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Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Is it me or is it weird on 10/04/2013 19:57:32 MDT Print View

"I guess he must play Grand Theft Auto after hours."

Beats playing it for real on the floor of The House of Representatives.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
All Good. on 10/04/2013 21:32:40 MDT Print View

"While I meant the things I said, I said them in a way I regret.

Have a nice weekend everyone."

All cool, Ian :)

cat

Matt

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Right. It's all Obama's fault. on 10/06/2013 09:34:31 MDT Print View

"And that is exactly why the Obama Administration is closing the parks and monuments"

FYI, since you are so up on your middle school civics classes, you should realize that funding is not provided by the administration but rather by Congress. The Obama administration shut nothing down...the House of Representatives did by not funding the government. Obama has had nothing whatsoever to do with this...other than to reiterate that he wouldn't negotiate his duly passed, confirmed by the Supreme Court, health insurance reform bill while under threat.

And what's with the the capital letters on everything?? I don't believe you passed any grammar classes in grade school......

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
The park rangers WERE there to make sure the vets got in... on 10/06/2013 09:38:37 MDT Print View

See the NBC news report:
http://www.nbcwashington.com/news/local/Congressman-Confronts-Park-Ranger-Over-Closed-WWII-Memorial-226209781.html

Here's the appropriate line from the piece:
"The Park Service has been allowing World War II vets who have traveled from all over the country to enter the memorial, even though it's closed during the government shutdown; the rangers say they are exercising their First Amendment rights as they let the veterans in.

But they are keeping the rest of the public out of the facility, which is officially closed. And that did not sit well with the congressman, reported News4's Mark Segraves, who witnessed the confrontation."

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Civility? on 10/06/2013 09:47:07 MDT Print View

"And what's with the the capital letters on everything?? I don't believe you passed any grammar classes in grade school......"

^^^^
That is not necessary nor is it going to help anything. Edit, maybe?


Editing my own, as it did not help a thing either...
Can we not discuss, even heatedly, without personal attacks?

When I lived in a small redneck community in the foothills and would get into discussions with people about,say, the death penalty, gay rights, immigration etc. I would often be personally attacked for being a " hippy" or a " damn liberal". I would try and keep the discussion to the topic at hand, but some felt they had the right to go straight to name calling. They would look at each other and scoff and agree that it was ok to do that.
I see the same thing happening here, on both sides.
If someone holds a view that is contrary to ours, even absurd in our opinion, that still does not give us the right to attack one personally.
When we do that we are the ones responsible for degenerating a discussion.

Edited by Kat_P on 10/06/2013 10:35:23 MDT.

Ken Thompson
(kthompson) - MLife

Locale: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Re: The park rangers WERE there to make sure the vets got in... on 10/06/2013 09:52:57 MDT Print View

Would have been fantastic if the ranger recognized the old fart and gave him what for while the cameras were going. Put the blame on him, where it belongs.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Re: The park rangers WERE there to make sure the vets got in... on 10/06/2013 13:20:42 MDT Print View

The debate of Constitutional Republic vs Representative Democracy vs Democracy is silly. Compared to biological classification, this is like defining the family, genus, and species of our government. They all apply. It's just an attempt to derail a conversation and take focus of the question I presented Matt.

He hasn't been in the shoes of that park ranger, he has not been forced to work for the government for free, but seems compelled to say that her behavior is shameful for doing her sworn duty and enforcing the law. There is no law enforcement officer who personally agrees with every law on the books they are sworn to enforce (including me).

If the laws are unconstitutional, then there is a means to challenge them in the courts.

If the law is deemed to be constitutional and still don't like it? Petition your congressman and senators to change it.

Don't want to put forth the effort and just want to complain for complaining's sake? Knock yourself out but don't expect to be taken seriously.

As far as civility goes....

I can only speak for myself. I've already acknowledged that while I meant everything I said, I could have delivered my message in a more constructive manner and regret one of my responses. I appreciate the PMs I received following that; I have no problem being held accountable and appreciate it when other members I respect rope me back in when I step out of line.

With that being said, respect delivered often times equals respect received. There's a distinction between an heated debate and trolling. It's also important to note that this conversation isn't happening in a vacuum. In fairly recent history, Matthew had some of his comments removed by the moderators on another thread because he was making misogynistic comments towards another forum member. I personally sent him a PM and asked for him to remove the comments; he refused. To my knowledge, he's yet to apologize for his horrible comments.

So yes, regardless of how the agitators behave, we should all be civil but the rules need to apply for all.

It should go without saying that I respect Katharina and her input. Just a difference of opinion.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 10/06/2013 13:25:51 MDT.

Katharina ....
(Kat_P) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Coast
Agreed on 10/06/2013 13:52:07 MDT Print View

"
So yes, regardless of how the agitators behave, we should all be civil but the rules need to apply for all. "


Absolutely. I agree Ian.

When Matthew gets personal, which he does, there are plenty of people that call him on it. When the liberal side gets personal, the general climate is that it is ok. That is why I seem to intervene in a lop sided manner.

Edited by Kat_P on 10/06/2013 13:54:47 MDT.

Ken Miller
(Powderpiggy)

Locale: Colorado
It's always somebody else's fault on 10/06/2013 14:08:24 MDT Print View

Why is that Obama and his supporters always blame someone else. For the first 3 years it was Bush & Cheney, now it's Congress.
,
I know Obama is the smartest person on the planet. But he sure is a neophyte when it comes getting anything done within a divided government.

Must he have complete total power to get anything done?

I mean we all know Bush is an ignorant, war mongering, idiot. He was however able to get multiple bi-partisan legislation passed through both houses.

Obama gets on his helicopter, flies to a grade school, lectures the class on how he's a Washington outsider, tells everyone how screwed things are, blames the Republicans, gets back on helicopter and heads to the golf course.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: It's always somebody else's fault on 10/06/2013 14:50:17 MDT Print View

I'm all for universal healthcare if we can achieve it in a sustainable way but I'm not a supporter of ACA as written. I hope that the aspects of it I object to will be fixed in time.

The reason I mention that is even though I wouldn't have signed off on ACA, the fact remains that this body of law was appropriately passed and was found to be constitutional by the Supremes.

Despite the fact that the GOP only holds the House of Representatives, they seem oblivious to the fact that they aren't in a position to demand terms to anyone right now. If they were smart, they'd start working with the DNC to remove the job killing aspects of the ACA, which admittedly will be very difficult and take several years. Instead they've taken a stance that even though they are in the minority and fractured as a political party, that if they don't get their way they'll shut the government down.

I agree with your opinions of Obama and the Dems but just wanted to state that the GOP isn't blameless.

Edited by IDBLOOM on 10/06/2013 14:51:21 MDT.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Agreed on 10/06/2013 15:02:24 MDT Print View

"That is why I seem to intervene in a lop sided manner."

Ok I see your point.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Shutdown And Facts. on 10/06/2013 16:23:11 MDT Print View

"FYI, since you are so up on your middle school civics classes, you should realize that funding is not provided by the administration but rather by Congress. The Obama administration shut nothing down"

(Sigh)...again, Jennifer, you are dead wrong. Congress has the power of the purse, and they chose to fund the entire government, except Obamacare. That is their constitutional prerogative. Obama and the Democrats shut down the government because they wanted all of it passed, including Obamacare.

This is why we have a separation of powers. Congress funded the entire government but Obamacare. So Obama and the Democrats chose to shut down the government. During a shutdown of government, it is still true that Congress holds the purse strings, but THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH (that would be the PRESIDENT...in case you can't follow my 4th grade civics lesson here, or the words i'm using are to big to understand), has SOLE, I'll say that again...S O L E, discretionary powers over what is deemed essential and non-essential. Basically, Obama DID shut down the parks and monuments just to make it harder on the American people and to assert his "power".
Obama claims that he can’t avoid shutting down public sites and monuments,even though war memorials were in fact kept open during the 1995/1996 government shutdowns. Please keep in mind these are open air monuments that are open to the public 24/7, and cost more to close than to just leave open. The administration’s decision to barricade (BARRYcade?) the Lincoln Memorial marks the first time in its history the memorial has been totally off limits to visitors during a shutdown.

The administration has also said no to efforts by non-governmental groups to maintain access to public sites. The American people are currently paying for eight mounted cops to keep people out of the World War II memorial. That is frikkin' unbelievable to me!

Matt

PS--I don't believe I was "getting personal" with anyone on here, just stating my opinions and beliefs on the subject. By the way, Ian...I would love for people to remember my conduct in the other thread where I was accused of "misogynistic comments", but it was me, in reality, who kept things from getting personal and was actually the victim of Misandry by a certain man-hating individual here. I state my opinion, which differs from many on here, and am routinely personally attacked for it with character and intelligence jokes and innuendo (Teabagger/Teabilly...remember?). I responded with courtesy, dignity and respect. Period. A few people came to my defense, but like I said before, my views are vastly outnumbered here on BPL. Guess it's a Democracy, huh?

Edited by bigfoot2 on 10/06/2013 16:38:43 MDT.

Ian B.
(IDBLOOM) - MLife

Locale: PNW
Re: Shutdown And Facts. on 10/06/2013 17:12:40 MDT Print View

Matt,

I'm basically a salary employee for the government. My end of shift, since the day I was hired, has always been TBD/needs of the service. I typically work 50 hours a week on salary but it's not uncommon for me to work far more than that. I feel that my pay and benefits (except for now) are fair for my effort and expertise for what I do so I'm not complaining. Since I'm an essential employee, I still show up to work every day unpaid. Starting October 1st, I've donated 40 unpaid hours. I'll probably get reimbursed for it at some point in the future but the fact remains that I don't know if it will be three weeks or three months until I see another paycheck.

The park ranger in this story is in the same exact boat as me. Your quote:

"I disagree about the ranger, too. They should all be ashamed of themselves and should have just said "...no! I will not do that to our heroes. Come do it yourself"."

As I said before, you've never been in this position. I was in the military when we went through the last boondoggle in 1995 so I can speak from personal experience from both the military and civilian side of things. What the civilian employees are suffering through now is very different than what I experienced as a soldier in 1995.

So it's very apparent to me when I read your comment above that you are suggesting this park ranger to make a professional sacrifice that you've never had to make for yourself.

And as has been mentioned several times by reputable sources, the veterans had access to the monument. As I mentioned in the OP, the monuments should not be closed but the blame lies on our elected officials and a number of bureaucrats, not on the rank-and-file officers.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Civility. on 10/06/2013 17:20:52 MDT Print View

Ian...good points. I still disagree, but good points, well stated, nonetheless.

And also, thank you, Jennifer, for answering my question about the civilians vs. veterans being let in. Like I said before, I was not aware of the Park Service doing that for them. The source, NBC, is questionable in my opinion, but thanks, anyway.


Matt

Edited by bigfoot2 on 10/06/2013 17:24:09 MDT.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Shutdown And Facts. on 10/06/2013 17:30:30 MDT Print View

"Congress has the power of the purse, and they chose to fund the entire government, except Obamacare. That is their constitutional prerogative. Obama and the Democrats shut down the government because they wanted all of it passed, including Obamacare."

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm, no.

You're being intellectually dishonest by still proclaiming that it's Obama and the Dems who shut down government. You're not even correct in what you've written above.

Congress encompasses both the House and Senate. Congress did not choose to fund the entire government except the ACA. Only the House put forth that position. The Senate did not agree. That's why we have a stalemate. Obama didn't shut down the government - he hasn't been passed a bill to sign or veto. If he did get a bill, and he vetoed it, then you could accuse him of shutting down the government. That hasn't happened.

You and others who want to blame this on the Dems are, in effect, saying that the Senate should just do whatever the House wants them to do, and if they don't, they're at fault (and the Prez for good measure). But the Senate would be shirking their constitutional duty and prerogative if they were to do that. You can't have it both ways.

Therefore, you can't simply blame the Dems, and you can't blame the Prez, you can only blame Congress as a whole, as that's where things are held up at the moment because of the two intransigent bodies.

That's if you want to be intellectually honest about the whole thing.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Speechless (not really) on 10/06/2013 18:17:57 MDT Print View

Nope, sorry, Doug. I disagree with you. Also, don't assume i'm a Republican, you'd be wrong.
By the way, at this point, I am really sick of BOTH parties. I think we all need to bring back the Bull Moose Party.

Matt

bull moose party

Edited by bigfoot2 on 10/06/2013 18:22:02 MDT.

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Speechless (not really) on 10/06/2013 18:35:02 MDT Print View

I have no doubt you disagree with me, doesn't make me wrong though.

And I've never assumed you're a Republican, nor did I say so in my post, so not sure where that came from. In fact you've said before that you're not a Republican, and while I'm old, I still have a memory.

Matthew Perry
(bigfoot2) - F

Locale: Oregon
Speechless (not really) on 10/06/2013 18:38:20 MDT Print View

"And as has been mentioned several times by reputable sources, the veterans had access to the monument. As I mentioned in the OP, the monuments should not be closed but the blame lies on our elected officials and a number of bureaucrats, not on the rank-and-file officers."

Like I said before, I question the source of the contrary story. I do not believe the Vets were let in. That is a lie. They had access only after they took it upon themselves to force their way in. Basically, they were not stopped. That is being spun into "had access".
I have in the past been a volunteer for Honor Flight (http://www.honorflight.org/), many Honor Flight vets were there that day. I called my contacts at Honor Flight and was given a much different story than the one from NBC that Jennifer posted above.

This is the truth as I understand it:

http://dailycaller.com/2013/10/01/obama-admin-knew-about-wwii-veterans-request-and-rejected-it/

The simple fact is, it does not need to be this way, and should not. The point to be made here is that the government (democrat Senate/Republican House/Democratic Executive Branch) is to blame. It's just the simple fact that they CAN do this just to show their power over us little people, and to inflict as much hurt as they can.

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: Re: Shutdown And Facts. on 10/06/2013 18:47:03 MDT Print View

Matt,

Using facts and not tea party talking points, can you please explain to me (and to Doug, who was spot on in his description of our current predicament) how this is the fault of the Democrats and Barak Obama?

The fact is that there is a majority of both houses, the Democratically controlled Senate as well as the Republican controlled House, to pass a clean funding bill. This bill would fund the government as agreed upon by the actual majority of the country.

The minority party lost the election, the tea party lost several elections, and Mitt Romney, who campaigned on the repeal of the ACA, lost the election. John Boehner emphatically states he will abide by the Hastert rule, which means he will not bring a measure to a vote if it does not have the backing of the majority of the GOP. So we now have a PIECE of the minority who want to literally hold this country hostage if their demands are not met.

They lost the election. They need to accept that they lost and move on...then actually work on making the admittedly imperfect ACA better.

Not to add flame to this fire, but how are their actions not treasonous?? The overthrow of a duly elected government by a small group of tyrants who are unhappy about a law that was found constitutional......if this were a third world country, or France, how would we react to this?

Jennifer Mitol
(Jenmitol) - M

Locale: In my dreams....
Re: Re: Re: Shutdown And Facts. on 10/06/2013 19:03:27 MDT Print View

I also find it very interesting that the story "the way you see it" is nothing but an interview with a GOP congressman, rather than the word of an impartial observer (the guy is a local tv reporter from dc, who I'm sure youll take issue with) and an interview with some of the park rangers themselves.