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Ed Barkowski
(edbarkowski) - F
Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/04/2013 19:53:22 MDT Print View

Disclosure: In the interest of max exposure and feedback, I'm intentionally posting the following under 'gear' - not 'chaff' - expecting some may not agree. Before filing this away as propaganda, paranoia or political, first THINK and please know that I have loved and counted on this community for going on 8 years. It is based purely in our mutual adoration and study of all things backpacking. No zombies, for goodness sake. So, with respect to all and absolutely no agenda or premise of fear or fringe theory:

Assuming you have any remote interest or knowledge of the Prepper Mindset...

1. What, in your opinion, is the very BEST PACK for use in a "Bug Out Bag" setup?
(Are materials like Dyneema or 'Trishield Grid'* a must - for long term durability - or not?)
2. What is the optimal volume for venturing into the unknown?
(Pack for at 'overnight', 'extended weekend' or 'thru hike' experience?)
3. What [lightweight / ultralight] items would you choose as essentials if you thought there was a chance your 1, 2 or 3-day setup may turn into a long-term gear and survival kit? (Clean water, ability to hunt + gather, traditional crossovers from frontier ways?)
4. What else??? (I've read thousands of pages on BPL and hundreds on 'Prepper' sites, but I've never seen any good examples of folks bringing the two together in interesting or comprehensive ways. We lightweight lovers surely get a few kicks edging on that survival instinct now and then. Resourcefulness seems critical to hiking with less, and it is undoubtedly needed to keep one's life [or that of loved ones] afloat if options of relative luxury dwindle.)

Go!





* Trishield Grid = Seems to be proprietary to Lowe Alpine and a very legitimate contender for the best strength : weight. Tests conducted by L.A. yielded results more impressive than Dyneema's. Comments? I don't own any Lowe Alpine packs, so I can't say. Does anyone have first hand knowledge of this material's tenacity?

Edited by edbarkowski on 10/04/2013 21:18:38 MDT.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/04/2013 22:58:28 MDT Print View

Hi Ed, this is a topic and issue that i have given a good amount of thought to. I've come to the conclusion that long term survival and UL while not opposite are somewhat exclusive of each other. I think, relatively light, is the best that most could realistically hope for. Now, if you're Wim Hoff, a long time Tibetan Monk, Yeshua, Cody Lundin, or the like, then you probably could get away with UL and being comfortable.

I will answer more specifically later, but alas, i have to wake up early for work tomorrow.

I will just somewhat briefly add, that besides my and my wife's 70 Liter Jam backpacks, we also have a somewhat light weight bicycle trailer, which is what i would put the heavier essentials in, like a shovel, my fiskars wood splitting axe, extra insulation (wool/alpaca throws), extra food/water, etc. This trailer can be both pushed and pulled at the same time, because i have a harness i can hook up to it, and if we're going up a hill or what not, my wife could either push while i pull or vice versa.

I will also generally add, i'm not the typical "prepper" as far as i can tell. I'm not stocking up on guns, ammo, etc, and i don't live my life in fear whatsoever and while i think about this topic some i mostly live in the present. Yet, i've always been keenly intuitive and for a long time aware of the bigger pictures, and knowing from experience that the law of like attracts and begets like is a fundamental universal law built into all levels of reality physical and nonphysical, i know the US is due for a collapse for she has continually put out that which is destructive and limiting in nature in relation to others and self, and eventually this will come back around in concentrated form.

It's interesting how a percentage of NDE accounts involve people being given or shown info about major collapse and short term major challenges, testing, and intense suffering, but also of rebuilding and of golden era of universal compassion, respect for each other and nature, and a society free of all the various ills and imbalances and immense emotional and spiritual suffering that is so common place now. A truly happy and at peace humanity. I've been given glimpses of that in various ways also, and i really, really, really look forward to that.

When i was a little kid of 4, and asked what i wanted to be when i grew up, i told my parents quite insistently that i wanted to be, and would be, a doctor to everyone, everywhere and that i would always be there for anyone. I did not literally want to be a "doctor" but rather, i was *VERY* aware of and sensitive to the suffering of those around me and of the world in general, and all i could think about was alleviating that in some way because it quite literally hurt. My dad, a musician, was very touched by the spirit of compassion in this message, and wrote a song about it called "Dr. Everywhere"

"I had a talk with my son, i asked him when you grow up... what is that you wanna do, you wanna be?

I see you draw pretty fine, straighter than mine, you sing the songs that you hear, you got a good ear, tell me what's on your mind?

He said, 'Dad, i wanna be a doctor, doctor to everyone, i'll always be there, i'll be everywhere..'
Dr. Everywhere, Dr. Everywhere, Dr. Everywhere., Dr. Everywhere..

He talked of pain in this world, all the people that hurt, 'Daddy.. whose gonna care, show some concern..'

And it brought tears to my eyes, to see this 4 year old try to understand that we all, have so much to learn.. and it's time we begin.

Chorus again/then ends."







Red sky lullabies.

Edited by ArcturusBear on 10/04/2013 22:59:42 MDT.

Steven Diogenes
(stevenn) - F
:) on 10/05/2013 00:10:21 MDT Print View

Thanks for sharing that, Justin :)

Daniel Pittman
(pitsy) - M

Locale: Central Texas
Re: Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/05/2013 00:53:50 MDT Print View

Nah, it's legit to post this in Gear.

Primarily, you will need to consider more durable items, and nothing that runs out. You will be able to resupply, but I think you'll want to avoid most population centers because shit's gonna hit the fan when the grid goes down.

One thing you know you'll need is clean water to drink. Sawyer filters are the best. Nothing to replace, easy to clean, very long life. Just don't let them freeze.

Food. You need dense calories, and easy-cook or no-cook is best. You'll need to know how to hunt and trap, and forage.

Shelter. Stealth is key. Need to be able to move quickly.

All this is pointing my opinion in the direction of thru-hiking gear. You'll be travelling for a while to get to your hunker-down spot. Travel light and fast. Once you get there, you can reassess the situation and transition to long term survival.

The details of your kit might be dictated by where you're bugging out from, and where you plan to hunker down.

John S.
(jshann) - F
Re: Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/05/2013 06:15:46 MDT Print View

What they said, thru-hiker gear plus some more.

1. Golite jam
2. 3000 cubic inches
3 and 4.

1. Medical- long term kit
2. Shelter- car you can sleep in, tarp/bug netting
3. Fire- lighter, matches, flint/striker
4. Hydration- filter, containers, chlorine bleach drops, aqua mira drops
5. Communication- HAM radio, PLB, cell phone, am/fm radio
6. Navigation- compass, gps, maps of area, headlamp and extra batteries
7. Nutrition- no cook foods, simple cook foods on woodstove, multivitamin
8. Insulation- for expected lows over long term
9. Sun Protection- use clothing and shelter
10. Tools- bigger knife, compact saw, hunting equipment, solar charger

P.S. the car won't fit in the pack.

Edited by jshann on 10/05/2013 06:27:02 MDT.

spelt the enigmatic
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Re: Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/05/2013 09:00:18 MDT Print View

I think this depends a LOT on your location and what disaster you are preparing for. Bug-out/prepper stuff seems always aimed at, like, total collapse of civilization kinda scenarios. Personally I feel like it's much more practical to look at the potential for natural disasters where you live and tailor your emergency kit (note the wording) accordingly. This is less fun than imagining yourself fleeing to Canada or Mexico on foot, but probably more likely to be useful.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/05/2013 09:12:07 MDT Print View

I keep enough in the car so that I can walk home the 18 miles if needed. Spending one night out. I'm only concerned about natural disasters. Earthquakes and Tsunamis being the big two with wildfire right behind. Makes a good use for that bomber, heavyweight gear we have around.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/05/2013 09:23:22 MDT Print View

1. I'm not saying that a ULA pack is the "best" but if they can survive a triple-crown, then it's good enough for bug out purposes. My Ohm 2.0 is pretty large and even when I'm geared up for 20* weather, I have room to spare. If I were to get a pack specifically for this purpose, I'd probably look at a circuit or catalyst so I could haul a lot of water and food.

2. To me this is like asking "what's the optimal volume for UL backpacking?" I'd gather all of the gear you intend to carry and then make a pack decision based on that.

3. .22lr rifle, an ESSE-5 or comparable knife, a lightweight saw, and a lightweight hatchet. Surviving off the land is a very short term solution as millions of other Americans will try to do the same thing; deer and other natural resources will be hunted to near extinction within a year. I'm not going to go too far into the weeds as far as firearms for personal safety but if you're traveling with a group, variety is the spice of life; mix it up with shotguns, 9mm's, 5.56 rifles, and again, .22lr because you can carry 1000s of rounds very easily. If I could only carry one gun from my arsenal, it'd be a .22lr.

4. A multitude of tarps. I'd rely on insulation first and fire/stoves as a distant second for warmth. Synthetic insulation would probably be worth the weight penalty in this scenario. +1 Sawyer but you'll be SOL in the winter. I'd pack a ti pot which is at least 1.3 liters for boiling/sterilizing water. I'd pack several bottles of Aqua Mira. Multiple fire sources. Quality compass. Few electronics and of those, ones which will work with AA or AAA batteries. Multiple levels of FAK; keep a large one in your ruck and a smaller one on your person. A basic survival kit which is always in your pocket in case you are ever separated from your ruck.

I had to live through the January 1997 ice storm in NY, responded to WTC as a first responder, and was on deck to respond to Katrina. I think prepping has a stigma attached to it because there are some super-freaks who are spokesmen for it but if you study history, I think this is a good idea.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 10/05/2013 09:26:35 MDT.

Roger Dodger
(RogerDodger) - F

Locale: Wess Siide
Re: Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/05/2013 10:14:05 MDT Print View

While there is the base starter list, there is no one-size-fits-all template checklist.

Start with the scenario being prepared for:

Type of regional disaster, natural & intentional
On the west coast, we have experienced:
-Earthquakes (Northridge, Whithier)
-Fires (forest fires, riots fires)
-Mud slides (forests, beach hillside)
-Riots (destruction, fires, and looting)
-Freeway shutdown (collapse or Carmageddon maintenance)


Assign an estimated max duration for the uniformed emergency services to recover
Earthquake = 1 day.
Fires = up to 1 week typically.
Mud slides = about a week.
Riots (Major) For the historic repeating 30 years cycle, the national guard was dispatched on Day-4.
Riots (minor) Such as sports events, usually 1 day.

For acts of war and terrorism, not experienced on the West Coast, I guesstimate 1 week.

For tsunami (also not experienced recently) I guestimmate 2 weeks.

Will these scenarios, be cause to evacuate on foot/backpack?
Earthquake - Yes.
Fires: usually there is plenty of time for an organized car motorcade evacuation. People pile everything in the car, and drive to a motel 100 miles away.
Riots (major/minor): I find that most people chose to stay home and protect property, and water hose the roof for fires. No evacuation.

So by my reasoning for the west coast, earthquakes, tsunami and sudden acts of war, would be cause to flee on foot. However these happen so quickly, if you are still intact, there is no reason to flee.

so the plan shifts to making shelter near the disaster zone.

Edited by RogerDodger on 10/05/2013 19:16:55 MDT.

Tim Zen
(asdzxc57) - F

Locale: MI
Re: Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/05/2013 11:43:16 MDT Print View

What exactly are you bugging from and where do you propose to bug to?

Hypothetically, if you are alone walking away from an event and three people with guns see your gear, well then what?

Roger Dodger
(RogerDodger) - F

Locale: Wess Siide
Re: Re: Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/05/2013 14:38:10 MDT Print View

Good point Tim
>> What exactly are you bugging from and where do you propose to bug to?

I'm thinking of the old evolutionary cliche, fight or flight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=669Hi-JcoIQ

Realistically, the metropolitan scenario is that either your car or the highways are not operational, and you need to walk home from work about 20 miles, to be with your support system (family and friends)

Since it's unlikely that you will have the bug-out pack inside the office, it will most likely be in your car trunk.

For office space free-range cubicle dwellers, office footwear is terrible for any kind of distance and load carrying.

Edited by RogerDodger on 10/05/2013 14:51:44 MDT.

Ed Barkowski
(edbarkowski) - F
Good reasoning on 10/05/2013 18:51:54 MDT Print View

A big THANK YOU to all those who have posted. I appreciate your thoughts immensely and further appreciate there being no hard feelings about the subject being raised where and how it was.

As some background, my own scenario is this: Rural Colorado, about 2 hours from Denver (or much else I'd consider a population center). The job allows me to dress as I please and - if I so desired - bring a full pack to work with little or no difficulty or harassment.

Though I wouldn't necessarily feel the need or want to flee in the wake of any large scale disaster or domino collapse, I know that many of you would want or require that option. So, much of this thread is for those folks. But I can't help be intrigued by the opinions on specific gear pieces others would suggest and why. My SHTF kit may not be AS needed as that of those living in fragile or volatile places, but I'm still into the idea of reasonable [ultralight style] readiness. As someone who has felt the ease, reward and infatuation that accompanies packing light, I can't help but build my dream kit (first in mind, then in practice).

Some thoughts from you I'll echo:

Stealth existence would probably be imperative during the onset of anything involving violence or hysteria. For this, I immediately think bivy (camo, black, etc), little to no cooking or fire (again - dense calories that don't require heat), insulating layers (for dear life), solar charger accommodating AA [and maybe AAA] Eneloop batteries, a select few electronics that may need powering (Light: Zebralight - hands down! Radio: Kaito KA1103), Knife: Large Ka-Bar for batoning, Gun: [22] Marlin model 60, and so on.

If things were to settle down (or never escalate in the first place), mobility would be unnecessary and one's bug out kit could shrink, once again, to a fanny pack's worth of gear. Communal living would regain popularity, I'd guess, as it's 10x harder to strike out on one's own. Local farms may become the centerpieces to such communities.

And as for the pack: Jam is a good suggestion for its durability and affordability. Mountain Laurel and Gossamer Gear [and the like] are probably shoe-ins for their use of tough fabrics [and their outstanding customer service]. Longevity is everything - bugging out or not. Not many of us have money to throw at a new pack every season, so robustness is key.

I trailed off. So much to think about.

MANY THANKS for your words. Keep them coming!!

Edited by edbarkowski on 10/05/2013 22:29:19 MDT.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Re: Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/05/2013 18:55:36 MDT Print View

Some points before i go into specifics of preparations relating to gear etc.

Rodger Dodger, your list is good, but you really should add Solar events to that list. Much of the worlds electrical grid system, especially North America's, is pretty fragile. If we have another Carrington like event, say goodbye to electricity for many years, and once that electricity goes down, is when things are going to get very rough especially in populous areas.

We just had a fairly unusually strong Solar event a few days ago. Red Auroras were seen not that far from the equator (around 45 degree latitudes or so). Visible red auroras not close to the Poles are fairly rare and signify very intense charging of and reaction with the atmosphere due to strong Solar outbursts.

I'm not sure how much i should or should not talk about some of my experiences--especially on a forum with so many strongly and predominantly left brain types. I want to warn people, but i also don't want to create fear, and so i feel kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place. A few brief summaries. I'm very much watching the Sun-especially during this Solar Maximum because though it has for the most part been unusually quiet for a Solar Maximum some of the info i've been given relates to the Sun and to unusual activity as being a possibility or probability.

I've been meditating for many years. Sometime during meditation, i receive information that i don't consciously generate. I've had numerous experiences were this information has been verified beyond coincidence, like for example, some future oriented stuff. I also have dreams like this occasionally. My wife has these kind of experiences too, and has experienced a lot of verification of information she couldn't have possibly known consciously. I've had multiple of these kinds of experiences over many years and i've learned to trust this more or less (i always try to keep a mindset of "open minded but skeptical").

When i was younger, i was shown "red skies". I had no idea what that meant (took me years to fully figure out). During a meditation one time, i asked about any future probable collapse and had like a waking dream (it was a very deep meditation) of a very active and explosive Sun. I eventually figured out the Red skies relates to the Sun and unusually intense Solar activity. Both my wife and i have had many dreams relating to this and to an unusually powerful Solar cycle. Right now, i kind of think we are experiencing the calm before the storm.

That recent Solar storm though, was just a small taste of what's to come. As to exactly when a Solar event will knock out much of the electrical grid, i don't know, i'm not even very sure it will even be this Solar Max, but if i was a betting man, i would probably say so. In any case, the future is somewhat fluid and one can only talk in terms of greater or lesser probabilities for different time frames. I do think and get the sense that this is a high probability, but again as to exact times, i've not been given that info except to be told, i will have some heads up when it's necessary.

I doubt most here will take any of the above seriously on a conscious level, but hopefully it plants some good subconscious seeds for when the time comes. The more of those of us with good hearts, good intentions, and good survival skills or awareness, the better off we all will be as a species in the rebuilding. There is no "end of the world" here, just another collapse as has happened to many societies recent and well recorded and those ancient and less well recorded.

There is nothing to fear, when you realize that you are much more than your physical body, and that you, the real you, cannot be killed or ended (though starving kind of sucks, and watching ones loved ones suffer sucks too). Even if that wasn't true, well we all die anyways, so, so what to exactly when and exactly how we go. Either way you cut it, death isn't a big deal. Those who get to go, in some ways will be the lucky ones. We who stay will have a challenging period ahead of us, but hopefully with the very real potential to finally create a truly civilized civilization out of the ashes of the old.

I know a lot of the above will sound very "new agey", and i can't fault that interpretation, but suffice it to say, if you knew me in person you would realize i'm a lot less new agey than the above seems to imply.

Roger Dodger
(RogerDodger) - F

Locale: Wess Siide
Re: Re: Re: Re: Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/05/2013 19:40:17 MDT Print View

Justin,
it's fine on the 'new age' meditation vision. I do find the humor though and I'll stereotype here. 100% of my family and friends's lives are heavily weaved with technology and electricity dependent product. Can't even convince my wife that the hair blow dryer on high setting has the electro magnetic field (EMF) of 10x microwave ovens, as stated in the junk mail of my power utility company.

So to address your concerns about the solar flares as it relates to electricity.
Satellites, computers, internet access, cell phones, radios, TVs are out.

This is pretty much why people go camping, to get away from the grid.

I'm fine with that. My wife will endlessly complain about the lack of a blow dryer, and I'll have to invent her a mechanical one (Michelangelo style)

Without electricity, alarms don't work, police radios fail, there will be looting at first, but people in many war impacted countries have managed new rules and security processes with electricity rolling blackouts.

One thing less mentioned, is that without TV or internet, and dark at 7:30PM, there will be a spike in pregnancies and followed by newborn baby boom. That phenomenon has happened in history.

so bug out - where ever that destination may be, consider that a large part of the population will be evacuating at the slow speed of mules.

Edited by RogerDodger on 10/05/2013 19:43:21 MDT.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Re: Re: Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/05/2013 19:41:39 MDT Print View

"What exactly are you bugging from and where do you propose to bug to?"

See above recent post of mine.

"Hypothetically, if you are alone walking away from an event and three people with guns see your gear, well then what?"

Chances are, most people right away are not going to be that aggressive and bestial in nature. Least not when something first happens. Hence, most of those of us with smarts, good gear and skill, will be able to make it to the woods and the woods and wild places will be our best friends.

It's when widespread starvation, freezing, severe thirst or the like kicks in, then one will have to worry more about the above type scenario. Hypothetically speaking, if a long term collapse happens, i think things will get pretty rough for awhile, especially in cities and the like, but ultimately i think there are a lot of good people on this Earth that will move more actively in leadership or exemplar roles, and really help people out, and i think small communities will build up faster than one may think, and i think these kind of intentional communities will be our saving grace.

I've been involved with current intentional communities some, and while they are a lot of work, they can and do work when the ideals are right and commonly shared. That's what the future will be about, common shared practical, collectively helpful ideals.

So, let's not sell humanity out too fast. Without the influence of mainstream media, corporations, international banking systems, corrupt government, standard currency/money, etc, etc, i think people have a real good shot of getting their acts together and rebuilding a much better civilization based on less materialistic and selfish ideals, but more on sharing, helping one another, and treating the earth and nature with a lot more respect.

Along those lines, check out some of Howard Storm's NDE accounts. The man was a hard core atheist and materialistic hedonist, and self professed unhappy ahole before his NDE. During his NDE, he was given future information and was shown some different collapse probabilities. He was very surprised to see a very enlightened and happy civilization arising fairly quickly after a collapse. There are other accounts similar to his. He like many others, was also told that the Creative Forces weren't particularly happy about the direction that America has taken.

Speaking of NDE's, and especially one with A LOT of credibility, check out "Proof of Heaven", awesome account of a hard core trained scientific professional type, whose brain was more or less mush during his experiences. Nothing to do with future collapse stuff, but if you're at all open minded as well as skeptical, quite convincing. Other than a book, the man isn't selling anything except positive messages about the importance of love, kindness, etc.

Ok, i promise to get to the gear and the more left brain stuff in the next post.

Roger Dodger
(RogerDodger) - F

Locale: Wess Siide
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/05/2013 19:53:58 MDT Print View

so... I have close family and friends, and we are distributed within 1 hr driving / 60 miles, of each other.

in a catastrophic scenario, I would not run to the hills, run for my life.

it's my moral obligation to reach my nearest point of contact, and help them, then move again to reach the elderly relatives who would need the most help.

In my circle, there are only 1 or 2 other persons who are physically fit for an exodus. For my realistic life scenario, I will choose to be with the ones that cannot get by on their own.

then again, with everyone being distributed, if there was a disaster in one part of the state, 60 miles away has generally been semi-safe. Even in cases of riots, fires, power blackouts.

Edited by RogerDodger on 10/05/2013 19:56:09 MDT.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/05/2013 20:27:43 MDT Print View

Roger, humor is always good and appreciated (when not at the hurtful expense of others). And yes, after the initial stress and challenges wear down, i suspect there will be a lot of baby making. But i also suspect that at some point, a conscious, collective decision to limit population by having very few children, will be agreed upon by most due to more concern with the environment and our impact on the Earth as a whole system.


Ok, gear stuff. Here are some of our supplies, well actually, a lot of the gear (or ideas related to same) that i've talked about here, is not just for backpacking, but also connected to collapse oriented stuff. I love backpacking, but it's also an opportunity for me to test my survival based gear and to refine things.

Oh, and while i said i'm not stocking up on guns and ammo like a lot of people who are "prepping", i do have some connection. My wife, after having some dreams about collapse type stuff and seeing herself carrying a rifle in a couple of these, thought it might be a good idea to buy a gun. She did a lot of research and came up with Ruger LR 22 rifle and some related ammo for self protection and hunting (yes, we who are mostly vegetarian now minus the occasional wild caught fish, realize we may have to hunt some if stuff like this happens).

Besides her rifle and ammo, i have a compound bow and she has a re curve bow. I like the idea of bows in a lot of ways, because it's easier to make your own arrows than to forage ammo from stores where strongly selfish type people will be setting traps and watching closely. Bows are also mostly silent, and the right bow with the right arrows are quite powerful, can easily take down even black bear.

We have a bunch of seeds of various kinds, especially drought resistant plants--this is more for long term stuff once things settle.

Multiple and different kinds of rain gear. I have Stoic Vaporshell, Paramo type stuff, poncho tarp, some Frogg Toggs and tyvek tape (emergency back up use only) etc.

Our main tent is a Seek Outside 3 person silnylon Tipi tent with corresponding titanium wood stove. Besides the titanium wood stove for the tent, i have a mini titanium cook stove. Alcohol, esbit, etc, are only short term options.

Lot's of lightweight, strong cord, and of different kinds. Some dyneema stuff, and some nylon stuff (for climbing).

Solar and hand crank chargers and rechargeable batteries for lighting options.

I mentioned earlier a better method of carrying more and heavier gear, the modded bicycle trailer than can be pushed and pulled simultaneously--small, lightweight, very maneuverable, and can run fast with it if necessary.

Another option along those lines are well made, jogging strollers.

Water filtration--having multiple stuff is key. Some filter straws (with carbon) and Sawyer squeeze. Very important, store Sawywer squeeze always in some high ethanol content liquid. Will keep it freezing, and constantly disinfect it.

Also have a more serious water filter gravity style, with ceramic, silver, carbon, etc than lasts a long time and can be cleaned. Not close to be UL, but water will be the new oil and gold in the future, especially during solar heats. If a water source is questionable, always dig a few feet down, a couple of yards away from it.

For animal protection, besides the bows and a gun, i have a hybrid Cold Steele Katana-machete type blade that has a tanto point. I've learned i can also throw this like a spear very well short distances.

Course a couple of knives. Another one i like is another Cold Steel one that is designed to be turned into a spear point--has a hollow handle with a small hole for a nail, screw, etc. Also a smaller knife that will always be kept on person.

Which relates to A VERY important piece of gear, more important than backpack, more important than down or Apex insulation, more important than a tent, a stove, etc, etc.

A rugged, long lasting fanny pack, which in my case i've chosen Zpacks Multi-pack. Essential beyond belief. This will have all the most important gear in it, a small lightweight but functional knife (like a Mora), fire starting, emergency blanket, extra windshirt, compass (though that will get very unreliable during strong solar activity because of how it screws with the magnetic field), some extra high calorie food, Sawyer filter, water container (Evernew), and a filter straw, etc.

One can run very fast with a fully loaded, right sized fanny pack. Try running very fast with a fully loaded, 70L Jam, or the like. The point is, do not get separated from your fanny pack, wear it almost always. It's much easier to get separated from a backpack under certain conditions.

There's definitely more, but i also want to point out that for me, this stuff is only for the transition period. I plan on becoming much more Native American like as i learn and adapt to living outside in nature. Eventually a lot of the above will be dropped and we will rely more on skill and certain mind sets. I've been working on this some as well, but probably not as much as i could be. I find mind sets/attitude is extremely important in any kind of difficulty or challenge.

God, an uber liberal "prepper", what is the world coming to, an end or something?

;) :)

Edited by ArcturusBear on 10/06/2013 07:13:33 MDT.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/05/2013 21:08:40 MDT Print View

Hi Steven, thanks, i appreciate the appreciation! I kind of expected to get lambasted by posting some of this kind of stuff here (perhaps i will more so just experience silent ostracization by the majority later). I'm not sure why i went into the personal stuff so much either, but it felt right at the time.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/05/2013 21:19:51 MDT Print View

Hi Roger,

That's very commendable. My wife and i don't have any particularly close ties anywhere near us, but i know we will very much be involved with helping people further down the line if something like this happened. In fact, i plan to devote my life and all my energy to it. To some extent, my life is already devoted to it.

Also, remember, for a full collapse scenario, death will actually be much easier than trying to survive. There is nothing wrong with death, it's misnamed. Speaking as someone very close to their mother (we even had the same b-day), who watched her get sick with cancer at age 16, and later watched her die when age 20 (amidst many other simultaneous challenges).

It's "ok" to let go of people if you can't realistically help them survive (like an elderly person), because in reality, we're always connected to others, especially those those we share love bonds with. Try your best for those whom you can help, but expend your energy where it's most needed and most helpful in a long term sense.

Don Morris
(hikermor) - F
Bugging Out on 10/05/2013 21:46:12 MDT Print View

Given an urban context, if I felt I had to travel any significant distance, say twenty miles or more, I would seriously consider using my touring bike, with or without a trailer. For the same energy expenditure, I could easily travel three times as far in about half the time, and go nearly everywhere I could reach on foot with a backpacking load. If the bike breaks down, then start walking.

With experience in backpacking, one has an idea of personal capabilities, and one is likely to have appropriate gear. For many years, I actively participated in mountain SAR, keeping a basic backpack ready to go on very short notice. In effect, it was a bug out bag, tweaked at intervals for seasonal, local conditions (big difference in Arizona between winter and summer).

The variables in play for different disasters differ considerably,so planning ahead and playing "what if" games will be fruitful. In general, I prefer bugging in to bugging out, but that isn't always prudent or possible.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Bugging Out on 10/05/2013 22:09:40 MDT Print View

I earlier wrote, "Also, remember, for a full collapse scenario, death will actually be much easier than trying to survive. There is nothing wrong with death, it's misnamed."

Some might ask, then why are you trying to survive such a scenario, why the prepping, etc, etc?

It's a good question, if i was a more selfish type person but still knowing what i know via experiences, i would gladly take the option of checking out. See yah later on the other side! A lot of other dimensions/consciousness levels are quite nice vacation places. Far easier and more pleasant than the physical. My selfish side would love such a vacation or retirement at a younger age.

But, i have the ability, the desire, etc, to help others on various levels and that's the sole reason why i will be trying to survive. Sort of relates to those feelings and perceptions i had when very little. I've come close to death a couple of times, and can honestly say, i have no fear of it whatsoever.

@ Don, i don't even know why it's called a bug out bag.

Daniel Pittman
(pitsy) - M

Locale: Central Texas
Re: Re: Bugging Out on 10/06/2013 23:19:03 MDT Print View

"@ Don, i don't even know why it's called a bug out bag."

Because it keeps the bugs out, silly.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Bugging Out on 10/06/2013 23:46:45 MDT Print View

"i don't even know why it's called a bug out bag."

It's hard to say for sure, but it has been a military term for at least sixty years, perhaps since the Korean War, 1950-1953. I was on the DMZ some years after the war, and we were in a delicate position on the DMZ. If we came under full scale attack from the north, we had approximately 15 minutes to "get the hell out of Dodge." The term in use then was that we would "bug out." Obviously, we could not move our total Army gear with us that quickly, so we were instructed to have a "bug out bag" ready to go in our barracks. That was to contain enough clothing and gear that it could be grabbed up and thrown onto the back of a truck for a very speedy ride across the river. We needed to have that to last us maybe for a couple of days. The bag was waterproof, in case we had to swim the river after the bridges were blown.

--B.G.--

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: Bugging Out on 10/07/2013 00:02:38 MDT Print View

Bugging out is an old military term for breaking camp in a hurry when the battle lines change.

I remember discussing this when hurricane Katrina struck. Anyone with a good multi-day hiking kit has all the things needed for a long trek once the initial disaster has struck. People walk the whole continent on through hikes, needing only more food and fuel and most UL shoes will go 600 miles. In the Katrina example, once the storm had passed, someone could have walked hundreds of miles from the stricken area, provided they found treatable water sources and could supplement whatever food they had on hand. Even the food factor wouldn't be life-threatening for some time--- not much fun of course.

What is in my hiking kit that I wouldn't want in a survival kit? The whole idea of my gear list is to be self-sufficient in an environment that doesn't meet my needs to remain warm, dry, nourished, hydrated and "found."

Even my day hiking kit can cover these needs short-term and my multi-day kit can do it in good comfort for weeks or months. I might want to add a light folding saw for gathering firewood, which I normally wouldn't use for hiking.

Shelter
Sleep system
Extra clothing
Rain gear
First aid kit
Knife
Fire starting items
Lighting
Water purification and storage
Cook kit
Food
Signaling
Navigation

No need for zombie scenarios, just the ability to be self-supporting and to move out of an affected area as needed. I could walk to Missoula, Montana in about three weeks, Portland, Oregon in a week or Vancouver, Canada in 6 days and I can be deep into the Cascades in 2 days. No need for military style gear and I think my UL kit will give me great versatility and mobility.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Bugging Out on 10/07/2013 00:16:59 MDT Print View

Thank you for the humor and the historical lessons folks.


Dale, but what about in a complete collapse scenario, like what would probably happen with a Carrington like Solar event/really powerful and Earth directed CME?

I don't think the UL kit would cut it unless the person had some honed and well practiced bush craft skills, and even then, you would want some kind of hunting equipment whether bow or gun.

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: Re: Re: Bugging Out on 10/07/2013 00:54:55 MDT Print View

"Dale, but what about in a complete collapse scenario, like what would probably happen with a Carrington like Solar event/really powerful and Earth directed CME?"

I worry more about a big seismic event with a total utility outage and major damage to all the local transportation systems. Surviving a major astronomical event on the long term is doubtful at my age. If I have shelter, food and water, I don't need much more bushcraft skills than gathering firewood and starting a fire. At best I would hope to be able to camp locally if my home is destroyed, or walk out of the area where I can find support.

If someone can walk from Mexico to Canada or cover 1000 miles in the Arctic with an UL kit, what else are you going to ask of it? Having the light weight would be an excellent advantage. So many want military grade gear, which I don't think is necessary. In combat, soldiers are carrying incredibly heavy loads with items like forearms, grenades, ammunition, communication gear, etc. A soldier may be required to run, dive for cover, crawl and scrape over all kinds of surfaces. Rock climbers probably come closest to that kind of use. Walking down a road or trail doesn't come close and the light weight will take me farther and faster to a place where I can get more support.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Re: Re: Bugging Out on 10/07/2013 01:59:42 MDT Print View

I understand what you are saying and i generally agree, except on a few key points, for example, "If someone can walk from Mexico to Canada or cover 1000 miles in the Arctic with an UL kit, what else are you going to ask of it?"

Those folks are still doing the above in relation to some sort of civilization wherein they can pick up food and fuel supplies at some place eventually. Not to mention phones, or emergency homing devices in case they get in real trouble..

No such luck in a complete collapse scenario, which is one of the reasons why i don't think a UL system would be practical for most under those conditions. Someone like Cody Lundin could probably get away with it, but not us average folk nor even most of the UL super hikers who rely on replaceable gear, buying food, emergency services if injured, etc. We're talking total self sufficiency, and even if one has that at home (solar, garden, farm, etc), no such luck staying in one place unless you live in a very isolated area and well hidden unless you want to fight to keep what you have.

Generally speaking, with a few exceptions, the more UL a kit, the less durable it is, and durability is a huge factor in a full collapse situation.

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/07/2013 02:38:40 MDT Print View

"It's interesting how a percentage of NDE accounts involve people being given or shown info about major collapse and short term major challenges, testing, and intense suffering, but also of rebuilding and of golden era of universal compassion, respect for each other and nature, and a society free of all the various ills and imbalances and immense emotional and spiritual suffering that is so common place now. A truly happy and at peace humanity. I've been given glimpses of that in various ways also, and i really, really, really look forward to that. "

Wishful thinking. History tells me that taking away law and order you end up with something closer to the Lord Of The Flies.

What happens when the Police force in a town goes on strike ?
Now imagine no police/army whatsoever and see what happens.

BTW, I too wish for a better world but I see no sign whatsoever that humanity is capable of overcoming selfishness and greed.
One of the reasons, for example, that the Communist experiment failed.
The idea was not really flowed, people are.
But yes, walk out of town post collapse with your cart and a smile on your face and you will be the first one to be robbed.

Rick M
(rmjapan) - F

Locale: Tokyo, Japan
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bugging Out on 10/07/2013 04:01:55 MDT Print View

End of world preppers are just fooling yourselves. Seems clear to me if the world electric grid collapses and with every electronic device damaged beyond repair , no working transport, and hundreds of nuclear power plants in meltdown, imminent mass urban starvation and social breakdown with hundreds of million of rotting corpses laying about, would make any survival for the few beyond 30 days a living hell.

Edited by rmjapan on 10/07/2013 04:04:09 MDT.

spelt the enigmatic
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bugging Out on 10/07/2013 07:28:23 MDT Print View

Justin, why do you keep pushing this topic from reasonable emergency preparedness to ridiculous hypotheticals?

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Bugging Out on 10/07/2013 08:33:40 MDT Print View

Researchers who have studied Ice core samples estimate that Carrington like Solar events happen on average about once in every 500 years. Smaller/less intense, but still potentially devastating to current technology, events are said to occur much more frequently. The electrical grid system in most countries (especially the US) is actually quite fragile. In 1989 the grid was knocked down for awhile in Quebec due to a strongish Solar event/geomagnetic storm.

We are currently in a Solar Maximum (wherein such events are most likely due the temporarily unstable nature of the Sun), and more specifically scientists think the Sun is about to flip its poles in the very near future, which is the period of a Solar maximum that is often the most unstable.

In the further past, these kind of Solar events weren't a big deal to humanity, other than creating pretty light shows even close to the equator. But in a civilization so dependent on electronics and electricity, and with Solar fragile system, we should be paying attention to this issue because such an event can EASILY cause full total collapse. A study was done which indicated that if a Carrington event happened in recent times, instead of in the mid 1800's like it happened last, that it would cost at least a couple of trillion in damages to the infrastructure. Really, when you factor in societal chaos, looting, etc, it would be worse than that imo.

Science, percentages, averages, and physical evidence aside i've had another side of life proven to me time and time again. This side, we could call the "non local". I believe that the fundamental reality is based on a unity, a oneness, and that all exists within a one field. I've been tuned into that side of reality to some extent since i was little (see Dr. Everywhere).

Both my wife and i have been given information in various different ways, over a period of time, that such a Solar event is a high probability in the near future. I care about people A LOT, so much so that i'm willing to appear ridiculous, "crazy", imbalanced or what not in public.

All i'm saying essentially is, "prepare for the worst, and hope for the best". Future is never completely fixed, only terms of probability. Note, i did not start this thread, but once it was started, i figured it was as good as any time to go more into this stuff.

So needless to say i really disagree with "ridiculous hypotheticals".

If you start to see the red skies pretty much everywhere, even close to the equator, then either make your peace, or if you want to be involved the long term of helping others and rebuilding a better, kinder society, then pack your bug out bag and pack it well, and get the heck out of any city and populous areas and back to nature. You can't stop people and society from going crazy and becoming very selfish, but what you can do, is to help others after things settle down some. That's my plan should this happen.

My last post here on this specific topic.

Edited by ArcturusBear on 10/07/2013 10:00:35 MDT.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
It's the end of the world as we know it on 10/07/2013 09:57:59 MDT Print View

"Wishful thinking. History tells me that taking away law and order you end up with something closer to the Lord Of The Flies."

My experiences in similar situations are as a peacekeeper in the Balkans in the '90s and as a first responder at the WTC.

I saw both sides of the spectrum; extreme evil and extreme good.

The genocide in the Balkans speaks for itself but I was always amazed at how resilient the children were. When we were out on patrol, we'd have dozens of kids come running out of their houses with ear to ear smiles waving at us. It's difficult to put into words but with the the destruction in the background, seeing these happy healthy children gave me a sense of hope.

I was stationed in upstate NY as an EMT and was just returning from breakfast when the second airplane hit the tower. I called my boss and told him to put me on the list to respond to the city. We were rotated in a couple days later. When we arrived at the staging area near Canal Street, I couldn't believe the reports I was hearing. Looters were opening body bags and stealing "souvenirs" like badges off of dead officers and firefighters and taking pictures of the bodies. There were reports of survivors making phone calls from inside the rubble; it turned out that these reports were later proved to be hoaxes made by people who were nowhere near the WTC. People were behaving so horribly that they had to deploy the National Guard to reduce access to Ground Zero. Not even considering how horrible the terrorist act was to begin with, seeing what my own people were doing to each other was enough for me to permanently lose faith in humanity forever.

But I didn't. Once it was our turn to rotate into Ground Zero, there were hundreds of NYers standing on the sides of the road cheering us on. As we waited for a patient to help, citizens who otherwise felt helpless in the rescue effort took action to assist the best way they could. Some of them just walked around with cartons of cigarettes for the rescue workers. Others drove around with coolers full of sandwiches and drinks. At the time, I still suffered from some occasional back pain resulting from my military service and would randomly pop my back and neck. Apparently someone noticed this and the next thing I knew, a jogger grabbed my shoulders from behind (insert prison joke here) and said "it's ok, I'm a chiropractor." He proceeded to adjust my neck and I felt like a million bucks. I'm not a touchy feely person and do not react well to people putting their hands on me uninvited all that well but I couldn't thank him enough before he ran off.

If society collapses, you need to be ready for the worst but you'll also see many more people rise to the occasion. The reality is that it takes over an acre per person of a well established farm to receive enough calories to survive indefinitely. You can survive for a period of time independently but in the long term, 99% of us will need to reintegrate with society to survive following a major calamity.

Justin,

Just shrug it off man. I love the BPL community but thick skin is occasionally required.

v/r

Ian

Edited by IDBLOOM on 10/07/2013 10:01:10 MDT.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: It's the end of the world as we know it on 10/07/2013 11:14:08 MDT Print View

Thanks Ian, but there is no problem, i didn't take it personally (well, i did for a handful of seconds or so). I can understand people's questioning, skepticism, or lack of tolerance with such topics. If i didn't have the experiences that i have had, i would probably be in a similar boat. But, i figured i probably have said all i can say about the specific topic of full collapse and why, and there's no point in continuing about it.

I may talk some more about survival gear, but in context of itself only and not in a broader context.



"and i feel fine..."

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/07/2013 14:31:05 MDT Print View

Justin,
just as you feel that you need to pass on the messages aliens are giving to you (yes you are special, and so is everyone else...) I, as a skeptic, feel the need to tell everyone that no, that is just wishful thinking...
Forever some individuals have wanted to be special and feel that they know something others don't.
Same had God talking to them other animals and other still "aliens" .However simply going by historical evidence no matter what secret society/cult one belongs to or who talks to you, in your head ,there is no secret knowledge...

Delmar O'Donnell
(Bolster)

Locale: Between Jacinto & Gorgonio
Can the thread be saved? on 10/07/2013 15:19:48 MDT Print View

So has this thread gotten completely away from the OP questions (bag, volume, items), and we're down to personal philosophies and taking shots at each other? Ah well, it was interesting while it lasted.

Edited by Bolster on 10/07/2013 15:20:38 MDT.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Can the thread be saved? on 10/07/2013 15:44:52 MDT Print View

Some of us live in parts of California where the main catastrophic concern is The Big One (a major earthquake), so the only realistic scenario that we prepare for is to have major metropolitan population centers leveled and we would be "on our own" for a period of three to seven days. Then, the resources needed would be very basic, like clean water.

A study was done some years ago at the time of the Loma Prieta Earthquake. It was determined that in the event of another big catastrophe, family people are most likely to want to "hunker down" at their own home or whatever is left of it. Single males are most likely to "take to the hills" and leave the area.

--B.G.--

Rick M
(rmjapan) - F

Locale: Tokyo, Japan
Re: Can the thread be saved? on 10/07/2013 16:25:42 MDT Print View

Doubt it because the whole concept is ludicrous in any practical sense. Why? Because the SOP for any local, regional natural disaster is to shelter in place until help arrives. If your "place" is destroyed or too dangerous to remain in, you evacuate to the safest, nearest designated evacuation center. Only an idiot would pack off into the wilderness to try and live UNSUPPORTED for more than a few days. And what would you do if its the dead of Winter and you don't live in a mild year-around climate?

For disasters on a larger continental or global scale, natural or man-made, without electric power the refrigeration and transport systems are broken leading to mass starvation that will kill off the majority of the urban populations within 30 days. Illness and disease will get most of the rest. Only a hardy few will make it thru the first year. And if the Fukushima incident has taught us anything, its that a sudden complete/long term power failure will inevitably leave longterm environmental radiation consequences for anyone left.

Edited by rmjapan on 10/07/2013 16:29:31 MDT.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Can the thread be saved? on 10/07/2013 16:28:01 MDT Print View

The trick is to go cannibal early and never look back.

John S.
(jshann) - F
Re: Re: Re: Can the thread be saved? on 10/07/2013 16:37:04 MDT Print View

Go Hannibal, go cannibal.

Edited by jshann on 10/07/2013 16:37:56 MDT.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Can the thread be saved? on 10/07/2013 16:43:04 MDT Print View

"If your "place" is destroyed or too dangerous to remain in, you evacuate to the safest, nearest designated evacuation center. Only an idiot would pack off into the wilderness to try and live UNSUPPORTED for more than a few days."

Living in the wilderness is precisely what 10k's of Cambodians did to survive the Khmer Rouge. I heard about the deep fried tarantulas before I traveled over there but after a little research, learned that this wasn't a traditional Khmer dish prior to the refugees having to expand their diet in order to survive.

Depending on which numbers you believe, there have been between 2.5 and 4 million people murdered ala genocide in my lifetime.

robert van putten
(Bawana) - F

Locale: Planet Bob
"get-me-home" not "bug-out" on 10/07/2013 18:21:07 MDT Print View

Heh, here’s a gear tip for all you survivalist types looking to rebuild the planet after the fall of civilization;
Don’t forget a watch that winds up instead of uses batteries!

Kinda getting hard to find, not especially accurate or durable, but will last a very long time if well cared for.
I’ve always hated wrist watches and don’t own one to this day, and in the past have actually used a cheap wind up pocket watch backpacking. I carried it rubber banded into a plastic bag, buttoned into a shirt pocket.
Odd how I never use a watch in my day to day life but really value one for pacing myself when backpacking.

In our humble cottage we have my I dunno how-many-times-great-grandfathers wind up pendulum clock, which was one of his wedding gifts. It dates to 1885 and still works great. I also inherited a century old Elgin pocket watch which still works well enough. So, when ( if ) the lights go out at least I’ll still be able to tell time!

My wife and I live on a somewhat remote off grid homestead we’ve built ourselves in the hills of Washington state. We’re used to this life, no running water, butchering all our own meat, heating with only firewood and just finished building a root cellar.
I’m a gun nut given to casting my own bullets and loading my own ammo and my wife tends to hoard food as I do guns and ammo.
So I imagine we will be somewhat better off than most should the grid ever go down. In fact, such an event hardly bothers me at all, provided in is not permanent ( But of course I hold no fantasies about what life would be like after a true civilization-ending event ).

Thus, the idea for me is not to “bug out” but rather to “get home”!
So my concern is with “get-me-home” bags as opposed to “bug-out” bags, much less “Inch Bags” ( I’m-Never-Coming-Home bag, for those truly displaced after the End Of The World As We Know It. ).
At home I have a dwelling with two foot thick bullet proof walls, solar power system, well and gravity feed cistern, sufficient food for several years, enough weapons to equip a decent little militia and what-not. Thus my survival plan is to simply go home.

Now and then I do travel a bit for work, often to somewhat out of the way places. I always try to camp when I’m working jobs like that, as it saves me the cost of motels. I’m always carrying a backpack of supplies in my car as I never know when I’ll be called away from my cozy desk job to do emergency field work.

More to the point of this thread, I have recently given thought to putting together a UL or at least close to UL “Get-Me-Home” bag, as it seems to me that UL thru-hiker type equipment and tactics ( stealth camping, rising early and getting a fast start, then stopping for breakfast some time later, and stopping to cook dinner early, then camping some miles away, etc…) fit well with the “get-me-home” bag requirement and mission.

This kit is currently a work in progress due to limited funds and time but so far my list look sorta like this –

Backpack –
Homemade along the lines of Ray Jardines design, of ordinary nylon. Hopefully this winters project!

Shelter –
Homemade polycryo tarp, walmart aluminum stakes, 3mm nylon cordset, “All weather sportsman’s blanket” for ground cloth.

Sleeping –
Homemade large rectangular quilt or “quillow”, with nylon cover, 1” of quilt batting, fleece lining and netting sewn to the top. These quilts I have already made.
Walmart blue foam pad, probably cut down a bit.

Cooking –
Walmart grease pot ( the new taller ones with handle) with wire bail added, Pepsi can stove, hardware cloth stand, foil wind screen, Coghlans spoon, empty cottage cheese container with lid for bowl/cup/leftovers container. These kits I have already made.

Clothing-
This is where I get a little heavy, as day to day we typically wear close to 100% cotton, not particularly appropriate to the environment through which we may be traveling and may not be well suited to a long walk home.

Dri Ducks rain gear
Surplus 65/35 poly cotton BDU trousers
Fleece vest from Bi-mart
Uniqlo “heat tech” thermal underwear bottoms and long sleeve top,
Light colored long sleeved synthetic dress shirt, probably something from Good Will.
Swiss surplus wool gaiters

Currently I have a ratty old Walmart down parka that I carry in my car so I’d probably toss that in as well.

Tools N’ Stuff-

Compass
Knife - small sheath knife but possibly SAK one hand Trekker?
Fire starters, Bic, matches
Sewing kit, duct tape
Etc…

Well, you get the idea!~ We already carry first aid kits and tools of various sorts in our cars, and I don’t pack flashlights in emergency kits because they don’t do well in long term storage. Instead I pack a few light sticks.
I always pack a little water in our cars, about 1/2 gallon, in mylar pouches. These withstand repeated freeze/thaw cycles without injury, and in the warmer months add more in whatever containers are handy.

These kits should be in the low teens without food and water, and just over twenty pounds with, and hopefully not to expensive.
Anyway, that’s just my take on it

Edited by Bawana on 10/07/2013 18:23:30 MDT.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/07/2013 19:39:29 MDT Print View

Anyone read Cormac McCarthy's The Road?
I loved how the people that built the bunker and prepared for everything apparently never made it to their bunker....

_____________________________

Aliens, guns, suicide, raingear, Trishield Grid....

But nobody mentions cold, hard CASH?

Access to cash in emergencies can never hurt. I'm not talking some far-fetched global-civilization-ending-crawling-from-our-bunkers and rebuilding the free world scenario, but a simple natural or man made disaster and subsequent loss of power for a few days to a couple months.

In the wise words of the Wu Tang Clan (more specifically Method Man on the hook):

Cash Rules Everything Around Me
C.R.E.A.M. get the money
Dollar dollar bill y'all

___________________________


I suppose guns and bullets certainly couldn't hurt in the long term.
I remember a time years ago when a transformer blew and took out power to a huge area in my neighborhood. It only took 4 hours before people tried to loot the local Rite Aid.

I vividly remember living in Los Angeles during the riots. Every day would end with a brilliant sunset produced by the smoke of all the fires burning. Even grandmas were breaking store windows to steal diapers, baby formula, and children's cloths.

As for Justin's vision of a heavenly future where all humans are happy and live in harmony on Earth....ummm.
You have more faith in humans than I do, friend.

Here's a Cormac McCarthy (from The Crossing) quote to ponder:

"He said that while one would like to say that God will punish those who do such things and that people often speak in just this way it was his experience that God could not be spoken for and that men with wicked histories often enjoyed lives of comfort and that they died in peace and were buried with honor. He said that it was a mistake to expect too much of justice in this world. He said that the notion that evil is seldom rewarded was greatly overspoken for if there were no advantage to it then men would shun it and how could virtue then be attached to its repudiation?"

Roger Dodger
(RogerDodger) - F

Locale: Wess Siide
Re: Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/07/2013 23:10:56 MDT Print View

reply to Franco Darioli

When the city, state, federal police fail, there will be initial chaos by the troublemakers who were deterred by the risk of getting caught.

after 2 weeks (or less) of chaos, and lost hope for official forces to restore order, neighborhood will get together and self-patrol.

neighborhoods that already had a close community, will be more organized and much sooner, such as small towns, gated communities with Neighborhood watch programs, old neighborhoods where everyone knows each other down the street.

It's good to generally be polite and friendly to your closest 5 neighbors. In times of trouble, neighbors depend on each other.

After a while though, those that want to leave will leave. Those that stay will form a local militia and protect a perimeter. Similar to what gangsters in "bad neighborhoods" already have formed in ways of drug territories that they protect. Also similar to what the Korean liquor store owners did to protect their shops in the 1990s Rodney King riot.

You already suspect which of your neighbors is the "quiet one," the other neighbor with all those "Marines vet" car stickers and tattoos, and the old man down the street who was a WWII vet. All these guys are sitting on an arsenal at home. Be nice to them, they have potential to be a force for good. Sorry San Francisco, you can protect your neighborhood by throwing qinoa on your attackers :) so the pigeons can protect you.

David Gardner
(GardnerOutdoorLD) - M

Locale: Northern California
Re: Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/08/2013 10:04:36 MDT Print View

My main worry in a survival scenario is other humans, as in "The Road."

My kit:

Gossamer Gear G4 pack
Feathered Friends Winter Wren sleeping bag
Neoair UL mattress
Montbell hoody down jacket
Gore-Tex bivvy bag
Polycro tarp/tent
Tyvek body suit
Dry Duck poncho
Rain shell and pants
Thick thermax sweats
Bike shorts (no chamois) for hiking
Long-sleeved sun shirt
Broad-brimmed hat
Sunglasses
Mini binoculars
Micro LED headlamp with extra batteries
Aqua Mira
Sawyer mini water filter
First aid kit (bandages, neosporin, moleskin, 2 ace bandages, aspirin
Chouinard expedition sewing kit
24" machete
GOLD Gear Fanatic Solo Ti cook kit with 8 oz alcohol & 14 Esbits (also burns wood)
3 kinds of fire starters (vaseline soaked cotton balls, wood chips, magnesium block)
2 mini-Bic lighters
Sparking steel with striker
Hand-cranked flashlight/AM/FM radio/cell phone charger
Cell phone with battery case (4 days continuous use)
Hiking shoes
Thin socks (2 pair)
Thick socks (1 pair)
Gold & silver coins
Hanging bear bag
7 days hi-calorie no-cook survival rations
2 half-quart water bottles
10 oz Glenlivet
1 oz high-grade 420 with rolling papers
Toiletries kit (tooth brush, floss, chapstick, sunscreen, tweezers)
Compass
Signaling mirror
Mini Victorinox knife with scissors
Gerber mini "leatherman" tool
Reading glasses
100' paracord
10' nylon sail repair tape
Heckler & Koch HK 91 7.62 mm NATO with 3 30-round mags, sling, bayonet & 200 rounds
Glock 19 9mm pistol with 3 14-round mags in concealed carry hip pack & 200 rounds

Total weight without guns = 20 lbs.
Guns & ammo = 30.4 lbs

My wife's kit is essentially the same, but with a Ruger 10/22 rifle & 1000 rounds and no pistol.

Edited by GardnerOutdoorLD on 10/09/2013 01:18:04 MDT.

robert van putten
(Bawana) - F

Locale: Planet Bob
tools on 10/08/2013 12:26:16 MDT Print View

Good list David.

Might want to give that gerber saw a workout though, and see if it can be relied upon.
I gave one of those gerber saws that retract the blade into the handle to my wife and she busted the blade in one month work about our homestead. Replaced it with a Fiskars folding saw which is still going strong in it's second year, and it has been very heavily used as we use it for construction as well as wood craft.

Not sure I like the Fiskars hatchet though,as it has a plastic handle? I've seen too many of those break. My favorite hatchet ( and my wife and I must have ten of 'em ) is the all steel Estwing. Balance seems a bit off at first, but you get used to it, and it will never break no mater what you do to it. grab it up in both hands and chop through the wall of your house if you need to, it can take the abuse. The blade is very fine and is my favorite tool for saddle notching logs.

Heh, nice rifle the HK 91.
Once upon a time about twenty years ago I went backpacking with a FAL and three 20 round mags, one in the gun, and one in each side pocket of my backpack. On that trip my wife carried a bolt action .22 rimfire.

The trip was up high and dry, so we also needed to carry all our water...

I swear, that dang FAL just about pulled my arms out of my sockets by the end of that trip! Just to dang heavy for me to hump the boonies with! So despite the fact that I did love that rifle and the caliber, I switched to 7.62x39, first in an AK, then and SKS.

I found the AK carried well and certainly worked well, but even just three 30 round mags in a chest pouch were still a bit awkward and heavy. Switching to twenty round mags helped, but reduced my capacity.

Now the SKS was the most convenient to tote of all. A chest pouch ( the so called Chinese Bra ) of 200 rounds on stripper clips can actually be worn with a backpack with reasonable comfort!

That chest pouch with 200 rounds of 7.62x39 on strippers weighs right about eight pounds fully loaded, so I kinda think your weights are rather low!

Every year for about a decade I took my winters meat with an SKS, so I got real good at sneaking through the woods a blowing the head offa something with it, and I used one at several Appleseed shoots, so I felt quite confident with this setup.

But ya know, I'd not want to be without a good .22 rimfire rifle. My wife has a marlin 60 with a Simmons scope and sling, and I made the best shot I ever did on game with that rifle, an off hand shot at a turkeys neck at a full fifty yards.

I reckon the .22 rifle should wear iron sights and a scope and sling.

But the fact is a few years back I went and sold all my AK and SKSs, and my only semiauto rifles now are .22s. I hunt with lever action rifles these days!

My wife never did handle a rifle bigger than a .22 al that well, and I reckon she can be a terror with one if she wanted to despite the tiny caliber. lying prone, hidden under a bush she can spit five fast rounds into a bandits face at 75 yards in two seconds time with her pet Marlin.

So I reckon if I ever had to head out on foot the only long arm taken would be a .22.

Anyway, I believe 200 rounds of .308 is about 10.5 pounds ( 150 grain bullet ), 200 rounds of 115 grain 9mm has got to be six pounds and your HK has got to be about nine pounds dry? Might want to check those weights!

Edited by Bawana on 10/08/2013 12:28:31 MDT.

Dean F.
(acrosome) - MLife

Locale: Back in the Front Range
Re: "get-me-home" not "bug-out" on 10/08/2013 13:13:20 MDT Print View

@ Robert van Putten-

And your address is...?

robert van putten
(Bawana) - F

Locale: Planet Bob
you and everyone else - on 10/08/2013 13:44:58 MDT Print View

It's amazing how many relatives say "if the stuff hits the fan we'll all just go to Bobs house!"

So we built a bunk house - No kidding. Had to have a place to put all the bodies, not to mention stage supplies. Not that I think it will ever come to this, so it serves as a combination guest cabin / garage / root cellar for now.

Fact is, our place is pretty durn hard to get to when the winter snows close the roads.
I love it, its like having a moat for six months out of the year. The first time my one neighbor on this mountain drives his car on up past our homestead in the spring I always complain about the traffic!

Ben Crocker
(alexdrewreed) - M

Locale: Kentucky
Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/08/2013 13:57:21 MDT Print View

Don't shoot when I come by once it all hits the fan. I'll be the guy with the little cuben backpack and a bottle of bourbon.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
boom sticks on 10/08/2013 13:58:18 MDT Print View

Funny that will all the sidearms and rifles on my wish list, 1/3 of them are .22s.

I wish Springfield still made the .22/.410 M6 Scout. I've seen a few for sale on line but they're hard to find under $400. Someday.

I'll eventually convert my son's .22lr Cricket to a pack rifle using the PRK kit http://rutalocura.com/PRK.html. Probably knock this out before spring.

I checked out the 10/22 takedown. It was still pretty bulky when broken down and didn't seem to be worth the effort. Long term plan is to build one from Tactical Solution components after I buy a Scout.

I've heard too many complaints about the AR-7 to give it serious consideration even though I like the design.

Stepping up to 5.56 / .223, I really want to like the mini-14 but like the AR-7, performance reviews are spotty.

David Gardner
(GardnerOutdoorLD) - M

Locale: Northern California
Re: tools on 10/08/2013 14:09:03 MDT Print View

The Gerber saw is a locking folder. 5" blade with 6.5" handle, 3.1 oz. Saws through a fir 2x4 in about 30 seconds.
saw

I use a military-style sling to carry the HK91 in front. Way to heavy to carry all day.

You are right about my gun weights being low. I just weighed everything and got the following:

HK 91 with sling & three 30 rd mags = 13.3 lbs.
200 rds 7.62 NATO = 10.5 lbs.
Glock 19 with three 14 rd mags = 1.7 lbs.
200 rds 9mm = 4.9 lbs.

Total = 30.4 lbs.

I'll edit my original post.

Edited by GardnerOutdoorLD on 10/08/2013 14:11:53 MDT.

robert van putten
(Bawana) - F

Locale: Planet Bob
different saw on 10/08/2013 14:39:07 MDT Print View

Oh, the saw my wife managed to mangle was one of these where the blade slides out. The steel seemed awful brittle -

saw

robert van putten
(Bawana) - F

Locale: Planet Bob
not to worry on 10/08/2013 14:48:31 MDT Print View

Ben, now why would I shoot someone carrying a bottle of bourbon? :)

Probably give ya a place to crash for the night and send ya on yer way with a pack full of food if I could at all afford to.

I've always wanted an accurate .22 handgun, say a Ruger Mk11 or similar, yet somehow never seem to be able to justify the purchase.

A good accurate .22 sidearm, a 30-30 carbine and I reckon a feller is all set.
But that's just me!

I have three thumb busters and a lever gun chambered for .44 special, I cast slugs and reload for that caliber and have a pile of powder and primers. So I reckon that's my long term solution to keep banging away around the homestead. Handles all the shooting I figure on needing.

But traveling on foot? No more than a .22 rifle and maybe a Glock 9mm.
I have a Glock 26 that I often carry backpacking, not to mention to work and about town. Not a bad compromise between weight and shoot-ability

Tim Zen
(asdzxc57) - F

Locale: MI
Re: Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/08/2013 15:42:58 MDT Print View

Craig -- I agree, "The Road" is how I envision what would happen if the place falls apart. There is not enough game to feed 300 million people, so it will be soylent green time.

As to currency, I think booze, pills, smokes and paper-porn (no more youtube) will be pretty useful for barter.

On the realistic side, I carry some emergency bags. One is for the car in the winter in case we get trapped. The other is for air travel in case we get stuck in the airport. Other than that, I will shelter in-place.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/08/2013 16:49:50 MDT Print View

"There is not enough game to feed 300 million people, so it will be soylent green time. "

Except that amount would dwindle very fast in just a month.

David Gardner
(GardnerOutdoorLD) - M

Locale: Northern California
Re: Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/08/2013 16:49:53 MDT Print View

.22 LR, 30/30, .44 special, .223/5.56 mm NATO are useful, but for the soylent green/zombie apocalypse scenario I want a round that can drop big game or a bad guy at 300 yds. Also, the .308/7.62 NATO round (like the .223/5.56 NATO and 9mm), being military, is relatively abundant and cheap, with a reasonable chance of being scrounged or scavenged after everything falls apart.

robert van putten
(Bawana) - F

Locale: Planet Bob
range on 10/08/2013 18:03:22 MDT Print View

Heh, I dunno about 308 being "cheap" these days!

300 yards is a stretch fer me, but I can certainly drop a guy or a deer at 200 yards with one of my 30-30s easily enough, - If they are standing still and I can see them! - And that's good enough for me.
I don't believe I've ever shot any game past 50 yards. My property is 1/2 mile long but it is so heavily forested and rugged that the best shooting range I can come up with is 75 yards, and that's shooting down part of my driveway!

I like the idea of being able to engage out to 500 yards, and any rack grade military rifle should be able to do that in the hands of a good shooter. I do love a good semi-auto rifle. Ya get all snug in the sling and in a good prone position, wiggle yer butt to find yer NPOA, and anything that wanders into your zone of fire gets nailed. Big Time. One hand supports the front of the rifle, the sling pulls it snug into yer shoulder and all yer right hand does is squeeze that trigger nice and easy, and reload now and then!

My wife and I recently watched a movie called "Jack Reacher" with Tom Cruse.
In one scene at a shooting range he is all snugged up to a Remington 700 all wrapped up in the sling and rolls into a shooting position. My wife really got a kick out of that scene and laughed "I know how to do that!"
We do enjoy long range shooting and the short range reduced scale target work done at Appleseed shoots. It's allot of fun.

But realistically, I'm never going to do that "for real". I'd never shoot game at such extended range. I can't see that far in the rugged hills I live in, and how the heck could a felller justify shooting someone at 400 yards? How could you call that self defense?
How could you prove that in court? After all, most emergencies and disasters are only temporary, and the rule of law will be reasserted.

Maybe if your position is taking fire from that distance - But that's not likely going to happen. Someone wants to loot yer place, rob or rape you, they need to be up close and personal to do it. I reckon self defense is a close range kinda thing.

Also, I don't have a militia at my back, with everyone taking care of there designated fire zones, with resupply, medivac and all that.

If I'm defending my homestead I'll take to the forest around me. I see or hear the bandits coming, we grab our rifles ( always loaded ) and head out the back door at a run!
Work my way in, select a shot, kill a bandit, and vamoose. Flank, work back into range, and kill again with a single shot. I "still hunt" much like this, and nobody knows the rugged hills around my place like I do. I could keep this up all day and drop any number if I had to.
It would be folly to stay in one place and let yerself get pinned down. Nobody has all the other fire zones covered so you'll get flanked and killed, or maybe burned out. So, for one man on his own, mobility is the key.
I've tried humping the boonies with a pack and a FAL, so I know it ain't for me.
But I know I can run like heck with a 30-30 carbine and 60 rounds in my pockets, and ain't nobody gonna be able to run me to ground or outflank me.

So, the six pound 30-30 carbine, which is inexpensive, light, short and handy, easily reloaded on the run, no magazines to mess with and truly devastating out to a few hundred yards ( ever see the wounds one makes on a deer? Ugh! ) is fine for me.

Heh, maybe I'm just to old to carry much more weight?

Not that a semi isn't also good at short range though! I used to dearly love my AKs and reckoned one was shorter, handier and easier to shoot than a 12 gauge shotgun, which is often touted as the very best thang for home defense, has up to 30 rounds on board, has great penetration, has legendary reliability and used to be pretty cheap to buy to boot!

But anyway, I don;t pack weapons in my "get-home" bags. My wife and I carry pistols day in and day out, so we'll just make do with those for self defense. A .22 rifle for foraging is very tempting ( they never fail to fill the pot! ), but an extra 5 pounds of food instead makes more sense in most situations.
Bugging out is a different story though.

Ozzy McKinney
(PorcupinePhobia) - F

Locale: PNW
Mandarin on 10/08/2013 18:11:13 MDT Print View

Maybe this is defeatist, but if society collapses in the US in my lifetime, I will most likely need little more than a workable knowledge of the Chinese language.

I really do want to learn to hunt someday. None of my friends or family are hunters or gun owners so I don't have a good sense of gun selection.

Until then I'll have to rely on my good looks and charm. So basically I'm screwed.

robert van putten
(Bawana) - F

Locale: Planet Bob
Nah on 10/08/2013 18:33:05 MDT Print View

No yer not! You already know about backpacking, and that puts you ahead of the majority of the population!

Most folk will be looking like this -

refugee

And you'll be looking like this -

backpacker

That counts for something, eh?

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/08/2013 18:38:43 MDT Print View

Having a bug out bag helps people in a societal collapse exactly like having a ccw and a handgun helped people in the Aurora shooting.

It provides a safe place for people prone to bugging out and fantasizing, but in reality does little when needed most.

David Gardner
(GardnerOutdoorLD) - M

Locale: Northern California
Re: Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/08/2013 18:55:01 MDT Print View

Really? I was not aware that anyone at Aurora had a CCW or handgun, but I'm open to being educated.

My philosophy is that you can't go wrong being prepared. At least then you have options. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

At any rate, all the things on my list get regular use, they're not just purchased and stashed away. Some for camping, some for hunting, some for sport. So it's just a matter of keeping them all in one place, just in case.

That being said, "bug out bag" may be a misnomer in my case. It's more of a disaster preparedness package. Here in earthquake land we're told we should plan on being self-sufficient for at least 72 hours if The Big One hits. Whatever the scenario, my first plan is to shelter in place unless that becomes untenable. Then I want to be able to move, and quickly.

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
In reality, use your brain. on 10/08/2013 19:04:38 MDT Print View

I'm also a skeptic. I can only see a "bug out bag" being useful in your vehicle.

In my house right now, which is stocked by the expertise and foresight of a yoga teacher and a music theory professor (my parents), there's probably a good 2 weeks of supplies, first aid, and food. Easily. That seems to vastly out-do anything I'd put in a bug-out bag.

I see it as kind of an excuse to buy more stuff.

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/08/2013 19:27:00 MDT Print View

Ever thought how and why hobos survive ?
It's because they are street smart.

Just remember that Stallone (Rambo) survived because he wrote the script...

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/08/2013 19:34:50 MDT Print View

Lots of dried beans.
;)

Thaddaeus Wharton
(Thadjw) - MLife
Re: on 10/09/2013 00:52:21 MDT Print View

I'm an active Air Force reservist officer and work in Space Situational Awareness (SSA) satellite systems. Space Wx in particular. Family members work in power grid consulting fields. Grid highly, highly unlikely to be brought down significantly by any solar event. Esp this cycle. US Govt could collapse in slow motion train wreck from too much debt... My one concern and I hope we are all cooperating to avoid this. Stow water and some food in case anything bad happens. We all should be somewhat prepared so we don't contribute to panic bc of lack of basic essentials. Pack enough to get you and yours to safety if need arises. Be able to move and protect yourself.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: on 10/09/2013 00:59:01 MDT Print View

I just hope that we avoid the total chaos that would occur if we don't end the confusion over 10-bit GPS week codes versus 13-bit GPS week codes.

Oh, the horror!

--B.G.--

David Gardner
(GardnerOutdoorLD) - M

Locale: Northern California
Re: In reality, use your brain. on 10/09/2013 01:09:10 MDT Print View

"I can only see a "bug out bag" being useful in your vehicle."

That's where mine is. Except the HK91.

"I see it as kind of an excuse to buy more stuff."

There's certainly a lot of cool stuff to buy, and I'll admit to being a gearhead. But virtually everything in a decent survival/emergency/disaster kit is items which I think most of us here on BPL already have and use for other things (camping, hunting, sports). The only item in my kit which I bought specifically for it is the crank-powered AM/FM radio/cell phone charger/flashlight. Just makes sense to keep it all together in one place where it can serve as an emergency kit or "bug out bag" or whatever it's called.

Here in earthquake country the "official" advice is to be prepared to be self-sufficient for at least 72 hours. Just keeping some food and fuel with our camping gear is probably all it takes for most of us.

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/09/2013 01:37:42 MDT Print View

David,
no offence but you are obviously not one of the chosen ones.
If you knew the real impact of the incoming Solar Max* (any time now) you would not flippantly talk about a 72 hour survival.
I can't disclose any more information right now but it has all been verified by myself and me.

*feel free to change Solar Max with any other buz term that turns you on.

Later...
Well I watched The Road, full movie, on You Tube.
Thanks guys.
Very powerful imagery , touching narrative.
Loads of questions came to mind , for example :
Are we the good guys ?
Who is we ?

But just to bring the thread back to survival gear :
How much more butane is inside a full size Bic compered to the Mini ?
How long does a can of Coke keep its fizz?
but most of all, triggered but the first dramatic scene of father and son pushing that trolley , where can one find a shopping trolley like that , you know one without a wonky wheel ?

Edited by Franco on 10/09/2013 04:16:35 MDT.

Lowell Mills
(FarmHand357) - F
Re: Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/09/2013 08:46:33 MDT Print View

It's my understanding that the Aurora shooter specifically passed up several nearby theaters because they did not explicitly ban firearms by law-abiding patrons.

He chose one that did with a clearly labelled sign outside. That's why no citizens even had a chance to defend themselves with firearms, which they successfully do in this country between 800,000 and 2 million times per year (depending on who's counting). Oftentimes, the armed good guy stops a crime without ever having to fire a shot.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: on 10/09/2013 08:56:40 MDT Print View

I said i would not address this specific issue further, but i feel some things need to be cleared up.

Thaddeus, how highly unlikely?

Truth is, scientifically speaking, we cannot accurately predict the Sun's activity ahead of time (we do not fully understand how the sun works and there are too many variables we don't know about), we can only say something like, "well so far in this Solar Max cycle, the Sun has been producing less Sunspots than other Solar Max cycles and so it will probably be weaker throughout the cycle."

However, number of average sunspots do not equal a nice, neat correlation to size of Earth directed CME's necessarily in a singular sense. All it takes is one really large one from one Sunspot. The Sun is very much capable of producing that at any time during any Solar Maximum. There was a good sized one produced last week or so, and red auroras visible down to around 45 degrees latitudes. Red auroras, especially at those latitudes, are somewhat rare.

In short, the Sun scientifically speaking is a wild card, and we have no way of accurately predicting it's specific behavior from that perspective. It's not like terrestrial weather, which we can sort of predict accurately ahead of time (most times). As far as a large CME knocking out most of the electrical grid system in this country, there seems to be dissenting opinions among the experts and researchers.

Some point out the Quebec event was not due to transformers over heating/frying, but rather seven relays tripping almost at once. However, the Solar event that preceded the Quebec outage wasn't even close to the strength of a Carrington event. The Sun can produce flares and CME's stronger than the Carrington. It's sort of like comparing a 6. mag earthquake to a 9 mag. Most areas don't have to worry too much about a 6, but even well prepared areas would have extensive damage in a 9.

Would you expect the electrical grid system to hold up to events as strong, or stronger than a Carrington like event?

Why not practically speaking, prepare for the worst and hope for the best or vice versa? Does that preparation cause any harm? That's all i'm advising. If someone takes anything from what i've talked about, please at least just take that, prepare your stuff well with a durable and holistically multlifaceted set up. I don't have compound or cult that i'm asking people to join, i'm not seeking money in any way, all i'm doing is passing along the information that was given to me because i want more good hearted, survival knowledgeable people to survive to help out in the future.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/09/2013 11:37:18 MDT Print View

Franco, I'm not sure if you are trying to goad me or not with your personally directed comments, but in the interest of clarity, I will briefly say I don't consider myself special. If you look at polls to do with experiences that either involve some kind of nonphysical or unexplainable experience, fairly significant percentages of people admit to having had such experiences. And I'm not talking beliefs but experience.

Perhaps the only major difference between myself and some of those others is that I have an unusual lack of social fear and concern with self image. It seems most either only talk about such things anonomysly, privately, or publicly in groups devoted to such non mainstream subjects.

Part of the reason people are hesitant to speak more openly about such things are because of treatment from people like yourself or because of fakes, cranks, swindlers who have given such subjects bad names.

Also, if I knew more details that would be helpful to individuals here,I would share more.

I feel compassion for you, because happy and whole people don't go around putting down or belittling others. I hope that someday you choose to align yourself more to that big Love that brings inner peace and joyous states and where one learns and applies the wisdom of interacting constructively and kindly with others.

Edited for spelling.

Edited by ArcturusBear on 10/09/2013 20:07:17 MDT.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Ka Blam! on 10/09/2013 12:43:45 MDT Print View

"I feel compassion for you, because happy and whole people don't go around putting down or belittling others. I hope that someday you choose to align yourself more to that big Love that brings inner peace and joyous states and where one learns and applies the wisdom of interacting constructively and kindly with others."

For the record I have no problem with busting chops and normally encourage juvenile behavior. Furthermore, I feel shorted when any given thread doesn't have at least one personal attack in it but DANG Justin.... I actually stood up and gave you a standing ovation. No offense to Franco.

...and there's the issue that I've had one too many cups of coffee and had the same reaction when I received my new stapler a few minutes ago so take it with a grain of salt.

Stay thirsty my friends.

Greg F
(GregF) - F

Locale: Canadian Rockies
Re: Bugging Out on 10/09/2013 13:02:44 MDT Print View

If society really went down and your life becomes being in an armed militia fighting for resources against other armed militias in a daily struggle to survive I am not sure if I am interested.

I prepare with 2 weeks or so of emergency food in the house plus a few 5 Gallon jugs of water. Beyond that I plan on staying put and waiting for civilization to be restored. If that happens to not be enough then so be it. Based on the small chance of it happening vs. the time and cost to prepare further than that I am okay with it.

I see the prepper mind set as one of diminishing returns, a small amount of effort and cost can get you through 99% or maybe more of what you are likely to ever face. To surrvive that 1 or .1% event will take mostly take a lot of luck regardless of how you prepare. Yes prepping might up your 10 year survival rate but if shit really hits the fan you are probably likely to dire regarless of what you do. Probably due to infection from a cut on your foot or from some food borne illness, or maybe just the regular flu, or maybe something more exciting like the plague. Disease not people are likely the biggest threat in terms of 10 year survival

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy" on 10/09/2013 13:14:54 MDT Print View

"...and there's the issue that I've had one too many cups of coffee and had the same reaction when I received my new stapler a few minutes ago so take it with a grain of salt."

Ian...I believe you have my stapler....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHHZBmF8mk4

stapler

Justin...very well spoken, sir. Kudos.

Matt

Edited by bigfoot2 on 10/09/2013 13:21:56 MDT.

Sharon J.
(squark) - F

Locale: SF Bay area
Ian's new stapler on 10/09/2013 13:29:31 MDT Print View

edit: Matt beat me to it

As far as emergencies go, earthquakes and fire are my biggest concerns. I haven't really thought out the latter, and the plan for the former mostly consists of keeping a first aid kit and a few gallons of water in the car and my apartment. Thanks for the reminder to update the kit.

Edited by squark on 10/09/2013 13:31:10 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Ian's new stapler on 10/09/2013 13:32:43 MDT Print View

I'm worried about a gamma ray burst

robert van putten
(Bawana) - F

Locale: Planet Bob
Survivalists or.... on 10/09/2013 13:56:00 MDT Print View

I don't consider myself a "prepper", I consider myself a homesteader.
We always get snowed in all winter, so of course we have food and what-not to last six months on hand ( or a year or two...) because hauling supplies up our mountain on snow shoes sucks.

We get a little snow in the winter...

snowy

We enjoy hunting and growing a garden, various shooting sports, making all sorts of stuff ourselves, yada, yada. You can think of it as "sustainable" or "survivalist" or whatever.
It's my chosen lifestyle that just happens to makes us relatively self sufficient and I guess enhances our survivability?

Heh, and y'all also fit into this category to a lesser or greater degree too, like it or not, because y'all are Backpackers. That means you know what to carry on yer back to sustain yerself for a while without any help at all, and you probably have all that nifty kinda gear lying about at home already.

The average Joe would have to resort to stuffing his kit into a cardboard box, plastic garbage bags or maybe a suitcase or two if he was lucky, but we all have backpacks.
A.J. ( Average Joe ) would need to pack a pile of bulky quilts or blankets stripped offa his bed, but we all have sleeping bags.
We know how to dress for being out of doors for days or even weeks at a time, can cook meals in tiny titanium cups ( or empty tin cans if push comes to shove ) over miniscule stoves or open fires, know how to site and setup various small portable shelters and so on down the line.
Some of us have quite respectable bush-craft skills and I bet everyone knows at least the basics.

So y'all are survivalists whether ya know it or not!

Which brings us full circle back to Survival-based UL kit and philosophy, which is what this thread is about!

Edited by Bawana on 10/09/2013 14:00:17 MDT.

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/09/2013 14:45:44 MDT Print View

I'm all for keeping an emergency kit for such things as fires or floods, however Justin hijacked the thread with his fear mongering imminent Solar Max disaster propaganda.
I see preppers the way I see religious cults, people that not only waste their lives preparing for something that is not going to happen but also actively recruit others to validate their own believes.
After all if there is a Solar Max (whatever that is or the consequences are) or other similar event, what happens when you are out hiking ?
Should we all give up doing that just in case ?
Do we have time to go home from work or shopping to pick up our kit ?

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/09/2013 15:24:35 MDT Print View

There is nothing wrong with disagreeing with something or someone, its the pot shots and getting personal, especially when self is not being attacked or even addressed, that myself and I'm assuming some others disagree with. There is a difference between impersonally disagreeing and what you have done.

I was hesitant to go into any of my experiences because I didn't want to create any unnecessary fear, especially if I'm wrong which I could be. Its very easy to doubt this kind of stuff even when it happens to self and over a span of time BUT I have come to trust more than not.

What would you do in my shoes if you really believed that something like this could happen in the near future? Would you try to warn others, or stay silent?

If I was as interested in evangelicalizng as you think, I would have started the thread myself.

I don't have anymore interest in talking anymore about full collapse and why I think its probable, but others keep bringing it up. Also, collapse in the U.S. economically is somewhat feasible Solar stuff inside. We are locked inside a debt based economy where the majority are in debt and the powers that be are corrupt and self serving. The only thing keeping the dollar afloat right now is its backing by oil, but if that changes the value will plummet and with all this debt among both individuals and government, well its likely a severe depression will occur.

Jason Elsworth
(jephoto) - M

Locale: New Zealand
Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/09/2013 17:26:04 MDT Print View

Living in an earthquake zone I have given this some thought. We are probably a bit better prepared than most, as we have about a months food and lots of hiking and camping gear. We have some stored water, but I want to put in some tanks for collecting rain water. Like others have already said I decided that at some point you start to hit rapidly diminishing returns. For some people prepping is a hobby - nothing wrong with that. I have a bit of a bug out set up in the car, but probably need to improve it.

For other reasons, longer term, I would like to live off grid and be semi food self sufficient. I have heard this referred to by some as doomsteading:).

Justin asked - What would you do in my shoes if you really believed that something like this could happen in the near future? Would you try to warn others, or stay silent?

I would stay silent. The track record of people being accurate in this area is not great to say the least:). I feel that these messages we can receive are generally intended for us alone and that we are co-creators of them. I would be more concerned about peak oil and economic collapse. I have recently become aware of how important the petro-currency issue is.

Overall the only certainty is uncertainty. By all means prepare, but it's easy to get a little paranoid, especially in the internet age. Fear is the mind killer.

Richard May
(richardmay)

Locale: Costa Rica
dissapointed on 10/09/2013 18:51:42 MDT Print View

I was disappointed with the OP in that there were no zombie discussions here. :(

Sorry, I didn't read the previous 4 pages in their entirety.

I think that if the world goes bat-shit-crazy it's going to be the more mundane things that enable the continuation of humanity.

Those who are better equipped to create bonds and caring social structures are the ones most likely to survive because of their ability to contribute to a group. I'm surprised by the 'f___K you, I got mine' attitude put out by so many preppers. But that may just be my stereotype.

BTW, The Walking Dead starts on Sunday! :D

E2A: instead of debating why, how or if bat-shit-crazy will happen let's get over semantics to the fun stuff. I just call it bat-shit-crazy, no matter the cause. I think it's a fun exercise but don't seriously think it will ever happen.

Edited by richardmay on 10/09/2013 19:10:51 MDT.

Max Dilthey
(mdilthey) - M

Locale: MaxTheCyclist.com
Re: Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/09/2013 19:37:05 MDT Print View

>>"If you knew the real impact of the incoming Solar Max* (any time now) you would not flippantly talk about a 72 hour survival.
I can't disclose any more information right now but it has all been verified by myself and me.

*feel free to change Solar Max with any other buz term that turns you on."






Nope. This is turning me on just fine.

Edited by mdilthey on 10/09/2013 19:38:09 MDT.

Paul Magnanti
(PaulMags) - MLife

Locale: People's Republic of Boulder
Disaster preparedness on 10/09/2013 19:40:03 MDT Print View

With the recent floods in the Boulder area (and a friend who had to be evaced by helicopter from his home), my mind actually turned to disaster preparedness.

Not the "OMG! Zombies!" or "The USA is in a new civil war!" type preparedness, but more of the :

"Crap! The roads I travel on is under many inches of water and I am cut off" (this happened!)

OR

"The power is out for a few days and the sewer system is hosed" (happened to friends).

I actually wrote this article:
http://www.pmags.com/outdoor-gear-and-disaster-preparedness

Typical for me, it is not really that "gear specific" but more "gear general".

I think the average outdoors person is (usually) prepared for the suggested 72 hours most disaster relief orgs suggest. I suspect Mrs Mags and I could be comfortable for a week (quite possibly two) with just the food we have on hand for camping/backpacking and in our normal pantry supplies.

Anyway, I am more concerned with being prepared for natural disasters (blizzards and now floods! :O ) than I am with societal collapse. But that's me! :) I know of people who hiked out from the cut-off areas with a backpack so I guess that is a bug-out bag of sorts.

Edited by PaulMags on 10/09/2013 19:57:23 MDT.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/09/2013 21:40:19 MDT Print View

First off, i love Office Space! It's one of my top 10 favorite comedies. Cue being stuck in traffic, "Damn it feels good to be a gangsta", classic! "Peter, you are a very bad man."

Jason writes, "I would be more concerned about peak oil and economic collapse. I have recently become aware of how important the petro-currency issue is."

I agree that those are major issues to look at as well. I touched on that some in my reply before yours.

Richard writes, "I'm surprised by the 'f___K you, I got mine' attitude put out by so many preppers. But that may just be my stereotype."

I've only perused such forums, and yeah i kind of got that sense too. I realized i didn't fit in at all with a lot of those groups or individuals because my mind set is much more "socialistic" or, "original Christian" type where i don't want to survive for survivals sake, but to help others and to rebuild a better system. Most people in the prepper scene or mindset seem to be most concerned with their families, friends, and themselves, which is understandable, but i've always been much more universal and impersonal in nature.

Which sort of relates to something Craig W. said in relation to me, which i just want to quickly address. I know my vision of a much improved humanity/civilization post collapse appears very Pollyanna'ish...but perhaps this may balance it some. Without a collapse of the current system, i have little to no faith in humanity improving much in any significant way. (Partly because the folks and groups with the most materialistic power and influence in this world, do not want to see such improvement or change and i believe to some extent they actively work against that, or the system as a whole has a limiting effect.)

Ok, back to gear:

Axes vs saws? I LOVE my Fiskars wood splitting axe--it works really well (when sharp at least) and yeah it's bit heavy, but not as heavy as a lot of wood splitting axes out there. Would one be better off with a good saw though? Use a good knife for battoning and everything else a good saw? Best DURABLE saws out there? Don't have to be UL.

Note on space blankets: I'm replacing all my mylar ones with the SOL emergency blankets, as the average report indicate they are significantly more durable. During extreme colds (i would probably be moving somewhat north if a collapse happened, to avoid the Nuclear reactors near here), i could see using one of these as a partial VBL, and it really boosting one's sleep system.

Clothing: All my baselayers are going to be Linen and Merino/synthetic blend to reduce stink, etc. Most other layers will be synthetic, with some down thrown in.

Course, soap will be important. Kiss my face, pure olive oil soap would be good to pack, or something like that. Maybe something a little more antiseptic with tea tree, thyme, neem, or the like. I sort of know the basics of making soap, but i would like to experiment when actually having some good stuff as a backup. Meanwhile, simple soaked ashes is a good cleanser/disinfectant provided it's not too concentrated.

Tick twister probably be a good idea.

Foods: That's a whole subject unto itself. The foods i'm packing fall into one of 3 main categories. Nutrient dense, calorie dense, and long lasting. Lot's of dried goat milk, dried "jerky" tempeh, amaranth/fruit bars (dehydrated and cooked amaranth mixed with figs, dates, and covered with coconut oil), lemon powder with coconut sugar and himalayan salt, dehydrated brown rice with a little dehydrated lentils, some good, food based vitamin/mineral complexes and some extra iron and co-enzyme form of b-12 supplements (will try to eat vegetarian as long as i can), lots of coconut oil, chia seeds, etc, etc.

Which leads me to, definitely will need some bear canisters and the like.

Have a foldable gerbers shovel for various important things. Like creating mini root cellars.

I don't know, there is a lot to list.

robert van putten
(Bawana) - F

Locale: Planet Bob
no bear barrel for me! on 10/10/2013 13:55:03 MDT Print View

Heh, why bother with a bear barrel? If a blackie comes yer way a-prowling, pop it in the heed with yer .22 rimfire a couple times, and hang him up in a tree by a stout stick shoved through the tendons of his back legs.

Peel the wrapper off, zip him open with a sharp knife, pull out the clock work that makes 'em tick, and there ya go, food for the tribe!

Of course you should also probably paw through the gunk that came outta him and save the heart and liver and kidneys at the very least. The intestines can also be sorted through and cleaned for sausage or for cordage. Need a new water bladder? You can use his! Don't have a big enough pot to cook for the whole crew? Use his stomach as a pot and cook by dropping in heated stones.

Be sure to keep and render any fat you cut offa him.
Now back to the hanging body. Slice of what you need and enjoy. Slice off long thingish bits and hang it over the nearest barbed wire fence, or any other handy drying rack. It helps to build a little smoky fire under the stuff too. Take him apart like it's high school biology class, muscle by muscle.

And when yer done with the hanging body boil the bones, let the pot cool and skim the fat offa that too.

You can make pemmican of the dried meat by pounding and shredding it, and adding the rendered fat, with any dried fruit or berries you may happen to have picked.
If you kept and cleaned some intestines, stuff 'em with yer pemmican mix and smoke it.

Man, running across a bear or other large animal in some horrible TEOTWAWKI ( The End Of The World As We Know It ) scenario is a real bonanza! That one animal could spell the difference of you living through the next winter or not!

Heh, 'course we need to be on the watch for some of our fellow humans who may be serving their fellow man in similar fashion...A feller could live a long time offa big fat lard assed human...

Oh! This brings up another interesting point!
We backpackers often cook in tiny titanium cups and the like. A Walmart grease pot is considered quite large. In a "bug-out" scenario I think one would be wise to instead take a one gallon cooking pail with lid.

one gallon capacity, 12.7 ounces and about 13 bucks -

pot

Your gonna be taking baths in that pot, washing clothes, and probably simmering up hearty stews from game and/or scrounged or locally purchased food.
You may be boiling water to purify it, and doing that in .8 liter pot is for the birds!

I reckon a single feller could get away with a two quart cooking pail, but bigger is better.

Anyway, in my "get-me-home" bag I don't see the need for heavy tools as a hatchet. I'll pack a small sheath knife or maybe a SAK O.H. Trekker, which is close to five ounces all by itself but is a heck of a fine shiv and has a dandy saw.

A "bug out bag" might be a different story though, especially if you don't have a specific destination in mind and may be making long term shelter for yourself.

Me, I'm familiar with saddle notching logs for small structures. To whack together a trappers tilt sufficient to spend the winter in, I'd need a few days time, my Estwing hatchet, and a Fiskars folding saw. The saw needs to be big enough to cut windows and doors into walls made of sorta-arm-thick poles.

A lean-to or debris hut could be made with little or no tools, but I'd prefer a trappers tilt for sorta - long term shelter.

As I wrote above, I'm real skitish when it comes to hatchets with plastic handles. I've found a few busted ones deep in the woods ( one on the Bowron Lakes circuit up in Canada ) where they were abandoned when the broke. Thay cannot be ( easily ) re-handled! Any garden verity hatchet can be re-handled ( you'll need enough of a shiv to carve a new handle ) and all metal hatchets like the Estwing can't break no matter how you abuse 'em.

I reckon I value my Estwing very highly, and would consider it an essential survival tool, right up there with a good .22 rifle.

Edited by Bawana on 10/10/2013 13:58:19 MDT.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: no bear barrel for me! on 10/10/2013 14:02:46 MDT Print View

Man, I can't do any of that cool stuff! If the world goes to hell, I'm gonna need help. Robert, can I be your bitch?

robert van putten
(Bawana) - F

Locale: Planet Bob
not even maybe on 10/10/2013 14:08:54 MDT Print View

Nope, I'm married, and my wife could probably whoop you.

But I'm sure you could do this stuff. Butchering animals is a bit messy the first time around, but like anything else you get good at it soon enough and it really is quite simple. I learned simply by doing.

Heh, when I went a-homeseading, I'd never built anything bigger than a book case. Before long, I'd built a cottage. I'd never killed big game before and didn't know what to do, but when that first deer fell to my rifle I figured it out fast enough.

I learned much by reading every book I could get my paws on, and made the rest up as I went along.

robert van putten
(Bawana) - F

Locale: Planet Bob
Rope! on 10/10/2013 14:12:24 MDT Print View

I forgot, a feller would need a few feet of substantial rope to hang a sizable animal.
It could be done with para cord I reckon, if you have a helper.

Hunters use fancy pulley systems to hang game, and I've finally hung one of those pulley things up in my wood shed. But for a long time I simply used a bit of whatever rope was handy. The wife lifted the animal, and I hauled up on the rope.

If all you have in yer pack is 1mm line, throw in 20 feet of para cord.

Dan Yeruski
(zelph) - MLife

Locale: www.bplite.com
Re: Rope! on 10/10/2013 15:29:46 MDT Print View

LOL, all you'll ever need is 72 hours worth of whatever you normally pack in your current backpack. Have one ready to go for the three seasons and one for winter. The worse that will happen is a monstrous depression and in that case you better have a years worth of emergency supplies stored in your apartment/house.

Most people don't have 72 hours worth ready on hand.

Preppers are extreme back to to the land dooms day mentality worry warts. If that fits your style more power to you all.

72 hours worth in a cheap k-mart pack is all that's needed.

In the Colorado floods, most if not all were within sight of rescue helicopters within 72 hours.

robert van putten
(Bawana) - F

Locale: Planet Bob
three days on 10/10/2013 16:32:30 MDT Print View

72 hours is certainly a good start, but a bit shy if you ask me. I lean to the "at least one year" camp, but of course I have to be well stocked going into every winter so this is just part of my life style.

I can't imagine most folk having less than three days of food at home.
It may be odds and ends, but I'm sure most folk have more than that! Don't they...?

My wife and I went shopping not long ago, and we got a bag of couscous because we've been making more and more of our own backpacking meals, many of which contain this stuff. So we got a 25 pound sack of the stuff. That's a substantial amount of food right there! We buy all the basics like unbleached flour, wheat flour, corn meal, sugar, oats, rice, and what-not in bulk, typically a hundred pounds at a time, and store it in five gallon pails below the kitchen counters. Hey, my wife likes to bake!
We may run outta one thing or another at any given time, but there will always be food of some sort there.
Doesn't everyone shop at restaurant supply stores and buy in bulk?

Yeah OK maybe not, but even when I was a bachelor in a studio apartment I had a sack of rice, flour, spaghetti, maybe a few pounds of potatoes, onions, and sufficient other staples to last some time. I woulda run outta beer, meat and eggs in a few days, but it wouldn't have been the end of the world.

Hurricane Katrina forced 800,000 people to live outside of their homes, most for quite some time. Right there's some 800,000 folk that might argue the "alls you need is 72 hours" thing (Heh, but the real lesson is probably Don't Live On A flood Plain!).

And sometimes it takes a bit longer to restore electrical power, depending upon where you live -

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2012/11/16/power-outages-after-hurricane-sandy-werent-unusually-long-after/

"The AP, with the assistance of Ventyx, a software company that helps utilities manage their grids, used U.S. Energy Department data to determine how many days it took to restore 95 percent of the peak number of customers left without power after major hurricanes since 2004, including Ivan, Katrina, Rita, Wilma, Ike and Irene.

After Sandy, New York utilities restored power to at least 95 percent of customers 13 days after the peak number of outages was reported. New Jersey reached that same level in 11 days and West Virginia in 10 days.

Hurricanes Katrina, Rita and Wilma in 2005 and Ike in 2008 all resulted in longer outages for customers in Louisiana, Texas, Mississippi and Florida.

The longest stretch to 95 percent restoration since 2004 was Louisiana after Hurricane Katrina, where local utilities had power restored to only three-quarters of their customers after 23 days before Hurricane Rita hit and caused additional outages.

Rita left Texas customers in the dark for 16 days; Katrina knocked out power to Mississippi customers for 15 days; Wilma and Ike knocked Florida and Texas out for 14 days each before power was restored to 95 percent of those who lost it, according to the federal data.

New York and New Jersey recovered far faster after last year's Hurricane Irene. It took seven days for New York to restore 95 percent of customers and six days for New Jersey. But the number of outages in each state was less than half than from Sandy.

The restoration target of 95 percent allowed the AP to compare responses to the largest number of recent storms using Energy Department data, and is considered by industry experts to provide a meaningful picture of the speed with which utilities restored service to the vast majority of customers.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: no bear barrel for me! on 10/10/2013 17:59:15 MDT Print View

Hi Robert thank you for all the info.

Re: bear stew etc, the thought definitely occurred to me. But then another thought occurred to me--that a lot of other people would have the same thought and I reckon I don't want any part in the extinction of black bears.

So I would try to stick to the much more populous deer, and to a lesser extent geese an turkeys.

robert van putten
(Bawana) - F

Locale: Planet Bob
the other white meat... on 10/10/2013 18:33:11 MDT Print View

Don't overlook squirrels and other small game, and in an emergency I reckon feral dogs and cats will be everywhere!

My wife and I even butchered a horse once. Man, talk about allot of meat!
Don't try to hang one of these, you do real big animals with 'em laying on its side.
We didn't even bother to dress the animal ( remove the clockwork ), just zipped down the spine with a sharp little knife, peeled the wrapper off and took the huge back strap, then peeled the hind leg. Flip, and do the other side.

There is so much good eating on a horse it ain't funny, and now all the horse slaughter houses have closed in the U.S., old or just unwanted horses are everywhere. I regularly get offered free horses, and they go for ridiculously low prices at auction.

If we slip into a terrible depression, don't overlook this source of meat! I know a few old timers that certainly et plenty of hoss the last go around!

But the best source of meat is to raise yer own. It isn't wise to count on game when failure means starvation for your family.
My wife and I used to raise rabbits-

rabbit

And Alpine milk goats - (Yes, we transported 'em in our car...)

goats

These animals were easy to feed on our 40 acre homestead and provided more than enough meat and milk for us.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: the other white meat... on 10/10/2013 18:56:01 MDT Print View

"And Alpine milk goats - (Yes, we transported 'em in our car...)"

How did you get them to buckle their seat belts?

--B.G.--

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: the other white meat... on 10/10/2013 19:18:22 MDT Print View

Good points Robert. I do admit i have a hard time with the thought of killing anything but fish, but i suppose i will have to get over that. When i was 8 years old, i saw a chipmunk about 75 feet away or so on a wood pile, and not really thinking too much, threw a baseball towards it but not thinking i would ever hit it. Well i did, and i cried for awhile as i felt so bad, and then gave it a solemn burial. I suppose the right thing would have been to make chipmunk stew, but the thought didn't occur to me at the time.

We have thought about getting a couple of milking goats. So far, we only have raised chickens and made a garden and grow some fruit trees, but we know we will have to leave--we live in a somewhat populous area, not too far from a major city. You and your wife are hard core--i have a lot of respect for the homesteading lifestyle and those that can actually make it work. Are you and Dale long lost brothers or something--i've heard he's got a pretty sustainable setup going on too.

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/10/2013 19:42:53 MDT Print View

vegetarians,read the above and eat your heart out !


BTW, lot of talk about food and none on water.
You can't filter water that you don't have.

Sharon J.
(squark) - F

Locale: SF Bay area
water on 10/10/2013 20:02:15 MDT Print View

good point on water. I only have a day or two's supply on hand. During the winter I can collect rain water, but during the summer the closest reliable water source is brackish. Anyone know how to do at-home desalination? Would I have to rig up some kind of distillery?

Delmar O'Donnell
(Bolster)

Locale: Between Jacinto & Gorgonio
Comments. on 10/10/2013 20:19:38 MDT Print View

I am really enjoying this thread because it is remaining pretty darned rational, given the topic and the extremes it usually invokes.

I've spent way too many hours on prepper forums, and prepping, so I confess to it. And I realize that UL Backpacking is a different pursuit, but there is definitely an area of overlap, where one informs the other. Mostly UL Packing informs prepping; not so much the other way around.

Regards the comment:

>Most people in the prepper scene or mindset seem to be most concerned with their families, friends, and themselves, which is understandable, but i've always been much more universal and impersonal in nature.

I'll try to ignore the self-flattery, and address the topic. This is a highly polar issue in the prepper forums. The selfish preppers are much louder and more obnoxious. But the more thoughtful preppers (of which there are many) recognize the importance of community, and prep to help their neighbors along with themselves. The prepper community is exceedingly diverse.

Regards the question about a decent saw, I own a SawVivor and think it's great. It's a synthesis of prep & UL packing, as it's fantastically light, and strong -- too heavy for UL backpacking, but not by much.

saw

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Comments. on 10/10/2013 21:02:43 MDT Print View

Lol if i don't flatter me, who else on this great blue-green Earth will??? :(



Interesting saw there, thank you for sharing it. How much does one of those cost?

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/10/2013 21:15:13 MDT Print View

BTW, as an emergency "survival" saw I would look at the Bahco Laplander.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: water on 10/10/2013 21:17:39 MDT Print View

Luckily water is not an issue with a river, streams and springs all around.
Just need treatment.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/10/2013 21:23:24 MDT Print View

"good point on water. I only have a day or two's supply on hand. During the winter I can collect rain water, but during the summer the closest reliable water source is brackish. Anyone know how to do at-home desalination? Would I have to rig up some kind of distillery?"

They make desalinators for life rafts. I'd google that and I'm sure you'd find something that might work for you.

http://inhabitat.com/puri-desalinating-water-bottle-could-save-your-life-at-sea/

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/10/2013 21:31:26 MDT Print View

Thank you Franco.

Have you ever used the Silky brand saws? Worth the money or not?

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/10/2013 21:43:31 MDT Print View

No but I have read good reports on them.
I have used a different version of the Bahco (good) and a few of the "chain saws" (useless to me...) and also made a smaller version of the Sven Saw (I did not know at the time that someone had already made it)
The Bahco is a pruning saw , so better than some if cutting green or not fully dry wood.
Look also for the Little Bug saw (from a fellow hiker)
The problem with some LW saws is that the blade is not kept in tension, the Little Bug is.
I used a bigger version of that H design decades ago.

Thaddaeus Wharton
(Thadjw) - MLife
Re: on 10/10/2013 22:10:44 MDT Print View

How unlikely is solar event that crushes the power grid?... You dropped some mumbo jumbo about special solar events... A great big event can happen independent of trend in magnitude of solar cycle... Yes, but we tend to see things that are of similar magnitude to what we've seen before. I'm not one of the scientists and I'll ask one sometime but the fact is the solar max we expected around this period is weak. I almost want to egg you on like some of the cough cough... contributors... to this thread but I'm trying to play this straight. This cycle is weak and an outlier event strong enough to damage infrastructure is highly unlikely. I'll research this more but the US is concerned about Sp Wx events effecting satellite function, impacting GPS accuracy, and impacting PGM accuracy... The systems also help with new types of weather modeling using detection of GPS signal interference at limb of the earth... It just isn't a strong enough concern to really be worried from what we've seen in the last 30+ years. A massively impactful event sounds neat but is wildly improbable.

Edited by Thadjw on 10/10/2013 22:12:09 MDT.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: on 10/10/2013 22:30:40 MDT Print View

I'm not completely sure of this, but my current understanding is that the Carrington event happened during a cycle much like ours in that it was relatively low amounts of sunspots overall. At least that is what i have read in some articles. I'm trying to look for more hardcore verification of this though.

Anyways, my basic point was and still is, scientifically speaking the Sun is a wild card which we cannot predict accurately that long into the future. Call that mumbo jumbo if you like. I call it, lack of information/intell on a huge, dynamic system (the Sun) that we need to learn a heck of a lot more about before we can make any science based predictions with any accuracy.

NASA for example, has been quite off regarding this cycle at least a couple of times now. I remember when they first came out a few years or so ago and said this Solar Max cycle was going to be a doozy. Then they said it was going to peak at such and such time. Now one person at NASA has said it looks like it will be a double peak cycle. Point is, lots of conjecture and guessing and definitely been wrong.

Regarding the unpredictable, uncertain nature of extreme Solar activity, here is an interesting quote from one of those (top) scientists who study the Sun,

"Reinforcing the unpredictable nature of the issue of when it will happen is Tom Bogdan, head of the Space Weather Prediction Center at the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration:

'It’s the extreme solar events I’m worried about,' he said. 'It might not happen this solar cycle. But sometime in my lifetime or my children’s, that storm will be here. The question is ‘Will we be prepared for it?’?"

http://www.hlswatch.com/2011/06/26/a-carrington-event-how-seriously-do-we-take-low-probability-high-consquence-events/

Notice he doesn't sound very confident that we are currently prepared for it. We could fix this with a lot of work and money, but it has not been done yet.

Edited by ArcturusBear on 10/10/2013 22:33:29 MDT.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Re: on 10/10/2013 23:14:55 MDT Print View

To prove my point, here are some links to some graphs that chart past recorded Sun spot numbers.

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://linus.highpoint.edu/~atitus/ast121/Chapter_10/solar_atmosphere/sunspot_cycle.gif&imgrefurl=http://linus.highpoint.edu/~atitus/ast121/content.php?content%3D57&h=600&w=800&sz=18&tbnid=2P3A9uI4510cbM:&tbnh=92&tbnw=123&zoom=1&usg=__IgTEEtbT1vejxXyxN7lh4YZR0d4=&docid=IDBLku5J6XptkM&sa=X&ei=V4ZXUoKhAs-44AOx74Bw&ved=0CEUQ9QEwAw

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/28/Sunspot_Numbers.png/800px-Sunspot_Numbers.png&imgrefurl=http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sunspot_Numbers.png&h=340&w=800&sz=121&tbnid=KD5SNNLYfe_UPM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=212&zoom=1&usg=__AwADxL0-m9Kt0RSci1xosD1xVrE=&docid=lTi3aTKGl7aGYM&sa=X&ei=V4ZXUoKhAs-44AOx74Bw&ved=0CEMQ9QEwAg

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.tmgnow.com/IMAGES/lassen1.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.tmgnow.com/repository/solar/lassen1.html&h=464&w=635&sz=53&tbnid=Jha88iG0Sn3wLM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=123&zoom=1&usg=__zsVAAPlL3veDgDsaAejjfWdlRLc=&docid=UMGy8GolEGqZfM&sa=X&ei=V4ZXUoKhAs-44AOx74Bw&ved=0CEcQ9QEwBA

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.climatedata.info/resources/Forcing/Sun-Spots/02a-Sunspot_butterfly_diagram.gif&imgrefurl=http://www.climatedata.info/Forcing/Forcing/sunspots.html&h=724&w=898&sz=38&tbnid=nvFiV_tAWixcyM:&tbnh=98&tbnw=122&zoom=1&usg=__02Q3B5isnzjDdPVQTFwbPBLyqnI=&docid=THsdyLCf2xU7OM&sa=X&ei=V4ZXUoKhAs-44AOx74Bw&ved=0CEkQ9QEwBQ


Notice in ALL of these graphs, the spikes during the Carrington event time frame. Not a particularly impressive cycle number of overall Sunspots wise.

I may be full of wooh woo'ness and right brainness, but i do also know how to use my left brain especially when it's a subject that i care about, have previously researched,. Quite frankly, scientifically speaking, no one can say with any accuracy or certainty that the Sun cannot or will not produce a very massive energetic output in the near future. NOT even your scientist friends. Hence why i call it a "wild card".

If we didn't know, somehow, that the Carrington event hadn't happened, but we looked at those graphs and based on your premise, we might say, "oh look, nothing major happened during those past cycles, look how few Sunspots there were", and we would be totally wrong.

Thaddaeus Wharton
(Thadjw) - MLife
Re: on 10/11/2013 00:10:57 MDT Print View

Someone should start this as a new thread bc it takes too long to get to the bottom... First link didn't work. I've seen some of the research and am familiar with double peak. Some interesting stuff on Carrington Event on Wikipedia (did you write that I hope not?)... (I kid)... The interesting thing seems to be that the coronal ejections that were taking place happened to be going on for some time and were directed towards the earth and this cleared the way for a large CME to affect the earth more seriously than if the path had not been cleared. I'll listen more intently to some things that people discuss but the early stuff you bring in sounded quite alarmist about something that is very unlikely to have an effect on us. It is conceivable... but highly improbable. We work with NOAA. There are good people on the case. More to come if I hear more that is valuable to discuss my friend.

And we take away from the OP thrust about prepping and long distance backpacking.

I just hope that people who are concerned don't get spooked because they are reading about some serious sounding solar stuff that they never considered. Preparation is good. Too much worry is not good. In my humble opinion.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: on 10/11/2013 00:15:16 MDT Print View

The first link does work, double tap on it and highlight it all. At least it works for me.

I understand what you are saying, and please understand that, except when i'm trying to be humorous, i rarely ever speak lightly about such serious topics, and people don't need to believe the specifics to at least make a good, long term and more durable bug out bag. A lot of folks here already have a lot of good gear to work towards this.

I really doubt most folks here are going to take the intuitive stuff seriously, but what i was trying to do was to plant subconscious seeds so that IF people have the experience of mysteriously losing power, communications, etc and starts seeing red auroras even near the equator, that this thread will come up in their conscious minds and they will prepare accordingly--especially those folks in populous areas.

That's all. Otherwise, i can drop the subject.

Edited by ArcturusBear on 10/11/2013 00:30:03 MDT.

robert van putten
(Bawana) - F

Locale: Planet Bob
water is life! on 10/11/2013 11:13:46 MDT Print View

Water has been mentioned, and of course is one of the most important of subjects.
At home, I have a little solar powered well pump run by a single solar panel. When the sun shines it pushes water up a hill to my cistern, which gravity feeds my homestead.
The well pump is adjustable and pumps water at the same rate it flows into the well, so the well is never drawn down. This saved allot of coin because my well need not be drilled real far down to hold a reserve of water, and unlike the typical power hog well pump which takes a tremendous amount of energy to power, mine runs on one 120 watt solar panel.

You should have seen the look on the well drillers face when I told him to shut everything down when the hole was "just" 100 feet deep! They charge by the foot, ya know.

Heh, I have a spigot in the yard and one by the barn, no running water in our cottage!
But, as my Doc says "Running water is over rated anyway"
He'd rather I get the exercise hauling it in by the bucketful!

Anyway -

As backpackers we already are familiar with finding and if necessary treating, water.
It's something we do every trip! So again, we have another pretty good advantage over armchair preppers.

Iodine water treatment pills is what I'd pack in an emergency kit. I know this method has lost ground to filters and chlorine base chemical treatments, but consider this angle -

Fukushima protection!

That's right!

Wikipedia says this about it -

"Iodine treated drinking water, treated with tablets containing tetraglycine hydroperiodide, also reduces the uptake of radioactive iodine in human subjects to only 2% of the value it would otherwise be.[5] This could be an important factor worthy of consideration for treating water in a recent post nuclear event survival situation, where radioactive iodine ingestion is a concern for internal radiotoxicity. If the iodine has precipitated out of the solution, then the drinking water has less available iodine in solution. Also the amount of iodine in one tablet is not sufficient to block uptake. Tetraglycine hydroperiodide maintains its effectiveness indefinitely before the container is opened; although some manufacturers suggest not using the tablets more than three months after the container has initially been opened, the shelf life is in fact very long provided that the container is resealed immediately after each time it is opened"


Also note -

"Department of Medicine, Madigan Army Medical Center, Tacoma, Washington 98431.
Tetraglycine hydroperiodide tablets purify water by liberating 8 mg free iodine/tablet. The effects of ingesting four tablets daily for 3 months on thyroid size, function, and radioactive iodine uptake were studied prospectively in eight healthy volunteers. Serum inorganic iodide increased from 2.7 to approximately 100 micrograms/dL. Urinary iodide excretion rose 150-fold from a pretreatment mean of 0.276 to 40 mg/day. Radioactive iodine uptake was less than 2% after 7 days and remained below 2% in all subjects at 90 days. Mean serum T4 and T3 declined after 7 days. T4 remained below baseline, whereas T3 had recovered by the end of the treatment period. Serum TSH and the TSH response to TRH rose significantly after 7 days and remained elevated at 3 months. The average thyroid volume, determined by ultrasound, increased by 37%. Neither hyperthyroidism nor hypothyroidism was observed. The mean thyroid volume in seven subjects available for repeat determinations an average of 7.1 months after the study was not different from the baseline value. In normal subjects, a reversible TSH-dependent thyroid enlargement occurs in response to the iodine load from daily use of tetraglycine hydroperiodide water purification tablets."


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7829615

Franco Darioli
(Franco) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/11/2013 14:31:56 MDT Print View

Justin,
You are perfectly correct , the solar thingo may or may not happen any time soon ,or later.
I am predicting that pink elephants may, or may not, be found hiding in the Amazonian jungle.
Prove me wrong.
But seriously, I think you should post your periodic warnings to coincide with the start of The Olympics , so that every four years we all tune in to your up-dates.

Edited by Franco on 10/11/2013 14:32:50 MDT.

David Gardner
(GardnerOutdoorLD) - M

Locale: Northern California
Re: Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/11/2013 14:40:56 MDT Print View

I'm adapting the front half of a tactical vest to attach to my Gossamer Gear G4. Will send more pictures as the project comes along.

vest

The SawVivor looks great. Need to get one.

Cold Steel makes a cutlass machete I'm going to check out, to see how it compares to a small hatchet for chopping and splitting. My current machete weighs less than 18 oz, lighter than any decent hatchet.

Dave U
(FamilyGuy) - F

Locale: Rockies
Re: Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/11/2013 14:41:14 MDT Print View

You Sir, are correct.

pinkl

Mark S
(gixer) - F
Prepper philosophy on 10/12/2013 11:32:00 MDT Print View

Amazes me the amount of time, money and energy some folks invest to "prepare" for an event that is extremely unlikely to occur in our life times and even if it does there is absolutely no evidence to suggest our more modern infrastructure would be as affected as in 1859 or even 1989.

Yet many preppers i know are dramatically overweight up to and beyond the point of morbidly obese and very few have any financial security behind them.

Seems to me that heart disease and job loss in these days are a far more real threat to our families.
Granted having 250 years worth of MRE's might well keep your family fed through financially tough times, doesn't stop debt collectors knocking on your door because rent or bills have not been paid.

Don't get me wrong, i'm all for preparing for imminent disasters, i live in a very active earthquake zone and have a bag filled with emergency kit, copies of important documents and any needed medication.
I have also carried out earthquake drills so we all know where to meet and stand when the next one occurs, i've also told family members and neighbours where will be in the hope that if the building does come down they'll have a better chance of finding us.

So i'm all for making logical preparations, it's just that in my experiences the hardest punches that life gives us are always the ones we never saw coming.
So going on and on about some event that might happen in our life times that might cause some damage that we can't really foresee just seems like a pointless waste of time, money and effort in my eyes.

Better to have some savings and varied investments, eat and live healthy, enjoy life and roll with the punches.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Prepper philosophy on 10/12/2013 11:47:56 MDT Print View

I agree that it is crucial to have a plan in place as to how and where meet family, and we all should do at least that. Water and meds, same thing.
Savings and varied investments, on the other hand, are not something everyone can just "do".

Dan Yeruski
(zelph) - MLife

Locale: www.bplite.com
Re: three days on 10/12/2013 13:36:45 MDT Print View

"Hurricane Katrina forced 800,000 people to live outside of their homes, most for quite some time."

That is correct and they had prior warning that Katrina was coming. They made arrangements with family and friends and organizations that could help them out till they could get permanently settled. Electronic bank transfers, credit cards etc got their money to them where ever they were.

Roger Dodger
(RogerDodger) - F

Locale: Wess Siide
Re: Prepper philosophy on 10/12/2013 19:10:33 MDT Print View

It's about a risk assessment matrix

severity of catastrophe (High , Medium, Low)
multiplied by
Probability of harm (High , Medium, Low)
multiplied by
Likelihood of event (High , Medium, Low)

Example:
Earthquake followed by Tsunami, then fires, looting and riots.
Severity=High (domino effect of everything messed up)
Probability of harm=Low (confident I can take care of myself)
Likelihood of event=High (statistically)

Figure out your personal score, and mitigate the risk accordingly.
To some, they mitigate the quake risk by moving to the East coast. but then they get hurricanes :P

In California, we have a bunch of these 100 year flood, 100 year quake, 100 year fires, but lately they have occurred on an annual cycle.

The optimist view: Very low probability that a major disaster will happen.
The statistician: it's been a quiet 99 years, you're F*d in the next year or ten.
The pessimist: Feel like there's a disaster every week.
The apathy guy: what happens, happens, gravity wins, can't win against angry nature.
The Paranoid: I read on the Internet that...
The Rambo: All I need is a bandanna, and I can survive any force of nature.
The disposable income guy: I'll buy duct tape, and 100 gallons of everything.
The keyboard commando: I've watched a lot of youtube videos, I can survive anything.
The ex-refugee: wrote tragic life events on the Internet that the Paranoid and Keyboard commandos read.

The prepared guy: there is a small chance that a disaster will happen, and an even smaller chance that my emergency gear will be accessible, and even smaller chance that I'll get lucky to survive by using it... but why not, I have extra gear and an extra pack. Chance favors the prepared.

Edited by RogerDodger on 10/12/2013 20:20:25 MDT.

David Gardner
(GardnerOutdoorLD) - M

Locale: Northern California
Re: Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/12/2013 19:29:58 MDT Print View

JJ Johnson at Reality Survival is running a giveaway contest, awarding some cool gear to contestants who do YouTube videos of their survival/disaster/prepper kits:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuYK1Rz8GH4

Richard May
(richardmay)

Locale: Costa Rica
Re: Prepper philosophy on 10/12/2013 20:09:34 MDT Print View

There's always Murphy's law: The best prepared are the ones who will die immediately.

Hence, I'll just scavenge the bodies and houses of the dead. This does mean my wife and child are more likely to survive so I make sure my kit well stocked.

:D

Delmar O'Donnell
(Bolster)

Locale: Between Jacinto & Gorgonio
Mark S's Approach on 10/13/2013 00:15:56 MDT Print View

I agree with Mark S's approach.

Put your main effort toward health issues.
Your second effort toward financial issues.
Time and energy left over? Get prepped.

Makes no sense to prep, and leave yourself wide open on the health & financial front. Preppers like to claim that the financial aspect will mean nothing after the crash, with "money worth nothing," but that's unlikely. Particularly if a good portion of your wealth is in useful items: land, houses, machines, food, defense, solar, etc.

And no, the best prepared won't be the first to die, that's silly.

Edited by Bolster on 10/13/2013 09:12:18 MDT.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Mark S's Approach on 10/13/2013 00:23:50 MDT Print View

"Put your main effort toward health issues.
Your second effort toward financial issues.
Time and energy left over? Get prepped."

You can put a 72hr bag together for less than $300 and that can be assembled over a few months.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 10/13/2013 00:39:08 MDT.

Eric Blumensaadt
(Danepacker) - MLife

Locale: Mojave Desert
LTG (Long Term Gear) on 10/13/2013 00:57:15 MDT Print View

Just back from Greece, a country on the brink of financial disaster where "prepping" may become a necessity.

My idea of a Long Term Disaster ( more than one month) means I need to think of gear that will work in many situations without renewable supplies like batteries and synthetic fuel.

** It's just me and my wife so we'll take at least two of everything

Also I'm looking at gear that can be use for backpacking to a safe haven or driving to it (if possible).
I live in 'Vegas, Baby and in this desert bugging out of town will rapidly become necessary. Going east and north seems the best direction. Namely Utah, Montana, or Wyoming.

But for a long term bug out this is my short list. It all fits into a RAV 4 sport ute, I hope.

STOVE> Caldera Cone Tri Ti or Sidewinder with a woodburning Inferno insert, Swedish fire starting stick & steel (Also a multi liquid fuel stove B/C some small amounts of liquid fuel will be available for a long time, like years.)

COOKSET> aluminum 1 or 1.5 L. pot & lid, aluminum skillet. small nylon spatula, Lexan knife, fork and spoon for each of us, plastic cups with measuring lines, insulated mugs, cozys, etc.

SLEEP SYSTEM> a mix of down and synthetic bags, two Thermarest mattresses

TENT> Tarptent Scarp 2 W/ winter inner & cross pole

PACKS> REI Cruise UL 60 and a modded Camelbak pack

CLOTHES> Durable, synthetic, both warm and cold weather including GTX parkas and pants

FIREARMS> (yes, some to trade for food, etc.)
1. Ruger 96/22 lever gun (scoped) .22 magnum, 500 rounds of ammo
2. two 9mm pistols, 200 rounds of 9mm
3. .300 Win mag. (two scoped rifles), 200 rounds
4. .308 lever action rifle, 100 rounds
5. Ruger 10/22 .22 LR, 500 rounds

There is more bon the list for water treatmant and medical as well as basic tools like a folding military shovel, folding saw, wrenches, pliers and DUCT TAPE!

Sort of a car-camp/backpack list that is always ready to go.

Edited by Danepacker on 10/13/2013 09:39:34 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Mark S's Approach on 10/13/2013 08:03:00 MDT Print View

Maybe rather than prepping (or health and finances) spend all your energy looking for gold? Spend a bunch of money on dredge, wetsuit, concentrator, spend all your weekends out on the local stream?

Dale Wambaugh
(dwambaugh) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest
Re: Silky saws on 10/13/2013 10:54:45 MDT Print View

Silky saws are good tools, but on the heavy side for a backpacker. The handles are overbuilt, IMHO.

The Bahco Laplander is a good balance of cost/weight/durability. Kershaw has marketed the same saw in the US with their logo on it. They are a little over 6oz.

I like the Gerber sliding saw which is one of the lightest and very inexpensive. I took down a 6" thick cherry tree in my yard in minutes with a Gerber and cleaned up all the braches too. The latest version is a little over 4oz. The Original was more like 3.5oz. I think this option is preferable to a small ax: 25-30% of the weight, far less expensive, and less prone to injuring yourself. Rides nice in your pack too, with no need for a sheath.

Another way to fill the saw niche is the Victorinox Trekker One Hand pocket knife. It will cut stuff large enough for shelter poles and light firewood and give you a good folding knife and other tools in the bargain.

Thaddaeus Wharton
(Thadjw) - MLife
Re: on 10/13/2013 11:53:40 MDT Print View

I'm worried that this thread is finally petering out... There is the EMP electrical grid possibility. A book called One Second After was written by a military scenario specialist. EMP takes out the grid on the eastern seaboard. Great read and some real prepper implications. People at my AF unit were discussing it. We got additional funding to harden survivable comms from congress... and I kinda think this type of conversation had something to do with that.

Any thoughts on that one? I'm genuinely curious.

Best prep that most should make is to have water and food stored up. And be prepared to defend yourself and loved ones. More about the weapon you are than the weapons you have btw. That sounds too big tyme... We should all be actually hiking and getting in better shape rather than discussing on the net.

Mark S
(gixer) - F
Re: Re: Prepper philosophy on 10/13/2013 14:32:22 MDT Print View

"Savings and varied investments, on the other hand, are not something everyone can just "do"."

We all have good times and bad times in our lives, the same with finances.

My in-laws worked very low paid jobs their entire lives, still they managed to save enough money to purchase 2 houses and have enough in the way if savings to enable a reasonable retirement.

Problem these days is most folks think nothing of spending $600 on a phone every year, the same on a tablet, new or newer car every 3 to 5 years, eat out, buy latest fashion stuff, $200 on sports shoes etc etc

The guy in the next office was complaining just last week on "how bad these times are" he has the latest Iphone 1 week after it came out, has a playstation, Xbox AND Wii, he buys a brand new car on finance every 3 years and was feeling bad as he was hungover from a night out in a place that charges €300 for a bottle of whiskey.

Doesn't matter how much money anyone earns it still requires self control and sacrifice to put some money away, but everyone can do it.


"Just back from Greece, a country on the brink of financial disaster where "prepping" may become a necessity."

Eric i have been living in Greece for the past 14 years, the media have been saying it's on the brink long before i got here.
Did you get the chance to visit a bouzoukia while you were here?

If you did then i'm sue you would have noticed that the places are jam pack solid with people, people that are easily paying €300 to €500 for a night out there.
Likewise if you visited any of the malls here in Athens you will see that near on every person there is walking around with carrier bags.

Sure times are rough, unemployment is a ridiculous levels especially for anyone under 25.
People still make ends meet though, if that means working 2 or 3 jobs or even something as dramatic as moving away from the country to work, then people are doing that.

Greece has many many problems, but there is absolutely no chance of the country breaking out into a civil war or anarchy taking over the streets.

Even if there was a chance what use would 20 years worth of MRE's or 600,000 rounds of ammunition do?

Far better to have some money saved and varied investments for you to fall back on.
If civil war did break out here then i'd simply rent out my properties, transfer my saving and move to the UK.
Once things had settled i'd move back.

That's the good thing about having some savings and investments behind you, it buys you time to come up with different solutions.
If on the otherhand someone had a massive stash of MRE's, guns, ammunition and toilet paper it would mean they have more of a reason to sit out any problems that occur.

I could pack up and move out my family within 1 hour, within 2 hours we could be at the airport and probably on a flight within 3 hours.
Failing that we could drive out of the country within say 20 hours.

My house and belongings are meaningless compared to my family, if the house gets looted while we are away then i wouldn't bat and eyelid.
If it gets flattened in a earthquake then as long as my family is safe i can rebuild it.

Most important thing to me is taking care of my family NOTHING else matters to me

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Re: Prepper philosophy on 10/13/2013 14:49:07 MDT Print View

""Savings and varied investments, on the other hand, are not something everyone can just "do"."

We all have good times and bad times in our lives, the same with finances.

My in-laws worked very low paid jobs their entire lives, still they managed to save enough money to purchase 2 houses and have enough in the way if savings to enable a reasonable retirement.

Problem these days is most folks think nothing of spending $600 on a phone every year, the same on a tablet, new or newer car every 3 to 5 years, eat out, buy latest fashion stuff, $200 on sports shoes etc etc "



I get your point and I am aware of people's spending habits. However I find your
"We all have good times and bad times in our lives, the same with finances" to be overly simple and possibly offensive to those that haven't had their fair share of good times, financially and otherwise.
I also work with people that eat out daily and whine that they have no savings, but I am aware that I am not spending time with those that are truly unfortunate.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Prepper philosophy on 10/13/2013 15:06:50 MDT Print View

Doesn't matter if you earn a lot or a little

If you save 20% of your income and invest it in stock market mutual fund, in 35 years you'll have 25 times your income, and then you can live off the interest

If you save more or less it'll take less or more time

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: Prepper philosophy on 10/13/2013 15:12:06 MDT Print View

"Doesn't matter if you earn a lot or a little"

With all due respect Jerry.....it does matter.
I can't believe I am having this conversation, but if you barely make it to the end of the month, that 10 or 20% is just not possible.
I only took objection to the statement that everyone can and ought to save money. I will save that many could and don't. Many others work so much to do that ...that they do little else in life. Many more battle to just keep afloat.

Smacks of elitism.

Edited by Kat_P on 10/13/2013 15:12:53 MDT.

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Mutual funds on 10/13/2013 15:19:53 MDT Print View

Who has seen stable growth lately ?

9/11, the bank collapse, the flirtation with default... All wiped my mutual funds.

To get better returns, Predict the collapse, short some stocks, and profit on the misery of others.Ss

Edited by redmonk on 10/13/2013 17:36:50 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Mutual funds on 10/13/2013 16:00:55 MDT Print View

I'm not being elitist Kat, just mathematical.

Yeah, if you have a low paid job it's difficult to live off 80% of it and save 20%. A lot of well paid jobs have disappeared since 2000 which is a problem that needs to be fixed.

There are super well paid people that spend more than they earn and they're stuck having to work forever.

If you earn $40 K and can live off $32K and save $8K, then in 35 years you'll have enough to earn $32K a year off interest.

This assumes the stock market grows 7% more than inflation, which it has the last more than a hundred years. The stock market in the last decade or whatever is consistent with this historical trend.

"The Truth about Mutual Funds" by John Bogel is a pretty good book that talks about this in quite a bit of detail.

If you can save 50% of your income, then it takes only 22 years.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Mutual funds on 10/13/2013 16:05:44 MDT Print View

"9/11, the bank collapse, the flirtation with default... All wiped my mutual funds.

To get 35% returns, Predict the collapse, short some stocks, and profit on the misery of others."

Easy for me to say, but in 2000, 2008, and today the S&P 500 is about 1500. Dividends cancelled out inflation. If you were in a low cost S&P 500 mutual fund, you would'nt have lost any money. No 7% growth, but before that, and in the future, it'll grow more and average out to something like 7%.

Richard May
(richardmay)

Locale: Costa Rica
Re: Mutual funds on 10/13/2013 16:13:21 MDT Print View

> 9/11, the bank collapse, the flirtation with default... All wiped my mutual funds.

Sure makes the mattress look like a good place to put your money eh?

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Mutual funds on 10/13/2013 16:47:31 MDT Print View

"> 9/11, the bank collapse, the flirtation with default... All wiped my mutual funds.

Sure makes the mattress look like a good place to put your money eh?"


If you put your money "under a matress" inflation will kill you

If you put all your money in a bank or other company that went bankrupt then you would have lost your money

If you put your money in a diversified low cost mutual fund like a S&P 500 index fund with for example Vanguard or Fidelity, then all the recent financial nonsense is just part of the historical variation that is unimportant.

Richard May
(richardmay)

Locale: Costa Rica
Re: Re: Re: Mutual funds on 10/13/2013 16:58:43 MDT Print View

> If you put your money in a diversified low cost mutual fund like a S&P 500
> index fund with for example Vanguard or Fidelity, then all the recent financial
> nonsense is just part of the historical variation that is unimportant.

My grandpa always told me never to put all my eggs into one basket.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Mutual funds on 10/13/2013 17:02:39 MDT Print View

"My grandpa always told me never to put all my eggs into one basket."

That's why you want an Index fund like S&P 500 - 500 baskets.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Mutual funds on 10/13/2013 17:37:20 MDT Print View

"If you put your money "under a matress" inflation will kill you"

If you put your money under a mattress, be careful who you invite over for the night. ;0)

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Saving on 10/13/2013 18:03:10 MDT Print View

In America, if you can save 50%, they can replace you with someone at half your pay.

If someone can save 20%, they can replace you with someone that will work for 80% of your pay.

The race to the bottom hasn't been great for America.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Saving on 10/13/2013 18:22:37 MDT Print View

"In America, if you can save 50%, they can replace you with someone at half your pay.

If someone can save 20%, they can replace you with someone that will work for 80% of your pay.

The race to the bottom hasn't been great for America."


If you let "the free market" run unregulated, then yes, the cost of labor will reduce to the point of subsistence. Like Karl Marx and Rousseau talked about. I just happened to read the Communist Manifesto and Discourse on the Origin of Inequality recently.

After the great plagues killed off a lot of people there was a shortage of labor, pay increased, the whole economy in Europe improved.

Early in the U.S., there was a shortage of labor so wages increased resulting in our amazing prosperity. And after WWII.

Currently, the right wingers seem to have the upper hand somewhat so wealth has been redistributed to the few, but we can change that.

There is a shortage of well trained people, engineers or whatever, so if you get a good education you'll be able to get paid more than subsistance.

Maybe is this right wing wacko hysteria that has overtaken us passes, things will get better

Delmar O'Donnell
(Bolster)

Locale: Between Jacinto & Gorgonio
Seriously? on 10/14/2013 00:17:00 MDT Print View

I hesitate following the herd going off topic, but on the other hand I’m concerned someone might read the previously remarkably ideological post and think there’s truth in it. (And, this thread is already hopelessly derailed so I’m not having pangs of conscience saying this.)

The cost of the vast majority of labor has *not* reduced to the point of subsistence in the past century in developed (mostly capitalist) countries--it’s done just the opposite! Unless of course you redefine the fat, opulent lifestyle of developed countries as “subsistence.” One of the great disconfirmations of Marx’s now thoroughly discredited theories (which not even Socialists in good standing attempt to defend) is that the poor did not get poorer in capitalist countries…they got richer; the middle class was born and thrived in capitalist Europe and America, not Soviet Russia. Allowing private capital in the post-Mao mix in China has caused a similar rise of the middle class there. (China, despite being Communist, is also relentlessly capitalistic--the amazing sort of synthesis that the Chinese can pull off.)

And the line about “currently the right wingers seem to have the upper hand…”. In case you’d not noticed, the left wingers have unprecedented control of the US government, and have had it for the past 5 years! Having the left wing in charge has not made the lower or middle class richer, or our society more equivalent. Just the opposite, in fact. The difference between rich and poor has gotten more severe during this administration. (http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/09/10/the-rich-get-richer-through-the-recovery/?_r=1) Soviet Russia was likewise sharply divided into a privileged “governmental ruling class” and the “ruled citizenry,” just as the USA is becoming. Wealth is widely redistributed in the USA, but of course, it’s never enough. I realize leftists need the “right wing boogeyman” as the necessary villain in their morality play, but the political right in the USA is at its lowest nadir in 60 or 70 years, barely clings to power in the House alone, and can do nothing to stop O's "transformation." They may be entirely gone from congress and white house by 2014, and we’ll be back to a single-party system.

Now someone will step in and rap my knuckles for talking politics, but I felt the previous post required a rebuttal. I’ll gladly shut up about politics when everyone else does.

Edited by Bolster on 10/14/2013 00:27:49 MDT.

Mark S
(gixer) - F
Re: Re: Re: Re: Prepper philosophy on 10/14/2013 02:16:46 MDT Print View

"I get your point and I am aware of people's spending habits. However I find your
"We all have good times and bad times in our lives, the same with finances" to be overly simple and possibly offensive to those that haven't had their fair share of good times, financially and otherwise.
I also work with people that eat out daily and whine that they have no savings, but I am aware that I am not spending time with those that are truly unfortunate."

I honestly do not believe my opinion to be overly simplistic Katharina.

Using myself as an example i've times in my life where i have had to work 3 poorly paid jobs to make ends meet.
This necessitated living in a bedsit, visiting the bakers 30mins before they close to get vastly cheaper bread, buying out of date pasta and rice at the beginning of the month for food and sitting staring out the window at night to try and save electricity.

STILL i managed to put some money aside during those times

If someone is living hand to mouth for years on end then THEY need to do something to change their situation, if work is limited in their area they need to move, if they are getting into debt then they need to stop living beyond their means.
If their medical bills are crippling them, then they should have made sacrifices beforehand to afford private medical insurance.

It's all basic housekeeping and the amount you earn doesn't matter, if your thrifty you should still be able to save a percentage of your earnings.

Personally i could not sleep at night if i didn't have a plan in case i fell ill or lost my job, this is basic fundamental prepping IMO
Keep yourself fit
Have your family eat healthy
Have a good medical plan
Have enough savings/investments aside to see you through at least 6 months
If you can't find a job after 6 months, retrain, move location or have have a attitude adjustment as they're the only 3 reasons i can see sustaining long term unemployment.
A good mate of mine had to quit his job to take care of his Mrs, he retrained and 1 year on is earning more money than he did before and is working from home.

It can be done if you have enough savings to buy you some breathing time so you can think things through

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Still on 10/14/2013 05:55:25 MDT Print View

Using yourself as an example still won't cut it as far as addressing people that live in real poverty.
I could use myself too and make an even better point for you, as I make little, work an insane number of hours ( my 40 hour job, 10 or so hours a week for my landlord and another 25 or so sewing and knitting. Plus I cook our meals, clean etc) and so rarely eat out that it seems silly. I don't owe money, don't live beyond my means, eat healthy home cooked meals etc. I could be the poster child ( ...) for what you are saying and I used to say the same here on BPL. Now I think there are just too many variables and we are privileged bunch and to go around saying that "everyone" is able to save, is borderline insulting.

Edited by Kat_P on 10/14/2013 07:33:13 MDT.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
$$ on 10/14/2013 05:57:30 MDT Print View

The amount you earn does matter.
Maybe you need to hang out with a different crowd for a while.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Seriously? on 10/14/2013 07:29:21 MDT Print View

Marx and Rousseau seemed very simplistic to me. Obviously turning everything over to the state didn't work so well. But they did say some good things.

If you look at wealth distribution, it's got progressively worse since 1930. Like Warren Buffet said, there's class warfare and my (Buffet's) class won.

There are a lot of people that had good jobs in 2000, but who are now not doing so well - maybe not subsistence but going in that direction.

Politicially, the Nadir in recent times was when Goldwater got beat for president. Then the right wingers got together and came up with a strategy that got them progressively more power until now.

Maybe things are turning around now with Obama being elected. But if you look at the House now, they are as as right wing as ever, I think even worse than when Gnewt was Speaker. The Democrats did get Obamacare passed which they have been trying to do since the 1930s, but otherwise there have been no liberal programs.

The left wingers had unprecedented control of the US government when FDR was president and when LBJ was pushing through all his programs.

I think you've let your conservative bias effect your views of how things are today.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: $$ on 10/14/2013 07:43:48 MDT Print View

"The amount you earn does matter."

I think you're right, saving 20% of what you earn doesn't work for everyone.

Some people are in a position where it's not possible to work three jobs or get re-trained. Government safety net is a good thing in some situations.

But, I worked as engineer and a lot of my co-workers had all the latest gadgets, spent all their income or more, and they'll be working until they drop dead. And that's okay, a lot of people refuse to "retire" because they enjoy working. I liked working for the most part. I like not working even better : )

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Re: Re: $$ on 10/14/2013 08:52:49 MDT Print View

I get that Jerry. I also know plenty of people that live well, and well beyond their means, then whine all the time. It is frustrating and you just want to take out pen and paper and do some math for them. Those, and even those with modest incomes that spend too much and borrow, are not the people I am talking about that cannot save.

Richard May
(richardmay)

Locale: Costa Rica
Idiotology vs Reality on 10/14/2013 09:09:20 MDT Print View

I'm not a political scientist, economist, or any other kind of social scientist. I am merely a photographer. So, I'm open to being wrong the musings I put forth below.

I think we can all agree that the purpose of ideologies is noble: They aim at guiding governing policy so that the largest number of people will benefit. Their aim, I should hope, is to increase social well being.

Sadly, ideologues get so caught up in their ideas that they forget to check them against reality. For example, the fanatic-right tends to idealize free markets so much they leave greed unchecked. Conversely, the fanatic-left tends to idealize regulation so much it creates micro-managing bureaucracies.

Science looks at commonly observable facts and creates theories about how these observations occur and interact. Pseudo-science creates a theory and tortures observations to fit the theory. Until now we haven't had extensive data on happiness, well being, health and prosperity. So all ideologies are, to varying degrees, pseudo-scineces. They have not had extensive, global, hard data to to support or deny their positions.

This is why I find the UN's World Happiness Report so fascinating. It is a serious attempt to understand happiness and well- being on a global scale. It provides quantifiable data that can be used to improve human well-being around the world.

I've only been able to skim through it but there are a couple of things that stand out, at least in its' opening arguments. First is that subjective happiness has objective, positive repercussions on society at large. Second, that it would appear that access to health care is an important factor contributing to well-being (duh!), but the means of access is not. For example Denmark (this reports' #1) uses a mandate model and Costa Rica (last reports' #1) uses a state run health system parallel to a private market.

It would seem to me that when ideologies become idiotologies we all loose. When we loose sight of the goal of general well-being because we want our favorite pseudo-science to win then we lose again. Furthermore, we lose when our ego's prevent us from seeing reality and our reality becomes idiotological vapor.

Delmar O'Donnell
(Bolster)

Locale: Between Jacinto & Gorgonio
Re: Re: Seriously? on 10/14/2013 09:22:59 MDT Print View

> But they did say some good things.

Exactly. Good oratory is often a precursor for really bad political results and widespread suffering. Marx, Lenin, Hitler, Mao, and unmentioned others were (or are) all awesome socialist orators. But socialism is without doubt the most deadly form of modern government. The vast majority of genocides from the past century were perpetrated by socialist rulers: Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Pot, Sung, Mariam. That short list totals 100 million dead. No non-socialist leaders even come close.

Your history of disparity is far too short; humans have almost always lived under a system where the many labored for the few, from the Pharaohs on down through thousands of years of history. The masses (to which I belong) have gotten much, much more of the pie in the last 100 years, compared to previous history. The real danger is letting the power revert back to the political class, which is happening even now. Our government is getting more powerful, more controlling, more intertwined with business, and the legislators are getting richer and more untouchable. Give the power back to the citizens.

Wrong on conservative history, also. Goldwater was the beginning of a resurgence. The right was at another "super" low (as now) under FDR. The American Right has a history of caving under strong socialist rulers.

> Maybe things are turning around now with Obama being elected.

Amazing. You act like this happened last week, when we have five years of evidence. And you ignore the fact that under the current president, the disparity you bemoan has gotten markedly worse, not better. No, it is not turning around. Equality didn't occur (as planned) in the USSR either. You had a wildly unequal ruler/ruled division. Socialism preaches equality but in reality, does the opposite: it sets up powerful tyrants.

> I think you've let your conservative bias effect your views of how things are today.

I knew you'd go personal, and to someone who is to the left of Mao, I'm certain everyone else looks conservative. But you are wrong once again. Centrist independent here. The difference between you and me is, I happen to have a degree in history, and know what happened in the past.

Again, my offer stands: You shut up about your political perspective, and I won't teach history. These discussions don't belong here, but neither should your erroneous assertions go unanswered. Let's end it, and get back to the thread.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Seriously? on 10/14/2013 09:36:57 MDT Print View

"I knew you'd go personal, and to someone who is to the left of Mao, I'm certain everyone else looks conservative"

I'm pretty much in the middle with a slight liberal bias. Maybe slightly more libertarian than anything else.

I was just arguing people should save more so they can support themselves, that's pretty conservative.

Like I said before, your conservative bias is affecting your perspective.

"Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy" topic is not lightweight backpacker topic, is inviting thread drift.

"but neither should your erroneous assertions go unanswered" - we agree on that : )

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
bugging 0ut on 10/14/2013 09:46:53 MDT Print View

Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Pot, Sung, Mariam. That short list totals 100 million dead.

6 people, 100 million dead, 100/6 = 17 million per evil guy.


Native American population, 30M -> 3M = 27M dead.

Which socialist regime did it ?

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: bugging 0ut on 10/14/2013 10:18:13 MDT Print View

That's pretty subtle Cameron : )

You're saying there are non socialist regimes that have done atrocities?

Also there are socialist regimes that are pretty good, like Denmark is about the most socialist country and also they have the happiest people (arguably?) and the best/cheapest health care.

So if someone says "socialism is without doubt the most deadly form of modern government" then they're just letting their far right wing idiotology flow through?

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Prepper philosophy on 10/14/2013 17:41:04 MDT Print View

"Keep yourself fit
Have your family eat healthy
Have a good medical plan
Have enough savings/investments aside to see you through at least 6 months
If you can't find a job after 6 months, retrain, move location or have have a attitude adjustment as they're the only 3 reasons i can see sustaining long term unemployment.
A good mate of mine had to quit his job to take care of his Mrs, he retrained and 1 year on is earning more money than he did before and is working from home."

Regarding all points above, save staying fit and possibly eating healthy: On a minimum wage job? In today's outsourced-at-the-top-insourced-at-the-bottom labor market? Really?

Might you sketch us out a rough plan for accomplishing this? If so, you could well be a legitimate candidate to be our next Secretary of Labor. Assuming the D's don't screw things up even worse and hand the White House to the R's.

Mark S
(gixer) - F
Re: Still on 10/14/2013 18:04:20 MDT Print View

"Using yourself as an example still won't cut it as far as addressing people that live in real poverty.
I could use myself too and make an even better point for you, as I make little, work an insane number of hours ( my 40 hour job, 10 or so hours a week for my landlord and another 25 or so sewing and knitting. Plus I cook our meals, clean etc) and so rarely eat out that it seems silly. I don't owe money, don't live beyond my means, eat healthy home cooked meals etc. I could be the poster child ( ...) for what you are saying and I used to say the same here on BPL. Now I think there are just too many variables and we are privileged bunch and to go around saying that "everyone" is able to save, is borderline insulting."

Kat,

In the context of this thread we are talking about people that make "preparations" for certain disasters.

If a person has no time or money to put into "preps" then there is not much of a point in discussing different ways or prepping is there.

It would be like me opening up a topic on a car forum asking if i should buy a koenigsegg or a Bugati Veyron, i don't have the finances to buy either


My suggestion is that instead of folks stock piling MRE's, ammunition, guns, toilet paper etc it would be better to save that money (money they would have spent on preps) and have some financial security behind them, as i feel it's far more likely these days for families to suffer financially rather than solar flares.

The other point i was trying to make is that, there are very few people on this planet that haven't gone through tough times, be it financially, health wise or emotionally, yet to my knowledge no one has yet died as a direct result of a solar flare.
So i'm of the opinion that it's better to deal with the real problems we are facing today rather than some made up possible scenario.

In your case, when i was in a similar situation i trained and moved careers as i could see light at the end of the tunnel in the path i was taking.
I managed to claw my way up the ladder in this new career and after a few years was able to earn enough and pair down my expenses enough to save a little.

I would argue that by retraining this was more valuable as a "prep" than any amount of stock piled items.


"Regarding all points above, save staying fit and possibly eating healthy: On a minimum wage job? In today's outsourced-at-the-top-insourced-at-the-bottom labor market? Really?

Might you sketch us out a rough plan for accomplishing this? If so, you could well be a legitimate candidate to be our next Secretary of Labor. Assuming the D's don't screw things up even worse and hand the White House to the R's."

Personally i take responsibility for my own actions and find that blaming others for my misfortunes is a waste of time and effort.
If i am not earning enough to provide for my family i will do something about it, i certainly won't wait around for some "financial climate" or whatever nonsense they spout these days to make things sound better.
Be that changing jobs, moving areas or even moving country, it really doesn't matter ALL that matters is that i can take care of my family, AGAIN i see that as MY responsibility not a government.
That's my choice and has absolutely NOTHING to do with any sort of politics.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Not asking on 10/14/2013 18:14:31 MDT Print View

"In your case, when i was in a similar situation i trained and moved careers as i could see light at the end of the tunnel in the path i was taking.
I managed to claw my way up the ladder in this new career and after a few years was able to earn enough and pair down my expenses enough to save a little."


In my case? You were in a similar situation? See the light at the end of the tunnel?
What does that mean? Are you talking about me? Because there is no tunnel here. Sorry to hear about yours though. I don't remember complaining nor asking for any help. Your post is downright insulting now.

Time to move on.

Edited by Kat_P on 10/14/2013 21:37:19 MDT.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/14/2013 21:28:19 MDT Print View

Regarding the link on the Trishield vs Dyneema. That is Dyneema Grid. Nothing is stronger than full Dyneema or Spectra for backpacking fabric.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Bug Out Bag / Prepper Setup / Survival-based UL kit and philosophy on 10/14/2013 21:31:23 MDT Print View

Sounds like a lot of paranoia going on here, not philosophy. Having been through several major earthquakes, we are prepared. Really just need a few days food and water.

Also have a solar powered camper in the drive way with 100 gals of freshwater in it. But the real purpose is to go camping several times a month when not backpacking.

David Adair
(DavidAdair) - M

Locale: West Dakota
Lazy Prepper on 10/14/2013 22:34:39 MDT Print View

I've seen too much Sci-Fi channel to want to be the guy that says "Don't be ridiculous, there's no such thing as vampire flying squirrels" because he always gets it first. So while I agree that some folks may take the prepping thing too far, not prepping at all seems a little unrealistic too.

We have evolved into a just-in-time food delivery system. My grocery store is now stocked daily by trucks coming from distribution centers 500 miles away in Salt Lake City. I have grown fond of eating and the potential for disruption concerns me. How people live in big cities and not be the least bit paranoid is beyond me.

So at Costco, Sam's Club or Wal-mart:

3-50 lb bags of rice @$19.00
2-25 lb bags of flour @ 7.50
4- 20 oz McCormick gravy mix @ 10.00
2-25 lb pinto beans @ 12.00

Toss in some boxes of mashed potatoes, oatmeal and canned meats and vegetable. So for a hundred and fifty bucks you could hold out fine for a month or so pretty easy. Most of the stuff keeps fine for years. Please don't be that guy.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Lazy Prepper on 10/14/2013 23:10:59 MDT Print View

Umm, *everyone* (who is anyone) knows that vampire flying squirrels are real, and a real threat. (rolls eyes at the inanity of humanity)



More seriously, best also be packing some good multi vitamin/mineral complexes or the like, because most the above food (minus canned veggies) is pretty lacking in nutrition. Becoming malnourished won't help ones long term chance of survival much.

Changing it up a little helps, like for example brown rice and lentils vs white rice and pinto beans. More expensive though.

David Gardner
(GardnerOutdoorLD) - M

Locale: Northern California
Hatchet or Machete? on 10/14/2013 23:21:14 MDT Print View

I have decided that my BOB will include basic woodcraft tools for building fires and shelters. I have a saw capable of cutting fire and shelter-size branches/logs, and need to choose a chopping/splitting tool to complement it.

I have been looking around on line, and have narrowed my choices to a hatchet or a machete. They both weigh about 18 oz, and they both cost about $30. The hatchet has an 15" handle and 3.5" blade face, the machete is 28" long with a 22" blade.

So, considering comparable weights and prices, and multiple use options including possible self defense, I've been leaning towards the machete vs. the hatchet.

What do others think?

Edited by GardnerOutdoorLD on 10/14/2013 23:30:40 MDT.

David Adair
(DavidAdair) - M

Locale: West Dakota
Re: Re: Lazy Prepper on 10/14/2013 23:57:25 MDT Print View

No slight was intended. Frankly, I don't spend much time considering exotic reasons to prep due to the abundance of more pedestrian ones. For example, those of us that are shooters got to witness the panic buying, hoarding and profiteering of ammo that took place earlier this year. Were people shooting more? Nope.

Just everybody had to buy every bit of ammo off the shelf whether they needed it or not. Kind of like the Tickle Me Elmo deal. People would show up at the store at opening to buy it all. Then they would sell it online for twice what they paid for it or more. You could buy ammo but you had to pay scalper prices. So now six months latter .22 ammo is starting to make it back onto store shelves.

Now I can do fine without .22 ammo for six months, but it would be different if it came to food.

PS, yes I need to toss some vitamins in the preps. Also needs more fat sources, maybe shelf stable margarine?

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Hatchet or Machete? on 10/15/2013 00:14:45 MDT Print View

I've used both and have hacked down small trees to clear fields of fire for a machine gun with just a machete in Panama. My machete has been retired to the garage but I've seen them break. I doubt that it'd be as good as a hatchet over the long haul so I'd probably go with the hatchet over the machete for use in North America.

Since you're primarily looking for something to split wood with, an ESEE 5 might be worth consideration too.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Lazy Prepper on 10/15/2013 00:24:11 MDT Print View

David and Justin,

You've both touched on what we're doing for our house. We're still in the planning stages but are making our first run to Costco tomorrow. The plan is to buy high calorie foods in bulk and also to purchase a few bottles of multivitamins to make sure we're getting the micronutrients we need.

One of my concerns is making sure we have all of our amino acids covered. I've thought about caning some beef and chicken but it seems that I could buy something from GNC to cover this? The upside to this is that if we have to evacuate for some reason, it'd be easier to transport dry goods than mason jars full of meat. Logic check?

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Hatchet or Machete? on 10/15/2013 00:44:39 MDT Print View

Hi David G.

Purely defensively, weaponry wise, i would go with the machete. In a more serious, long term collapse scenario, there are going to be A LOT of gone feral, starving dogs around, and personally i would rather much more face larger animals with a longer bladed weapon than a wee hatchet.

The Cold Steel "Katana" machete is less a machete (but can be used that way), but decent quality (but inexpensive) blade weapon. Plus, i can throw it like a spear pretty well. The tanto point is really strong and penetrating.

But yeah, a hatchet will be better making stuff and more all purpose.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Lazy Prepper on 10/15/2013 00:53:08 MDT Print View

There are different options Ian. Personally, i'm going with a lot of goat milk powder, pretty nutritionally dense, easy to digest, and fairly light weight and easily kept long term.

You can also go with dried whey, but it will have less calories/fat than the goat milk powder.

I don't recommend cow milk powder because of how hard to digest it is. When a food is hard to digest, it takes more energy than is helpful from your body to try to break it down.

Whey on the other hand, is all the good stuff in cow milk, without any or very little of, the bad stuff like the gluey casein proteins or lactose. Some wheys have more lactose than others, but for someone who can't drink cows milk without getting noticeably mucous'y, i can drink goat's milk without a problem. Yet, they both have lactose--the difference is that the goat milk proteins are much smaller and more easily broke down than the cow casein proteins.

It's the casein proteins that make the "curds" in that old nursery rhyme about little miss muffet, all the rest is the nice, nutritious and easily digested whey.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Re: Lazy Prepper on 10/15/2013 00:59:23 MDT Print View

David A., shelf stable margarine could work, but though it's more expensive, i would recommend extra virgin coconut oil. Costco sells a large tub of it for quite reasonable compared to most other places.

Very stable, high quality fat and definitely healthier than most margarines, which tend to add a lot of soy oil and other lesser quality oils. Besides being super stable, EVCO is easier to digest than most other fats.

Edited by ArcturusBear on 10/15/2013 08:23:58 MDT.

David Adair
(DavidAdair) - M

Locale: West Dakota
Re: Re: Lazy Prepper on 10/15/2013 01:28:10 MDT Print View

I really am a lazy prepper and don't know much about nutrition. Part of being lazy means I don't want to fuss with rotating stock. I just want cheap food with a long shelf life because I have every intention of ignoring it until I pitch it out unused in 10 or 20 years.

There are canned meats available, spam, tuna, chicken and beef. I don't know long they are good for, I would guess 5 years or more. You can find canned corned beef that is relatively expensive but lasts much longer. Of course there is freeze dried meat which is also expensive but is claimed to be good for 25 years. If you do buy freeze dried stuff wait to find it on sale somewhere.

I suppose you could live on something like Ensure so something like that might make a great supplement.

I can see how this prepping thing could become another time consuming and expensive hobby. I don't need another hobby...just want to bridge the gap until food is back in the grocery store and cold milk is in the fridge.

ETA: I'll check out the coconut oil and goats milk/whey,thanks!

Edited by DavidAdair on 10/15/2013 02:37:17 MDT.

Rick M
(rmjapan) - F

Locale: Tokyo, Japan
Re: Black Swan event sooner than you think on 10/15/2013 03:08:06 MDT Print View

Well it seems the most powerful typhoon in 10yrs is on a bullseye path for the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant tonight. Will this be the Black Swan event no one planned for? USA West Coast will have ~4days to get underground!

http://tinyurl.com/ksg2yj2

http://tinyurl.com/mefp5jk

http://tinyurl.com/cu7nz76

Edited by rmjapan on 10/15/2013 03:18:20 MDT.

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Black Swan event sooner than you think on 10/16/2013 20:57:42 MDT Print View

Thankfully it wasn't as bad as it could have been.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: Lazy Prepper on 10/17/2013 00:01:16 MDT Print View

" i would recommend extra virgin coconut oil. Costco sells a large tub of it for quite reasonable compared to most other places.

I checked this product out at Costco the other day. I love that there was over 20,000 calories in the tub but it only had a two year shelf life. Looks like a good product to keep on hand for every day use but not for long term storage.

Anywho.... I spent about $60 at Costco which purchased enough calories to feed my family of four for 17 days. The diet would be dreadfully boring but I'll add more to it in due time.

This is a great video created by the LDS and I found it to be very informative for food storage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOLuIApyNPc

just Justin Whitson
(ArcturusBear)
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Lazy Prepper on 10/17/2013 07:47:17 MDT Print View

If stored properly, it will last longer than two years. Its one of the most stable healthy oils out there. Nowadays, food manufacturers put pretty short good to dates on food. Heck, at the group home that I work at, we recently had to throw out some gallons of water because it was past date. I looked at the made date, it was only a year or so before the best by date...

Stored properly means vacuumed packed with moisture and oxygen absorbers. Would have to portion the oil in at least a few different bags.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Lazy Prepper on 10/17/2013 08:07:14 MDT Print View

If you routinely use something and it has a 2 year shelf life, then always have as much as you normally use in 2 years. When your supply is reduced by an amount that a new container is, buy a new one, just make sure and rotate stock.

You can store things like grain or fat in the freezer. It will last a lot longer. Of course there are emergency situations where you'll lose power, but then you just take it out and start using it.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Lazy Prepper on 10/17/2013 08:43:41 MDT Print View

"If stored properly, it will last longer than two years. Its one of the most stable healthy oils out there. Stored properly means vacuumed packed with moisture and oxygen absorbers. Would have to portion the oil in at least a few different bags."

The video I posted a link to is well worth watching. According to the guest speaker (who seems credible to me), items like Crisco which used to have an indefinite shelf life no longer does due to the new packaging. She suggested storing it in bell jars and vacuum sealing them. I suppose the same thing would apply to the coconut oil.

She also mentioned that canning your own meat will give it a 10+ year shelf life vs the <5 year shelf life of store bought canned meat.

Sounds like one of the better items for long term storage and versatility are wheat berries. Apparently this is one of those items that can be stored in buckets (with mylar bags, o2 absorbers, etc) in the garage or attic as it's fine in extreme heat/cold. Again, her words not mine but some casual googling seems to support her claims.

"If you routinely use something and it has a 2 year shelf life, then always have as much as you normally use in 2 years."

True. I'm more interested in items with a 10+ year shelf life where i can buy 30 days worth of food, store it and forget it. I figure if we have a real disaster, we could easily find another two weeks to a month's worth of meals by being creative with what we have on the shelves. Crisco isn't something that we ever use and I've never tried coconut so I'll probably pick one up to see if it's something I'd actually use or not. If we do then obviously we could do as you suggested and keep enough on hand to cover us for X months but not so much that it's expiring before it's used.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 10/17/2013 08:44:19 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Lazy Prepper on 10/17/2013 09:17:12 MDT Print View

Crisco? Is that real food? You must be joking : )

Yeah, it's convenient to put some emergency food away and forget about it for 10 years.

But if you're rotating through a couple years of some staples like flour, oatmeal, beans,... and then a disaster happens, you won't starve for a number of months

Maybe you can also have some 10 year shelf life stuff, this is just one component of your system