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Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: Re: Re: Re: Shutdown And Facts. on 10/06/2013 19:13:27 MDT Print View

To blame the Dems on this is rather silly. The House led by The GOP want to deufund Obamacare and have attached it to every proposal that they have put forth. The House has tried FORTY TIMES to end Obamacare with no success since its inception of being a law. This is a law that was voted on by The House and Senate, then signed into law by Obama. THEN.....reviewed and ok'd by our Supreme Court.

So why should Obama set a bad precedent with The House to compromise on a law that is legal? The GOP are acting like insolent little children here. The only positive that is coming out of this is the GOP looking pretty bad. Boehner has done an awful job reigning in his lunatics and it is frustrating the more centrist and liberal wings of the GOP. 2014 cannot come soon enough.

nice to see the usual suspects bickering like usual.....lol

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Shutdown And Facts. on 10/06/2013 19:57:08 MDT Print View

"2014 cannot come soon enough."

Why wait until 2014? The citizenry has the right to recall their representatives at any time, as was the case recently in Colorado. If a legislator can be recalled over a gun control issue, surely they can be recalled for taking the country down the tubes?

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Speechless (not really) on 10/06/2013 21:33:40 MDT Print View

" As I mentioned in the OP, the monuments should not be closed but the blame lies on our elected officials and a number of bureaucrats, not on the rank-and-file officers."

Ian,
The various police and Park Service employees involved are not doing their duty to the Constitution, but rather to their immediate superiors who are ordering them to act against the interest of the public not in its interest. There is no public interest in closing the open air war memorials, or the ocean south of Florida. There is no legitimacy to these enforcements and the police should have refused the orders. An argument could be made that most Nazis were "just following orders", but I would disagree with that, too. My whole point was that, in my opinion, the park ranger should have stood up and said no. Right is right, wrong is wrong. The excuse will always be the same for those who "are just following orders". Again...it's just my personal opinion that was offered.

Jennifer,
We see eye to eye on the fact that having the parks and memorials closed is a bad thing, correct? It's just that we don't agree on who is responsible. No big deal. As Obi Wan Kenobi said, "...you'll find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on a certain point of view". I don't think any article, source or video will change your mind on my point of view at this point, and vise versa. LOL Let's just agree to disagree and move on, shall we? Everyone on BPL loves the outdoors and our National Parks, or we would not be on BPL in the first place. I believe that on this particular issue we have more in common than not. What has been done is unnecessary and unconscionable. I hope you'd agree with that.


Now...did everyone hear that the government has closed the ocean:

http://www.ijreview.com/2013/10/84485-govt-tries-close-ocean-due-shutdown/


Families are throwing cones off blocked roads at Badlands National Park:

http://twitchy.com/2013/10/06/families-throw-off-the-cones-at-badlands-national-park-in-south-dakota/

Lake Mead property owners were forced out:

http://www.ktnv.com/news/local/Lake-Mead-Property-Owners-Forced-Out-Until-Gov-Shutdown-Ends-226557661.html?lc=Smart

And that angry vets are planning a Million Vet March on Washington:

http://freepatriot.org/2013/10/06/million-vet-march-organized-dc-vets-standing-obama-tyranny-memorials/

Edited by bigfoot2 on 10/06/2013 21:35:09 MDT.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Speechless (not really) on 10/06/2013 21:48:05 MDT Print View

"Not to add flame to this fire, but how are their actions not treasonous?? The overthrow of a duly elected government by a small group of tyrants who are unhappy about a law that was found constitutional......if this were a third world country, or France, how would we react to this?"

Jennifer,
Read the link below to find out why I believe Obamacare is unconstitutional. And as for your definition of treasonous, I dissagree mightily with it. Don't get me started on who I believe is a traitor in government (Obama, most of the Congress and Senate--BOTH parties, John Kerry for signing the UN Small Arms Treaty, etc). Like I said before, your idea of a tyrant and mine will never be the same.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/constitution/item/16620-sen-mike-lee-supreme-court-obamacare-ruling-a-lawless-act

Matt

Ian Van Halen
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Speechless (not really) on 10/06/2013 22:07:38 MDT Print View

Well it was only a matter of time until a park ranger closing a monument would be compared to a Nazi soldier committing genocide. Reasonable argument.

I'm sure I'll regret asking this but since the Constitution is an actual document and not a nebulous concept, how exactly are these rangers in violation of their duty? If you could cite the section which addresses the closing of a monument I'd certainly be willing to read it.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Speechless (not really) on 10/06/2013 22:38:44 MDT Print View

I knew the Nazi comparison would elicit this response. The point I was trying to make is that they swore an oath to the Constitution, not to any one person or party. I was trying to say that that is how tyranny starts and is perpetuated. This is OUR land, OUR National Parks, OUR monuments, not the governments. They work for US, not the other way around. Our elected representatives have forgotten that. I misspoke when I said they violated their oath to uphold the Constitution, but my intent was that it was immoral. Again, my opinion. Everyone, I believe, has a right to disobey unlawful or immoral orders they do not agree with. That is what I believe they should have done.
One of the causes of the American Revolution was the seizure and forfeiture of American ships, * L*A*ND*, goods, and supplies, belonging to the American colonists, along with the seizure of American timber for the Royal Navy, all in violation of the people’s natural right to their property and to the fruits of their labor. The final spark of the Revolution was the attempt by the government to seize powder and cannon stores at Concord.

I was also trying to get us back on the topic of the OP and diffuse some of the hostility going on, but that has totally been side stepped.

M

Ian Van Halen
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Speechless (not really) on 10/06/2013 23:09:00 MDT Print View

"I misspoke when I said they violated their oath to uphold the Constitution, but my intent was that it was immoral. "

I'm fine with that. I think it's pretty crappy that these monuments have been shut down but I'm unfamiliar with the CFR which regulates these things. I suspect that there isn't one and this is an internal policy which has trickled down from the very top. I very much suspect that the administration is using this to add drama to the scenario despite what his fans and their cult like admiration will admit. We are in agreement; these monuments are the property of the people.

The reality for that poor ranger who has been put in this unbelievably lousy situation is that if she were to get fired from the NPS for refusing an order, her future with law enforcement and probably public service in general is over. I'm certainly not going to follow an order to round up political dissidents or ethnic groups but I wouldn't flush my career down the toilet over a monument closure if I was in her situation. It's pretty easy to criticize it from a Lazy-Boy but quite another when you have to stand in her shoes and figure out how to pay rent and buy school clothes for your kids. Not the fight I would take on and not ashamed to admit it.

I can identify with her situation on a number of levels so I admit and apologize for overreacting. This really hits home for me and will admit it's personal.

See you on the high ground Matt.

spelt the enigmatic
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
This is OUR land on 10/07/2013 07:29:25 MDT Print View

Careful who you paraphrase. Woody Guthrie was a filthy socialist.

Lyan Jordan
(redmonk)

Locale: Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem
Speechless (not really) on 10/07/2013 09:45:36 MDT Print View

*yawn*

Who will be the first to step up and give up on their career, go picket DC to have the parks opened, then find a career in a new field when it is over ?

Anybody offering jobs for law enforcement that "does the right thing" ?

Must be nice to only lose a vacation over the shutdown.


Most of us affected don't have loans that take back pay at some point in the future. Houses, transportation, and education what people are losing.

Sorry you couldn't take a vacation.

Edited by redmonk on 10/07/2013 09:58:04 MDT.

Ken Helwig
(kennyhel77) - MLife

Locale: Scotts Valley CA via San Jose, CA
Re: This is OUR land on 10/07/2013 15:59:14 MDT Print View

Nice on Spelt....Woodie Guthery was an amazing person

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Speechless (not really) on 10/07/2013 16:45:17 MDT Print View

Haven't verified this info, but AMBER ALERT WEBSITE SHUT DOWN,

MICHELLE'S 'LET'S MOVE' STAYS UP???

WTF??? Is it just me, or is that really messed up?

M

spelt the enigmatic
(spelt) - F

Locale: SW/C PA
Re: Speechless (not really) on 10/07/2013 17:08:29 MDT Print View

You really couldn't take ten seconds to check.

http://www.amberalert.gov/

doug thomas
(sparky52804) - MLife

Locale: Eastern Iowa
Re: Speechless (not really) on 10/07/2013 17:26:40 MDT Print View

It was shut down, but was put back up after complaints.

doug thomas
(sparky52804) - MLife

Locale: Eastern Iowa
Any common sense? on 10/07/2013 17:36:07 MDT Print View

My big problem with this shutdown mess, is the way they are going about it. Shutting down open air attractions, such as the WW2 memorial, parts or the Blue Ridge Parkway, that isolate entire towns, heck they even closed the Grand Canyon. I just can't understand closing something that is cheaper to leave open, or taking down a website that costs more to shut down than it would to just install a banner saying that there would be no more updates until further notice. I just don't get it.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Any common sense? on 10/07/2013 18:27:02 MDT Print View

"I just don't get it."

I do. Both sides are acting like petulant children. Ignorant, petulant children.

'Tis sad that this is what passes for 'The Greatest Country on Earth's' government.

U-S-A! U-S-A!

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Speechless (not really) on 10/07/2013 18:58:12 MDT Print View

"You really couldn't take ten seconds to check.

http://www.amberalert.gov/"

Sorry...been working,spelt ! . Thanks!

Now...how do you think they'd react if we all just did not follow along and went anyway? How about an "Occupy Yellowstone", or what if 1000 hikers just descended on Mt. Rainer all at once?

M

Edited by bigfoot2 on 10/07/2013 19:00:53 MDT.

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: It's always somebody else's fault on 10/07/2013 19:56:00 MDT Print View

"I know Obama is the smartest person on the planet. But he sure is a neophyte when it comes getting anything done within a divided government.

Must he have complete total power to get anything done?"

Good point - Reagan and Tip O'Neal compromised making social security fiscally sound. Clinton and Gnewt compromised eliminating the deficit.

But, it seems like the "Tea Partyiers" have to accept a lot of blame for this, they have no desire to compromise, they just want to bring Obama down.

NPR has been talking about this. There are 30 representatives in solid districts pushing the shut down. Then there are a bunch more republicans that have to go along or Grover Norquist/Karl Rove will go after them and get them "primaried". Together they make a majority of Republicans, so Bohener won't allow a Continuing Resolution without Obamacare repeal to be voted on.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Any common sense? on 10/07/2013 20:03:11 MDT Print View

"'Tis sad that this is what passes for 'The Greatest Country on Earth's' government."

Uh, are you sure you didn't mean "The Greatest Show on Earth"? You have to admit they're closer to a circus than a government. On the other hand, they are definitely making a stong case for American Exceptionalism. ;0)

jerry adams
(retiredjerry) - MLife

Locale: Oregon and Washington
Re: Re: It's always somebody else's fault on 10/07/2013 20:08:13 MDT Print View

The other historical perspective is that conservatives tried to prevent social security, medicare, and medicade when they were being voted on and implemented, just like they are now with Obamacare.

Since SS was implemented in 1930s, liberals have tried to expand medical care to all people, which Obamacare has finally done.

Conservatives have tried to eliminate or at least reduce SS/Medicare/Medicade with little success.

So now with Obamacare being implemented, the only choice of conservatives is suicide. I can see why they have no "end game strategy" in this shut down.

Ken Miller
(Powderpiggy) - F

Locale: Colorado
SS on 10/08/2013 10:36:43 MDT Print View

Most of the social programs of FDR's era are now well beyond their original intentions. I think SS was to never exceed 1.5% of an individual's earnings. It's not over 15% when you consider the employers contribution.

Makes you wonder about the "bending the cost curve", "keep your doctor" and "keep your insurance" promises. Of course when you put in the context of "we must pass the bill to know what's in it", I guess it doesn't matter.

And Jerry, I will bet you a 2 person portion of the best dehydrated beef stroganoff ever made that your out of pocket expenses will be much higher.