the win.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Re: The Training Continues on 02/02/2014 19:55:48 MST Print View

Eugene - nice gold medal. good luck at your first 100K at Black Canyon. looks like a fast downhill course. John V. and I won't be able to make it but we'll be pulling for you.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
week from hell on 02/09/2014 19:53:40 MST Print View

we've had a rough week, temps were below zero everyday this week- lowest was -29 on Wed morning! needless to say no outdoor running- got 23 miles in on the treadmill (longest was 10 miles)

did get out this afternoon (a balmy 9 degrees) snowshoe "running" got 10.5 miles, but took 3.5 hours!

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: week from hell on 02/10/2014 07:33:08 MST Print View

Mike - I'd say 10.5 in 3.5 hrs on snowshoes is not too bad, and a great workout.
can't even comprehend -29 as we feel cold here when its below +60.

I got a nice 25 miler in Sunday but slow as molasses. Can do the distance but feel like I've ratcheted down a notch in speed, maybe once I get in shape ...
Been doing the long runs with a woman named Jeri who is much faster than us, but she wants to run with us to learn how to run slow because she's training for a 200 mile race in September.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
200 mile race on 02/10/2014 18:10:22 MST Print View

Holy crap Batman!!!!!!! That's impressive (as is any race 50 miles +)

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
ho hum week on 02/16/2014 15:24:23 MST Print View

week was pretty ho hum, got two snowshoe runs early in the week about 5 miles each- the work ratio is definitely much higher! Got a 10 mile run in yesterday- plenty of snow on the ridges, so work ratio still higher than good conditions, got 5 miles in on the treadmill today (wind was gusting to 40 mph)- 25 miles, probably closer to 30-35 as far as output goes though

also for those not following the other thread closely, we have reservations made for Watchman campground so we're good to go there :)

Mike

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: ho hum week on 02/16/2014 19:21:02 MST Print View

Mike with the crazy conditions maybe focus on time rather than miles.
a mile in the snow is definitely worth more than a regular mile.

Wonder how Eugene did yesterday, first 100K.

Mike Schasch
(MSchasch) - F
moab on 02/18/2014 14:34:36 MST Print View

Ouch, just ran the moab 55k this weekend. It was my first trail race and I think I've learned some valuable lessons. The last two weeks of training were "interrupted" by big Grand Canyon excursions. Probably not ideal. Anyway, I covered the first 18 miles in 3 hours (too fast), and the last 15.5 took me 4 hours! Had blisters goin, knee and hip pain. Finally took some IBU at the last aid station and I was able to run again. I guess I'm concerned about taking IBU during a race since I've heard it damages your intestine among other things. What do you guys do for pain?

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: moab on 02/18/2014 14:44:01 MST Print View

Mike - Congratulations
but believe it or not, 55K is not that long of a race.
you really shouldn't need IBU for a 55K.
the best thing for pain is try and not get it in the first place.
the best things to do are :

1. unless you are in a race to win it ... start slow for the first 2-3 miles, but I guess you figured that out. speed, especially when not warmed up causes more injury than distance.

2. train properly for the distance. and this also means tapering properly for the distance and your personal level of conditioning, but I guess you already figured that out too.

3. wearing the right shoes is also a big deal and affects more than just feet.

see how smart you are already, after only one race !

p.s.
there will always be some level of pain in an ultra, after all, it IS an ultra.
the key to how good shape you are in is not so much the pain, but how fast you feel normal again afterwards.

Edited by asandh on 02/18/2014 15:02:04 MST.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Re: moab on 02/18/2014 21:13:18 MST Print View

Yeah Mike! Good on ya dude.

Art pretty much nailed it on nipping pain in the butt before you even start, all that comes from the preparation and decisions we make before we even toe the line. This sounds like a huge cliche among endurance sport participants, but fully embracing pain and managing it the best we can is part of the "game" and allure to the ultra distance stuff, at least for me. NSAIDs can help in a pinch, but they also mask important signals your body may be sending to the brain, such as those signals that prevent you from experiencing undue injury. If you need IBU to get you through a run, you may want to pull back some until you can work through those issues without resorting to pills.

*If you're going to use nsaids, try sodium naproxen, which seems to be easier on the stomach.

Mike Schasch
(MSchasch) - F
Thanks on 02/19/2014 10:20:45 MST Print View

Thanks for the info guys. I was surprised to talk to folks to down pain killers before the race even starts. I didn't think a 55k would be that hard so I didn't train nearly as much as I probably should have.

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
Re: Thanks on 02/19/2014 10:33:33 MST Print View

>"Thanks for the info guys. I was surprised to talk to folks to down pain killers before the race even starts."

I'm married to one and hang out with a bunch of other Internists. There was a well-done, peer-reivewed article on that point 1-2 years ago. Many docs had assumed that reducing inflammation before it even started was better than waiting for the pain to start, so they advised NSAIDs before a big run/event when you knew you'd be hurting later. But it was only ever a reasonable assumption. When a controlled study was done, the outcomes were better if you waited for something to start to hurt and THEN take NSAIDs.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
nsaids on 02/19/2014 18:01:44 MST Print View

I think that study (maybe a different one??) also pointed to some potential risk of prophylactic use of nsaids

I know it's no that long by Art's standards :), but 55k is plenty long by mine- congrats!

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Ok week but big plans on 02/19/2014 21:08:33 MST Print View

I got two snowshoe trips in. I wish I could do mIkes mileage. 7 miles in 4 unstop hours. Incredible workout. Two days later shorter trip. Cut short when I hit crotch deep snow even with snowshoes. I'm still singing soprano.

But big plans Saturday. I will be in the Smokies and have a 48.3 mile hike/run/crawl/roll planned. Have a twin 27 miler as a backup plan. This will be the first 40+ in several weeks. It will be a great test of my gym training. Given the high 6600' elevation, by east coast standards, it will be a great workout. Goals are:
1) no injuries.
2) complete the 48
3) time on feet vs pace.

I will update the day.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Ok week but big plans on 02/20/2014 09:38:40 MST Print View

Greg - I'm hoping you don't mean 48 miles on snowshoes, that would make my workouts look pathetic.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Black Canyon 100k on 02/20/2014 11:34:14 MST Print View

Fellas, my run at the Black Canyon 100k went damn well this past Saturday, in that I finished and enjoyed the journey. It's finally sunk in over the last day or so. I finished back down in north Phx in 15:21 in the dark. My good friend Dan Carter paced me in the last 25 miles and I can't thank him enough.

We cruised over to Phx on Friday and checked in at the Pearl Izumi factory store, grabbed a solid dinner with some relatives that evening and scored a deal on a cheap roadside hotel on the eve of the race up near Prescott. Spending my Valentines evening sharing a bed with my running mate in a cheap hotel was exactly what I had in mind. After a typical prerace routine of 5hrs of subpar sleep, we were packing up for the race start in Mayer, AZ ready for what was expected to be a very warm day. It was 36F at the start just before sunrise, so I checked in and waited in the car until the last minute to duck out to the line. RD/ultra badass Jamil Coury signaled the horn for the start and we were off at 7am. The course started with a lap around a track, followed by a short 1 mile escorted run through the small town to the trailhead at the edge of town. From there it was 61 miles of blissful singletrack winding it's way gracefully south back down into Anthem, AZ, easily the best I've had the privilege of running.

I dropped my arm sleeves within 15mins of running as the sun rose on the horizon and so did the temps. Shorts and a singlet were all I wore for the day. I cruised the first 19 miles and surprised Dan with my pace, just a moderately steady pace but making good time. He met me at each aid station as there was a forest service road that paralleled most of the course for easy crew and aid access. By the 50k aid station the temps were near their peak, topping out around 89F in the canyon, possibly warmer depending on the aspect of the trail. People were struggling with the heat. I averaged about ~60oz of fluid (x2-24oz. Handheld bottles and nips from my hydration bladder) between each aid station, the longest stretch was an 8.7 mile stretch at the warmest part of the day. Fortunately I urinated about 6 times out on the trail and each time was clear, so I was doing well on hydration and fueling ( used Tailwind Nutrition multi hour mix in one bottle, 1-2 gels an hour, and an occasional hammer nutrition bar or pro bar as needed to satiate my stomach).

I finally met up with Dan at mile 37 to finish out with me on pacing duties. It was in the high 80's when he joined me and many had dropped out at the Black Canyon City aid station due to heat and typical ailments that plague a long run. I swapped out of my shoes (Nike Zoom Wildhorse) and into an old pair of Pearl Izumi Trail N1s- feet felt sorta shitty, but I wanted to feel a different kind of shitty. Immediately after leaving the aid we crossed the Agua Fria river and started a long climb back above the Canyon. Cramping started to kick my ass in the quads so I had to throttle back on effort to keep them at bay. Dan led me out and we settled into a nice quiet running pace and pretty much enjoyed the approaching evening among the saguaros and palo verde of the Sonoran desert. I forgot how beautiful the desert is in this part of the country.

We hit mile 50 in exactly 12hrs30min and moved through the station quickly. I was still ahead of the AS cutoffs by nearly 2 hrs, but knew my pace would drop as night fell and I fatigued. The station captain was confused for some reason and told us we had less than 3 hrs to do the final 13 miles. Sounds like plenty of time right? Notso much. We still had one big climb left out of the canyon and I was moving fairly slow coming in to this AS, running, but slowly through the dark by headlamp. I felt panic sink in and I kicked up the pace significantly and Dan followed behind me. We didn't talk at all for the next hour or so, just focused on management of effort and decisions made on the trail. In the final miles we passed about 6 runners and ran it in casually and enjoyably as soon as we knew we had a buffer on the finish cutoff. I really enjoyed the final 3.7 miles after leaving the last aid station and took the time to slow down and listen to coyotes yipping and howling at the full moon. Crossed around 10:22 PM with a big ass grin and a tear in my eye. Jamil handed me my finishers buckle and quietly shook my hand and I thanked him for putting together such a hard course. Connected with some fellow runners post race and shared some war stories.

I learned a lot on this one. Heat will cut you off at the knees and end your day if you're not mindful and deliberate in every decision you make. Combine hard effort and exposure for extended hours and you'll succumb to heat fast, many did and I'm glad I made it through without issue. Fueling- haven't quite nailed it and I still feel like I'm just throwing things down the hatch and hoping for the best. This go around was mostly successful on the fueling front despite my lack of confidence in this area. Cramping- I still get them, almost always located in my quads, consistently popping up around mile 25-30 in my longer runs. They come and go and I'm learning to manage them, but their presence easily added and hour or so to my overall time. Pretty sure it's a muscular imbalance somewhere and I'm determined to sort that out this year. Pace- smooth and efficient running is the key. Focusing early on my breathing and effort allowed me to move through the first half in great time with plenty in the tank for the second half. Pain- 100K feels a hell of a lot harder than 50 miles. Everything compounds the longer you're out there and pain seems to magnify. You definitely have to settle in and embrace what comes.

My friends and family have asked what's next? What they really mean to say is, " are you going to run a 100miler?" I'm not sure yet, too soon to tell, but I'm already looking at the Stagecoach 100 in Sept near flagstaff and daydreaming of the possibilities.Black canyon

Edited by Eugeneius on 02/20/2014 11:44:48 MST.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Black Canyon 100k on 02/20/2014 11:47:35 MST Print View

Eugene - Congratulations on a Great 100K run.
thanks for a great write-up.

and to answer that question you posed ... of course you're going to run a 100m.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Black Canyon 100k on 02/20/2014 18:49:38 MST Print View

Greg- sounds like your training is going just fine, enjoy the Smokies

Eugene- a big congrats on your 100k! That's quite an accomplishment; Zion should be a nice stroll in the park for you :)

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
A humbling day on 02/23/2014 20:02:39 MST Print View

First.... Eugene, sounds like a great experience. Uber cool picture, shows grit.

I am in ATL for work so I left early to pick up a couple of AT sections that I had missed during earlier hikes. The key one was in Great Smoky Mountain National Park. I had a 24 mile section between Newfound Gap and Spence Field. I had reservation at the next shelter that would have allowed a much easier back to back 27 but I wanted to try the full 48-49 mile day. My flight was delay and the result was that I didn't arrive until midnight at the trailhead. Luckily I rented an SUV and that allowed me to crash in the back.

The alarm went off at 5am and I was on the trail 15 minutes later. Also immediately after hitting the trail I discovered that I would be dealing with quite a bit of ice on both side of Clingmans dome which is at 6600'. After a less than graceful face plant, I stopped and put on my micro spikes which I had avoided due to some foot issues on my PCT caused by the spikes. But it really made life much easier though my pace was less than my normal speed.

I hit the halfway point at 2:30 about an hour behind. I was whooped but other than an earlier ankle problem I was still healthy so I headed back. It was really cool to meet the hikers that I had passed earlier in the day. They were amazed that I was doing twice the distance that they were covering in three days. The first half of the return was unexpectedly tough and I couldn't understand why. (I would later learn that the last 6 miles of my outbound route which were also the first six miles of the return had a total of 5000' of elevation gain in the 12.6 miles.). It was pitched dark halfway through the return. The darkness, combined with ice and fatigue really slowed me down and it took until midnight night to get back to the trailhead.

My goal was to do the distance without injury. This I accomplished. But I was on the trail for 18:40 which ties a record. The mileage was just under 49 miles (3rd highest) with a total elevation gain of over 14,000' (2nd highest.) So in spite of a very thorough butt kicking I survived. Even hiked another 8 miles today for recover which feel great. Yesterday was definitely a type two fun day though the sunrise, sunset and a crystal clear night sky brought it a bit into the type one catagory.

Just as the 42 mile training hikes were meant to simulate the R2R2R, this hike should be at least on par with Zion. I will continue to get stronger prior to our run but this was a great test, even if brought me a bit closer to my breaking point than I have been in years, definitely outside my comfort zone.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: A humbling day on 02/24/2014 07:39:48 MST Print View

Greg - some serious training.
sounds like you'll definitely be at Zion.

Jacob D
(JacobD) - F

Locale: North Bay
Re: Black Canyon 100k on 02/24/2014 11:25:59 MST Print View

Damn Eugene, way to handle it. I think I would have died in the heat, much less covering the distance. I laughed at your fueling comment, but you must be doing something right since you completed the thing while passing peeps near the end. Hats off to you.


Sounds like my training falls in the "I'll mostly be under prepared" category. Oh well. It is what it is. I've been hitting shorter runs (~15 miles ish) with lots of up and down, but nothing much longer. Last week I was able to get out for about 30 miles of hike/snowshoe involving a couple of serious climbs and descents, so just trying to build on where I'm at and see where that will get me.

I guess now I need to pop over to the other thread and see where logistics are at. I'm still totally confused...

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Re: Black Canyon 100k on 02/24/2014 11:40:39 MST Print View

Jacob - you should do fine come Zion Day.

logistics are starting to come together (other thread).

if you haven't taken a good look at Skurka's info and maps it would be a good time to start.

Adan Lopez
(Lopez) - F

Locale: San Gabriel Valley
Zion Training on 02/24/2014 12:22:04 MST Print View

Eugene, super impressed by this one man. Youre killing it lately and this one must have felt like a huge step up for you. Very inspiring stuff.

Greg, as always, youre an animal. Awesome training youre doing.

As for me, training has not been a priority. I ramped up pretty good and hit the new year with a perfect base for increasing mileage in January up to R2R2R levels again. Then, things with my daughter and with my home took over for a while and I'm just now emerging and starting to think about the mountains again.

Craig and I talked this week, at this point we are planning to go out there and join you guys either way. So I'm looking forward to that big time. I'm not setting any goals for myself other than showing up and doing a long hike. It will be good to see everyone again.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Re: A humbling day on 02/24/2014 19:14:42 MST Print View

Greg- impressive distance, impressive elevation- all under less than ideal conditions- you'll be good to go :)

I had another ho hum week (that's two in a row)- we're entering the Third Ice Age in Montana I'm afraid. Got three snowshoe "runs" in of ~ 6 miles each, the last one was really brutal as I was breaking the entire route (deep powder), got two treadmill sessions of 5 miles each. We just got a little over a foot of new snow and temps are in the single digits, sooooo... looks like I'll be on my third ho hum week :(

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Re: Re: A humbling day on 02/25/2014 07:28:09 MST Print View

Adan - we can always use another beer guard, glad to hear you'll be there.

I did 24 on Sunday, that's the 6th straight weekend with a long run of at least 22.
But I'm still really slow. Jeri, the woman who's training for the 200 miler, has started doing 1/4 mile out and backs during our long runs to while away the time while I'm plodding along. She'll run ahead then run back, so she gets in a couple more miles by the end of our long run.

for those who are interested, here is that 200 miler.
much of the course is on the Tahoe Rim Trail.

Tahoe 200


-----

Edited by asandh on 02/25/2014 07:36:49 MST.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Zion on 02/28/2014 08:44:50 MST Print View

Eugene, you're killing it out there. Seems like it's been a good season for you.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
weak sauce week on 03/02/2014 17:51:37 MST Print View

another weak week, hampered by below 0 temps and 2'+ of snow, it's been treadmill all week- 5.5/5.5 miles Tues/Wed, 11 miles Sat and 4.5 today

we're supposed to be above freezing tomorrow (the weather man has been wrong on every warming trend the last month), so I might be able to get the snowshoes or skis out this week

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: weak sauce week on 03/02/2014 22:08:45 MST Print View

Mike - you need to relocate to the southwest.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
southwest on 03/03/2014 07:21:31 MST Print View

^ agreed!

Jacob D
(JacobD) - F

Locale: North Bay
Re: southwest on 03/04/2014 10:39:46 MST Print View

^ Yeah I'm a little nervous about the year when Mike invites us his way to do the "Spring Run" in some frigid conditions. Southwest relocation sounds like a good plan Mike :)



Well, after reviewing some pack suggestions from Art and Mike I decided to ignore them both and go my own way. I ended up picking up one of the new UD Peter Bakwin vests since I was somewhat familiar with the fit already and time is getting short. Took it out for an 8 mile jaunt over some local hills yesterday, loaded up with 2.5 liters of water, camera, and some other gear to add some weight. The fit felt pretty good, I like the V2 design with the added adjustment. I just need to get it dialed in now. The legs felt that additional weight tho - especially on the climbs which I had to mostly revert to hiking up.

I'm training on ground that's got an overall incline as steep or steeper than Zion, but I just don't have time to get the distances in that I really want/need to. Hoping it will be enough to enable me to run alongside the back of the pack runners...

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
pack on 03/04/2014 17:59:18 MST Print View

Jacob- look forward to seeing the pack. Osprey has come out w/ a new series (Rev) that looks pretty promising- not that I don't already have enough packs mind you :)

Mike

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
better week on 03/09/2014 14:54:11 MDT Print View

I ran Tues and Wed on pavement! It's a 1.3 mile path around a park that they plow- got 4 laps in each day. I don't like running on pavement, but the alternative was the treadmill. Saturday went out to the mountains w/ snowshoes on my back and microspikes in my pack. Got to use both on what turned out to be a two hour, 6 mile grind. Today I wanted (needed) to get some miles in, so we decided to run on some gravel roads (that are plowed!)- ended up w/ just shy of 19 miles and over 3000' of elevation gain. Longest run in a month or two (maybe more???). There was one stretch (to connect two roads) that required some major post holing for ~ 3/4 mile- that was tough.

Anywho a much better week than the previous several.

Mike

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: better week on 03/09/2014 18:31:36 MDT Print View

well, just bring your snowshoes to Zion Mike, so you can be comfortable on the trail ...

I ordered a pair of N2's today, going to give them a workout for a while.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
snowshoes on 03/10/2014 07:26:08 MDT Print View

hopefully I won't need them :) as it gets a little closer I plan on talking to the Park Service to get an idea on the conditions of the trail- I know they can sometimes get some lingering snow/ice into April

good chance I'll pack my microspikes

let me know what you think of the N2's- they're working well for me

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
"Progress" on 03/10/2014 08:43:33 MDT Print View

Well, I'm surfing and diving better than ever....but running: not so much. Logging the miles just isn't speaking to me these days.

Nothing but hill repeats and faster tempo 5Ks or less as part of general workouts/conditioning. All of my "training" has been crossfit sort of routines or time spent spent in the water.

I'm now questioning whether or not I even want to speed hike the traverse.

But I'll be there either way. I'm actually now leaning towards skipping the ultra and doing a canyon or two while I'm out there instead. I can also help with logistics on the morning of the run.

Still looking forward to getting out there either way.

Do we have a headcount on this? Many people seem to have gone silent....

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: "Progress" on 03/10/2014 09:14:55 MDT Print View

Myself and John V. are still in.
still going for the full traverse.

Zion is beautiful no matter how you choose to experience it.

So ... we need to find a new designated sweeper ?

Edited by asandh on 03/10/2014 09:16:10 MDT.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Re: "Progress" on 03/10/2014 17:59:46 MDT Print View

No official head count, but looks like the "for sures" are: you and Adan, Craig and John, Eugene (maybe a buddy?), Jacob (maybe a buddy?)- I'll be coming from MT, as well as Grant (and his wife).

Feel free to pipe in if you're not mentioned, the reservation is for up to 30 I believe- we so have plenty of room :)

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Me, me on 03/10/2014 20:02:07 MDT Print View

I have the flight booked. May be hanging in the rear with Craig, I am doing a pretty aggressive trip in the days after Zion so I can't give it 100%. Either way, stoked about the trip.

Just saw Craig's comment above, guess I will be alone in the rear.

Edited by gg-man on 03/10/2014 20:03:39 MDT.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Me, me on 03/10/2014 20:14:01 MDT Print View

sorry Greg- I knew you were coming

I'm sure there will be very good company in the rear- I'm pretty sure that's where I'll be hanging!

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Me, me on 03/10/2014 20:26:16 MDT Print View

Sorry again for backing out of the run guys, just being up front as soon as I can. Surfing won again. I pulled it off in Joshua Tree but I'm more skeptical going into Zion without more time on my feet in training.

I'm thinking I'll likely bring rope and gear and do a short canyon or two while you guys are out.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Me, me on 03/11/2014 07:21:55 MDT Print View

that'll work- the run is secondary imo, the camaraderie number one :)

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Re: Me, me on 03/11/2014 07:32:18 MDT Print View

looks like with as few as 7-8 at the starting line I'll have a good shot at my first ever top 10 finish.

Edited by asandh on 03/11/2014 09:44:14 MDT.

Jacob D
(JacobD) - F

Locale: North Bay
Mee too on 03/11/2014 12:31:17 MDT Print View

I'll be there. Flying solo but riding up with Art and John from Vegas (thanks again guys!!). I'm really pumped and ready to roll! Sounds like I'll have some company at the back.

I just hiked with David Wage and he is not going to make it (he has no computer at the moment so I'm responding for him).


Craig, sorry to hear you're not going to do the traverse. Surfing and diving does sound like a lot of fun though, can't say I could blame you. Sounds like you're still making the trip though, and Adan too?

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Re: Re: Me, me on 03/11/2014 18:27:56 MDT Print View

"that'll work- the run is secondary imo, the camaraderie number one :)"

Was about to say this myself. Really looking forward to meeting up with everyone again.

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
Re: Re: Re: Me, me on 03/11/2014 22:39:43 MDT Print View

Yeah, wish I could swing it and see you all again. But having been in Zion with my wife for V-day and there again tomorrow with my daughter, it would be pushing it to return solo in 2 weeks.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Zion Snow on 03/12/2014 07:23:21 MDT Print View

David - sorry you won't be joining us.
could possibly try and get a read on the high country snow when you are there.
thanks.

Adan Lopez
(Lopez) - F

Locale: San Gabriel Valley
Zion still a go on 03/12/2014 10:01:05 MDT Print View

Jacob,
Im still a go for Zion. Excited to see everyone. Excited to see the place again. May not be in shape to partake in the run with you guys, but I'm gonna be the best damn drunk and hairy cheerleader ever.

Adan Lopez
(Lopez) - F

Locale: San Gabriel Valley
zion on 03/12/2014 10:05:01 MDT Print View

excited to be planning some canyon explorations with Craig too. Is everyone planning on arriving the day prior and leaving the morning after again? I would like to be in camp when most of you will be hanging out.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: zion on 03/12/2014 11:49:24 MDT Print View

Adan - myself, John V. and Jacob will be arriving late Thursday night (10pm ?).
we need to leave 9:00am Sunday to get Jacob back to the airport.

spend Friday enjoying the park with friends and finalizing logistics.

what about everyone else ?

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
zion on 03/12/2014 18:31:00 MDT Print View

I'll be there Thursday late afternoon (guess)- will be leaving probably Sun evening (possibly early Mon morn)

we should have all Friday to "play"- I suggest we take in Angels Landing sometime Friday

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Travel plans on 03/12/2014 19:19:56 MDT Print View

My flight gets into Vegas at 10am Friday. I will be driving to Zion direct.

David Thomas
(DavidinKenai) - MLife

Locale: North Woods. Far North.
Re: Zion Snow on 03/19/2014 01:18:04 MDT Print View

>"could possibly try and get a read on the high country snow when you are there.
thanks."

Art, I posted on the other (logistics?) thread when I got back. Going up to Angel's Landing, there was no snow, no ice, no sign of snow or ice anywhere up to the top (5700 elevation) nor could I see any in the backcountry.

Virgin River flow was pretty low in Zion Narrows 55-60 cfs and cold, maybe 45F. Air temps were low 60s most days, clear nights left the mornings at 36F. Cloud cover before our hike left it 48 at Zion Lodge, about 46F on top but blowing 20, gusting 30 on top.mg src="/backpackinglight/user_uploads/1395213416_101177.jpg" alt="sign" width="550" height="736">on topZion Narrows

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Re: Zion Snow on 03/19/2014 07:22:13 MDT Print View

David - thanks for weather update.

nice photos.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
injured reserve list on 03/22/2014 11:40:01 MDT Print View

Dave- nice pics! :)

I spent the last week in GA at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center (FLETC)- got a few 5-6 mile runs in, Wed. I found a route that was about 8 miles- about half way into this route I felt a little slight burn in my achilles area, pulled back the pace, still burned so I walked- the pain shifted (and intensified) into my heel. It was bad enough that I had to limp back to the dorm. The next morning it was bad enough that I couldn't put any weight on it at all- this was the day I flew out and was forced to limp around three different airports. Yesterday went into the doc and the took an x-ray, nothing showed up, but they said a stress fracture in the foot rarely does until a couple of weeks later after the bone starts to stitch itself.

So...... I'm resting, icing and taking NSAIDs- hopefully I see some improvement soon. The upside is I'm getting to watch every NCAA game :)

Mike

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Re: injured reserve list on 03/22/2014 12:43:35 MDT Print View

Good luck on the recovery. Sometimes injury go away as quick as they come. Hope that is the case for you.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: injured reserve list on 03/22/2014 13:44:58 MDT Print View

Hope this works itself out Mike.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: injured reserve list on 03/22/2014 18:24:15 MDT Print View

Mike - I fought achilles pain for 2 years, probably because I would not stop running.
I finished a couple 50 milers and could not walk for 2 days after, but a week later could run again.

yes ice,
also, if you can stretch your ""upper"" calf muscle by standing and leaning against the wall. often calf tension will lead to Achilles issues, and this stretch has helped me out a lot, the pain was in my heal but working the calf muscle with stretching and massage is what helped the most.

if you exercise, warm up well, and don't sprint for a while.
my guess is that nice Georgia weather got you all exited about running and you pushed the pace a bit, much different than snow shoeing.

... this is assuming its just a tendon problem and not a stress fracture.

Edited by asandh on 03/23/2014 09:51:47 MDT.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Eugene ? on 03/23/2014 09:38:00 MDT Print View

on another note ...

anyone heard from Eugene lately ?

Jacob D
(JacobD) - F

Locale: North Bay
Re: injured reserve list on 03/23/2014 12:46:53 MDT Print View

Mike, Sorry to hear that. Feel better soon.


I'm battling some sort of muscle injury the last week and a half. Of all things I think I pulled something in my calf messing around with my kids at the park. I have not attempted to run on it, just resting up now.



Art, I have not heard from Eugene. I sent him a msg bout a week or two ago with no response. I'm friends with him on FB; I get the sense he's been super busy with races lately.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Injured reserve list on 03/27/2014 13:05:31 MDT Print View

How are the injuries coming along guys?

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Injured reserve list on 03/27/2014 13:26:28 MDT Print View

me and John V. are good to go.

Mike ... how is the Achilles ?

True story
John had to abort a 50 mile race last week to carry a woman on his back 4 miles up a remote single track because she tripped and broke her leg.
so if anyone can't make the whole Zion Traverse on their own power ... he's your man.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Re: Injured reserve list on 03/27/2014 18:25:59 MDT Print View

Art- achilles is fine, unfortunately my heel definitely has a stress fracture :( I'm just now able to put a little weight on it, but am still limping

Sadly I'm going to be a no go, if I thought I could even hike a bit I'd go, but I'm pretty sure my best bet at recovery is to stay off of it until fully healed.

The reservation for the camp site is still good and I'm 99.9% sure that as a group site I don't need to physically be there- I'll call them to confirm that tomorrow. So there should be no problem with the camp site.

I know that injuries are part of the game, but this one really hurts (figuratively, but also literally). I know there is no good time to get injured, but right before a trip you've been looking forward to for months, just plain sucks.

Maybe I can pull a Carlos Castaneda, so keep a close eye on any odd looking crows!

Mike

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Re: Re: Injured reserve list on 03/27/2014 18:33:00 MDT Print View

Running sounds dangerous.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Re: Re: Injured reserve list on 03/27/2014 19:52:19 MDT Print View

Mike - can you give me an email address or ph number so we can discuss the camp site.

Craig - can I get your email also.

Greg - can I get your email also.

this situation has gotten small enough I don't really want to continue it on the forum.

thanks
art

Edited by asandh on 03/27/2014 22:35:13 MDT.

Jacob D
(JacobD) - F

Locale: North Bay
Re: Re: Re: Injured reserve list on 03/27/2014 22:40:09 MDT Print View

Damn Mike, bad timing. Injury sucks. I hope it heals up soon for you.

As for me, my leg is feeling alright and I plan to run. I know we've lost some folks lately but hoping we can still salvage something here, even if it just turns into a camping trip.

Eugene Smith
(Eugeneius) - MLife

Locale: Nuevo Mexico
Re: Eugene ? on 03/27/2014 23:35:43 MDT Print View

I'm alive and well.

My recent MIA status has been a result of several busy weeks juggling another successful year of race directing for the Sierra Vista Trail Runs with my good friend Dan C., here in our city, as well as running and racing a few myself, working, and balancing as best I can all of this with Mi Familia. I messaged Jacob D., as he reached out this week, and let him know that I had to make the decision to bail, *once again, on meeting up with all of you guys for Zion. This seems to be a pattern of mine, get jazzed to connect with everyone, train, make plans, change plans, etc.... I apologize for the late pullout from the roster, fellas. I'm bummed, but I know I'll meet up with some, or all, of you in the future in some capacity.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
injured on 03/28/2014 07:29:38 MDT Print View

Art- you have your pm turned off, here's my phone four zero six- 439- seven, one, one, zero

Eugene- sorry you can't make it

Jacob- glad to hear your healing!

Jacob D
(JacobD) - F

Locale: North Bay
Never Say Die on 03/28/2014 09:40:55 MDT Print View

Never for me the lowered banner, never the last endeavor.


- Sir Ernest Shackleton

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Never Say Die on 03/29/2014 21:10:44 MDT Print View

Sorry you can't make it Eugene.

For anyone following this here, Art got a site at Watchman that'll be cheaper than Mike's group site.

Adan and I have permits to do two canyons. We plan on doing a short one on Friday and then spending ~12 hours out on Saturday. We should be able to drive you all to the trailhead Saturday morning. Our shuttle doesn't leave until 9:30.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Re: Never Say Die on 03/31/2014 17:24:12 MDT Print View

Gents- got the group site cancelled; have a great time and please post up pics and trip report(s)!

Mike

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: Re: Never Say Die on 03/31/2014 17:40:09 MDT Print View

Thanks for helping out Mike, sorry you can't get out there. Can I help you with the cancellation fee?

Hiking Malto
(gg-man) - F
Weather report on 03/31/2014 19:46:08 MDT Print View

70 and sunny for the high. Doesn't get any better than that!!!!! Mentally I am already sitting in the desert watching the sunset. Physically I leave Friday morning. If only body could catch up with the mind.

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: Weather report on 03/31/2014 23:16:47 MDT Print View

for those arriving Thursday :
Watchman camp site C 7

for those arriving Friday :
Watchman camp site B 25

(had to combine 2 cancellations to make it work).

one weather report I've seen says as low as 25* at night at the start and finish.

Edited by asandh on 03/31/2014 23:27:24 MDT.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
friends from Helena on 04/01/2014 18:21:59 MDT Print View

Art & Gents- my friend Grant and his wife Robin are still coming, I think he may only be in the run to Grotto, but that could change. Craig- I gave him your telephone # (it's the only one I have)

Mike

Art ...
(asandh) - F
Re: friends from Helena on 04/01/2014 18:30:29 MDT Print View

Mike - that's great.
the only issue is we now have a single camp site for 6.
do you know what their plans are, arrival, accommodations ?
South Campground is first come first serve should we try and nab one for them ?

feel free to pass on my email address.

Edited by asandh on 04/01/2014 18:31:33 MDT.

Mike M
(mtwarden) - MLife

Locale: Montana
Re: Re: friends from Helena on 04/01/2014 18:51:19 MDT Print View

Art- I let him know they that the big group site was cancelled. I left a message on his cell phone to check South Campground and also for possible cancellations at Watchman. They may be headed that way now, very possible they will be there before you guys.

Thanks Mike

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: friends from Helena on 04/01/2014 19:04:23 MDT Print View

No problem Mike. I expect to be out there Thursday before dark. Tell him to call anytime.